Aquaman [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Mordar

2018-12-24, 02:18 PM

Since I don't see it (apologies if I missed it), here's a thread on the newly released Aquaman movie.

Spoiler free for now...

I thought it was fine. Not as good as Wonder Woman (at least not as good as WW once Diana is an adult...hated the childhood sequence). Better than the rest of the recent DC fare.

Best parts:

Visuals - some very nice scenics, almost throughout the picture. Worth seeing on the big screen.
Costumes - Real superhero costumes! None of this wearing-black-leather-instead-of-blue-spandex because we're embarrassed about super heros crap!
Undersea Characters - Several of the undersea critters we see look great...particularly the Trench (we see them in the trailer, so not a spoiler!).

It seemed to run a little long, had some plot holes and lacked conviction at times. And (personal opinion) no movie is ever made better by inclusion of Willem Dafoe.

Worth seeing on the big screen!

- M

Pheldagriff

2018-12-24, 05:28 PM

the film is a cookie-cutter build of the standard origin movie. at times it drags quite a bit. it feels like a b-movie even if doesn't look like one. aside from the visuals, which are very cgi-heavy (I didn't mind) the movie brings nothing new to the table. sometimes the music felt too much on the nose.

it is one of the better DCEU movies (although it seems as the movie wants you to forget that it is a part of it) but that doesn't say much as the other films aren't that good.
easily skipable

Olinser

2018-12-24, 05:48 PM

I quite enjoyed it. Definitely 2nd best DC movie that they've made (behind only Wonder Woman), and quite entertaining, although the plot has some definite holes, like

OK, so Ocean Master can't kill Mera because the other king point blank tells him he'll withdraw his army. So he goes and gives weapons to Black Manta and tells him to kill Aquaman and Mera. OK, no problems there.

Then he SENDS ATLANTEAN TROOPS WITH HIM, that try to shoot Mera themselves. I mean come on writers. The entire point of sending Black Manta was plausible deniability.

The single biggest mistake they made was that assault on the ears and good taste that was that ludicrous rap remix of Africa. YOU CAN'T DO THAT TO TOTO YOU BASTARDS. :smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfurious::smallfu rious::smallfurious:

Still I'd give it an 8 out of 10, plot is a bit formulaic and they kind of gloss over the whole 'hey we were just having a war at the end and..... now we're not', but worth watching.

Zmeoaice

2018-12-24, 05:52 PM

Mechalich

2018-12-24, 08:28 PM

I thought this movie was great fun and it has some great visuals, and the ability of James Wan to solve the whole 'underwater' problem inherent in making an Aquaman movie is notable, but the plot is shallow, predictable, and has a number of gaping holes. Also, for a movie that spends an immense amount of time, on worldbuilding, with several sequences that probably should have been cut completely, there are some core issues regarding the undersea world that really muddle the film. Notably, how powerful is the army of Atlantis, really, and if it is so powerful, why haven't they done something about their issues with the surface previously?

I mean, Orm's got a point about the pollution and climate change bits that serve as his motives for launching a war and poor Aquaman's got nothing in terms of answers to them, but at the same time, you'd think a guy who can launch massive tidal waves and sink every military vessel on the planet at a stroke might try, I don't know, negotiating?

Still I'd give it an 8 out of 10, plot is a bit formulaic and they kind of gloss over the whole 'hey we were just having a war at the end and..... now we're not', but worth watching.

As to that, I think it's important to recognize that in combat in an aquatic environment, there's nowhere to run - water extends in every direction. Orm should run the minute the Trench shows up, the numerical advantage they provide is decisive, but there's nowhere for him to go. He's got two options: fight to the last and die, or surrender, and not only is he too proud to do that, his supporters are equally unwilling to surrender or flee while their king demands they fight.

Aquaman could have simply let the Trench obliterate the three kingdom military attacking the Brine, but that would have been a massacre of unbelievable proportions. By contrast, if he challenges Orm again he provides everyone with the excuse to stand down. That's why Mera tells him that there are too many casualties and he has to defeat Orm to make it stop.

This all hinges on Orm's complete refusal to negotiate anything, ever, which is actually well-established in the film, but I feel it's not entirely convincing because Patrick Wilson's portrayal of the character is just sympathetic enough to make this hard to buy. He's a villain, sure, but he's not raving or irrational at any point. He's also not given any sort of 'fight to the bitter end' line that would help anchor what's actually happening. So the end result is a mess.

Jayngfet

2018-12-24, 08:37 PM

"Better than the average DCEU movie" isn't enough to get me to see it. And I don't like Aquajason, they were trying too hard to make him seem all badass that it's impossible to take him seriously.

I shall see Bumblebee instead, which seems like a far better apology for a trashy franchise.

I never saw Justice League. Jason Momoa is pretty good here though. He has a great relationship with his dad, takes selfies with fans, and kicks ass so hard normal henchmen tend to cower in the corner rather than actually fight him. The first half of the film makes it clear that being Aquaman kicks ass and is fun.

On the subject of the movie itself I like that while regular human henchmen were pretty disposable they had actually good henchmen who could fight the hero on even terms despite still being nameless mooks. It's nice seeing henchmen actually use all of their fancy supervillain equipment properly and actually injure a hero.

Black Manta was really cool. Him Jailbreaking his armor and rebuilding it was nice. I fully expect him and Jessie Eisenberg to do a Legion of Doom at some point, or else have him in Suicide Squad 2.

Darth Ultron

2018-12-24, 09:32 PM

It was an OK movie. Just below Wonder Woman. But really, what can they do with Aquaman....he is just not that great of a character.

Visually the movie is great....but maybe they over lit Atlantis a bit too much

The movie dose not do the best job story wise explaining the time frame. So Aquaman was born 20 years ago? So he is 20? Odd he looks a bit more like 40.

And the secret trident fighting done by teacher Willian Defoe don't really seem to be enough. Weapon training takes a long time....

They are way to vague with Aquaman's powers. Like at the start he picks up a submarine and ''swims" it to the surface. So...Aquaman can lift 6,000 tons? And even more...Aquaman can 'swim thrust' with enough force to lift 6,000 tons? And, of course, you can't just ''lift'' something like a ship...even if you can lift that much weight. And...even If you did ''super hero lift" a submarine to the surface...well...it would just sink right back down right? Because it's tanks would be full of water and the sub would have negative buoyancy. Unless Aquaman..somehow..blew the ballast tanks when he picked up the sub.

Of course the Pirate Goon problem is...if Aquaman can lift 6,000 tons...or even one ton...he should of had a much easier time with the pirates.

The idea that Atlantis and all the other underwater stuff worldwide has been hidden from the world forever....is a bit much to take.

Of course, Aquaman never uses his ''6,000 ton strength" ever again in the movie.

I'm no expert on undersea people...but it seems like being in the Desert should be a bit more harmful to them. Really, the desert is harmful to humans....

Aquaman can talk to all the animals...but oddly does not talk to all the sea mounts. THAT would have been a nice thing to add to the ending: have all the mounts bump off all the riders.

Jayngfet

2018-12-24, 09:46 PM

Aquaman does have an easy time with the goons. He throws them into things, picks them up like ragdolls, and is generally in no danger.

Mechalich

2018-12-24, 11:14 PM

Aquaman can talk to all the animals...but oddly does not talk to all the sea mounts. THAT would have been a nice thing to add to the ending: have all the mounts bump off all the riders.

Um, that actually totally happens. He does his big communication call and all the sharks buck their knights and start eating them. Admittedly, it happens blink-and-you'll-miss-it fast, because a huge horde of sea life sweeps through immediately thereafter, but he does do that.

Lissandragaren3

2018-12-24, 11:35 PM

ben-zayb

2018-12-25, 12:19 AM

I had a blast watching this movie! I liked it the same way I did Avatar, which means I was able to easily look past the swiss-cheese by-the-numbers plot and the enjoyment is mostly derived from the spectacular visual experience.

Atlantis really felt like its own unique world, like Pandora, and scenes showing the other kingdoms were streamlined enough to just give us a feel of their identity and aesthetics without dragging the film's pace down.

Underwater 3D brawl and warfare are simply awesome. One of the things I really appreciate about comic book adaptations is the potential for fresh concepts of fight scenes that you don't get with bog standard non-fantasy blockbusters. As an aside, that's why I can't not like the Ant-Man movies despite their other issues.
This maybe a negative for some people, but I really like how they skipped the whole cliche of "back and forth upper-hand swinging, as if the protag could lose" in the climactic fight. Aquaman already overcame the odds and got the superweapon just before the showdown begins, so the final act is just a feel-good big-damn-heroes set-piece where a DCthulhu-riding, McGuffin-wielding Aquaman nearly easily whooped the villain's poop deck.
I honestly think we could leave most, if not the whole, Black Manta stuff for the sequel. Maybe just include the initial scene to show Aquaman being all powerful and badass, and to show the origin of BM's motivation for revenge. Plenty of ways to write how he could acquire Atlantean tech on the sequel.

That said, I appreciate how the silly-looking headpiece was justified.

Did James Wan simply not give a damn about continuity with Justice League's Atlantean motherbox scene? A lot of what was established in this movie simply goes against that scene. Wait, is DCEU even a thing anymore? This movie is solidly stand-alone with a grand total of IIRC just one reference to another IP, and doesn't need you to plow through a dozen or so movies for callbacks, or to understand what's going on.

By the way, is it just me or are some scenes and/or visuals reminiscent of Thor or Black Panther? Maybe most of those aren't deliberate, but there is at least one that's hard to think isn't shown on purpose to look like something from Thor.

On the subject of the movie itself I like that while regular human henchmen were pretty disposable they had actually good henchmen who could fight the hero on even terms despite still being nameless mooks. It's nice seeing henchmen actually use all of their fancy supervillain equipment properly and actually injure a hero.It's one of the things I really appreciated in this film. They initially show just how far superior Aquaman is compared to human BBEG, mooks, and their weapons, then later on you see how Atlanetean mooks fare and how their (seemingly) standard-issue Atlantean steel easily injures Aquaman.

Visually the movie is great....but maybe they over lit Atlantis a bit too muchI'm pretty sure that was explained to not really be the case...and that we are viewing the normally pitch black depths of Atlantis the same way Atlantean do, which has evolved over time to be what in D&D term is a combination of True Seeing and Lifesense (lifeforms have varying levels of illumination).
And the secret trident fighting done by teacher Willian Defoe don't really seem to be enough. Weapon training takes a long time....It went farther than that to me: I was able to deeply immerse myself in the movie despite all the gaping plot issues and some cringy attempts at badassery and humor, except in scenes where this single thing is featured.I'm just mentally incapable of suspending disbelief whenever I see movies trying to pass of weapon-twirling a la propeller as though it was something badass and threatening. It just... it just always comes off as silly to me.

JoshL

2018-12-25, 12:24 AM

And (personal opinion) no movie is ever made better by inclusion of Willem Dafoe.

Shadow of the Vampire. Opinions are of course opinions, but watch that and tell me he doesn't make it. Last Temptation of Christ and Platoon are good follow-ups.

Mechalich

2018-12-25, 01:36 AM

Did James Wan simply not give a damn about continuity with Justice League's Atlantean motherbox scene? A lot of what was established in this movie simply goes against that scene. Wait, is DCEU even a thing anymore? This movie is solidly stand-alone with a grand total of IIRC just one reference to another IP, and doesn't need you to plow through a dozen or so movies for callbacks, or to understand what's going on.

If I recall correctly, Steppenwolf attacked an underwater kingdom where Mera was present. Presumably the implication is that the Motherbox was in Xebel, not Atlantis, which I believe preserves continuity for now, since we never actually see Xebel in this film. Or it could have been kept in some other specialized location outside of Atlantis - like that conference platform where the two kings initially meet up.

Mera does directly reference Aquaman fighting Steppenwolf, for like one line, so this film is technically within continuity, but it's clearly a fairly loose relationship.

Olinser

2018-12-25, 04:22 AM

If I recall correctly, Steppenwolf attacked an underwater kingdom where Mera was present. Presumably the implication is that the Motherbox was in Xebel, not Atlantis, which I believe preserves continuity for now, since we never actually see Xebel in this film. Or it could have been kept in some other specialized location outside of Atlantis - like that conference platform where the two kings initially meet up.

Mera does directly reference Aquaman fighting Steppenwolf, for like one line, so this film is technically within continuity, but it's clearly a fairly loose relationship.

Nothing about the film particularly violates continuity that I saw. We were never actually told exactly where the Atlanteans were keeping their Box - but it was very obviously NOT in the city itself. Steppenwolf didn't attack an underwater kingdom - it showed him attacking the shrine, we were never actually shown or told where it was located, but given that they were trying to keep it as secret as possible, you'd assume it was not located in any major city. As for Mera being there - the Box was resonating just like the Amazon box, so they sent her to investigate/guard it.

ben-zayb

2018-12-25, 05:12 AM

Another thing... Is this DC movie's Dr. Shin also the same guy who portrayed MCU's FBI Agent Woo earlier this year? That's some Brolin-level of CBM cross-studio appearance, and probably better because it's from Marvel to DC.

