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tricktroller
2018-12-26, 03:54 PM
Hey everyone,
I have made a list of class additions that my players can pick from for a game I am running. You can find it here (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1wnrWOloms_JCB086EGEh7Sxes8j4zvlVmbC63DJP3xw/edit?usp=sharing) in my Google Drive.

Most classes get two options to pick from and I have found that most of them are pretty well balanced. I would love to hear what you guys think about some of the options I have made. (Also you may note that some classes are not listed, like samurai. That is because I am building an entirely new version of that class so it isn't a giant dumpster fire like Fallout 76)

The idea behind the class additions is to prevent multiclass dipping so that the classes can do some other things but not need to have one level in mink, barbarian, two in fighter and rogue just to get the stuff you need/want.

Along with these additions I have some house rules that are run, things like you may make an offhand attack as well as an onhand attack anytime you use a standard action to do so., there are no class'crossclass skills, etc. That list is here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/13c4XkeN47LcVz88uMINyWdqVAIF92GAj/view?usp=sharing)

Thank y'all for your time and your criticisms!

Reinforcer Class (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ixql_dDZRkbYEKJUD1xK81baE5pkuV5WCF63kKlSGuM/edit?usp=sharing)

tricktroller
2019-01-18, 01:16 PM
Not sure on the rules for threadcromancy, but I am hoping I am not violating them. I am still wondering if anyone feels like helping me with a PEACH on this.

Quarian Rex
2019-01-18, 04:41 PM
I see what you are doing here but you have just thrown any kind of balance into the woodchipper. I think thath the biggest problem is adding full Sorcerer spellcasting (minus a couple spells per day) to every martial class that happened to have minor casting in their kit. That is insane. Not just for doing such a thing (if you want to run a gestalt game, go nuts) but for doing it so unevenly.

The idea that turning Paladins and Rangers into gestalt Sorcerers is somehow the of equivalent power/utility to a Duskblade getting a better spell list, or a Fighter gaining Marshal auras is just nuts. Giving Sorcerers specializations with an extra 4 (4!) spells per level! WTH man? Adding a little extra onto a class because you think it needs it is one thing, Giving a martial class Tier 1 spellcasting and the gish minorly expanded spell options is quite another.

What you did with Ecclectic for Wizards/Clerics/etc. is probably a better way to go about it. Stapling on full class features to the wrong class just destroys too many niches. Adding Tome of Battle/Path of War maneuvers to martials is not a bad idea but full Warblade isn't. Have a look at the Archetype Maneuver Progression (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/alternative-rule-systems/path-of-war/classes/abilities-for-other-classes/) from Path of War (ToB for Pathfinder) for a more sane progression.

If you wanted to preserve the apparent power level that you currently have I would say to just let your players gestalt a single class with their base class at level 1. Advancing the base class advances the gestalt class (which cannot be changed). Advancing any other class does not. That achieves your goal (having players stick with their base class) in a way that is in accordance with the highest power options you presented (some of which were functional gestalts anyway) without the blatant imbalanced favoritism that is currently present.

I don't know if this is coming off as overly harsh, it's not meant to be, but this is just so all over the place it is hard to know where to start.

tricktroller
2019-01-18, 04:46 PM
Quick note this a low magic world in an E6 campaign so the most the sorcerer casting will ever net a ranger or paladin is 4- 0level 4(maybe 5) -1st level 3(maybe 4) 2nd level and 1(maybe 2) 3rd level spells per day. They also only have access to their spell lists plus one additional item from a spell list adjacent to their own.

They have spells known that they do not get to change.

Does that change the color of your opinions?

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-01-18, 05:20 PM
Most classes get two options to pick from and I have found that most of them are pretty well balanced. I would love to hear what you guys think about some of the options I have made. (Also you may note that some classes are not listed, like samurai. That is because I am building an entirely new version of that class so it isn't a giant dumpster fire like Fallout 76)

The idea behind the class additions is to prevent multiclass dipping so that the classes can do some other things but not need to have one level in mink, barbarian, two in fighter and rogue just to get the stuff you need/want.

