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View Full Version : What If? Mastering the divine and arcane parts of the snarl ritual.



WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-24, 09:24 PM
So this is going to sound dumb, but you'll have to excuse me as I don't know much about D&D.

It was suggest tsukiko was able to do both parts of the ritual, so would it be possible for xykon to do both parts, assuming certain conditions were met?

Xykon mentioned leveling up. this could mean a few things,

1- a standard level up as a sorceror.
2- a level up as a cleric or some other divine magic user
3-some random cross class he chose to pursue, with no plot relevance other than he was bored.
4- something else we neglected to come up with as a forum.
5-ridiculous theory that he has become a demi-god off screen.


1 seems most likely, so we can assume it to be the default position.

2 is not an unreasonable idea, but what god would accept him? can he become another class when he is so high level as he's epic level?

3 is not entirely unreasonable either, but why would he? maybe a bard or something to do for fun? but would a lich with no ability to laugh manically be able to sing?

4 is the last realistic possibility, in that we are going to be thrown for a loop, and we will be wrong and rich will come up with something we just didn't think of.

5...I don't even know what role demi gods play in this other than the dwarf demi god, and the other demi gods.

how does 1 become a demi god, and would xykon be able to do that? if he could, would a demi god be able to grant himself the divine part of the ritual to unleash the snarl? I don't know.

Caerulea
2018-12-24, 09:37 PM
0. Xykon mentioned gaining experiance, not leveling up. He likely wouldn't choose to blow a level of spellcasting on some other class if he did level up.

1. This is what would happen. There is no reason to multiclass at his level.

2. Yes, you can multiclass at any level, just leveling up becomes harder because you need much more experiance to gain a level. So, he would be at level one for a while in whatever class he decided to add. Gods that would accept him; there are probably a lot of evil gods that wouldn't mind. He doesn't seem very supportive of Clerics, calling praying for spells "playing Mother-may-I" to Redcloak. Even if he did multiclass, the ritual likely requires a very high level divine spellcaster, level 1 Cleric Xykon is not that.

3. He might do something for no reason, but I very much doubt it.

4. If we don't come up with it, how could we discuss it?

5. To be a demigod, I believe that you need some amount of worship from a large amount of followers. That Dwarven king was able to ascend because he was deified in the dwarven religion, which led to a large amount of dwarven worship. Xykon, does not have the requisit amount of worship, and likely wouldn't be able to acquire it. He could yell at the Hobgoblins (or more likely, Redcloak) but they are dead set on worshipping The Dark One, and wouldn't like to share.

Mike Havran
2018-12-25, 04:13 AM
More to the point, the second, divine part of the ritual is ingrained into mind of a high priest of the Dark One, who is unlikely to grant such title to a non-goblin.

Xykon needs either Redcloak or another goblinoid high priest in good standing to perform the ritual.

RatElemental
2018-12-25, 04:19 AM
The only divine casting class I can see Xykon even considering taking is Ur-Priest because its whole shtick is stealing power from the gods.

He definitely fits the alignment requirement, and all but two of the required skills are class skills for sorcerer, and two of those (Spellcraft and Knowledge(Arcana)) are required for him to be able to research and cast epic spells, and we know he's done the latter.

I still don't put good odds on it, but it at least makes some kind of sense.

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-25, 08:28 PM
Oh yeah. I forgot he didn't "gain a level".

And cross classing would actually make it harder to level up. right?

What if xykon made an undead guy like RC did, and raised a high level cleric? or is that not even possible? You recall those 3 fake xykons right? How does one go about doing that? And would xykon be able to just control the cleric to do the ritual, provided it knew the ritual?

Ariko
2018-12-25, 08:58 PM
Oh yeah. I forgot he didn't "gain a level".

And cross classing would actually make it harder to level up. right?

What if xykon made an undead guy like RC did, and raised a high level cleric? or is that not even possible? You recall those 3 fake xykons right? How does one go about doing that? And would xykon be able to just control the cleric to do the ritual, provided it knew the ritual?

If the ritual were somehow modified, theoretically. He would still be unable to use the Gates the way he would want to though, as they would not be movable within the Material plane (the normal mortal world).

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-25, 09:09 PM
If the ritual were somehow modified, theoretically. He would still be unable to use the Gates the way he would want to though, as they would not be movable within the Material plane (the normal mortal world).

Thats not quite what I meant.

Can xykon make a cleric whos undead like the fake xykons from azure city?