Nothing about the film particularly violates continuity that I saw. We were never actually told exactly where the Atlanteans were keeping their Box - but it was very obviously NOT in the city itself. Steppenwolf didn't attack an underwater kingdom - it showed him attacking the shrine, we were never actually shown or told where it was located, but given that they were trying to keep it as secret as possible, you'd assume it was not located in any major city. As for Mera being there - the Box was resonating just like the Amazon box, so they sent her to investigate/guard it.How about Arthur doing a 180° view on her mother from his teenage years to JL, then another 180° view from JL to current time? Or Mera creating an air pocket to facilitate speech?

To reiterate, Aquaman goes against what was previously shown in JL, but that obviously doesn't mean nonsatisfactory but technically plausible explanations can't be pulled from the poop deck.

lord_khaine

2018-12-25, 06:20 AM

I though the movie was awesome. The visuals were stunning, the sound great, and the humor spot on.
And it even managed to subvert expectations at key moments to leave me guessing at the plot.

Like the scene with the fans. Caught me off guard. But i found it hilarious how the evening progressed from "dont touch me"
To drunken brothers :P

Heck, it even manages to make his ability to speak with underwater lifeforms relevant.

The movie did leave me convinced Aquaman is now the most badass dc hero. Even if his costume is a little goofy.

Sapphire Guard

2018-12-25, 01:38 PM

Wow, tough crowd.

How about Arthur doing a 180° view on her mother from his teenage years to JL, then another 180° view from JL to current time? Or Mera creating an air pocket to facilitate speech?

Privacy? She does it in this movie once to keep out the lowborns.

Re Orm's plan

The whole point of the film is that he needs four clans of Atlantis behind him to legally invade the surface, it's not about force.

I'm fond of how his most important superpower is the 'talking to fish' one that's the butt of so many jokes.

lord_khaine

2018-12-25, 02:45 PM

How about Arthur doing a 180° view on her mother from his teenage years to JL, then another 180° view from JL to current time? Or Mera creating an air pocket to facilitate speech?

I dont actually recall him talking about his mother at all in the JL Movie.
And i dont recall him ever changing his stance on her. He always seems to love the idea of her.

Olinser

2018-12-25, 02:46 PM

Another thing... Is this DC movie's Dr. Shin also the same guy who portrayed MCU's FBI Agent Woo earlier this year? That's some Brolin-level of CBM cross-studio appearance, and probably better because it's from Marvel to DC.

How about Arthur doing a 180° view on her mother from his teenage years to JL, then another 180° view from JL to current time? Or Mera creating an air pocket to facilitate speech?

To reiterate, Aquaman goes against what was previously shown in JL, but that obviously doesn't mean nonsatisfactory but technically plausible explanations can't be pulled from the poop deck.

His attitude about his mother was a single throwaway line in response to a comment from somebody he's never met before. And shockingly, people's opinions don't necessarily stay static. It's not a continuity violation.

And the air pocket was covered explicitly in the Aquaman movie - keep other people from hearing them. Mera doesn't need the guards listening to her beg the bastard half-breed for help.

Zevox

2018-12-25, 05:58 PM

"Better than the average DCEU movie" isn't enough to get me to see it.
That's kind of where I'm at too. Wonder Woman got positive enough reactions out of people that I went to see it, and was glad that I did, since it was actually good. This one is sounding kind of borderline. The average reaction being "better than the other DC films, but not as good as Wonder Woman" is a definite step up compared to the norm, but is not sounding like nearly as ringing of an endorsement of it as "much better than the other DC films, go see it if you like superhero movies" was for WW.

lord_khaine

2018-12-25, 06:13 PM

Mechalich

2018-12-25, 07:32 PM

That's kind of where I'm at too. Wonder Woman got positive enough reactions out of people that I went to see it, and was glad that I did, since it was actually good. This one is sounding kind of borderline. The average reaction being "better than the other DC films, but not as good as Wonder Woman" is a definite step up compared to the norm, but is not sounding like nearly as ringing of an endorsement of it as "much better than the other DC films, go see it if you like superhero movies" was for WW.

Wonder Woman is a better film. Aquaman is a better spectacle.

If you were to rank movies by 'Most minutes of footage you really, really, want to see in IMAX' Aquaman is easily a top five movie of this year, up there with Avengers: Infinity War and Mission Impossible: Fallout. The latter is actually a particularly good comparison point. Sure Mission Impossible has characters and drama and a plot, but that's not why you watch that movie. You watch it to see Tom Cruise run, drive, hang from a helicopter, and jump out of a plane. Likewise you watch Aquaman to see shark cavalry charge a crab-man phalanx, a heroes swim through a piranha-zerg-rush using a flare as a shield, and two guys have a three-dimensional trident fight surrounded by a ring of lava while an octopus plays the drums.

So if you like, or are at least open to, dumb movies that function primarily as spectacle, then I'd say you should definitely see Aquaman (and honestly, this is one of the few films where the IMAX premium really is worth it), but if spectacle doesn't do it for you, then yeah, the movie's not worth your time.

CarpeGuitarrem

2018-12-26, 01:10 PM

Tyndmyr

2018-12-26, 05:26 PM

First off, see this film in 3d. It uses the tech heavily, what with fair bits of it taking place underwater, which I hope does not constitute a spoiler given the title. It's one of the few films where I've actually considered the technology to matter.

Secondly, the vibe of this movie is basically Wet Thor. The producers clearly learned at least a bit from Thor Ragnarok, and the translation/copying went better than most of DC's endeavors. It's either the top or second best DC film,with the other being Wonder Woman, obviously. Which it is largely depends on personal taste, but it's no Suicide Squad.

It's probably not the smartest movie of the year or anything, but it is fun, and that counts for a great deal.

Olinser

2018-12-26, 05:43 PM

CarpeGuitarrem

2018-12-26, 06:32 PM

My own take on the film was that it sometimes felt like a shallow take on Ragnarok and Guardians of the Galaxy that didn't land for me, but the underwater spectacle brought it up to "average MCU", so I'd say it comes off as "Thor 1 done a bit better".

Darth Ultron

2018-12-26, 08:30 PM

a shallow take

A shallow take :smile:

CarpeGuitarrem

2018-12-26, 09:52 PM

A shallow take :smile:
...I can't believe I did that.

Friv

2018-12-27, 01:30 AM

Wonder Woman is a better film. Aquaman is a better spectacle.

This was my takeaway. Aquaman is pretty dumb, but it is gloriously dumb, and everyone is having enough fun and everything is so flashy and cool that it doesn't much matter how dumb it is, it still works delightfully well.

Dienekes

2018-12-27, 10:00 AM

Awesome dumb spectacle pretty much covers it. Parts of this movie look beautiful. Wonderfully visualized the otherworldly and fascinating Atlantis and the various peoples.

That said, as a story it felt like a lot of stuff just happens with little set up or reason. Honestly I thought that if this was split into 2 movies and given time to explore and develop half the ideas in each it could have been amazing.

As it was my favorite moment to show how rushed the movie was that just took me out of the whole experience was how awkward a little girl just decides to give Meera Pinocchio. Why? So the leads can have an argument about Pinocchio. Now I’ve never been to Sicily. But I’m pretty sure handing out Pinocchio is not a customary greeting.

Was watching a kaiju rupture the earth and fight in a battle between proud warrior crabmen against the invading mermen riding monatrous seahorses awesome? Hell yeah it was.

Did it have any emotional impact for me? Not really. I didn’t know who any of these people were.

It reminded me in part of the Battle of Five Armies. Better in some ways (no Legolas and random girl crying about the pain of true love or whatever nonsense) but at least in Bo5A I knew and cares about the dwarves and Bard.

I knew nothing about the crabmen other than they were apparently brutish.

Tyndmyr

2018-12-27, 11:11 AM

This was my takeaway. Aquaman is pretty dumb, but it is gloriously dumb, and everyone is having enough fun and everything is so flashy and cool that it doesn't much matter how dumb it is, it still works delightfully well.

Pretty much agreed with the film/spectacle breakdown, yeah.

If you're looking for a smart movie, ehhh...but it's fun. I can handle fun and dumb. That's a huge step up for DC.

Mordar

2018-12-27, 11:54 AM

Shadow of the Vampire. Opinions are of course opinions, but watch that and tell me he doesn't make it. Last Temptation of Christ and Platoon are good follow-ups.

I have seen it, and frankly it is the only movie of "his" that I actually like. Primarily because I make believe it isn't really him under all the make up, but instead some kind of acting-double. :smallsmile: In seriousness, I did really like the whole of Shadow. And he probably helped make it good. I hold my ground elsewhere, and forgive the frequency with which I saw To Live and Die in LA due to my age and the VCR.

Wonder Woman is a better film. Aquaman is a better spectacle.

So if you like, or are at least open to, dumb movies that function primarily as spectacle, then I'd say you should definitely see Aquaman (and honestly, this is one of the few films where the IMAX premium really is worth it), but if spectacle doesn't do it for you, then yeah, the movie's not worth your time.

An excellent way to put it. I didn't think it dumb, necessarily, but as someone else put it...shallow. However, SO glad I saw it in a theater. Visually very exciting!

- M

Legato Endless

2018-12-27, 04:49 PM

The script is definitely the weakest part of the affair, you've seen this chosen one plot a million times before without any real twists, but visually there is some flare with how Wan frames the spectacle.

The performance highlight is easily Julie Andrews as a Kaiju. Skipping the Mary Poppins cameo for this was a sage decision. It's only five minutes but it delivers. Especially with the framing, using the darkness of the ocean to obscure the creature and only having Arthur get punched around by a few appendages. More than the trench run, you really see Wan's horror chops on display here.

While I don't love Ocean Master's look, I do hope this starts more of a trend with dynamically emotive visages like Deadpool. Masks have a rich history for depicting intense emotional motifs in live theater and illustrations, but they've never caught on in film. Having that turn around would be artistically welcome, especially if Superhero fare stays the top dog for the foreseeable future.

All 3D is crap and not worth the extra ticket price. But see it in IMAX and its a great time.

Completely agreed.

Ranxerox

2018-12-28, 10:25 PM

The Jack

2018-12-29, 03:53 PM

I liked it, It was a fun movie and if I didn't have a headache at the time, I woulda enjoyed it more. One gripe; aquaman's strength seemed pretty inconsistent.

How're the trench a threat to him if they're vulnerable to thrown harpoons? The Guy lifts submarines and thinks of explosives as a nasty punch. Discounting mera, he could've won that section by using his limbs as bait and bashing skulls in when they got a bite. Sorta undermined how scary that section was supposed to be.

hamishspence

2018-12-29, 04:18 PM

How're the trench a threat to him if they're vulnerable to thrown harpoons?

They're tough enough to survive at both surface and depths - maybe that's enough that a bite or claw from them, with all their muscle behind it, will punch through his skin?

Noldo

2018-12-29, 05:06 PM

Plenty of nice scenery but the story was even dumber than I expected.

The final battle felt completely senseless. I just can get my head around the concept that the power of the Ocean Master may be granted to someone as long as four kingdoms agree, but the acceptance may be sought by whatever means. But perhaps it is consistent with the worldview that gods’ views can be derived from the bloodshed and thus might does make one right.

Apparently the Deserters are a new addition to Aquaman lore. I have to hope that whoever came up with the wordplay, if intended, is happy.

Sapphire Guard

2018-12-29, 05:10 PM

Honestly, I felt Aquaman's strength and durability was unusually consistent for a superhero film. They didn't bother to pretend that the pirates were a threat.

That's a harpoon thrown with superhuman strength, the Trench wouldn't be troubled by a human throwing it.

Pippa the Pixie

2018-12-29, 05:51 PM

So, is Aquaman a good Me Too film?

Aquaman is, in general, a much softer hero in general. And very much so with Mera. Aquaman likes Mera no problem, as she looks just like a Hollywood Actress (amazing)....but Aquaman spends most of the film just treating her like a gender neutral buddy. Mera, in his mind, is just a person...not a woman or female. Aquaman just about never mentions Mera is even a 'she'.

Aquaman never saves Mera in a fight, as she is not a female to be rescued.

And the big thing is Aquaman never makes a move, or nothing even close to a move. Mera is the one that finally does the big kiss. And it's a great kiss. And it's the crowing moment of Me Too awesome: the guy does nothing manly aggressive to the female at all...and just waits for her to do something.

So...big win? Hooray? Well, does it work for anyone?

Though, that being said Hollywood still has a way to go. Mera's default undersea suit is skin tight and low cut in the front. Mera, of course, looks near perfect always..even if in a fight or in a desert.

And Mera, to be an attractive princess is played by an actress just a couple years over thirty. While Aquaman still looks great, and his actor is just shy of fifty. But Hollywood has a problem with near fifty women, even more so when they need to be a pretty princess. Though the near twenty year age gap is normal, even more so for an action movie.

So, other then that, was Aquaman a good Me Too reaction movie?

lord_khaine

2018-12-29, 06:08 PM

Though, that being said Hollywood still has a way to go. Mera's default undersea suit is skin tight and low cut in the front. Mera, of course, looks near perfect always..even if in a fight or in a desert.

Mehh.. since Aquaman spend i dont know how long with nothing or very little on his upper body, then i dont think there are any futher way for Hollywood to go.

And Mera, to be an attractive princess is played by an actress just a couple years over thirty. While Aquaman still looks great, and his actor is just shy of fifty. But Hollywood has a problem with near fifty women, even more so when they need to be a pretty princess. Though the near twenty year age gap is normal, even more so for an action movie.

This is something else i dont think can be placed at the feet of Hollywood.
I at least could not see Aquaman were that old. Im directly shocked to hear so. I though he was in the 30-40 range.

