Homebrew Trident: Thoughts?

[Damon_Tor]

So a player of mine is a triton champion great weapon fighter. I'd like to encourage him to use a trident, but of course there's virtually no mechanical reason for him to do so. I'd like it if the weapon somehow reflected the fact that it has three tines, and this is what I came up with:


Trident - Martial Melee Weapon
Damage: 1d4 Piercing
Thrown 20/60, Versatile 1d6, Special
Special: When you attack with a trident and beat the defender's AC by 3 or more, roll an additional weapon damage die. If you beat the defender's AC by 6 or more, roll another additional weapon damage die.

So its a gamble: some hits deal lower damage than expected (1d4/1d6) some do fairly standard damage (2d4/2d6) and some do more (3d4/3d6) Of course crits are extra nice, because crits are almost always going to have that big three tine damage to multiply. Plays really nicely with the champion's expanded crit range and with great weapon fighting, by design.

Thoughts?

[CTurbo]

It's a neat idea for sure. I say give it a try.

[ProsecutorGodot]

First off, I'm sure that you mean the Great Weapon Fighting Style, but I'd still like some clarification on that since you use both "Great Weapon Fighter" and "Great Weapon Master" and those have very different mechanical implications.

Secondly, I'm interested to know if the player is as enthusiastic about being pushed into using a Trident as you are to push it on them. The idea is cool, but I personally wouldn't want my DM to be flavoring my character for me.

As for the Trident: It's fine, you're not going to break a whole lot. It's comparable to a Double Bladed Scimitar with how you've laid it out, and as useful as those are they haven't been making the world explode by dealing 2d4 damage per hit. The special mechanic is a bit finicky though. It's comparable to the -5/+10 from GWM, which is a bit off putting. I would instead keep the weapon's base stats but have it deal an additional 4 (the average of 2d4) damage on a critical hit, kind of like a Sword of Sharpness.

I'm sure somebody with more experience with monster armor calculations could give you a better answer on how good or bad the special mechanic would actually be.

[Scarytincan]

Creative and logical. I like it, could maybe make that a feat and combine with some stuff from spear master feat from UA if wanted also, but certainly looks good as is to me. I'm all for more variety and reasons to take different weapons

[Kadesh]

That's a lot of additional rolling given GWF. That is going to get old quick.

[Scarytincan]

That's a lot of additional rolling given GWF. That is going to get old quick.

Iirc, the fighting style was clarified to only reroll one die per attack no?

[Damon_Tor]

First off, I'm sure that you mean the Great Weapon Fighting Style, but I'd still like some clarification on that since you use both "Great Weapon Fighter" and "Great Weapon Master" and those have very different mechanical implications.

Secondly, I'm interested to know if the player is as enthusiastic about being pushed into using a Trident as you are to push it on them. The idea is cool, but I personally wouldn't want my DM to be flavoring my character for me.

As for the Trident: It's fine, you're not going to break a whole lot. It's comparable to a Double Bladed Scimitar with how you've laid it out, and as useful as those are they haven't been making the world explode by dealing 2d4 damage per hit. The special mechanic is a bit finicky though. It's comparable to the -5/+10 from GWM, which is a bit off putting. I would instead keep the weapon's base stats but have it deal an additional 4 (the average of 2d4) damage on a critical hit, kind of like a Sword of Sharpness.

I'm sure somebody with more experience with monster armor calculations could give you a better answer on how good or bad the special mechanic would actually be.

I meant the fighting style, not the feat.

And he's into it. He started with a trident then switched to a greatsword. He still carries the trident around and for a while looked for excuses to throw it.


Iirc, the fighting style was clarified to only reroll one die per attack no?

No, they stated that RAI was that only the weapons damage dice get rerolled, not dice from other sources like smites and maneuvers.

[ad_hoc]

That will be tedious and slow down play.

The best house rules are simple.

Change the 1d8 versatile to 2d4. Done.

[Damon_Tor]

That will be tedious and slow down play.

The best house rules are simple.

Change the 1d8 versatile to 2d4. Done.

3 dice doesn't seem that bad, even 6 on a crit. The rogue rolls way more dice than that. Or maybe I'm not understanding the complaint? Do you object to the idea of "succeed by X" mechanics?