RC made a cleric I think, who looked like xykon, and 2 other fake xykons. Is this a feasible thing for xykon to do?

Caerulea
2018-12-25, 09:35 PM
Thats not quite what I meant.

Can xykon make a cleric whos undead like the fake xykons from azure city?

RC made a cleric I think, who looked like xykon, and 2 other fake xykons. Is this a feasible thing for xykon to do?
Redcloak summoned a few skeletal monsters, one of which casts Cleric spells, put blue robes on them and called it a day. If Xykon can summon, then sure.

RatElemental
2018-12-25, 10:22 PM
Thats not quite what I meant.

Can xykon make a cleric whos undead like the fake xykons from azure city?

RC made a cleric I think, who looked like xykon, and 2 other fake xykons. Is this a feasible thing for xykon to do?

To add to the post above, it would be possible for Xykon to raise a humanoid skeleton or zombie and then awaken it. After that, due to being intelligent and humanoid in shape, they would advance via class levels rather than just adding more hitdice. The spell says the awakened undead creature only regains extraordinary abilities but doesn't say it can't go on to gain supernatural ones in other ways.

Son of A Lich!
2018-12-26, 02:04 AM
If I'm not mistaken, the Divine half of the ritual doesn't exist on paper.

Redcloak mentions this to Tsukiko when she is looking for the divine half of the ritual. The Mantle owner is imbued with the divine half of the ritual and it's never been committed to paper.

Xykon would have to reverse engineer the entire half... and frankly... I don't think he would bother.

factotum
2018-12-26, 04:35 AM
Redcloak summoned a few skeletal monsters, one of which casts Cleric spells, put blue robes on them and called it a day. If Xykon can summon, then sure.

That was a huecuva, which is basically the divine spellcasting version of a lich. It's not something Redcloak should have been able to "summon" per RAW, so we don't actually know how he got that one to work for him.

RatElemental
2018-12-26, 12:31 PM
That was a huecuva, which is basically the divine spellcasting version of a lich. It's not something Redcloak should have been able to "summon" per RAW, so we don't actually know how he got that one to work for him.

I just went back and reread that section to see if the heucuva could have let slip any possible motivations, but it looks like after Redcloak told it to go help the eye of fear and flame it basically just straight up disappears.

Kish
2018-12-26, 12:38 PM
If you mean disappears permanently, no (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0453.html).

This thread is dedicated to massively overthinking "standard D&D element: the villains can have whatever lower-level-than-them undead the DM wants to throw at the PCs."

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-27, 11:14 AM
So, what I'm gathering here is that RC didn't raise the 3 fake xykons, he "summoned" them.

So then unless xykon were to take the crimson mantle from RC, he can't just put it on any ol'e cleric, and have it work? or could he kill RC and give it to a more naive goblin cleric that would be more willing to aid him, due to naivete?

Basically, an undead cleric is out unless xykon makes an undead goblin cleric or some other rule bending comes into play?

factotum
2018-12-27, 11:54 AM
So then unless xykon were to take the crimson mantle from RC, he can't just put it on any ol'e cleric, and have it work? or could he kill RC and give it to a more naive goblin cleric that would be more willing to aid him, due to naivete?

Basically, an undead cleric is out unless xykon makes an undead goblin cleric or some other rule bending comes into play?

The Crimson Mantle is an artifact of the Dark One. We have no idea what would happen if a cleric who didn't worship the Dark One as their god were to put it on, because that's never been shown in comic--however, you'd have to assume that TDO would be intelligent enough to realise that someone hostile to his plans might attempt to put on the Mantle and have taken steps to ensure that wouldn't cause any problems for him. If I were DMing a game with something like this in, I'd just have it be totally inert unless worn by an appropriate person.

Anymage
2018-12-27, 12:01 PM
One of the defining features of sorcerers is that they only know a limited number of spells, but they have more spell slots and can freely chose which spell to cast as needed. A wizard has more potential spells available in their spellbooks, but has to prepare their loadout at the beginning of the day and has less round-to-round flexibility. Clerics act like wizards, except they have access to all spells their gods make available for daily spell prep.

Create Undead and Create Greater Undead are both spells, so Redcloak could've easily used them to create different types of undead things. Xykon could have potentially have picked one of those as a known spell, but it would then be permanently filling one of his limited spells known slots with a niche effect. It's better to count on a wizard or cleric for such niche utility spells, since the opportunity cost for them is negligible to none.