The basic idea behind this is pretty great, giving more options in E6 is always good given the fewer class levels to work with, but I see two issues. First, the "gain maneuvers as a..." benefit is somewhat overused, potentially leading to more homogenous parties if everyone has a maneuver progression. That's more a matter of taste, though, and I know it's easier to slap maneuvers on something than 'brew up something from scratch.

Second, while Quarian probably missed the E6 part so the imbalance isn't as bad as he described, some of these benefits are definitely fairly lopsided, either because one of the two benefits for a given class is much better than the other or because Class A borrowing from Class B ends up much weaker than Class B borrowing from Class X.

Some specific examples of the former:
Barbarian: Aside from the fact that +8 Str/Con is pretty darn powerful (potentially too much so) at 1st and 2nd level, +4 Str/Con from Rage plus Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers is likely to make them more tanky than +8 Str/Con from Rage and DR/--; several Iron Heart and Stone Dragon maneuvers deal enough extra damage to outweigh the extra +2 attack/+2 damage (or +0 attack/+6 damage from two-handed Power Attack), both disciplines have pretty good defenses as well (e.g. Stone Bones grants DR 5/adamantine at 1st while the other track's DR 5/-- doesn't come until 6th), and maneuvers grant easier access to Stone Power whose temp HP outdoes DR in several cases (works against energy damage, helps more against big single hits, etc.).
Psychic Warrior: Giving the psywar double the PP and powers known means he can pick up offensive precognition, defensive precognition, and vigor for free and still have 3 more free powers. Given that in E6 the maximum difference between full and 3/4 BAB is only +2, low and high Will is only +3, and d8 to d12 is on average 12 HP, in a boss fight (the only time an extra +2 or handful of HP is likely to matter a lot) the psychic warrior can easily spend 10 of his bonus 11 PP per day on those three powers for +2 attack, +2 AC and all saves, and 10 temporary HP, and in any other scenario he has a lot more PP and utility powers to play with.
Bard: A Bardsader build (Bard/Crusader with Song of the White Raven) is already quite a strong build, and this lets you do that without impeding your spellcasting or maneuver progressions. Meanwhile, though the Skald track makes being a Snowflake Wardance melee bard more survivable, as noted above in an E6 environment the benefits aren't all that noticeable. The Bardsader isn't strictly superior to the Skald or anything, but there's definitely much more inherent synergy.

Some specific examples of the latter:
Cleric vs. Paladin: The cleric can pick up Smite Evil, d10 HD, and full BAB, making it strictly superior to the base paladin except for Divine Grace (certainly nice, but not solely worth choosing paladin for) and Holy Mount (which doesn't tend to come up much). Meanwhile, the paladin can cast as a sorcerer (speeding up its spell selection and making a few 3rd-level paladin spells abusable because they're intended to come in at CL 10 instead of CL 6, but restricting the paladin to certain spells known instead of the full list swappable daily) with -2 spells per day (maxing out at 4/4/3/1 per day, compared to the cleric's 5/3/3/2 before domain spells) and extra Conjuration (Healing) spells (which the cleric already has). There's basically no reason to pick the paladin in this case unless you're really attached to the Holy Mount, and even then you're strictly worse for the first 4 levels.
Fighter vs. Warblade: If a character already wasn't planning to focus on Int, fighter with warblade maneuvers is better than warblade plus class features, because the fighter gets more feats from a broader list, can choose any three disciplines (which is fewer than the warblade gets, but since a character can only really focus on 2-3 disciplines anyway it's much better to be able to pick, say, Iron Heart+Devoted Spirit or Shadow Hand+Setting Sun+Iron Heart), and only misses out on Weapon Aptitude (not likely to come up for most of the game, since the warblade isn't going to want to waste his few feat slots on Weapon Focus or the like until post-level-6) and Uncanny Dodge (nice, but not world-shaking). Meanwhile, the warblade's choices are all numerical bonuses, and things that the fighter could pick up as a 1-level dip anyway because they don't scale to the same degree that maneuvers do. The warblade isn't strictly inferior because he gets better HD and if he does focus on Int he gets a couple nice perks, but overall the fighter is stronger.
Ninja vs. Swordsage: The ninja can choose between swordsage maneuvers from 3 disciplines on one track, or Wis to AC, light armor, full BAB, 8+Int skills, and Sneak Attack on the other track. But the swordsage already gets maneuvers from 6 disciplines, Wis to AC, light armor, and 8+Int Skills, and can pick up Sneak Attack via Assassin's stance. The ninja's Trapfinding is now just a bonus to finding traps rather than an exclusive option, and Ghost Step/Great Leap+Acrobatics/Ki Dodge are duplicated by Cloak of Deception/Leaping Dragon Stance/Child of Shadow (which, granted, the swordsage can't have two stances up at the same time, but the mobility skills tend to be used out of combat and the miss chances in combat so they don't really conflict), so ninja is essentially subsumed by swordsage. Yes, the Ninja gets full BAB, but the free Weapon Focus from Discipline Focus partly makes up for that and, again, full BAB is at most a +2 advantage.