Clertar

2018-12-29, 06:35 PM

Jason Momoa is 39, he was born in 79...

Zevox

2018-12-30, 01:37 PM

Mera's default undersea suit is skin tight and low cut in the front.
That just sounds like they accurately depicted her outfit straight out of the comics:
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/85/d4/e6/85d4e6be1ff8a3cb3ee515e0d0f4aebb.jpg

Legato Endless

2018-12-30, 03:26 PM

This film is definitely leaning into direct translations of the costumes into real life. As an achievement I found that underwhelming as I really think the MCU has figured out a better blend of conceding what actually works in meat space off the printed paged.

I don't miss the faded color mostly black leather early 2000s getups, but I also don't get the purists who clamor for copy pasting across the different visual mediums of comics to movies.

When Arthur walked out in his proper regalia, I heard the musical swell but shrugged because oh look, that's happening. He didn't look awesome in Justice League so admittedly this more a lateral move than a downgrade into goofiness.

Draconi Redfir

2018-12-30, 03:52 PM

I enjoyed it, i liked the different types of Atlantians and their designs. Kinda sad we didn't see more of the Prawns but ehh...

The trip into the Trench was amazing though, having the camera pan out further and further, only to reveal more and more trench creatures, and then when you think there's a lot, lighting strikes and reveals even MORE of them! To the point where the ocean looks to be more Trench-creatures then water.

That scene was incredibly Cthulu-esque, and i loved it.

Black Manta was also an amazing villain in my eyes, sucks we didn't get to see too much of him, but i enjoyed the way he's set up and how he plays out. If this were a Marvel movie, i'd hope to see him square off against Ironman of Black Panther sometime.

To be fair, this is the first DC movie i've seen since "The Dark Knight", so i haven't fully experienced the bad-ness of DC films. This one i thought was pretty good though.

The Jack

2018-12-31, 04:16 AM

So, is Aquaman a good Me Too film?

Aquaman never saves Mera in a fight, as she is not a female to be rescued.

Aquaman gets in front of Mera to take Manta's energy blast.

...and I think you should not discuss this kind of analysis so haphazardly.

This film is definitely leaning into direct translations of the costumes into real life. As an achievement I found that underwhelming as I really think the MCU has figured out a better blend of conceding what actually works in meat space off the printed paged.

I don't miss the faded color mostly black leather early 2000s getups, but I also don't get the purists who clamor for copy pasting across the different visual mediums of comics to movies.

When Arthur walked out in his proper regalia, I heard the musical swell but shrugged because oh look, that's happening. He didn't look awesome in Justice League so admittedly this more a lateral move than a downgrade into goofiness.

The problem wasn't what they tried to do, the problem was that they didn't do it well enough.
I thought AC's costume was decent, but there's clearly precedent for better costumes in the comics and better ways to do them.

Orm's outfits... Not very nice CG.

The Idea is great, the execution needs work.

Draconi Redfir

2018-12-31, 08:58 AM

Aquaman gets in front of Mera to take Manta's energy blast.

To be fair, there is a difference between "Damsel in distress" and "Get down Mr. President!". She does immediately start taking on five or six atlantian elites on her own after that.

but yeah, i was kind of expecting Author to immediately remove that gaudy orange scale-mail once he exited that waterfall. The pants and gloves work fine, and he'd look more badass shirtless anyways.

Ranxerox

2018-12-31, 10:51 AM

So, other then that, was Aquaman a good Me Too reaction movie?

For the most part. Mera is a badass as you would want her to be want to be, and Arthur respects her as a person.

The one misstep that I noticed was when in the desert Arthur knocked the map/locator out of Mera's hand. Items in your hands are considered part of your person for purposes of civil assault. Deliberately knock something our a coworkers hand, and expect a trip to human resources where they will decide whether or not to fire you. Moreover, you will have opened yourself up to a lawsuit and maybe criminal charges.

I wish they hadn't included that scene because it sends a bad message about what is acceptable behavior in a movie that otherwise, IMHO, get it right.

Tyndmyr

2018-12-31, 12:17 PM

And Mera, to be an attractive princess is played by an actress just a couple years over thirty. While Aquaman still looks great, and his actor is just shy of fifty. But Hollywood has a problem with near fifty women, even more so when they need to be a pretty princess. Though the near twenty year age gap is normal, even more so for an action movie.

Aquaman isn't supposed to be that old, and he's played by a 39 yr old man. Mera's played by a 32 yr old, so...only a seven year age gap. That falls within the bounds of a socially acceptable age gap, so I don't see it as cause for concern.

Do the heroes look good? Well, it's hollywood, so yeah. The original-inspired suit for Aquaman is a bit goofy, but I get what they were going for there. Sure, this is over the top, but on the other hand, it's a comic book movie. I'm not there to see realism.

Mordar

2018-12-31, 12:35 PM

I enjoyed it, i liked the different types of Atlantians and their designs. Kinda sad we didn't see more of the Prawns but ehh...

The trip into the Trench was amazing though, having the camera pan out further and further, only to reveal more and more trench creatures, and then when you think there's a lot, lighting strikes and reveals even MORE of them! To the point where the ocean looks to be more Trench-creatures then water.

That scene was incredibly Cthulu-esque, and i loved it.

Did you catch the copy of Dunwich Horror in the lighthouse? They were clearly trying to evoke some C'thulhu elements.

but yeah, i was kind of expecting Author to immediately remove that gaudy orange scale-mail once he exited that waterfall. The pants and gloves work fine, and he'd look more badass shirtless anyways.

But the point isn't to look "badass" - that'd already been completely covered (no pun intended). The point was, I think, to pay homage to the source material that is the sole reason these movies are being made, and to recognize the people (creators and consumers) that brought the characters to this stage.

- M

The Jack

2018-12-31, 07:20 PM

For the most part. Mera is a badass as you would want her to be want to be, and Arthur respects her as a person.

The one misstep that I noticed was when in the desert Arthur knocked the map/locator out of Mera's hand. Items in your hands are considered part of your person for purposes of civil assault. Deliberately knock something our a coworkers hand, and expect a trip to human resources where they will decide whether or not to fire you. Moreover, you will have opened yourself up to a lawsuit and maybe criminal charges.

I wish they hadn't included that scene because it sends a bad message about what is acceptable behavior in a movie that otherwise, IMHO, get it right.

I find it totally racist that the fish people react so strangely and with curiosity when concerning land animals. we don't react to fish that way. This sends a really bad message to people because if there were a secretive race of fish people we should assume they would be offended by assumptions of their fishyness.

CarpeGuitarrem

2019-01-01, 12:13 PM

For the most part. Mera is a badass as you would want her to be want to be, and Arthur respects her as a person.

The one misstep that I noticed was when in the desert Arthur knocked the map/locator out of Mera's hand. Items in your hands are considered part of your person for purposes of civil assault. Deliberately knock something our a coworkers hand, and expect a trip to human resources where they will decide whether or not to fire you. Moreover, you will have opened yourself up to a lawsuit and maybe criminal charges.

I wish they hadn't included that scene because it sends a bad message about what is acceptable behavior in a movie that otherwise, IMHO, get it right.
Although we've also established that Arthur is a flat-out jerk, even if nobody acknowledges it in the film.

Draconi Redfir

2019-01-01, 12:25 PM

yeah, i'm pretty sure that "knocking an item out of her hand" isn't as bad as you're making it out to be.

They were lost in the desert with nothing around, no supplies, no water, and no idea where they were going. I'd knock something out of whoever dragged me there's hands too in that situation. Plus it's such a minor thing to fret about. May as well be upset about the time Gollum knocked the One Ring out of Frodo's hands too.

eternalshades

2019-01-04, 02:31 PM

I just saw the movie.

1. It was the very best school recital that Jason Mamoa has ever done. He was so earnest that you can't help but root from him.
2. My nickname for this movie is "Indiana Jones and the Princess of Mars" reflecting the two strongest throughputs on this movie.
3. Aquaman's Dad feels like they really wanted Tony Danza. He was a lovable goomba and I'm half surprised when he met his other they didn't start playing "who's the boss" when he met Nicole Kidman.
4. James Wan obviously saw Young Justice. Black Mantra was both a bloodthirsty pirate and cared incredibly dearly for his family. You can practically hear the "screw you iron man" from the director after he got defeated in the 2nd act.
5. If JJ Abrams has lens flare, James Wan has "bubble cam" and since he didn't go for shaky came it came off far more enjoyable. However, there were at least a few parts where you could swear you wanted to press x to continue. :p
6. I stand corrected on the Indiana Jones part. 2nd act was more romancing the stone. It needed to flow better, but as soon as toto hit, I started giggling.
7. I think I reached peak sharks with lasers with this movie.
8. needed more William Dafoe, Nicole Kidman, and Dolph Lundgren.
10. Cthuhlu stole the show. Somebody obviously loved a certain picture.
11. this movie did a fantastic job laying down ground work for the world and future movies. I don't think I've ever seen a movie put their toys away for sequels better (It's like Thor, but we actually took care of our family at the end).

I think it's safe to say, any future crossover superhero movies will be staring Gal and Jason (because one of the good things about the justice league is their big sister/little brother dynamic). If Shazam is also a success, then you have a really strong throughput of Greek Mythology for a Superfriends movie (think the clash of the Titans meets the goonies). :D

It was a mess, but it was a glorious mess that did what it was expected to do. :)

The Jack

2019-01-04, 03:15 PM

I thought Dafoe was a total miscast. The dude's too distinct for his roll.
Also, Young aquaman was awful.

I get you on the Aquaman-WW front, but my fear is that, well, Shazaam doesn't look like it'll play well with others. The child looks great for the part, but the adult looks like too much of a comedic act and I feel he'd be a better plasticman from what I've seen. Adult shazaam should have the facade of a serious grown up.

The New Bruceski

2019-01-04, 04:42 PM

I liked that Arthur was a multilingual negotiator. Rather than some muscle brute with a trident it's his ability to communicate that gets people on his side. His superpower is talking to fish and it is awesome.

lord_khaine

2019-01-04, 06:04 PM

I get you on the Aquaman-WW front, but my fear is that, well, Shazaam doesn't look like it'll play well with others. The child looks great for the part, but the adult looks like too much of a comedic act and I feel he'd be a better plasticman from what I've seen. Adult shazaam should have the facade of a serious grown up.

Thats what was wrong with the trailer.
Yes. I do kinda think Shazam looks to goofy. And i dont think he should be doing that.

Mightymosy

2019-01-05, 04:33 AM

I liked the movie as good "popcorn cinema".

I also liked Mera, Aquaman and his mother, all good characters.

That being said, you know what would have been an awesome twist?

Here we have that guy who is a good guy, but his main abilities are punching villains, who never was in our kingdom, never wanted to be in our kingdom, knows nothing about our kingdom, and, above else, DOESN'T WANT to rule our kingdom.
Over here we have a girl who also is a good girl and goes OVER HER WAY to do what's right for her people and the world as a whole, her main ability - besides also punching villains - is talking and diplomacy, has grown up in our kingdom, loves our kingdom and people enough to go on a heroic quest for its wellbeing, knows alot about it, and belongs to royalty to boot!

Hmmmmmm.......whom should we crown new king queen of the undersea?

Really, it would have been a nice twist, have Mera be queen of the oceans and let Aquaman continue being the heroic savior of sailors against pirates and the like.

To me, the whole "......and then he became king" was expected, bland, and logically not convincing (which I don't necessarily demand from popocorn cinema, but it was a huge opportunity to ascend beyond that!)

The Jack

2019-01-05, 05:23 AM

I was always under the assumption that Aquaman as a hero king would heavily use his vizier/wife/mother and even brother because
A- He's a heroic adventurer.
B-He needs to catch up on politics, but that's largely a temporary issue.
C- Kingdoms are typically a small-government deal. A society as old as atlantis , which has been in a high-technology stage for at least two thousand years, would likely require little reworking of existing rules.

Oh, and the vizier did teach him things. So He's not entirely out of the loop.

But it's really not going to do anyone a service to go 'his wife does it all, cause feminism' Let's not date the movie.

Mightymosy

2019-01-05, 06:03 AM

The feminism is not the crux. Although it might be a bonus to a lot of people.

The crux is that it would give the ruler role to the most logical character. And I always like when stories do twists that surprise at first (because we are all so well-used to cliches, in this case the "hero becomes king" cliche), but are super logical in retrospect.

I don't mind Aquaman becoming king, especially not in that type of popocorn cinema movie. With or without viziers, mothers and wives and what have you.

I just say that the movie might have been dramatically better and deeper if they had crowned Mera instead.

Mechalich

2019-01-05, 07:39 AM

I just say that the movie might have been dramatically better and deeper if they had crowned Mera instead.

The simple problem with that is that Mera is the princess of Xebel, not Atlantis. She's not part of Atlantis' royal lineage and as a result can't become it's ruler. She could, potentially, acquire the superior title of Ocean Master - the acknowledged leader of the united tribes - but she would have the same problem with doing that Orm does, which is that the tribes don't get along and aren't prepared to bow before anyone save through the use of force. Arthur Curry bypasses that by acquiring the glowing trident McGuffin from the long dead king and beating down Orm to do the same. At the end of the movie Arthur has been acknowledged by Atlantis, by beating Orm; the Fisherman kingdom, because the princess watched him beat Orm; the Brine, because he saved them from Orm; and the Trench, because the glow-y trident allows him to command them. He may or may not have the full allegiance of Xebel, King Nereus withdraws without saying anything, but he doesn't need it.