And Tsukiko with a bunch more levels could indeed solo cast the ritual, if she could somehow extract the divine half from Redcloak's brain. Her whole build was devoted to bring a wizard/cleric hybrid (that's what mystic theurges are), and there are some decently steep startup costs there. In theory, Xykon could go around fighting epic planar beasts to gain a bunch more levels and pull that off too. In practice, the required detour through low cleric levels wouldn't do much while more sorcerer levels bring cool stuff right now.

Bad Wolf
2018-12-27, 01:05 PM
So, what I'm gathering here is that RC didn't raise the 3 fake xykons, he "summoned" them.


Nope, he straight up says he made them. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html

B. Dandelion
2018-12-27, 05:56 PM
Even if Xykon had access to divine magic, that wouldn't give him access to the ritual.

Even if Xykon had access to the ritual, it wouldn't do him that much good, seeing as it gives control of the Gates to the patron deity of the divine caster, not to the caster themselves (see panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)). He could kill Redcloak and give the Mantle to a different goblin (he's threatened to do exactly that (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0662.html) at least once), but the ritual would still do the same thing under a new cleric as it would under Redcloak.

Even control over the Gates is only so useful. Redcloak in SoD tells his brother that the Snarl actually can't be controlled at all. The ritual to control the Gates would give the Dark One the ability to choose which plane the Snarl is released onto, but it's a nonstop killing machine after that. If Xykon somehow managed to get himself in the driver's seat there, he'd basically get to use the Snarl once, on a plane he wouldn't be able to rule over after as there would be absolutely nothing left.

RatElemental
2018-12-27, 06:22 PM
Even if Xykon had access to the ritual, it wouldn't do him that much good, seeing as it gives control of the Gates to the patron deity of the divine caster, not to the caster themselves (see panel 11 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0830.html)).

I'm wondering what it would do with an atheistic cleric or Ur-priest now.

Kish
2018-12-27, 08:46 PM
It's entirely possible that the ritual Redcloak has, custom-designed by the Dark One, would give control of the rift to the Dark One no matter who cast it, and another deity could modify it or come up with a ritual of their own, but would gain nothing by simply giving the unmodified ritual to a priest of theirs.

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-27, 10:36 PM
Nope, he straight up says he made them. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0431.html

Ah. Good to know. This contradicts what others had said.

And as to the rest of what I'm reading, even if xykon had the ritual and the levels required, and some how did the thing himself, it would not pan out the way he had hoped.

So, any loop holes that xykon could exploit?

I wonder if tarquin will pull a swoop, as was discussed briefly in passing before. swoop in and ruin everything for the order and team evil. Wouldn't that be neat, even if it seemingly would be "out of no where"?

Keltest
2018-12-27, 11:06 PM
"Whered you get the huecuva?"
"I found it!"
"Found it? In Azure City? The huecuva's undead!"
"what do you mean?"
"well this is a clerical zone"
"The goblin may fly south with the sun or the hobgoblin or the bugbear may seek warmer climes in winter, yet these are not strangers to our land?"
"are you suggesting huecuvas migrate?!"
"not at all! They could be carried!"
"what, carried by a goblin?"
"He could grip it by the ribs!"
"Its not a question of where he grips it! Its a simple question of size ratios! A small sized goblin could not carry a medium sized skeleton!"
"well it doesn't matter!"

RatElemental
2018-12-27, 11:09 PM
I wonder if tarquin will pull a swoop, as was discussed briefly in passing before. swoop in and ruin everything for the order and team evil. Wouldn't that be neat, even if it seemingly would be "out of no where"?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Elan! You're not done with your arc yet!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/roy.gif: Here we go again...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/xykon.gif: Who's this loser?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Loser? I'm the main villain of this story!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/xykon.gif: Is that so? Four words: Heightened Finger of Death.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png: Bit of a waste of your combat round, sir.

factotum
2018-12-27, 11:32 PM
Ah. Good to know. This contradicts what others had said.

It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make". Obviously the Giant is free to ignore the rules where it suits the story he's making, but in this case I don't think it makes much sense even in story--the whole idea of this was that Redcloak needed three free-willed undead to perform his Xykon trick, so where did he get the free-willed souls to put into the ones he "made"?

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-27, 11:32 PM
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Elan! You're not done with your arc yet!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/roy.gif: Here we go again...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/xykon.gif: Who's this loser?