Those are just the more obvious issues, but there are others in there as well. I'd suggest you go through all the options and, for each one, ask yourself "What's the best/most synergistic build I can make with these extra benefits?" and "What classes end up with similar features after gaining their own new benefits?" to compare tracks within and between classes, and adjust them until there's less overlap and no obvious choices.

tricktroller
2019-01-22, 12:41 PM
Changes in red

Barbarians
Gain maneuvers like a Warblade with access to Desert Wind, Iron Heart, and Stone Dragon
Rage grants +8 to strength and con instead of normal bonuses, and gain one use of rage per 3 levels, instead of normal progression. (If choosing a variant like Ferocity the +8 goes to the corresponding bonuses.)@6th gain DR 5/- while raging (Stacks with all dr/-).Remove rages per day, change to once per encounter. Lasts for 8 rounds.

Paladin
Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White Raven
Change spellcasting to sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level, add Conjuration (Healing) spells to listNo change as paladin still has access to Battle Blessing feat.

Ranger
Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Tiger Claw, Desert Wind, and Stone Dragon
Change spellcasting to sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level, add summon nature’s ally to list

Swashbuckler
Gain maneuvers like Sword Sage with access to Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon.
Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and to saves at 2nd. Gain bonus feats at every even level.

Psychic Warrior
Double the number of power points gained per day (Including bonus points) and number of powers known. Removed Channel ability
Change to full base attack, change Will save to high, HD to D12, Skills to 6+Int. Gain ability to Channel powers into weapon as duskblade.

Soulknife
Gain Full Base attack, All Martial Weapons, Mind blade can be any weapon you are proficient with, including two weapons and ranged weapons. You may imbue your weapon with a psychic strike as a swift action.
Gain Psionic Powers and Points as a Psychic Warrior, gain bonus feats as Psychic Warrior.

Hexblade
Gain Swordsage maneuvers with access to Diamond Mind, Iron Heart,Stone Dragon, and Shadow Blade
Change spellcasting to Sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level, gain one spell known at each level from sorcerer list.

Knight
Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White Raven
Gain bonus feats as a Fighter, Also gain Improved Shield Bash or Agile Shield Fighter @1st

Fighter
Gains maneuvers like a Warblade with access to three schools chosen at 1st level
Marshal - Gain Auras like a marshal (Use Str vs Cha), 6+Int Skills, high Will save.

Ninja Probably just going to be removed as an option like Samurai.
Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Stone Dragon
Gain Ac bonus while armored, light armor prof, full BAB, 8+Int Skills, and Sudden Strike works against flanked foes.

Monk
Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Desert Wind, and Setting Sun
Wrestler: Gain full base attack, d12 hit dice, a +6 to grapple checks and can constrict in a grapple damage equal your unarmed strike plus your strength
Rogue
Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Diamond Mind
Change hit dice to d8, base attack to full, fortitude saves to good, gain a bonus feat at 2nd and every 3 levels after.
Scout
Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind
Gain the ability to make a full attack after moving up to one full move. Increase BAB to Full.