Undersea politics aside, the thrust of the movie is that Arthur needs to become king to bridge the two worlds, and there's something too that. Mera doesn't want war with the surface, but she's just as clueless about life there as Orm is. Arthur may not be politically connected, but he at least knows people who are - like Batman and Superman - and could open a dialogue about stuff like plastic in the oceans, overfishing, and global warming.

The Jack

2019-01-05, 07:58 AM

I dunno, nothing about her seems like she'd make an exemplary good queen.

She's a badass, and she's not an idiot (although the Tracker was an easily read move she missed) but she's not... Why would they go "Well Arthur, you're good and all, but we decided kingship's not really what we wanted, so we'll crown mera" or arthur going "Well, you wanted me for king, and I went through all these ordeals, but I really see you're great at everything so I'll step down and you be queen, even though we're both hot and this is holywood so you'll probably be queen anyway if I be king"

I can't see a reasonable way for it to happen. There's no good writing for it (she's not even from atlantis proper) I know it's a popcorn flick, so good writing isn't absolutely neccessary, but it's not good. Plus, again, they're trying to make aquaman cool, and having him choose to step down from kingship is really going to run the other way.

I think aquaman with a council of his mother, his teacher and his to-be wife is interesting. I think he'd concede a lot of power to these people, and it'd be very pro-mera without all the consequences of bad writing and the political connotations that come with that. I want to see him devolop a relationship with his brother.

Plus mera can't compete with wonder woman and she shouldn't

Legato Endless

2019-01-05, 04:49 PM

The simple problem with that is that Mera is the princess of Xebel, not Atlantis.

The other issue is the film has a less than subtle Arthurian motif tying into Aquaman, and Mera doesn't get any payoff there in the coronation scene the filmmaker's obviously felt was a big deal. Unless they tried to pull a fast one and insert Guinevere in the middle of her string of names when she introduces herself to Arthur.

CarpeGuitarrem

2019-01-06, 08:09 AM

I could see the argument for Mera receiving the crown, even though it's true that "Arthur will bridge the worlds" is a motif, albeit one I entirely forgot about after the first third of the movie. Themes were not a strong suit of the film.

Basically: when it comes down to it, I'm pretty sure it's Mera who takes the most action to progress the plot successfully, by a good margin, and Arthur's biggest success (getting the Trident) is partially because of his own ability, partially because he's The Chosen One. Thinking back on it, it feels like the only other important thing he did, other than throwing royal monkey wrenches into things, was figuring out the riddle with the statues. So I can definitely see that vibe of "he really didn't do anything to deserve it".

Mechalich

2019-01-06, 05:54 PM

Basically: when it comes down to it, I'm pretty sure it's Mera who takes the most action to progress the plot successfully, by a good margin, and Arthur's biggest success (getting the Trident) is partially because of his own ability, partially because he's The Chosen One. Thinking back on it, it feels like the only other important thing he did, other than throwing royal monkey wrenches into things, was figuring out the riddle with the statues. So I can definitely see that vibe of "he really didn't do anything to deserve it".

The movie very clearly sets Arthur up as an intuitive type, to the point of having Mera say 'you do your best thinking when you're not thinking at all.' He makes a couple of key moves such as hiding in the whale and using flares against the trench that really get them out of jams. Ultimately though, the movie has a very Greek mythic vibe and like a Greek hero, Arthur's primary credential for kingship beyond bloodline is simply his general awesomeness. Considering we're talking about a character played by Jason Momoa here, I think that was the correct approach to take. Regal would be a reach, but awesome is exactly his wheelhouse.

The Jack

2019-01-07, 08:13 AM

I agree with the sentiment, but what a cringeworthy line.

LaZodiac

2019-01-07, 08:28 AM

The cheesiest line in the film is the conversation about tears, but it's also super...like, symbolic of the thing the story is shooting for? It's one of those things where yes, it's cheesy, but it's actually important to the narrative and it's themes.

But yeah, I enjoyed this film. It was fun to see this big dumb idiot goober learn to take responsibility for the world. It was also refreashing to see a DCCU hero is one, absolutely loving being who he is and has people who love him, and two, has both parents alive who love him and are there to support him in times of need. It's a rare bit of light in the dark as **** synderverse, and is one in a series of "let's genuinely try to recover after the ****show of MOS and JL" that I'm honestly all in for.

The Jack

2019-01-07, 10:46 AM

Superman is my favourite and he's the biggest problem with the DCEU. Literally they should've just copy-pasted the animated series into movie form. Everybody who watched it loved it.

Replace batman with **** Greyson. That'll be fine. Batman was edgier than usual, but batman is edgy.
But superman.. Superman ain't supposed to be edgy. Edgyiest thing about superman is how heroically good he is in front of really really bad guys. I don't think people care for the extended super family, so the only way I can think of that gives us a good superman is Mister Myxzptlk.

Aquaman and wonder woman I think they've nailed. It's not a flawless film, and he's not yelling OUTRAGEOUS like he does in Batman the brave and the bold (That was a very fun interpretation of the character, even if the series was a bit grating)

The flash sucked hard and aught to be scrapped, cyborg is maybe salvagable.
I'm having trouble laying my thoughts out, but I think the path for justice league is either keep WW and AM, adding Martian manhunter, Jon stewart and Booster gold and/or shining knight (do it!). Then add hawks/Plastic man in another issue (White martians/Hawk people are great villains). That could work without superman, and it could work with superman.

Do you think aquaman being so arthurian would impact a shining knight film?

Draconi Redfir

2019-01-07, 06:20 PM

how many kingdoms / tribes of Atlantis were there again? Six or seven? i remember the mention of Seven, buuuhht...

1. Atlantis
2. whatever Mera is from
3. Fishermen
4. Prawns
5. Trench
6. Deserters
7 ???? unknown.

unless the 7th is the group that we see used as foot-soldiers that can't breathe air? like in the battle against Black Manta? Thought those were Atlantians and the Royalty were different or all decended from Mera's group or whatever, but idk.

can't remember what group they said are the only ones able to breathe air.

Fyraltari

2019-01-07, 06:37 PM

how many kingdoms / tribes of Atlantis were there again? Six or seven? i remember the mention of Seven, buuuhht...

1. Atlantis
2. whatever Mera is from
3. Fishermen
4. Prawns
5. Trench
6. Deserters
7 ???? unknown.
The Lost Nation. They don't know where they are.

unless the 7th is the group that we see used as foot-soldiers that can't breathe air? like in the battle against Black Manta? Thought those were Atlantians and the Royalty were different or all decended from Mera's group or whatever, but idk.

can't remember what group they said are the only ones able to breathe air.
Highborns can breath air, Lowborns can't.

Noldo

2019-01-08, 09:16 AM

Draconi Redfir

2019-01-08, 12:05 PM

The Lost Nation. They don't know where they are.

Seaqual-bait then, got it:smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

Highborns can breath air, Lowborns can't.

ahh okay. must be a caste-type thing then.

LaZodiac

2019-01-08, 08:04 PM

I mean I figured the hidden sea was the seventh kingdom, but that's fair.

I bet the lost kingdom floated up instead and are birds and that's how we'll get Hawkman and Hawk Woman.

The Jack

2019-01-08, 09:40 PM

And change the very clear cut and unanimously Iconic backstory for the Hawks? Blasphemy!

Mechalich

2019-01-08, 09:58 PM

I mean I figured the hidden sea was the seventh kingdom, but that's fair.

It is certainly possible for the Lost to be connected to the hidden sea, whether as having lived there, still living there, or having passed through there en route to somewhere else, oceans on another planet perhaps. The current film shows very little of the hidden sea, leaving it as a prospect to explore in the future - an ideal spot to throw in prehistoric sea monsters for further movies.

The Lost certainly serve as either a ready made McGuffin for Aquaman 2 (a movie that will happen since this movie is going to clear the 1 billion mark and might even hit 1.1) in the same way the Deserters did in this film or a potential antagonist force that returns to try and conquer the seas. Of course, future Aquaman material is going to depend upon where the rest of the DC material goes, so who knows what direction the sequel will take.

Legato Endless

2019-01-09, 12:47 AM

Do you think aquaman being so arthurian would impact a shining knight film?

The biggest obstacle Shining Knight has is the considerable line of more famous characters blocking his view to be pushed into live action first, and the hundred Batman spinoffs DC will be pushing into the next century barring bankruptcy. And with DC not yet matching Marvel's rate of 2-3 films...

The previous deal breaker would be a guy on a winged horse wouldn't be Xtreme Kool enough for the Snyderverse, but with Shazam on the horizon DC seems to be freeing itself up to embrace the more whimsical aspects of comics.

The Jack

2019-01-09, 06:32 AM

Shining knight and booster gold would make extremely fun films that i feel could be made very relevant. Not as silly as plastic man, but very fun and feel-good. If marvel can make the guardians of the galaxy big, SK and BG are ready.

Plus they're really eye popping characters that would be easy to market. BG litererally markets himself. With aquaman's success people are obviously wantin fir that kind of character

Clertar

2019-01-10, 11:50 AM

If marvel can make the guardians of the galaxy big, SK and BG are ready.

They would be fun to see for sure. But by that reasoning Batman, Superman and the Flash should have been infallible.

Xyril

2019-01-10, 12:25 PM

They would be fun to see for sure. But by that reasoning Batman, Superman and the Flash should have been infallible.

I think the reasoning is less that "if Marvel could do it, DC can't fail" and more that Marvel has demonstrated that the sort quirky and obscure comic characters that most studio execs would immediate regard as guaranteed losers (or at best, "risky") can in fact appeal to a wider audience. To me, the main takeaway is that if a Booster Gold movie fails, it won't be because Booster Gold is too weird to appeal to anyone but a comic fan, but because Warner and DC Entertain is, to put it generously, still finding their footing on adapting comic material to the big screen.

Mordar

2019-01-10, 12:44 PM

I think the reasoning is less that "if Marvel could do it, DC can't fail" and more that Marvel has demonstrated that the sort quirky and obscure comic characters that most studio execs would immediate regard as guaranteed losers (or at best, "risky") can in fact appeal to a wider audience. To me, the main takeaway is that if a Booster Gold movie fails, it won't be because Booster Gold is too weird to appeal to anyone but a comic fan, but because Warner and DC Entertain is, to put it generously, still finding their footing on adapting comic material to the big screen.

I really don't know much about Booster, and less about SK, so I may be off base here, but this is my take:

DC comics originated/perfected/whichever you like the paragon superhero. In the Golden Age (and into the Silver Age) the superheroes were beatable, but infallible. They were the best of what we could aspire to be and were there not to lord it over us but to inspire us to be better people.

Marvel comics originated/perfected/whichever you like the human superhero. In the Bronze Age the superheros are humans, with all their failings, quirks and shortcomings, that are granted super-human powers...and use them to make the world a better place. They made the best of the situation they had, and were there to inspire us to do the same and make a better world.

While both companies evolved and progressed and changed, at their heart I think this still held/holds true. DC has added humanity to their paragon characters. Marvel might not have made more paragons, but they made the ones they had (like Cap, pre-stupid Hydra Agent storyline) more paragony.

But the heart kind of remains (or at least did during the character explosions of the 70s and 80s), so I think the Marvel quirky characters are more "organically" quirky and are approachable characters in their own right...while some/more/many of the DC "quirky" characters are defined more significantly by their power-set and quirks. See, for instance, an array of Batman and Flash rogues, and the fillers in the Justice League/Legion of Super Heroes.

I'm not saying BG isn't a good character - I know he has lots of fans, so there must be a reason for it, and I know he isn't a one-trick character like Super Friends-version Aquaman. I'm just saying that I believe Marvel probably has a better stable of second- and third-tier characters that would be attractive for studios and movie-goers because of the nature of their genesis than DC. Coupled with the (to me) clear superiority of the MCU machinery over the DCCU system and you can have GotG be successful and, for instance, even Shazam or BG perhaps fail.

Or perhaps I'm just flat wrong and it really is just an issue of MCU machinery >> DCCU machinery.

- M

The Jack

2019-01-10, 01:24 PM

They would be fun to see for sure. But by that reasoning Batman, Superman and the Flash should have been infallible.

Not really the same logic. Look at the Fantastic 4. We're in a world where small names like black panther can compete with the big boys.

GloatingSwine

2019-01-10, 06:45 PM

The biggest obstacle Shining Knight has is the considerable line of more famous characters blocking his view to be pushed into live action first, and the hundred Batman spinoffs DC will be pushing into the next century barring bankruptcy. And with DC not yet matching Marvel's rate of 2-3 films...

The biggest obstacle Shining Knight has is the legacy of the last several attempts at doing anything straight Arthurian that have sucked like all of the donkeys.

Booster Gold, however, is a hero whose time has come.

In this the current year of 2019, when superhero movies are making all of the money forever, the story of a joe schmoe from the future who comes back to the present with loads of future tech to be a superhero for the fame and chicks?

That's an idea that nobody needs any introduction to. It just works on its own now.

The Jack

2019-01-10, 06:55 PM

Shining knight's best feature would be -medieval values- on an idealist displaced into the future. The Arthurian stuff's just backstory.