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Tarquin2.png: Loser? I'm the main villain of this story!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/images/smilies/oots/xykon.gif: Is that so? Four words: Heightened Finger of Death.

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g68/Cats_Are_Aliens/Banners/Redcloak.png: Bit of a waste of your combat round, sir.

well, he did say its a bit of a crap shoot when villains fight other villains.

At least maybe he'll get a redemption arc and turn good like darth vader, by saving his son.

or not.

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-27, 11:42 PM
It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make". Obviously the Giant is free to ignore the rules where it suits the story he's making, but in this case I don't think it makes much sense even in story--the whole idea of this was that Redcloak needed three free-willed undead to perform his Xykon trick, so where did he get the free-willed souls to put into the ones he "made"?

perhaps he made them in the sense that vampire durkon was "made" by his sire.

He used a divine spell that was home brewed, and raised 3 guys who were on board to cause some mayhem provided they played by the rules RC set.

they could be set free and cause havoc at their leisure once the whole thing was said and done.

That, or they were free willed originally and were brain washed into following RC.

Is there any clarification from the giant on these 3 undead guys?

woweedd
2018-12-28, 01:33 AM
It's entirely possible that the ritual Redcloak has, custom-designed by the Dark One, would give control of the rift to the Dark One no matter who cast it, and another deity could modify it or come up with a ritual of their own, but would gain nothing by simply giving the unmodified ritual to a priest of theirs.
8-Bit Theater had a moment like that where a character copies a spell that had just made them vomit out their organs, and tries to use it on the original caster...Only to find it wasn't a "make target vomit their organs out" spell, it was a "make one specific person vomit their organs out" spell, that person being them.

Bad Wolf
2018-12-28, 02:40 AM
It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make". Obviously the Giant is free to ignore the rules where it suits the story he's making, but in this case I don't think it makes much sense even in story--the whole idea of this was that Redcloak needed three free-willed undead to perform his Xykon trick, so where did he get the free-willed souls to put into the ones he "made"?

When he said free-willed, I think he meant that they needed to be sentient enough to pass for Xykon. Obviously that didn't work, but that's more Xykon's fault...

jwhouk
2018-12-28, 06:03 AM
I wonder if tarquin will pull a swoop, as was discussed briefly in passing before. swoop in and ruin everything for the order and team evil. Wouldn't that be neat, even if it seemingly would be "out of no where"?

This is pretty much what the IFC has him set up to do.

hamishspence
2018-12-28, 06:26 AM
It also contradicts the rules of D&D, where a huecuva is a free-willed cleric who chose to become undead, not something you can just "make".

The same could be said of the Eye of Fear and Flame, and the Death Knight - neither of which have a detailed "This is how you make them with Create Undead/ Create Greater Undead" section in their descriptions.

It would appear that Create Greater Undead is more powerful in the OOTS-verse.



FF mentions that some huecavas have become that, through been subjected to a powerful curse by their patron deity. And they are also described as "having failed in their vows", and as being "punished for their heresies by being doomed to undeath".

Others are good or neutral clerics who have changed their alignment to Evil and die without atoning. Druids, paladins, and monks are all capable of becoming huecavas.


All in all, it would appear that choosing to become one is not the norm.

Morty
2018-12-28, 08:19 AM
While it's highly likely that Xykon is going to try to control the gates without involving Redcloak, I really doubt any such attempts are going to involve loopholes in the rules for summoning and creating undead. Doubly so because those rules have already been broken and handwaved away before.

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-28, 09:51 PM
While it's highly likely that Xykon is going to try to control the gates without involving Redcloak, I really doubt any such attempts are going to involve loopholes in the rules for summoning and creating undead. Doubly so because those rules have already been broken and handwaved away before.

:xykon: undead goblin clerics. just as capable of serving the dark one and perhaps my own interests, but eat less. Problem solved.

Or so he would think, seeing as he knows not of the divine ritual giving the dark one control, but whatevs.

Synesthesy
2018-12-29, 05:39 PM
:xykon: undead goblin clerics. just as capable of serving the dark one and perhaps my own interests, but eat less. Problem solved.

Or so he would think, seeing as he knows not of the divine ritual giving the dark one control, but whatevs.

There are many undead that Xykon can create that would serve him AND that would retain their divine powers? He can't create vampires, after all....

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-29, 09:34 PM
There are many undead that Xykon can create that would serve him AND that would retain their divine powers? He can't create vampires, after all....