[Aett_Thorn]

The Trident is one of those weapons the Devs just gone wrong. At the very least, it should have been 1d8/1d10 versatile, thrown. But honestly, I think that it should have lost the thrown tag, since it’s very front-heavy, and then gained some other, special trait, like being able to grapple after a critical hit or something.

I like the OP’s idea, but combined with the fighting style allowing for a reroll of 1s and 2s might be a bit much with rolling d4s

[Damon_Tor]

I'm sure somebody with more experience with monster armor calculations could give you a better answer on how good or bad the special mechanic would actually be.

I'm working on the math. The weapon underperforms vs high AC and overperforms vs low AC, which is fine in general, and makes perfect sense. Right now it looks too effective: I'm probably going to go ahead and bump it to Succeed by 3 for 2d4, succeed by 6 for 3d4. This would make "hit on an 11" the break-even point of the weapon, where it does a standard amount of average damage ignoring crits, so that would be AC 16 for a typical level 1 fighter. If the AC goes higher than that the weapon underperforms, if it goes lower it overperforms. Then as the fighter gets stronger that break-even point rises (but so does enemy AC).

EDIT: OP edited to reflect that change.

[Damon_Tor]

I like the OP’s idea, but combined with the fighting style allowing for a reroll of 1s and 2s might be a bit much with rolling d4s

Well if you're using the fighting style you've got to be two-handing it, which means d6s, not d4s

[Kadesh]

Iirc, the fighting style was clarified to only reroll one die per attack no?

No. Unless there is a source for that.

[Imbalance]

Lemme guess, somebody wants to be Aquaman? Not a bad idea for a build.

As far as tweaking tridents goes, I don't think they need much. If you're trying to mimic Poseidon's Ala DC Comics, however, that's a tall order and probably game-breaking. Even if I'm wrong and this isn't an Aquaman build, it might be more interesting to say that, instead of extra dice, on a successful versatile attack it grants a grappling effect for a round.

[Hadoken]

Trident - Martial Melee Weapon
Damage: 1d4 Piercing
Thrown 20/60, Versatile 1d6, Special
Special: When you attack with a trident and beat the defender's AC by 3 or more, roll an additional weapon damage die. If you beat the defender's AC by 6 or more, roll another additional weapon damage die.

Thoughts?

Seems finicky. Depending on how you play things at your table, whether you tell your players what AC the monsters have or not, you'll be playing a lot of "mother may I?" with this trident-wielder. I would just increase the damage to 1d8/1d10 versatile and be done with it as others have said.

If you want to give this player something special, maybe homebrew a feat for them to make using nets more appealing. Something that lets them throw a net in the first round of combat and still attack. If you have munchkins for players, make sure to add a limiter to how often they can use it so they're not throwing nets every round.

[Tanarii]

The Trident is one of those weapons the Devs just gone wrong.
I used to think this. Then I realized ... it's probably only there so the three* magical tridents in the DMG have stats equal to a spear, but a more limited PC user base. In other words, I'm fairly sure it's intentional it's worse that it "should be".

Just a theory of course. No confirmation from the Devs.

*Count 'em folks! There's a Trident of Warning pictured under Weapon of Warning.

[Hadoken]

I used to think this. Then I realized ... it's probably only there so the three* magical tridents in the DMG have stats equal to a spear, but a more limited PC user base. In other words, I'm fairly sure it's intentional it's worse that it "should be".

Just a theory of course. No confirmation from the Devs.

*Count 'em folks! There's a Trident of Warning pictured under Weapon of Warning.

Mike Mearls talked about the trident briefly in one of his Happy Fun Hour live streams. I remember he was puzzled by it and, iirc, he pretty much said that it was an oversight that the trident doesn't make any sense to use over a spear since it costs more and weighs more.

[CTurbo]

I don't have a problem making it slightly more complicated but if people want a more simple approach, how about an extra damage die on a crit? Or maybe it crits on 19 or 20 and 19 gets one extra damage die and 20 gets 2 extra damage dice?

I homebrewed something for a trident in the past, but really just don't remember what it was lol

[Kadesh]

Mike Mearls talked about the trident briefly in one of his Happy Fun Hour live streams. I remember he was puzzled by it and, iirc, he pretty much said that it was an oversight that the trident doesn't make any sense to use over a spear since it costs more and weighs more.