Also, king arthur movies have sucked because
a-they were bad movies.
b-they were bad movies
c- they're always 'reimaginings' or otherwise some radical departure from the ballpark of King arthur.
d-They're bad movies.
e-They're made by creatively-bankrupt people and it always shows.

But yeah, SK doesn't necessarily need to be overly tied to King Arthur.

Aquaman has a king Arthur in it.

Fyraltari

2019-01-10, 07:12 PM

c- they're always 'reimaginings' or otherwise some radical departure from the ballpark of King arthur.

There isn't a ballpark King Arthur. Even knowing who the main character is (Arthur? Lancelot? Galahad? Percival? some other knight?), who the antagonist is (Mordred? Morgana? Someone else?) or what exactly they're supposed to be doing (Defending Britain against invaders? Looking for a holy grail that may or may not have something to do with Jesus? Doing a bunch of unrelated quests?) changes all the time.

Mechalich

2019-01-10, 07:31 PM

In this the current year of 2019, when superhero movies are making all of the money forever

They aren't all making all the money forever. Some of them are just making reasonable amounts of money, and because they cost a lot of money to produce and market, that makes them risky. In particular, if you want a superhero film to be a smashing success in 2019 and onward, you have to plan internationally, it is a very rare film (basically Black Panther alone) that can squeeze profitability on a superhero-sized budget out of the US market only. In particular, a superhero film needs to play well in China just as much as it does in the US. China is the #1 market for Aquaman after all, and for Venom before that, so the movie needs to appeal to Chinese sensibilities as well as US ones. Aquaman actually appears to be a very good model for how to capture the Chinese market going forward. Chinese audiences love spectacle - their domestically produced blockbusters are full of huge and absurdly busy action scenes with copious explosions - and they also love larger-than-life character types which fits well with their own cultural heritage. The 'gods among us' mythmaking style of DC is actually probably a better inherent fit than the 'great power, great responsibility' ethos of Marvel.

thompur

2019-01-11, 11:08 AM

candys

2019-01-11, 11:49 AM

Aquaman, thought it was better than most in this series of comic book films, good effects and fights, was entertained for the whole length of the film without being bored, 8/10

The Jack

2019-01-12, 07:56 AM

I really liked its style...

If DC movies follow aquaman and marvel continues what it's doing, DC will win out

Clertar

2019-01-12, 01:00 PM

Dr.Samurai

2019-01-12, 01:30 PM

Just saw it last night. Wasn't crazy about it. Movie seemed strangely generic and also all over the place. The music was over-the-top and too on the nose, whether when setting up a comedic one-liner, or those stupid guitar riffs in the beginning whenever Aquaman hit someone or said something. Also in setting up the cheesy dialogue.

I couldn't help but get a Power Rangers villain vibe from Black Manta (after getting his suit), which is too bad because I thought the character was cool. I didn't feel a disconnect between someone that would thoughtlessly kill sailors for no reason, and that same person pleading for his father's life. He's that self-centered. Cool character, but the costume didn't do it for me. Also, I would have liked a little more time spent on the relationship between Manta and Orm, instead of just seeing Black Manta standing rigid somewhere with a scowl on his face as Atlanteans approach from the water.

Speaking of costumes, I get Aquaman's orange suit and Mera's green suit. They're skin tight and sleek. But the Atlantean armor just seemed so clunky and obtrusive. It seemed out of place for an underwater race. The suits looked cool, but seems like all of those armor pieces would drag when you do your super atlantean swim thrusts.

There were some parts that pulled me out of the movie, like that octopus thing playing the drums. I thought I was in underwater Mos Eisley, which hey, maybe that's what they were going for.

Plot was super simple and generic. It seemed like a hiccup when he fights Orm the first time only to be interrupted by Mera to go on the quest they were already setting up. But I guess they wanted to setup the challenge for the throne for later.

The portal came out of nowhere, as well as the condition for leaving. Which is fine, it gives a reason why Atlanta couldn't return. But it's totally arbitrary and not set up so you just sort of shrug your shoulders and go "Okay, portal in the trench leading to the middle of nowhere that you can't return through until Arthur gets the trident, got it."

Two scenes in particular stand out for the way they looked. One is the scene of Black Manta falling down that cliff. It looked cool getting the close-up perspective (didn't seem CGI to me). And the second is that shot as they are fleeing the Trench and swimming deeper and deeper and just getting more surrounded. Very cool. The boat scene in general when Trench shows up takes a tonal shift and the movie gets better for it.

I liked that both his parents are alive and care for him and still love each other. I like that his father still checks for her every sunrise and that he's able to tell her that when they meet. Very nice.

Some of the visuals were cool, but there was a lot of CGI and a lot of lights everywhere lol. Not sure how you could do this movie with more practical effects though so I suppose this was to be expected.

I liked the use of his animal control powers. That was pretty cool. When he's fighting the Gravemind, you just think it's speaking to him but in actuality no one has heard this creature's thoughts before and that's key to his victory. And then during the battle of Five Armies, he starts controlling their mounts and wrecking everything. Very cool.

Movie was pretty goofy overall and pretty paint-by-numbers. Nothing remarkable. Doesn't suffer from the Snyder influence, so that's good. I think it's on a par with Wonder Woman, for what that's worth, but I didn't think Wonder Woman was that amazing either.

keybounce

2019-01-12, 08:59 PM

This film is definitely leaning into direct translations of the costumes into real life. As an achievement I found that underwhelming as I really think the MCU has figured out a better blend of conceding what actually works in meat space off the printed paged.

"Are you really going out in these things? You must be braver than I thought."
"Well what should we wear? Yellow spandex?"

I did not like Aquaman.

Never mind such things as giant flaming rivers and oceans of lava exposed to the ocean and staying hot; nevermind catapults flinging giant balls of flame out of the lava through the water to hit something at a distance. Nevermind war that looked like it was ground Siege warfare above the water; nevermind people that lacked Ender's realization about the lack of a privileged up even while living underwater their whole life.

The movie had so many places where it could have simply stepped away from the typical stereotype clichés. It took none of the off-roads.

The movie felt like a remake of King Arthur. Complete with the Lady of the Lake. They even had a character comment on the whole "King Arthur" bit (remember, Aquaman's name is Arthur.).

What could have happened?

The "evil ruler" could have actually been someone who is concerned about the future of Atlantis. Instead, instead of saying "simply because he was born first, doesn't mean he should be entitled to rule; he has no knowledge of the kingdom, he has no loyalty to the kingdom, he has no plan for the kingdom", we instead have the typical "me me me".

A simple question to him, at the scene of the duel between the 2 of them: "Tell me, brother. Tell me that you have a plan. Tell me your plan for protecting Atlantis from the abuse of the surface folk right now, convince me that you can make it happen, and I will swear allegiance to you". Arthur of course would be completely unable to provide him with any such plan, yet this alone would allow establishing that his brother was concerned with the fate and future of Atlantis.

The whole bit with the spinning propeller wheel, the obvious shout out to Raiders of the lost Ark, and then it's not happening? Is that one little bit be most original thing to happen in this movie?

Mechalich

2019-01-13, 12:08 AM

nevermind people that lacked Ender's realization about the lack of a privileged up even while living underwater their whole life.

Underwater is not in space. It still very much possesses a privileged up. It's a lot less privileged, sure, especially if you're above considerable depth (though much of the movie takes place only a short distant above the ocean floor), but it absolutely does exist.

keybounce

2019-01-14, 11:33 PM

Maybe, but you still have a 3d battle space, and not just a 2d on the ground war floor.

Dr.Samurai

2019-01-15, 07:29 AM

The scenes where Mera and Atlanta beat up a bunch of Atlanteans on the surface world are awesome, but it does seem strange how mobile and flippy and proficient they are in out-of-water combat. Still awesome.

GloatingSwine

2019-01-15, 07:54 AM

Maybe, but you still have a 3d battle space, and not just a 2d on the ground war floor.

To an extent, but the things that govern your ability to use the third dimension are not what you think.

If you have negative buoyancy, then you need to put in effort to go up, but if you have positive buoyancy then you need to put in effort to go down.

So it's possible to have a situation where both sides are having to fight against their natural buoyancy in order to attack the other.

You don't have completely free movement in the vertical plane, it still takes work, and you're still subject to gravity at the same time.

The scenes where Mera and Atlanta beat up a bunch of Atlanteans on the surface world are awesome, but it does seem strange how mobile and flippy and proficient they are in out-of-water combat. Still awesome.

The noble classes retained the ability to breathe air and maintain air-filled locations (presumably to keep the lower classes in their place, revolution is hard if you can't breathe). So the ability to fight and fight more competently than the lower classes can manage in air is of value to them.

Bartmanhomer

2019-01-15, 08:06 AM

I saw Aquamancer a few Saturday ago with my friend and this what I think about the movie:

It's was awesome. They should Aquaman origin story. There was so much action and excitement. It deserved to be nominated and for an Oscar but for special effects mostly in Superhero movie always get nominated for special effects. :smile:

Marcelinari

2019-01-16, 08:11 AM

LaZodiac

2019-01-16, 08:27 AM

Marcelinari

2019-01-16, 09:43 AM

Hmm. Okay, so Orm’s father was responsible for the attempted rendition of Atlanna at the start of the film? Did the noble families of Atlantis force Atlanna to become a sacrifice to the Trench, or Orm’s father, or was it the general consensus of the common people?

For a city willing to arrest their Queen in order to get her to come back, they sure do seem uncommonly willing to sacrifice her to the deep old ones the moment it has transpired that she did something else they didn’t like. The whole succession issue and Atlantis’ treatment of Atlanna was pretty murky to me.

Legato Endless

2019-01-16, 10:01 AM

Her husband got rid of her. Aquaman doesn't spend a lot of time on the political situation so there's a lot of speculation here, but it's not hard to imagine context for the sequence of events to make sense.

Orvax needs Atlanna to secure his position and Atlantis is going to want their dynastic head back. Once Atlanna has given an heir, it's easier to argue about getting rid of her. Second, a royal fleeing a distasteful situation is forgivable. She was a frivolous youth. A royal that sired a half breed child with a surface worlder is a traitor to the race and a threat to Orvax's son becoming king. Reclaiming and then later executing by banishment makes sense in that situation.

Orvax might well have also trumped up other charges to cement his case against her with the public. Getting rid of her also becomes expedient to the same factions that wanted their Queen back, if they fear the implications of Arthur taking the throne. Beyond the surface worlder problem, what if the commons tries to use this to angle for more power?

Mordar

2019-01-16, 01:08 PM

I have a burning question: given how it’s presented in the movie, how does Atlantean succession work? When the King dies, the firstborn son of the Queen automatically takes the throne, regardless of his relation to the King? Why was there a King of Atlantis (Orm’s father) and a Queen (Atlanna) who weren’t yet married to each other? By what right did Arthur actually take the throne? Right of inheritance, right of conquest, right of combat, or divine right of kings?

I don't remember all the details but they actually explain that Orm isn't from Atlantis, he's from one of the other kingdoms, and Atlanna is the actual ruler of the kingdom by all the ways one can be a queen. Then it was discovered she had a weird half-human baby and was exiled to the Trench to die, abjucating the throne.

Orm is from Atlantis. At least, movie Orm (and New 52 Orm). Second child of Atlanna and her husband. It appears Atlanna was the daughter of the previous rulers, so the legitimacy is through her bloodline. Assuming Atlanna is dead (as they all believe), birth order gives Arthur a stronger claim than Orm...but legitimate birth, presence and acceptance as a "full" Atlantean gives Orm a strong claim and very broad support. So, we have right of inheritance mingled with questions of legitimacy of inheritance...so the ancient trial by combat option is invoked. Round one is interrupted, round two is a decisive victory (following a strong showing of Arthur's merit/worth as Atlantean), so the winner of the trial by combat becomes king.

Yup, Atlanna should still be the ruler, but we'll assume that her being tossed in the trench also was a repudiation by the people, and she wanted to be elsewhere anyway, so she pulled a much nicer King Edward VIII and abdicated.

- M

Fyraltari

2019-01-16, 02:10 PM

Yup, Atlanna should still be the ruler, but we'll assume that her being tossed in the trench also was a repudiation by the people, and she wanted to be elsewhere anyway, so she pulled a much nicer King Edward VIII and abdicated.

Seeing as she couldn't get to the trident because the Krakken (or whatever the name was) would only let the rightful king pass, there's a chance that Queens never get to rule anything in Atlantean society.

Mordar

2019-01-16, 03:01 PM

Seeing as she couldn't get to the trident because the Krakken (or whatever the name was) would only let the rightful king pass, there's a chance that Queens never get to rule anything in Atlantean society.

But that would mean that no one had been ruling, because Orm's dad didn't have the Mega Trident of Magical Awesomeness either.

I think that's just the widget that let Arthur compete with Orm and show the assembled Undersea People that he's got ocean cred.

- M

CarpeGuitarrem

2019-01-16, 04:00 PM

Seeing as she couldn't get to the trident because the Krakken (or whatever the name was) would only let the rightful king pass, there's a chance that Queens never get to rule anything in Atlantean society.
Yeah, that bit was a real head-scratcher for me after the movie. I went "...wait. The rightful Queen of Atlantis was down there the whole time, and Julie Andrews Kraken doesn't recognize that authority?"

The Jack

2019-01-16, 04:17 PM

Nah there's a difference between 'rightful king' as in, the correct man for the job according to lineage, and 'rightful king' as in "god's chosen bad-ass/ best under meritocracy".