Spellthief
Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Shadow Hand, and any two other schools.
Gain wizard spellcasting -1 spell per level, spells known drawn from Abj, Div, Enc, Ill, and Trans, cast off and bonus spells from Int.
Sorcerer
Gain bonus feats like a Fighter, but pick from bloodline, metamagic, or extra spell feats
Specialize in one school, ban three. Gain 4 extra spells per day per level for that school.

Cleric, Druid, Psion, Wizard
Eclectic -Pick one of the following class features, gain it as a character of half your level.
Rage, cast while raging
Sneak Attack, +4 skills per level or High Ref
Favored Enemy, +2 skills per level and Increase HD by 1 size or gain high Fort or Ref
Smite Evil, Increase HD by 1 size, or full BAB
Monk unarmed Damage and IUAS, +2 skills per level or BAB by one step
Skirmish, +4 skills per level or high Fort
Mind Blade, gain bonus feats @1st,3rd, and 6th, or +1 Bab
Arcane Channeling, Increase BAB by one step or HD by one step

Duskblade
Gain access to the Wizard spell list.
Add one Wizard school list to your spell list, gain fighter bonus feats.

Beguiler
¾ BAB, d8 Hp, prof Medium armor and shields, gain 1 exotic or martial weapon prof
10+Int skills, High Reflex, Evasion @4th level, Sneak attack as rogue ½ level

Warmage
Increase BAB to ¾, HP to D8, Prof. all martial weapons, 6+Int Skills.
Gain access to spells from one Wizard domain from UnArc.

Bards
Skald - Gain d8 hit points, good fort saves, and full base attack. At 6th level gain damage reduction equal to half level round up. +1 spell per day per level.
Gain access to Crusader maneuvers using White Raven, Iron Heart, and Devoted Spirit. May use with a whip.

Warlock
8+Int skills, Skirmish as scout, +1 Invocation at each level of Invocation. Least, Lesser, Etc
Change HP to D8, Fort save to High, Full BAB, Channel eldritch blast through any weapon as a standard action. (Ranged or Melee) @6th may channel Eldritch blast as part of a full attack action.(including TWF)

Dragon Shaman
Full BAB, Gain claw, bite as large dragon disciple at 1st, add +2 Str at 3rd &5th +2 Con at 6th, +1 natural armor at 2nd, 4th, and 8th, gain wings at 10th, increase breath weapon damage by 1 die at 4th, 6th, 9th, 12th, and 15th.Dragon Apotheosis at 15th like Dragon Disciple.
Gain Marshal minor auras and grant move action, Gain paladin spellcasting and aura of courage. Draconic aura’s are increased by 2.(Not marshal auras)

Factotum
D10 Hp, 10+Int Skills, Full Base Attack, All High Saves, bonus feat at 1st.
Regain Inspiration Points in combat by spending a full round action concentrating.

Crusader
Marshal - Gain Auras like a marshal, +1 minor and Major Aura at 1st level gained.
Cast spells like Paladin, +1 spell per spell level, per day.

Warblade
Pick; Rage, Favored Enemy, Monk Unarmed Damage(And IUAS), Skirmish, gain as your level.
Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and saves at 2nd, 3rd Debilitating Aura (Paladin of Slaughter)

Sword Sage
Gain any one school of maneuvers, gain fighter bonus feat at 2nd, and every 4 levels after.
Gain the ability to make a full attack after moving up to one full move. Increase BAB to Full.

Reinforcer
Gain D8 HD, Full BAB, quick cast as a duskblade.
Marshal - Gain Auras like a marshal (Use Wis vs Cha), 6+Int Skills, high Will save.

Thank you all so much for your replies!

I do have a couple of things I would like to point out about your comparisont hat I disagree on and we can discuss from there.

The Warblade getting everything it normally gets, plus rage could be a terrifying combination. A skirmishing, moving warblade hitting people after charging could be gross as well. I also think making the class more intelligence focused, like the paladin is charisma focused, adds in my opinion a lot of flavor, like the smart fighter instead of the brute.