Can't be disarmed and have it used against you as effectively.


I don't have a problem making it slightly more complicated but if people want a more simple approach, how about an extra damage die on a crit? Or maybe it crits on 19 or 20 and 19 gets one extra damage die and 20 gets 2 extra damage dice?

I homebrewed something for a trident in the past, but really just don't remember what it was lol
How about 'if you want to play a trident user, use a trident'?

[Ganymede]

There is really no need to make a trident so weird and divergent compared to other weapons. Why not just give it stats comparable to a longsword or battle axe?

[Tanarii]

I don't have a problem making it slightly more complicated but if people want a more simple approach, how about an extra damage die on a crit? Or maybe it crits on 19 or 20 and 19 gets one extra damage die and 20 gets 2 extra damage dice?
Some form of Brutal Critical seems thematic. I like it.


Mike Mearls talked about the trident briefly in one of his Happy Fun Hour live streams. I remember he was puzzled by it and, iirc, he pretty much said that it was an oversight that the trident doesn't make any sense to use over a spear since it costs more and weighs more.
Unsurprising. Meals was and is a big picture guy. He doesn't create very good specific mechanics, and he often doesn't know "his own" system. It clearly went through a lot of revisions by more technically inclined people during play test, and he hardly would have approved each and every one individually.

Otoh the weapons table has lots of silly things. 18 lb pikes that can attack at normal melee range & 18 heavy crossbows that can fire once every 1.5-3 seconds (with a feat) or even every six seconds (without) are some of the funnier ones to me. So it's entirely possible they thought it should be a gladiator (martial) weapon spear, but changing it to a d8 versatile (d10) thrown weapon would result in everyone and their mother with martial wp using it, which isn't thematic. And stopped there.

[Hadoken]

Here's the link (https://youtu.be/EeV5aZX1mqg?list=PLfS8QgUdeGYqNneY16sB2RFfWI40jlgI y&t=1943) to Mike Mearls talking about tridents specifically, but the whole video is pretty interesting if you've got time. Before the trident part, he spends some time expounding on the design philosophy around weapons in 5e.

If you don't have time, though, it boils down to they needed the trident for Sahuigans in the MM, so they copy-pasted the spear stats and then never got around to redesigning the trident because they didn't want to boost the damage die and make it the default best thrown weapon.

[Damon_Tor]

There is really no need to make a trident so weird and divergent compared to other weapons. Why not just give it stats comparable to a longsword or battle axe?

You could make identical a longsword, but then you couldn't throw it. And if you made it identical to a longsword except you could throw it then it would be strictly superior to a longsword.

IMO, every weapon should be "weird and divergent" in some way; weapons should be as divergent from one another as spells are. And there are already weird and divergent weapons in the game, weapons with special rules or with nothing else comparable, like the net, lance, and whip. I love them, I love it when fighters have multiple weapons and use different ones in different situations. I would love it if the fighter figures out that my homebrew trident overperforms vs low AC and underperforms vs high AC and switches weapons accordingly.

[Kadesh]

Comparable, not identical.

3.5 is calling if you want different. Different being 'Use a Spiked Chain'.

[iTreeby]

You could just drop magic tridents till he uses one?

[Damon_Tor]

Comparable, not identical.

I'm open to suggestions.

[Ganymede]

IMO, every weapon should be "weird and divergent" in some way; weapons should be as divergent from one another as spells are. And there are already weird and divergent weapons in the game, weapons with special rules or with nothing else comparable, like the net, lance, and whip. I love them, I love it when fighters have multiple weapons and use different ones in different situations. I would love it if the fighter figures out that my homebrew trident overperforms vs low AC and underperforms vs high AC and switches weapons accordingly.

All that does is encourage PCs to lug around a whole mess of weapons to use in the niche, gamist situations where they are optimal.

It doesn't do anything to let people tell stories with their weapons. Why use that warhammer made from your old smithing implement or the sword you found lying mysteriously at your feet when you had amnesia when you're just going to rotate through a bunch of mechanical bonuses?

[Kadesh]

I'm open to suggestions.