My weird thought;
If certain races have 'devolved'/evolved but not really, wouldn't they benefit by controlled breeding with humans on the surface? If AC is just as strong as a full royal+telepaphy, wouldn't it be worth experimenting with more human genes in the pool?

From what I saw, my head cannon is that the magic made atlanteans awesome but they're devolving, and the -more-human- ones are better, so why not introduce more human DNA?

*mental image of atlantean women forming sex-tourism groups and trying to pass off the crab people as exotic prostitutes*

More headcannon-
The highborns know that human seed is good once in a while, but make people think the opposite to maintain their status and superiority.

Legato Endless

2019-01-16, 04:31 PM

Also, Arthur wasn't just taking the mantle of King of Atlantis, he was taking Alan's mantle. Atlan didn't rule just that colony, he ruled the entire Atlantean Empire. The Trident doesn't make you ruler of the city, it makes you ruler of the seas. That requires you to be able to communicate with all marine life, and why Julie Andrews didn't acknowledge anyone until Arthur demonstrates this ability.

I'd also hazard Arthur's mom isn't the first royal to try and fail either.

Fyraltari

2019-01-16, 05:58 PM

But that would mean that no one had been ruling, because Orm's dad didn't have the Mega Trident of Magical Awesomeness either.

I think that's just the widget that let Arthur compete with Orm and show the assembled Undersea People that he's got ocean cred.

- M
You misunderstand, I was saying that the Kraken may not have let her pass on the ground that she was a woman and woman can be Queens (the ruler's wife or mother) but not King (the actual ruler). So when Aquaman's grandad died power did not pass onto his daughter but on to his son-in-law and when he died, power passed on to his son, the previous king's grandson.

Also, Arthur wasn't just taking the mantle of King of Atlantis, he was taking Alan's mantle. Atlan didn't rule just that colony, he ruled the entire Atlantean Empire. The Trident doesn't make you ruler of the city, it makes you ruler of the seas. That requires you to be able to communicate with all marine life, and why Julie Andrews didn't acknowledge anyone until Arthur demonstrates this ability.

I'd also hazard Arthur's mom isn't the first royal to try and fail either.
That makes sense too.

lord_khaine

2019-01-16, 06:07 PM

Yes, thats actually almost the most beautiful thing in the entire movie. Despite the underwater town or the stunning fight scenes.
What decided it all were that Arthur can speak with fish :smallbiggrin:

Mordar

2019-01-16, 06:12 PM

You misunderstand, I was saying that the Kraken may not have let her pass on the ground that she was a woman and woman can be Queens (the ruler's wife or mother) but not King (the actual ruler). So when Aquaman's grandad died power did not pass onto his daughter but on to his son-in-law and when he died, power passed on to his son, the previous king's grandson.

But then Arthur is never legitimate since the biological line jumped from Atlanna to Atlanna's husband, and Orm is the only child of Atlanna's husband.

Still, I think I get you...but still cling to the POV that Atlanna's bloodline rules Atlantis, Arthur has a legitimate (but not sole) claim, the Trident gives him the power to overcome Orm's fighting experience and also happens to be the MTMA that says, as Legato Endless points out, the wielder is "The King of the World Ocean". Otherwise Arthur having any legitimacy just doesn't make much sense to me (pre-securing the MTMA).

- M

Fyraltari

2019-01-16, 06:58 PM

But then Arthur is never legitimate since the biological line jumped from Atlanna to Atlanna's husband, and Orm is the only child of Atlanna's husband.

Still, I think I get you...but still cling to the POV that Atlanna's bloodline rules Atlantis, Arthur has a legitimate (but not sole) claim, the Trident gives him the power to overcome Orm's fighting experience and also happens to be the MTMA that says, as Legato Endless points out, the wielder is "The King of the World Ocean". Otherwise Arthur having any legitimacy just doesn't make much sense to me (pre-securing the MTMA).

- M
That's not what I said. Orm's and his father's legitimacies may very well both come from their relation to Atlanna.

"MTMA"?

Mechalich

2019-01-16, 07:44 PM

That's not what I said. Orm's and his father's legitimacies may very well both come from their relation to Atlanna.

The simple answer to this question is to say that Atlantis, and the undersea kingdoms generally, has non-gendered inheritance, and the oldest child of the former ruler becomes the heir. So Atlanna is the oldest child of her parents and its her children who will inherit, regardless of fatherhood. There's a parallel seen in the former of the Fisherman Kingdom - when Orm kills the King, the Princess immediately becomes the Queen, she doesn't get passed over for a male relative. Likewise, it is established that Mera is the eldest of Nereus' children and the heir to Xebel, and it is never suggested that she'll lose that crown after marrying Orm.

In this scenario Orm's father, whomever he is, probably some high-ranking Atlantean noble, was never in the line of royal inheritance at any point, even though he became King in the name of his sacrificed wife.

Fyraltari

2019-01-16, 07:49 PM

The simple answer to this question is to say that Atlantis, and the undersea kingdoms generally, has non-gendered inheritance, and the oldest child of the former ruler becomes the heir. So Atlanna is the oldest child of her parents and its her children who will inherit, regardless of fatherhood. There's a parallel seen in the former of the Fisherman Kingdom - when Orm kills the King, the Princess immediately becomes the Queen, she doesn't get passed over for a male relative. Likewise, it is established that Mera is the eldest of Nereus' children and the heir to Xebel, and it is never suggested that she'll lose that crown after marrying Orm.

In this scenario Orm's father, whomever he is, probably some high-ranking Atlantean noble, was never in the line of royal inheritance at any point, even though he became King in the name of his sacrificed wife.[/QUOTE]
Somebody in the theater was talking during the Firshermen scene so I didn't get exactly what was going on with the princess and I don't really remember about Mera being the heir, but you are probably right.

Kind of weird that Atlanna was punished if she was the Queen, though. Or how her husband could order her capture.

Ranxerox

2019-01-16, 10:01 PM

Somebody in the theater was talking during the Firshermen scene so I didn't get exactly what was going on with the princess and I don't really remember about Mera being the heir, but you are probably right.

Kind of weird that Atlanna was punished if she was the Queen, though. Or how her husband could order her capture.

The Fishermen scene indicated that at least for them and possible for the other kingdoms that the line of succession moves through firstborn children regardless of gender. However, the fact that all 5 kingdoms are being ran by kings at the start of the film, suggest that firstborn daughters are expected to marry and once they do the lions share of the political power is given over to there husbands.

GloatingSwine

2019-01-17, 03:51 AM

You misunderstand, I was saying that the Kraken may not have let her pass on the ground that she was a woman and woman can be Queens (the ruler's wife or mother) but not King (the actual ruler). So when Aquaman's grandad died power did not pass onto his daughter but on to his son-in-law and when he died, power passed on to his son, the previous king's grandson.

That makes sense too.

The Kaiju wasn’t letting anyone past at all. It only let Arthur through because he could hear and speak to it.

If any of the other members of Atlan’s line had that ability they could have succeeded.

I think the intent is for us to draw the conclusion that because Arthur is half human (the bridge between land and sea) he has this extra thing that no Atlantean since the first generation has had.

Also it’s a cool way of making what is usually considered the biggest joke in Aquaman’s power set, talks to fish, the key to resolving the conflict.

Mordar

2019-01-17, 01:05 PM

Kind of weird that Atlanna was punished if she was the Queen, though. Or how her husband could order her capture.

Yeah, I agree - this was a sticking point for me, and my only reconciliation was based on the ideas that (a) things went crappy while she was gone and worsened when she came back, (b) the Atlantis folk are very superstitious, and (c) Orm's father convinced the people that Atlanna was the cause of things going crappy and she had to be thrown in the volcano trench to appease the gods.

Also it’s a cool way of making what is usually considered the biggest joke in Aquaman’s power set, talks to fish, the key to resolving the conflict.

Stupid Super Friends and their stupid undermining of a very cool power.

- M

The Jack

2019-01-17, 07:06 PM

Lord of the Helms

2019-01-18, 03:51 AM

It could be that although the queen had more 'right' to the throne, the king was more influential. Most everything works if you think it through enough.

Heck, there's even prominent real-life historical precedent for a gender-flipped version of this, where a woman who became Empress through marriage was able to usurp her husband's throne through a coup and went on to rule a major power for over 30 years (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_the_Great), largely because said husband was very unpopular with the other nobility. So Atlanna's husband being able to effectively take power from her even if it was hers by birthright doesn't seem that unrealistic, considering she had previously abandoned the country for several years.

lord_khaine

2019-01-18, 06:09 AM

Stupid Super Friends and their stupid undermining of a very cool power.

- M

Well to be honest, it is utterly useless on land where the majority of the League's adventures take place.

My only hangup was that AC fled the duel with outside help. That seems like it should've been an auto forfeit.
Also Black manta is too good at engineering. Justify it more. If you're such a good engineer why are you a pirate?

It likely also would have been in a Atlantean court of law.
But Arthur could press his point with a deep sea monster and a magical trident.

LaZodiac

2019-01-18, 08:04 AM

It could be that although the queen had more 'right' to the throne, the king was more influential. Most everything works if you think it through enough.

My only hangup was that AC fled the duel with outside help. That seems like it should've been an auto forfeit.
Also Black manta is too good at engineering. Justify it more. If you're such a good engineer why are you a pirate?

Because his father and his father's father was a pirate. They kinda make a big deal of it that the Manta's are a family business, and they were building him up to take the mantle.

Mordar

2019-01-18, 11:49 AM

Well to be honest, it is utterly useless on land where the majority of the League's adventures take place.

But we're still supposed to think that talking to wolves is oh-so-cool...wolves don't even live in 25% of the world!

Stupid wolves. Stupid Super Friends.

Because his father and his father's father was a pirate. They kinda make a big deal of it that the Manta's are a family business, and they were building him up to take the mantle.

BLACK MANTA: Well my father was a pirate. His father was a pirate. My mothers father was a pirate, my 3 brothers are pirates, 4 uncles on my fathers side...

MR. TROTTER: Ms. Vito your family is obviously qualified, but uh, have you ever worked as a pirate?

BLACK MANTA: Yeah On my father's ship, yeah.

- M

The Glyphstone

2019-01-19, 01:59 AM

But we're still supposed to think that talking to wolves is oh-so-cool...wolves don't even live in 25% of the world!

Stupid wolves. Stupid Super Friends.

BLACK MANTA: Well my father was a pirate. His father was a pirate. My mothers father was a pirate, my 3 brothers are pirates, 4 uncles on my fathers side...

MR. TROTTER: Ms. Vito your family is obviously qualified, but uh, have you ever worked as a pirate?

BLACK MANTA: Yeah On my father's ship, yeah.

- M

And his expertise in the movie is on general piratical knowledge?

Draconi Redfir

2019-01-20, 05:55 AM

And his expertise in the movie is on general piratical knowledge?

with the Atlantian technology no. I think it's fair to assume the guy has a degree in Engineering or something without question.

the point Mordar was trying to make was that Black Manta was a pirate not because he NEEDED to be a pirate, but because it was the family legacy. His father was a pirate, and his father's father, probably even earlier then that. He grew up learning and knowing how to be a pirate, and it was so ingrained into his family that it became his carrier path.

It's not like his engineering prowess wasn't hinted at either, when we first see him he's already sporting fancy wrist-blades, and his whole crew is in non-conventional armor. Entirely possible he made that stuff himself, hell maybe his father even helped him.

Maybe the family DOES need piracy to survive, and the Engineering prowess comes from that. When you have so little, you need to make do with what you have. And when what you have is other people's technology, you need to find ways to make it work for what you want it to do, even if it's not designed with that task in mind. (i.e. putting the barrel of a gun into the eye-sockets of a helmet.)

Fyraltari

2019-01-20, 06:41 AM

Maybe he finds piracy more appealing than engineering. I mean, if you don't care about the dead people, which sounds more fun to you?

LaZodiac

2019-01-20, 08:55 AM

They also mention that his grandfather stole an experimental government ship, so presumably they had a LOT of time figuring out that ****.

Also, funny that Black Manta with a ton of resources and assistance from Atlantis gets questioned on his skills, and Tony Stark can build a suit IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS! but doesn't get questioned about it at all. Hmm. Wonder why.

The Jack

2019-01-20, 09:37 AM

Also, funny that Black Manta with a ton of resources and assistance from Atlantis gets questioned on his skills, and Tony Stark can build a suit IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS! but doesn't get questioned about it at all. Hmm. Wonder why.

If you're going to say race, you're a fool.

Tony stark makes things for fun, his garage is filled with odd hotrods and such. He uses not only american technology to build his own suit, but his own company's technology which he presumably had a hand in designing. He has an assistant, and his captives have had a go at getting him everything he needs. He also had weeks or months doing this stuff.

BM had Alien weapons which he took apart and configured into a helmet. Those original weapons greatly exceeded the size of his helmet. There are no other instances in this film which suggest he's a tech head (comparing the instilation of arm blades to reverse engineering alien tech... that's stupid, and nothing says he's the one in that vast crew to have done that)

I really doubt Orm gave him an instruction manual.

GloatingSwine

2019-01-20, 09:37 AM

Also, funny that Black Manta with a ton of resources and assistance from Atlantis gets questioned on his skills, and Tony Stark can build a suit IN A CAVE! WITH A BOX OF SCRAPS! but doesn't get questioned about it at all. Hmm. Wonder why.