I think I am going to take the Ninja out entirely like I have done with the samurai.

tricktroller
2019-01-22, 12:45 PM
One additional note just in case I did not make it clear to everyone.

The class additions can only be gained on the first class you take and only for the levels you take in that class.

noob
2019-01-22, 01:38 PM
Did you remove the marshal class?

tricktroller
2019-01-22, 01:40 PM
Less that I removed it, so much as I didn't add them.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-01-22, 04:20 PM
Paladin
Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White Raven
Change spellcasting to sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level, add Conjuration (Healing) spells to listNo change as paladin still has access to Battle Blessing feat.

While Battle Blessing is pretty awesome now that the paladin actually has the slots to spend at low levels in this setup, I don't think it makes up for the cleric being Paladin++ here. The change to making clerics pick better HD or better BAB just means that clerics will have to go the DMM: Persist route for full BAB instead of getting it for free, or just take the full BAB option and ignore the ~6 HP they're not getting. Switching paladins to sorcerer casting also means that they can't cast from their entire list, which is (A) kinda bad when most divine lists assume you can prep combat spells one day and noncombat spells the next and (B) limiting when they max out at 2 3rds and 1 4th known, meaning that even with Battle Blessing they won't get a chance to use most of the best paladin spells.

If you really want to differentiate the paladin from the cleric, I'd suggest giving them spirit shaman casting instead of sorcerer casting--they still prepare spells every day, but then cast spontaneously from that set--so they retain the benefits of standard divine casting but gain some sorcerer flexibility as you intended.


I do have a couple of things I would like to point out about your comparisont hat I disagree on and we can discuss from there.

The Warblade getting everything it normally gets, plus rage could be a terrifying combination. A skirmishing, moving warblade hitting people after charging could be gross as well. I also think making the class more intelligence focused, like the paladin is charisma focused, adds in my opinion a lot of flavor, like the smart fighter instead of the brute.

Making Warblade more Int-primary rather than its current Int-secondary setup is great, no arguments there. My point was that there are plenty of martial characters who can't (or don't want to) invest in their mental stats because they already need Str/Dex/Con--which is why the ToB classes were built so that their mental stat focus was nice to have but not mandatory--and that Warblade-with-good-Int is certainly comparable to Fighter-with-good-Int, if you compare Fighter-with-average-Int to Warblade-with-average-Int the fighter comes out on top.

This doesn't mean the fighter should be nerfed or anything, the power level is fine, it just means that less overlap would be good. Maybe that means giving the fighter a different maneuver recovery mechanism so the warblade is still more reliable with its maneuvers; maybe that means giving the warblade more maneuvers known, or access to different/more disciplines so the fighter's discipline selection isn't strictly superior, or both. Just something so the two aren't so similar.

tricktroller
2019-01-22, 04:36 PM
What if we added INT to hit or damage for the warblade at 3rd on the second set of options and increased the number of skills gained. (Like making it partially swashbuckler)

I like the idea of giving the fighter a different mechanic for recovery, something like the warblade's current one but either only one maneuver back at a time or once per encounter. Or one maneuver recovered as a swift action once per encounter/all maneuvers recovered as a swift action one per day?

As far as the cleric/paladin portion, my players know I will throw a book at them if they do diving metamagic persist clerics in my low magic E6 campaign. We have monty-hall-balls-to-the-walls campaigns so that kind of shenanigans can be gotten out of people's systems.

I do like the idea of the spitir shaman for the paladin though, again with the reduced spells per day.

noob
2019-01-22, 05:23 PM
Why charisma focused paladin?
I do not want my paladin to be reckless and unwise.
Maybe paladin should pick between charisma and wisdom and have all their class feature align on their pick?
Also do you know sword of the arcane order?
It is better than sorcerer casting -2 on a paladin up to level 10 but it is e6.
A paladin with sword of the arcane order is better than your paladin at casting.
So basically your paladin would be a downgrade on SOTA paladin if not for the maneuvers.
Also why do they get warblade maneuver recovery while conceptually the closest martial class is the crusader?