He can or can't? I heard that liches can create vampires and now you say he can't. I'll take your word on it, but where can I look this up to fact check this and other things. What all can a lich create in terms of undead?

RatElemental
2018-12-29, 10:28 PM
He can or can't? I heard that liches can create vampires and now you say he can't. I'll take your word on it, but where can I look this up to fact check this and other things. What all can a lich create in terms of undead?

Liches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) have no special undead creating abilities beyond that which a regular mage can create, but being a lich they are probably pretty well versed in the usual necromancy spells. That said, Xykon is epic, and being epic affords you a little more leeway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm) in the undead creation department.

Note the table in the second link. Xykon can make vampires, but he'd have to research and develop a special epic spell specifically to do so. Technically, Xykon could even create other liches under his control, as well as heucuva, eyes of fear and flame, and death knights, as the seed says it can create any type of undead.

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-30, 12:27 AM
Liches (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/lich.htm) have no special undead creating abilities beyond that which a regular mage can create, but being a lich they are probably pretty well versed in the usual necromancy spells. That said, Xykon is epic, and being epic affords you a little more leeway (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/animateDead.htm) in the undead creation department.

Note the table in the second link. Xykon can make vampires, but he'd have to research and develop a special epic spell specifically to do so. Technically, Xykon could even create other liches under his control, as well as heucuva, eyes of fear and flame, and death knights, as the seed says it can create any type of undead.

ah. so its "possible" that xykon made a lich in order to fool redcloak, but its not a guarantee. Epic magic. So, could he control the other lich, or is it just a mind controlled slave like the zombies? is it a fully free willed servant that happens to be under the mind set of following xykons will?

Jasdoif
2018-12-30, 01:06 AM
8-Bit Theater had a moment like that where a character copies a spell that had just made them vomit out their organs, and tries to use it on the original caster...Only to find it wasn't a "make target vomit their organs out" spell, it was a "make one specific person vomit their organs out" spell, that person being them.Indeed (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/04/27/episode-688-an-honest-opinion/) it (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/04/29/episode-689-backfire/) did (http://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/05/02/episode-690-practical-magic/). I see the archive arrangement hasn't improved in the past several years....

Morty
2018-12-30, 12:44 PM
Whether or not Xykon tries or succeeds in creating an undead cleric to replace Redcloak, I really doubt the technicalities of whether he can do it by D&D rules are going to be a factor.

Goblin_Priest
2018-12-30, 01:19 PM
No... just... no...

Both casters need to be high level. Presumably, they need to be able to cast level 9 spells. So, at minimum, you need a lvl17 sorcerer (or wizard) and a lvl 17 cleric (or druid), or one lvl 5/5/10 mystic theurge... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work. It'd only give access to lvl 8 slots from both classes, and 7/3/10 would only give access to lvl 9 slots from one of the two.

Xykon is also ridiculously high-leveled. Him starting to multiclass now, to pick up 17 levels in a clerical class (or 7 levels + 10 levels of mystic theurge)... he'd need to grind this gate for aeons to get the necessary XP, probably. If ever.

Creating an undead minion doesn't work either. At best, he finds an existing high level cleric, and turns him into an undead... Lich? Vampire? Ghost? Something else? In any case, I don't think that minion can both be under Xykon's command, and a follower of the Dark One, receiving spells from him, or instructions from the Mantle. And thus, of no use for the ritual. None of the lesser undead that can be created from any random corpse would be able to cast level 9 divine spells.

Honestly, I think what would have a much higher chance of working, besides Redcloak doing it himself, would be with a very high level rogue that maxed out his Use Magic Device skill, both with ranks, feats, and items (if there are any?). I think you can fake worship with that skill. Then, once you get the knowledge, if it requires specific spells, you can use UMD on the necessary scrolls.

But even that's a stretch.

i.e. nobody else than Redcloak is casting the divine part.

Emanick
2018-12-30, 02:24 PM
No... just... no...

Both casters need to be high level. Presumably, they need to be able to cast level 9 spells. So, at minimum, you need a lvl17 sorcerer (or wizard) and a lvl 17 cleric (or druid), or one lvl 5/5/10 mystic theurge... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work. It'd only give access to lvl 8 slots from both classes, and 7/3/10 would only give access to lvl 9 slots from one of the two.

Xykon is also ridiculously high-leveled. Him starting to multiclass now, to pick up 17 levels in a clerical class (or 7 levels + 10 levels of mystic theurge)... he'd need to grind this gate for aeons to get the necessary XP, probably. If ever.