To an extent, it's because people knew a little bit about Tony Stark and one of the things they knew was "designs and builds super suits".

Whereas nobody really knows much about Aquaman villains at all, so despite Black Manta's engineering genius being a longstanding part of the character they don't know to expect it.

The Glyphstone

2019-01-20, 12:02 PM

with the Atlantian technology no. I think it's fair to assume the guy has a degree in Engineering or something without question.

the point Mordar was trying to make was that Black Manta was a pirate not because he NEEDED to be a pirate, but because it was the family legacy. His father was a pirate, and his father's father, probably even earlier then that. He grew up learning and knowing how to be a pirate, and it was so ingrained into his family that it became his carrier path.

It's not like his engineering prowess wasn't hinted at either, when we first see him he's already sporting fancy wrist-blades, and his whole crew is in non-conventional armor. Entirely possible he made that stuff himself, hell maybe his father even helped him.

Maybe the family DOES need piracy to survive, and the Engineering prowess comes from that. When you have so little, you need to make do with what you have. And when what you have is other people's technology, you need to find ways to make it work for what you want it to do, even if it's not designed with that task in mind. (i.e. putting the barrel of a gun into the eye-sockets of a helmet.)

I wasn't trying to make a point, I was just carrying on Mordar's joke.:smallcool:

Friv

2019-01-21, 02:42 PM

BM had Alien weapons which he took apart and configured into a helmet. Those original weapons greatly exceeded the size of his helmet.

To be fair, he doesn't just turn it into a helmet. The charging mechanism of the weapon was adapted into the spine of his suit, so that the gun essentially braces itself along his back and then curves to fire forward out of the helmet.

It's a bit of a stretch, but no more so than anything else anyone else in the movie does. (And honestly, compared to Arthur speaking fluent Italian and knowing the Roman emperors and heroes by heart but not knowing that Pinocchio was a book, it's not much.)

The Jack

2019-01-21, 04:36 PM

Knowing Pinocchio is a book is useless trivia not relevant to the modern age or kingship. Roman kings has some relevance.

Language skills can be excused with -magical fish man- and -can access brainwaves of the very diverse aquatic life of the planet and can understand marry poppins the eldlritch kaiju so human languages probably aren't that hard-

I would'nt have a problem with black manta at all if he was in fact white*, as I am a racist had more time establishing his tech genius. Be it something simple like using a robot on the sub or his father praising his son's abilities when he bequeaths the knife.

*could you imagine if he was white, and we called him White Manta? Granted, It's an old name(?**) and black manta sounds both really cool and nowhere near as redundant as black panther***.

** His father said 'manta' if I recall, not 'black manta'
*** The Panthera scientific turm includes all cats, and the name panther is not exclusive to the black variety, but in common English we assume melanin when someone uses the term panther.

I'm not a racist, please don't ban me.

Fyraltari

2019-01-21, 05:20 PM

Knowing Pinocchio is a book is useless trivia not relevant to the modern age or kingship. Roman kings has some relevance.
It's kind of surprising, but not particularly unbelievable, many people don't know that films they like a lot are adaptations. Hell I guess it's true for each of us here for at least one movies.

Language skills can be excused with -magical fish man- and -can access brainwaves of the very diverse aquatic life of the planet and can understand marry poppins the eldlritch kaiju so human languages probably aren't that hard-
Or, maybe, I know this sounds crazy but hear me out, just maybe he learned Italian in school?

I would'nt have a problem with black manta at all if he was in fact white*, as I am a racist had more time establishing his tech genius. Be it something simple like using a robot on the sub or his father praising his son's abilities when he bequeaths the knife.
Or maybe piloting a high-tech submarines and wearing high-tech body armour?

This scene was there to establish Manta's tinkering skills to explain the unique look and in case they need it in a sequel, that's it? it's not a big payoff that needed set up why are people focused on that?

The Jack

2019-01-21, 05:44 PM

Or, maybe, I know this sounds crazy but hear me out, just maybe he learned Italian in school?
Italian and Russian in the same school? His Kiwi dad in an american lighthouse was near such a school? I'm pretty sure they're meant to establish that he's an international guy.

Or maybe piloting a high-tech submarines and wearing high-tech body armour?

A high tech submarine's going to be made for ease of use. Cars are actually easier to drive now than they were a hundred years ago. For all you know an Xbox controller pilots the thing (something the US military currently uses with drones) Plus any member of his large crew could've been that expert who cracked the sub
The Armour was probably stolen with the sub. They've got a similar style to them.

I'm not saying Manta shouldn't be able to do these things; I think they should be expanded on in the sequel, but I think they did the character a disservice by not establishing it a little more. When the inevitable sequel rolls round or maybe an extended dvd, I'm sure they'll do more for him.

Fyraltari

2019-01-21, 05:51 PM

Italian and Russian in the same school? His Kiwi dad in an american lighthouse was near such a school? I'm pretty sure they're meant to establish that he's an international guy.
I dodn't remember the Russian. And I'm not sure his dad is supposed to be a New Zealander even if he's played by one.

A high tech submarine's going to be made for ease of use. Cars are actually easier to drive now than they were a hundred years ago. For all you know an Xbox controller pilots the thing (something the US military currently uses with drones) Plus any member of his large crew could've been that expert who cracked the sub
The Armour was probably stolen with the sub. They've got a similar style to them.

I'm not saying Manta shouldn't be able to do these things; I think they should be expanded on in the sequel, but I think they did the character a disservice by not establishing it a little more. When the inevitable sequel rolls round or maybe an extended dvd, I'm sure they'll do more for him.
Generally speaking Manta is underused in this movie. It's already surprising they showed him welding the suit, rather than have it delivered in its final state by Orm.

LaZodiac

2019-01-21, 05:57 PM

I dodn't remember the Russian. And I'm not sure his dad is supposed to be a New Zealander even if he's played by one.

Generally speaking Manta is underused in this movie. It's already surprising they showed him welding the suit, rather than have it delivered in its final state by Orm.

I'm pretty sure his dad is meant to be a New Zealander, given he allows his son to get those tattoos that are fairly culturally significant to them.

They played Manta the way they did explicitly because they're setting up for him to be a bigger threat in the future. Remember, he's the only person in this entire film actually able to seriously threaten Aquaman.

GloatingSwine

2019-01-21, 06:14 PM

I would'nt have a problem with black manta at all if he was in fact white*, as I am a racist had more time establishing his tech genius. Be it something simple like using a robot on the sub or his father praising his son's abilities when he bequeaths the knife.

That's why Zodi and I mentioned Tony Stark.

Because Iron Man does nothing to establish his tech genius until he builds a super suit in a cave with a box of scraps. And when the first movie came out the majority of the audience couldn't be assumed to know that going in because he was a C lister that wasn't attractive enough for anyone to buy the rights to in the great Marvel IP fire sale of the '90s.

But the same criticism isn't levelled at it or his character.

The Jack

2019-01-21, 06:30 PM

That's why Zodi and I mentioned Tony Stark.

Because Iron Man does nothing to establish his tech genius until he builds a super suit in a cave with a box of scraps. And when the first movie came out the majority of the audience couldn't be assumed to know that going in because he was a C lister that wasn't attractive enough for anyone to buy the rights to in the great Marvel IP fire sale of the '90s.

But the same criticism isn't levelled at it or his character.

I addressed that, but I could do it simpler;
Tony stark's the head of a weapons tech company and makes an advanced weapon. His father before him also built technology, and the arc reactor is an improvement over his father's design. TS is also a billionare and thus can get the best education
Black Manta's a third generation pirate with some well trained pros on his team and some impressive steals. He reverse engineers an alien technology.

Do you not see the huge difference?

Fyraltari

2019-01-21, 06:36 PM

I'm pretty sure his dad is meant to be a New Zealander, given he allows his son to get those tattoos that are fairly culturally significant to them.
If you say so.

They played Manta the way they did explicitly because they're setting up for him to be a bigger threat in the future. Remember, he's the only person in this entire film actually able to seriously threaten Aquaman.
Orm is much more dangerous threat to Aquaman in the movie, even in close combat.

That's why Zodi and I mentioned Tony Stark.

Because Iron Man does nothing to establish his tech genius until he builds a super suit in a cave with a box of scraps. And when the first movie came out the majority of the audience couldn't be assumed to know that going in because he was a C lister that wasn't attractive enough for anyone to buy the rights to in the great Marvel IP fire sale of the '90s.

But the same criticism isn't levelled at it or his character.
The box of scraps is supposed to be an establishing moment (besides we know he can build stuff because that's why the idiot terrorists keep him alive and give him stuff) and beng an ingeneer is his "superpower", that's kind of central to his character and we see him experiment during the whole movie, so yes I think they sell it prety well.

EDIT:

I addressed that, but I could do it simpler;
Tony stark's the head of a weapons tech company and makes an advanced weapon. His father before him also built technology, and the arc reactor is an improvement over his father's design. TS is also a billionare and thus can get the best education
Black Manta's a third generation pirate with some well trained pros on his team and some impressive steals. He reverse engineers an alien technology.

Do you not see the huge difference?
He didn't reverse-engineered it. He modified the canon, but I'm pretty sure he has no idea how it works (as in converts water to fire-power) and couldn't build more on his own.

LaZodiac

2019-01-21, 08:13 PM

I addressed that, but I could do it simpler;
Tony stark's the head of a weapons tech company and makes an advanced weapon. His father before him also built technology, and the arc reactor is an improvement over his father's design. TS is also a billionare and thus can get the best education
Black Manta's a third generation pirate with some well trained pros on his team and some impressive steals. He reverse engineers an alien technology.

Do you not see the huge difference?

Being the head of a major tech company doesn't mean you're actually an engineer. Tony Stark is the exception, not the rule.

The difference is that one is a multi-billion dollar mechanist and the other is from a line of thrown away war veterans the government thought couldn't steal their super sub.

Orm is much more dangerous threat to Aquaman in the movie, even in close combat.

The box of scraps is supposed to be an establishing moment (besides we know he can build stuff because that's why the idiot terrorists keep him alive and give him stuff) and beng an ingeneer is his "superpower", that's kind of central to his character and we see him experiment during the whole movie, so yes I think they sell it prety well.

EDIT:

He didn't reverse-engineered it. He modified the canon, but I'm pretty sure he has no idea how it works (as in converts water to fire-power) and couldn't build more on his own.

While it's true that underwater Orm was kicking Aquaman's ass, only Manta made him bleed. In terms of raw power, Black Manta was the strongest thing Aquaman fought that wasn't an explicit test for his kingshp.

I actually really LIKE the box of scraps scene, I'm just showing the contrast. We see the super tech sub and Black Manta with his more advanced suit than the rest of his buddies, it's made pretty clear he's a tech guy and if I recall his father even wonders why he's still pirating. But he gets dinged for his skills, whereas Tony Stark doesn't. Just sayin'. And i mean terrorists kidnapping a rich businessman makes sense to me regardless of his skill as an engineer or not.

Anyway I really like Black Manta because of this film, and him fiddling with the Atlantean tech reminded me of Stark trying to figure out the boosters.

The Jack

2019-01-21, 10:04 PM

Being the head of a major tech company doesn't mean you're actually an engineer. Tony Stark is the exception, not the rule.
.

This is entirely true.
However, the terrorists assumed he could build them a rocket. They wouldn't do that if he knew nothing.
Stark's got so much for him; Robots in the house, custom cars....

Manta is done injustice mostly by there not being enough manta. Since people like money, there'll be another aquaman film, and I'm sure manta can be everything we want of him.

Manta and orm to last at least four more movies provided that they're financially successful.

lord_khaine

2019-01-22, 12:08 PM

While it's true that underwater Orm was kicking Aquaman's ass, only Manta made him bleed. In terms of raw power, Black Manta was the strongest thing Aquaman fought that wasn't an explicit test for his kingshp.

Well.. but almost the whole setting of the movie is Athur being tested for kingship.. :smalltongue:
When you eleminate the eldrich horror or the pure-blooded atlantean, then yes your left with a normal human holding a large gun in a silly way.

Though honestly, what annoyed me most was that Orm for no reason were handed over to the surface to stand trial.
What the heck? As such he is outside every elses jurisdiction.
His crimes mainly took place in the 7 kingdoms. Thats the logical place to put him on trial.

Fyraltari

2019-01-22, 12:19 PM

While it's true that underwater Orm was kicking Aquaman's ass, only Manta made him bleed. In terms of raw power, Black Manta was the strongest thing Aquaman fought that wasn't an explicit test for his kingshp.
Is it more impressive to be beaten by Aquaman once, come back, make him bleed but still lose the rematch or making Aquaman run for his life, breaking his weapon and lose the rematch? I don't know.

Though honestly, what annoyed me most was that Orm for no reason were handed over to the surface to stand trial.
What the heck? As such he is outside every elses jurisdiction.
His crimes mainly took place in the 7 kingdoms. Thats the logical place to put him on trial.
He was? It looked like Atlantis was still a secret at the end.

lord_khaine

2019-01-23, 08:25 AM

He was? It looked like Atlantis was still a secret at the end.

It seems like the is a conspiracy of silence around Atlantis. Because things should be messed up enough after Orm for people to take its possible existance serious.