And your dragon shaman is definitively not e6: it have a class feature at level 15

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-01-22, 06:52 PM
What if we added INT to hit or damage for the warblade at 3rd on the second set of options and increased the number of skills gained. (Like making it partially swashbuckler)

That could work. In that case, you'll probably want to remove the swashbuckler, as it gets obsoleted by warblade the same way swordsage obsoletes ninja.


I like the idea of giving the fighter a different mechanic for recovery, something like the warblade's current one but either only one maneuver back at a time or once per encounter. Or one maneuver recovered as a swift action once per encounter/all maneuvers recovered as a swift action one per day?

I'd actually go with something like "Each time a fighter successfully performs a combat maneuver, hits with an attack made as part of a full attack, or hits with an attack of opportunity, he regains a single maneuver of his choice, as long as those attacks or combat maneuvers are not made as part of a maneuver." That's somewhat similar to a warblade, in that both of them will tend to have a maneuver -> maneuver -> maneuver -> full attack -> maneuver -> ... pattern in combat, but (A) the warblade gets everything back with one action while the fighter would need multiple full attacks to refresh everything, giving the warblade a noticeable advantage when it comes to maneuver use, and (B) the fighter gets maneuvers back from AoOs so he's encouraged to be a bit tankier and he can sometimes use the same maneuver two turns in a row without taking actions to recharge.


As far as the cleric/paladin portion, my players know I will throw a book at them if they do diving metamagic persist clerics in my low magic E6 campaign. We have monty-hall-balls-to-the-walls campaigns so that kind of shenanigans can be gotten out of people's systems.

That's not quite so bad, then. Still, the difference between 6d8 and d10 is only 6-7 HP on average, as I mentioned, so they're still getting the paladin's full BAB and Smite Evil essentially for free and not really missing the lack of extra HP. Probably better to say full BAB or Smite Evil and leave out the HD, since that's a more directly comparison (small attack bonus all the time vs. higher attack bonus with limits).


I do like the idea of the spitir shaman for the paladin though, again with the reduced spells per day.

If you do that, the ranger and hexblade (and other 4th-level casters like the Blackguard) should probably get the same treatment.


Why charisma focused paladin?
I do not want my paladin to be reckless and unwise.
Maybe paladin should pick between charisma and wisdom and have all their class feature align on their pick?

Yeah, making paladins SAD would certainly help differentiate them more from minorly-MAD clerics. Every little bit helps.

lightningcat
2019-01-22, 10:29 PM
Not sure on the rules for threadcromancy, but I am hoping I am not violating them. I am still wondering if anyone feels like helping me with a PEACH on this.



Thread Necromancy
Bringing a thread back from "the dead." If a thread hasn't been posted in within the last 45 days, don't reply to it. Start a new topic, if you want to discuss the subject (you are welcome to link to the old thread). If you think it would be better to resurrect an old thread, PM a moderator for that subforum and wait for approval. The original poster of a creation in Homebrew (and only that poster) may revive a creation beyond the 45 day threshold without prior Moderator approval.


No worries about Necromancy on this thread.

However, I don't think this would be a low magic world. This seems more like a high magic E6 world. Which is an interesting change of pace. You might not have much in the way of the "great and powerful magics," but you will have lots of low level magic abilities.

tricktroller
2019-01-23, 08:31 AM
I feel like a couple facts might make some of my choices make more sense.

I allow third party material like AEG content and Bastards and Bloodlines.

Anyone can be as SAD as they want with "Lost Tradition" so I don't think building that into the class makes as much sense. I also have houseruled in the past that Serenity makes them cast off of Wis along with all the other benefits it gives, but it allows there to still be the base CHA paladin.

I really like the recovery mechanic you mentioned for the fighter. I might make that the new norm starting tongiht. (We do Nerd Night on Wednesdays.)

I think the Swashbuckler will stay though. I don't mind there being overlap to the characters, and on every class they only get one of the two listed options(Or one of several on Eclectic.)

I'm fine with giving the choice between full BAB and Smite. Maybe give them tower shield proficiency to give them a different feel from paladins.