Creating an undead minion doesn't work either. At best, he finds an existing high level cleric, and turns him into an undead... Lich? Vampire? Ghost? Something else? In any case, I don't think that minion can both be under Xykon's command, and a follower of the Dark One, receiving spells from him, or instructions from the Mantle. And thus, of no use for the ritual. None of the lesser undead that can be created from any random corpse would be able to cast level 9 divine spells.

Honestly, I think what would have a much higher chance of working, besides Redcloak doing it himself, would be with a very high level rogue that maxed out his Use Magic Device skill, both with ranks, feats, and items (if there are any?). I think you can fake worship with that skill. Then, once you get the knowledge, if it requires specific spells, you can use UMD on the necessary scrolls.

But even that's a stretch.

i.e. nobody else than Redcloak is casting the divine part.

When Redcloak went after the first Gate, he was like level 10. There's no indication that he was going to grind for like 7 more levels after capturing it and before performing the ritual. I don't think there's any reason to assume you need 9th level spell slots to cast the ritual.

zimmerwald1915
2018-12-30, 02:56 PM
When Redcloak went after the first Gate, he was like level 10. There's no indication that he was going to grind for like 7 more levels after capturing it and before performing the ritual. I don't think there's any reason to assume you need 9th level spell slots to cast the ritual.
There are two rituals that often get conflated: Dorukan's and Lirian's Gate-making ritual which requires Epic arcane and divine magic, and the Dark One's Gate-moving ritual which merely requires an arcane and a divine caster of indeterminate level. Probably not too high-level since, as you say, Redcloak was barely mid-level himself when he and Right-Eye partnered with Xykon.

Goblin_Priest
2018-12-30, 07:15 PM
The counter-argument is that if mid level was enough, then Xykon wouldn't be nearly as indispensable.

factotum
2018-12-30, 07:54 PM
The counter-argument is that if mid level was enough, then Xykon wouldn't be nearly as indispensable.

Redcloak tried to find a suitable level arcane caster among the goblin people and could barely find anyone who could cast a cantrip. Among non-goblinoid people, who would be daft enough to help him out? Plus there's the whole sunk cost fallacy that Redcloak is deeply into--all the stuff he's done for the sake of the Plan


including killing his own brother in the belief he was saving Xykon


he thinks would be wasted if he goes for another arcane caster at this stage of proceedings, and there's no way he'll do that.

hroşila
2018-12-30, 08:19 PM
Just as importantly, at this point he can't stop working with Xykon unless he's ready to fight him openly. By now there are enough browncloaks in Gobbotopia that he might be able to get one of them to the necessary level, whatever it is, but he can't simply dump Xykon.

Goblin_Priest
2018-12-30, 08:27 PM
Redcloak tried to find a suitable level arcane caster among the goblin people and could barely find anyone who could cast a cantrip. Among non-goblinoid people, who would be daft enough to help him out? Plus there's the whole sunk cost fallacy that Redcloak is deeply into--all the stuff he's done for the sake of the Plan


including killing his own brother in the belief he was saving Xykon


he thinks would be wasted if he goes for another arcane caster at this stage of proceedings, and there's no way he'll do that.

Well there was Xykon... so if he could trick an epic level sorcerer, why shouldn't he be able to trick a mid-level one? Yea, at the time, he didn't have access to any... at first, anyways...

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-30, 09:38 PM
No... just... no...

Both casters need to be high level. Presumably, they need to be able to cast level 9 spells. So, at minimum, you need a lvl17 sorcerer (or wizard) and a lvl 17 cleric (or druid), or one lvl 5/5/10 mystic theurge... oh wait, no, that doesn't even work. It'd only give access to lvl 8 slots from both classes, and 7/3/10 would only give access to lvl 9 slots from one of the two.

Xykon is also ridiculously high-leveled. Him starting to multiclass now, to pick up 17 levels in a clerical class (or 7 levels + 10 levels of mystic theurge)... he'd need to grind this gate for aeons to get the necessary XP, probably. If ever.

Creating an undead minion doesn't work either. At best, he finds an existing high level cleric, and turns him into an undead... Lich? Vampire? Ghost? Something else? In any case, I don't think that minion can both be under Xykon's command, and a follower of the Dark One, receiving spells from him, or instructions from the Mantle. And thus, of no use for the ritual. None of the lesser undead that can be created from any random corpse would be able to cast level 9 divine spells.