And i got the understanding Arthur meant the surface world. Since it was there laws he broke.
I dont think Arthur knew of any Atlantean rules he had broken.

random11

2019-02-08, 02:42 PM

Watched the movie yesterday,

I can nitpick here and there about plot holes or general silliness, but overall I enjoyed it, so I don't really care about the minor things.

The only thing that really bothered me is the relationship between Arthur and Mara.
If I'm not mistaken, all the events in the movie since they first met until the end took about a day, so needless to say, that felt a bit rushed.

I am glad that both Mara and his mother remained kick S characters from start to end, without the writers feeling the need to kidnap one of them.

One last thing I don't understand is very simple:
Arthur is a classic super hero. Protects civilians during his fight, tries to do good, sometimes fails.
It's nothing new or unique, so why was it so hard to figure out that this is what Superman was supposed to be?

The Glyphstone

2019-02-08, 03:01 PM

Zach Snyder didnt write this one.

lord_khaine

2019-02-08, 04:21 PM

Aquaman is the hero we deserves but did not get :P

Sapphire Guard

2019-02-08, 06:36 PM

Not really. If this was a Superman movie

The internet would be exploding over the thousands that were killed by that Tsunami.It's just a double standard.

Re Arthur and Mera, Mera spends the entire film making derogatory comments about Arthur's intelligence and skills, I'm not sure that's going to be a healthy relationship.

LaZodiac

2019-02-08, 07:43 PM

Bartmanhomer

2019-02-08, 07:46 PM

I feel like that Aquaman is Mid-Tier Superhero. He's very average and only focuses on water (Hence the name Aquaman)

Legato Endless

2019-02-08, 10:21 PM

Outrageous. Aquaman has heart, and heart is the only superpower a hero needs. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMIuvZXQu4)

Bartmanhomer

2019-02-08, 10:25 PM

Outrageous. Aquaman has heart, and heart is the only superpower a hero needs. (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JiMIuvZXQu4)

Most Superhero has heart. :smile:

Xyril

2019-02-08, 11:55 PM

Do you not see the huge difference?

I see a difference, but not a huge one. It's subtle enough that I think you're being a bit harsh towards those folks who don't see it the same way.

To me, the more important difference is in what happened later in the movie, and what happened before the movie. Iron-Man was a Marvel mainstay: Between his various popular series, his prominent role in Mighty Avengers and other flagship comic series, and his occasional crossover into cartoons and other media, even a lot of non-comic fans know Iron Man and his deal. In contrast, Black Manta was really only well known to more devoted DC followers. (Did he even make an appearance in JLA or some other DC animated universe stuff?)

Also, as others have mentioned, while pre-cave Iron-Man didn't really establish him as anything other than a celebrity CEO--a role that doesn't generally imply tech genius--they spend pretty much the rest of the movie retroactively establishing his technical credentials. ("Oh, by the way, that's the borderline sentient AI assistant he built, because that's what he does.") Aquaman didn't spend so much time doing so, probably because the movie isn't called Black Manta. Putting all this together, it's certainly understandable that Black Manta would get a bit more skepticism from a general movie audience.

As for the plausibility of everything else you mentioned, I think maybe you're protesting a bit too much. Wealth is an advantage--having a parent who can be a mentor is a bigger advantage. But having spent a few years around a couple of really good universities, I can tell you that wealth and resources aren't a requisite for genius. But being part of the 1% give you more opportunities, and increase your probability of making it, all else equal? Probably. But if you pick a random genius (however you want to define genius), chances are he or she came from the less privileged 99% because, well, there are 99 times more of them.

All of those arguments you make to justify your skepticism of Black Manta's competence? You could argue the same thing for Tony Stark. He had a strained relationship with his father, who really wanted Tony to follow in his footsteps. In real life, that more often than not leads the son to rebel against what his father wanted, and not to put his heart and soul into following the path laid out before him. The children of billionaires have access to the best teachers and plenty of toys to tinker with, but they often lack that outside kick in the pants that often drives greatness. Iron-man gave a great nod to this. Tony already making Elon Musk look like Wile E. Coyote when his main motivations were boredom, making money, and showing off his intelligence, but it was only after he was literally inventing for his life that he achieved his greatest accomplishments.

Also, while in real life pirates are pretty much always disadvantaged, desperate rogues who picked a life of crime mostly because they didn't have any better options, in the comic books they're usually a disproportionately important power due to some special knowledge, technology, wealth, or other advantage the stumbled upon during their adventures.

Sapphire Guard

2019-02-09, 02:33 PM

No we wouldn't. The tsunamis were done by the BAD GUYS. That's different!

So was the world engine.

Beleriphon

2019-02-09, 04:59 PM

On the subject of the movie itself I like that while regular human henchmen were pretty disposable they had actually good henchmen who could fight the hero on even terms despite still being nameless mooks. It's nice seeing henchmen actually use all of their fancy supervillain equipment properly and actually injure a hero.

Black Manta was really cool. Him Jailbreaking his armor and rebuilding it was nice. I fully expect him and Jessie Eisenberg to do a Legion of Doom at some point, or else have him in Suicide Squad 2.

Already established in Justice League. The last scene is a Slade Wilson, you know Deathstroke, meeting Lex Luthor. Probably one of the few characters in DC that can Xanatos Gambit with Batman and win. Plus he has one of the better villain looks in the comics, and it already translates well to the screen.

YouTube for the clip. https://youtu.be/Twanwp3F7Z4

lowfyr01

2019-02-11, 04:24 PM

No we wouldn't. The tsunamis were done by the BAD GUYS. That's different!

If only it would be so simple:smallfrown:

lowfyr01

2019-02-11, 04:26 PM

One last thing I don't understand is very simple:
Arthur is a classic super hero. Protects civilians during his fight, tries to do good, sometimes fails.
It's nothing new or unique, so why was it so hard to figure out that this is what Superman was supposed to be?

They finally loosed up the dark and gritty rule. Can be said they finally learned that not erverything needs to be Watchmen. If only they learned it sooner.

The Jack

2019-02-11, 04:37 PM

They finally loosed up the dark and gritty rule. Can be said they finally learned that not erverything needs to be Watchmen. If only they learned it before superman's first film when they began this mess.

I still wonder what superdrug they were on to give complete control to Zack Snyder, Was his only competition Micheal bay or Uwe bowl? Snyder's an awesome cinematographer, but he'd clearly expressed a philosophy very much against what superman's all about. Like surely big studio execs who're making billion dollar decisions together would at least get together and watch a few cherry picked Superman:The Animated series episodes before they decide on something so monumental. I realise they allegedly didn't want a cinematic universe, but they don't want to thoroughly trash their own chances.

nightwyrm

2019-02-11, 08:04 PM

Xyril

2019-02-11, 08:30 PM

I still wonder what superdrug they were on to give complete control to Zack Snyder, Was his only competition Micheal bay or Uwe bowl? Snyder's an awesome cinematographer, but he'd clearly expressed a philosophy very much against what superman's all about.

The thing is, there were a lot of folks who sincerely worried that "what superman's all about," at least as he was closer to the Silver Age of comics, wouldn't play well with a modern audience. And for a lot of stories and characters, a drastic shift in tone from the source material seemed to be precisely what it took to appeal to modern audiences.

Some of the stuff they did with Superman in the comics--particularly arising from the shift away from a more rose-tinted view of the government and people, where Superman's has to reconcile his idealism with the prevalence of literal xenophobia and ruthlessly authoritarian parts of the government trying control and exploit powered individuals, is very much outside the realm of the first Superman stories I was introduced to. However, done well they actually produce some really compelling storytelling that, in its own way, stays true to what people love about the character.

Hindsight being 20-20, Snyder was a horrible decision. However, after the failure of the very bland Superman Returns and the positive reception to a slightly darker and edgier Superman (which I guess started post-Crisis or so?), it's understandable that they'd be willing to take some risks.

The Jack

2019-02-12, 11:58 AM

The Glyphstone

2019-02-12, 12:21 PM

Foresight wise Snyder should've been a known bad move. There is no 'this is hindsight'. The guy's got a backlog with a trajectory and if they ever did interviews for directors he would've been filtered right out; the dude's the entire australian coastline of red flags in a person.

Not to studio eyes, maybe.

Dawn of the Dead remake netted 102mil against a 26mil budget. Good start.
300 grossed 450mil against a 65mil budget. Great return.
Watchmen....185mil against a 130mil budget. Not so good anymore, but maybe a fluke?
Sucker Punch....90mil against 82mil. Bwah-wah-wah.....

So at worst, he was 50-50 on high-profit returns, and 50-50 on 'profitable comic book movie'. To an exec, that might not look bad.

Enter Man of Steel - 668mil on a 225mil budget. Execs are thinking 'wooboy, he's back on track'. And we know where that ended up...."MAAAAARRRRRTHHHAAAAAAAAAAA"....

Mordar

2019-02-12, 12:40 PM

They finally loosed up the dark and gritty rule. Can be said they finally learned that not erverything needs to be Watchmen. If only they learned it sooner.

Sadly (to me) they seem to be stuck in sort of a bipolar situation. The character is either Batman or Spider-Man...dark and gritty or wisecracker. Wonder Woman seems to be the only character that isn't stuck on one of the poles.

I wonder if they might've taken the wrong lesson from the Dark Knight trilogy. The Dark Knight was grim and gritty and made big bucks. So let's make Superman grim and gritty and it'll make big bucks!

Yeah, bit miss. I understand what Xyril is saying, but Superman is still supposed to believe in the good of man. Still supposed to be the light and the paragon.

Of course, the Snyder Superman was doomed from the beginning. The moment Jonathan Kent suggests Clark needs to hide his powers and not be a hero is the moment we know Snyderman will never be Superman. But I digress.

Aquaman needed a hard reboot. This seems to have done it. Still a pretty blank slate to draw on, if they choose to pursue more Aquastories.

- M

The Jack

2019-02-12, 02:41 PM

Not to studio eyes, maybe.

Dawn of the Dead remake netted 102mil against a 26mil budget. Good start.
300 grossed 450mil against a 65mil budget. Great return.
Watchmen....185mil against a 130mil budget. Not so good anymore, but maybe a fluke?
Sucker Punch....90mil against 82mil. Bwah-wah-wah.....

So at worst, he was 50-50 on high-profit returns, and 50-50 on 'profitable comic book movie'. To an exec, that might not look bad.

Enter Man of Steel - 668mil on a 225mil budget. Execs are thinking 'wooboy, he's back on track'. And we know where that ended up...."MAAAAARRRRRTHHHAAAAAAAAAAA"....

So the dude actually was getting less bang-for-buck each movie he made till MoS
I know execs are aliens and all, but I don't think the rational is near good...

Plus, it seems to me that first products of an awaited sequence of movies are always big, even with a little skepticism. They're often the 'safe' one and then the next movies take risks. If the first movie was solid the next film is going to be huge, and if it's shakey it's going to be awful. Batman begins was the safe nolan film, The force awakens was the prelude of horror for star wars. Even though movies like man of steel or TFA do well you can kinda see the cracks/that someone has no idea what they're doing.

"Fan reaction was maybe not, perhaps we should at least closely supervise the next one. "

The Glyphstone

2019-02-12, 03:04 PM

Execs never listen to fans. They only listen to green.

Clertar

2019-02-12, 04:05 PM

Are Aquaman fans happy with movie Aquaman? I've never followed him much in the comics, but in bigger arcs or in sporadic issues back in the day he was more of a proud, stoic king of the seas. Maybe more like Black Panther in terms of personalities shown in the MCU. Definitely I didn't see him like a mix of Jack Sparrow and Indiana Jones.

Sapphire Guard

2019-02-12, 04:25 PM

873 million for BVS wasn't bad at all. Justice League was the only true failure, and that wasn't because of Snyder.

The Jack

2019-02-12, 04:27 PM

873 million for BVS wasn't bad at all. Justice League was the only true failure, and that wasn't because of Snyder.

It was because of snyder. Nothing murders and rapes hype like a hated preceding film. After BvS nobody had any faith in JL

lowfyr01

2019-02-12, 04:50 PM

lowfyr01

2019-02-12, 04:53 PM

873 million for BVS wasn't bad at all. Justice League was the only true failure, and that wasn't because of Snyder.

The problem was BvS was not well liked to put it mildly and the next movie is already on thin ice. Adding the change in director and getting a positive reaction would have been nearly impossible.

Sapphire Guard

2019-02-13, 05:11 PM

Ehh, I feel like JL went through enough production troubles to kill three movies. The two hour limit, Whedon's takeover mid production, the reshoots, that stupid thing with the mustache... it's a minor miracle that production kept going at all.

Raimun

2019-02-18, 11:02 AM

I think Aquaman is the best DCEU-movie. Wonder Woman was excellent too but I'd rate Aquaman a bit higher.

When I say that Aquaman is excellent, I mean, it's excellent as a superhero movie. I would say it's one of the best superhero movies ever made and I've never even read any Aquaman comics or even read a comic that has Aquaman in it. And I'm totally a Marvel guy. Ultimately, I don't know how faithful the movie was to the comics but after the movie, I researched the character and his adventures a bit and from the surface, it looks like it got most things straight. Aquaman even looked like a metalhead in some of the comics too.

The movie was just great fun, the action was excellent and the underwater setting was rather unique. The story is nothing unique but it doesn't really need to be since it was executed so well. The pacing was well handled too: I'd say there were no boring scenes in the movie.

Speaking to fish has never been this cool.