- Increase damage die simply to match that of a Longsword
- Give him Magic Tridents to use
- Balance encounters around trident use rather than GWM Greatsword
- tell the player to play the archetype he wants to play and not worry about 'optimizing'

The player wants his theme to be Aquaman. So let him. Why does he need to be coddled to run what he wants?

[Tanngrisnr]

I would simply introduce a magic trident in the game.

The magic turns a regular trident into a weapon with increased damage die - 1d8/1d10 (versatile). The trident would keep the thrown property, and damage is considered magic for bypassing regular weapon damage resistance. Maybe I'd add some cool effect, like "all damage dealt by this weapon on a critical hit is [element] damage", or a returning enchantment (that 5e lacks), or even give the weapon sometihing similiar to an Eldritch Knight's "weapon bond" ability. Require attunement.

As the DM, you have the power to not steal/destroy/take the weapon away from the player.

I know this is not the best solution, as it makes the character item dependant, but that's a solution I use in the games I DM.

[Willie the Duck]

You could make identical a longsword, but then you couldn't throw it. And if you made it identical to a longsword except you could throw it then it would be strictly superior to a longsword.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't have to be throwable. Exactly how far you should be able to throw a weapon in combat is clearly gamist, as you can absolutely throw a sword, throwing a dagger 60' and doing appreciable damage is folly, and trying to use real-world/historical logic on tridents really should point to the fact that they are tools forced into service mostly in gladiatorial battles where it was their ineffectiveness that was the selling point. One could simply rule that they don't have a throwing distance appreciably greater than a sword, so in game terms none. Or, alternatively, swap out the versatile feature for throwability. There doesn't need to be an increased damage level dealt by wielding it in two hands.



IMO, every weapon should be "weird and divergent" in some way; weapons should be as divergent from one another as spells are. And there are already weird and divergent weapons in the game, weapons with special rules or with nothing else comparable, like the net, lance, and whip. I love them, I love it when fighters have multiple weapons and use different ones in different situations. I would love it if the fighter figures out that my homebrew trident overperforms vs low AC and underperforms vs high AC and switches weapons accordingly.

This is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but clearly 5e does not fit this model overall, regardless of the trident.

[olskool]

I don't even agree with the RAW Trident/Military Fork (they are nearly identical in real life performance). I think that the multiple tines should make the damage either 1D6+2 or 2D4 for a heavy weapon or 1D4+2 or 2D3 for a light weapon (like a farmer's pitch fork).

[Damon_Tor]

This is a perfectly reasonable position to take, but clearly 5e does not fit this model overall, regardless of the trident.

No, but there are examples of divergent weapons already in the game; the system isn't entirely homogeneous. Another weapon that operates under different expectations isn't inherently contrary to 5e design philosophy.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

How about 'if you want to play a trident user, use a trident'?

So much truth here. ^

But I don't see anything wrong with the OP's idea except as others have said it's probably a bit over-tuned. If other players are getting equally over-tuned items or moments (be it combat or roleplay going better than it probably should) then I think you're fine. If you like it, the player likes it, and the party doesn't hate either of you for it then you're fine.

[TheAxeman]

I was actually wondering about my character who if they threw a trident and beat the AC high enough and there was a chain attached to the trident could my character essentially pull enemies towards him? My DM didn't like it.

[Ganymede]

I was actually wondering about my character who if they threw a trident and beat the AC high enough and there was a chain attached to the trident could my character essentially pull enemies towards him? My DM didn't like it.

Yeah, I generally don't allow PCs to get ersatz class features in this way. I might let them improvise an action, but I won't let them fluff an attack to be an objectively better version without a serious opportunity cost, preparation, and ingenuity.

[Damon_Tor]

I was actually wondering about my character who if they threw a trident and beat the AC high enough and there was a chain attached to the trident could my character essentially pull enemies towards him? My DM didn't like it.

A 10 foot chain is 10 pounds, and that's just 10 feet. A 30 foot chain would be 30 pounds. Congratulations, you've modified the weight of your projectile by 8! Oh, and it's all weighted to the back. Oh, and you need it to unspool perfectly every time.

This is the sort of thing that would make a neat magical weapon though. Some kind of magic spider silk tether or something. I might actually steal that idea from you.