Honestly, I think what would have a much higher chance of working, besides Redcloak doing it himself, would be with a very high level rogue that maxed out his Use Magic Device skill, both with ranks, feats, and items (if there are any?). I think you can fake worship with that skill. Then, once you get the knowledge, if it requires specific spells, you can use UMD on the necessary scrolls.

But even that's a stretch.

i.e. nobody else than Redcloak is casting the divine part.

Well, if a high level cleric is needed, why not kill RC and make him into a controlled undead cleric? All the levels of RC, and he eats less, and also talks less.

Keltest
2018-12-30, 09:45 PM
Well, if a high level cleric is needed, why not kill RC and make him into a controlled undead cleric? All the levels of RC, and he eats less, and also talks less.

Besides the fact that pretty much all intelligent undead that powerful are free willed and therefore would require powerful binding magic, its highly unlikely that the Dark One would continue to grant him spells as a mindless minion of Xykon.

factotum
2018-12-31, 02:50 AM
Besides the fact that pretty much all intelligent undead that powerful are free willed and therefore would require powerful binding magic, its highly unlikely that the Dark One would continue to grant him spells as a mindless minion of Xykon.

It all depends on whether Xykon would go ahead with the ritual with his enslaved cleric. I think that's more important to TDO than Redcloak's life (or the life of any other goblinoid, for that matter).

Keltest
2018-12-31, 07:56 AM
It all depends on whether Xykon would go ahead with the ritual with his enslaved cleric. I think that's more important to TDO than Redcloak's life (or the life of any other goblinoid, for that matter).

Well, yeah, but Xykon doesn't know what the ritual actually does.

factotum
2018-12-31, 08:59 AM
Well, yeah, but Xykon doesn't know what the ritual actually does.

He doesn't have any other means of interacting with the Gates as far as we know, so from his point of view he might as well cast it and see what happens.

Goblin_Priest
2018-12-31, 10:06 AM
Well, if a high level cleric is needed, why not kill RC and make him into a controlled undead cleric? All the levels of RC, and he eats less, and also talks less.

Presumably, the Dark One would refuse to grant spells to enslaved Redcloak. A lvl 17 undead goblin cleric without any actual spells is not any better than no cleric at all. It's also debatable if that new intelligent undead would have access to the necessary knowledge to pull it off, anyways. If it's some negative energy spirit in there... Even if vampires are unique*, the "evil negative energy occupant" mechanism makes sense for all undead. Especially those dominated by their creators (thrall Durkon was greatly different than vampire Durkon).

In theory, Xykon could have the epic Animate Dead seed, which grants a lot of freedom to maybe find a way to do this... but really, we've never seen him animate anything more than basic skeletons and zombies. Heck, I don't even remember him doing skeletons? Just basic zombies all the time. Redcloak is the one that used Create Undead (whatever version of it) to get the Xykon look-alikes. Tsusiko was the one creating wights.

Xykon might just be incapable of animating intelligent undead, due to his build choices.

Keltest
2018-12-31, 10:35 AM
He doesn't have any other means of interacting with the Gates as far as we know, so from his point of view he might as well cast it and see what happens.

Let me rephrase. Xykon has no reason to believe that the Dark One would continue to grant Deadcloak spells as Xykon's enslaved minion.

zimmerwald1915
2018-12-31, 10:51 AM
Let me rephrase. Xykon has no reason to believe that the Dark One would continue to grant Deadcloak spells as Xykon's enslaved minion.
If the Dark One won't, some god, or concept, surely will. It'd be a shame to let 17 Cleric levels go to waste.

Keltest
2018-12-31, 10:55 AM
If the Dark One won't, some god, or concept, surely will. It'd be a shame to let 17 Cleric levels go to waste.

I don't know about that. Being a cleric requires genuine faith, and that in turn would require free will, no?

Besides, didn't Redcloak specifically use the threat of TDO not granting anybody else the ritual to keep Xykon from killing him in a fit of rage?

zimmerwald1915
2018-12-31, 11:44 AM
I don't know about that. Being a cleric requires genuine faith, and that in turn would require free will, no?
Durkon's vampire retained his spells as a thrall, and his own spawn and thralls were able to prepare spells after leaving the Godsmoot for Firmament. So it seems not.

Keltest
2018-12-31, 11:50 AM
Durkon's vampire retained his spells as a thrall, and his own spawn and thralls were able to prepare spells after leaving the Godsmoot for Firmament. So it seems not.

Perhaps, but he was controlled by another cleric. Its possible Nergal was granting Thrall-greg spells as a favor to Malack. Likewise with Hel and Greg's thralls.

zimmerwald1915
2018-12-31, 11:57 AM
Perhaps, but he was controlled by another cleric. Its possible Nergal was granting Thrall-greg spells as a favor to Malack. Likewise with Hel and Greg's thralls.
Certainly possible. It is also not the only possible motivation a god might have to grant spells to another person's enthralled cleric. For example, they might be playing a long game and expect Xykon to be destroyed eventually - by granting spells in the intervening time they might have bought the loyalty of the cleric. Or they might want Xykon to succeed in his goals and offer his Redcloak thrall spells in order to help Xykon.

Keltest
2018-12-31, 12:32 PM
Certainly possible. It is also not the only possible motivation a god might have to grant spells to another person's enthralled cleric. For example, they might be playing a long game and expect Xykon to be destroyed eventually - by granting spells in the intervening time they might have bought the loyalty of the cleric. Or they might want Xykon to succeed in his goals and offer his Redcloak thrall spells in order to help Xykon.

All of this is technically true, but its not anything Xykon can actually count on.

RatElemental
2018-12-31, 07:41 PM
In theory, Xykon could have the epic Animate Dead seed, which grants a lot of freedom to maybe find a way to do this... but really, we've never seen him animate anything more than basic skeletons and zombies. Heck, I don't even remember him doing skeletons? Just basic zombies all the time. Redcloak is the one that used Create Undead (whatever version of it) to get the Xykon look-alikes. Tsusiko was the one creating wights.

Xykon might just be incapable of animating intelligent undead, due to his build choices.

You don't need to spend build resources on getting seeds. If you are capable of casting epic spells at all (which we know Xykon is) then you are capable of researching an epic spell using any and all epic spell seeds that exist*.

*Exception being the Life and Heal seeds, which you only get if you have 24 ranks in Knowledge (Nature) or Knowledge (Religion)

WolvesbaneIII
2018-12-31, 08:55 PM
I don't know about that. Being a cleric requires genuine faith, and that in turn would require free will, no?

Besides, didn't Redcloak specifically use the threat of TDO not granting anybody else the ritual to keep Xykon from killing him in a fit of rage?

What about mind control? like dominate person? or some other spell to control redcloak? I don't how D&D works really, so could xykon just dominate RC and make him do the spell?

Do dominated clerics still have access to spells from their gods?

RatElemental
2018-12-31, 09:49 PM
What about mind control? like dominate person? or some other spell to control redcloak? I don't how D&D works really, so could xykon just dominate RC and make him do the spell?

Do dominated clerics still have access to spells from their gods?

Probably? In oots the clerics might fail to gain new spell when they refresh but there is nothing against the rules about them getting the spells anyway or keeping them upon being dominated. We have in comic evidence in the form of Hilgya that they at least keep spells.

As for the rules, there are several spells that can mind control people or put constraints on their actions. Charm Person, Dominate Person, Geas and Command come to mind. Fortunately for Redcloak he's a near epic character of a class with a good will save and whose main casting stat increases said will saves.

Though once again, epic spellcasting complicates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/compel.htm) things. (Note, all epic spells can increase the saving throw DC arbitrarily by adding +2 to the spellcraft DC per extra point to the saving throw)



tl;dr: There's damn near nothing an epic spellcaster can't do if they have the time, money and initiative to put towards it.

WolvesbaneIII
2019-01-01, 01:44 AM
Probably? In oots the clerics might fail to gain new spell when they refresh but there is nothing against the rules about them getting the spells anyway or keeping them upon being dominated. We have in comic evidence in the form of Hilgya that they at least keep spells.

As for the rules, there are several spells that can mind control people or put constraints on their actions. Charm Person, Dominate Person, Geas and Command come to mind. Fortunately for Redcloak he's a near epic character of a class with a good will save and whose main casting stat increases said will saves.

Though once again, epic spellcasting complicates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/compel.htm) things. (Note, all epic spells can increase the saving throw DC arbitrarily by adding +2 to the spellcraft DC per extra point to the saving throw)



tl;dr: There's damn near nothing an epic spellcaster can't do if they have the time, money and initiative to put towards it.

Hmm. so in theory, xykon could plot device his way to control red cloak, and it doesn't matter, because the dark one gets control of where the snarl is unleashed.