@lightningcat
The reason it is a low magic game is that these class additions are literally only available to heroic characters. All of my NPC's are NPC classes, with only a few (Somewhere in the realm of 15-30 Character Class NPC's in the entire world. So most "magic" is done by low level adepts and witches. People aren't inherently suspicious of magic, they just rarely see it.

Along that same theme, there are almost no monsters/beings over CR 10 in the entire world, and only 2 that are above CR 12.

I am also adding this link for the Reinforcer (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ixql_dDZRkbYEKJUD1xK81baE5pkuV5WCF63kKlSGuM/edit?usp=sharing) up at the top in the OP.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-01-23, 01:33 PM
I think the Swashbuckler will stay though. I don't mind there being overlap to the characters, and on every class they only get one of the two listed options(Or one of several on Eclectic.)

They only get to pick one, but picking the Int-focused warblade option is always going to be strictly better than picking the Int-focused swashbuckler option and going swordsage is generally better than going swashbuckler-with-maneuvers because Insightful Strike can be replaced with Shadow Blade for a non-Int-focused character, so if you're going to keep the swashbuckler around I'd suggest giving it something to distinguish it from the swordsage and warblade.

What I'd suggest for the first option is swapping out Stone Dragon for Iron Heart. A discipline all about standing in place and enduring hits is a bad fit for a class that's themed around moving around and dodging, and Iron Heart's "amazingly skilled with a sword" theme is a good replacement. Plus, mmixing swordsage and warblade disciplines like that, like the paladin does, makes it not strictly worse than either swordsage or warblade in that department.

For the second option, I'd add in some more dodging-/mobility-themed abilities. Maybe remove Grace in favor of an actual good Ref progression, add in Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, move Acrobatic Dodge down to 6th so it's accessible in E6, and add a "Parry" ability that lets the swashbuckler basically use Evasion on melee attacks by spending AoOs. Those are all abilities that the warblade doesn't have (except Uncanny Dodge, which it does have and which the swashbuckler really should have had already), so that gives someone a good reason to choose Int-swashbuckler over Int-warblade--and adding that doesn't step on the rogue's toes because it already gets a different set of benefits from its own tracks.

noob
2019-01-23, 02:25 PM
They only get to pick one, but picking the Int-focused warblade option is always going to be strictly better than picking the Int-focused swashbuckler option and going swordsage is generally better than going swashbuckler-with-maneuvers because Insightful Strike can be replaced with Shadow Blade for a non-Int-focused character, so if you're going to keep the swashbuckler around I'd suggest giving it something to distinguish it from the swordsage and warblade.

What I'd suggest for the first option is swapping out Stone Dragon for Iron Heart. A discipline all about standing in place and enduring hits is a bad fit for a class that's themed around moving around and dodging, and Iron Heart's "amazingly skilled with a sword" theme is a good replacement. Plus, mmixing swordsage and warblade disciplines like that, like the paladin does, makes it not strictly worse than either swordsage or warblade in that department.

For the second option, I'd add in some more dodging-/mobility-themed abilities. Maybe remove Grace in favor of an actual good Ref progression, add in Evasion and Uncanny Dodge, move Acrobatic Dodge down to 6th so it's accessible in E6, and add a "Parry" ability that lets the swashbuckler basically use Evasion on melee attacks by spending AoOs. Those are all abilities that the warblade doesn't have (except Uncanny Dodge, which it does have and which the swashbuckler really should have had already), so that gives someone a good reason to choose Int-swashbuckler over Int-warblade--and adding that doesn't step on the rogue's toes because it already gets a different set of benefits from its own tracks.
I am not sure if the thread creator made those rules for e6 because then those "sorc casting -2" for ranger and paladin would probably be replaced by SOTA casting which is better in E6

tricktroller
2019-01-24, 08:40 AM
Ok so the swashbuckler used to look like this as the second option
Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and to saves at 2nd. Pick from the following class abilities:
1: @2nd Evasion, @4th Uncanny Dodge, @6th Imp. Uncanny Dodge,
or 2:@1st Dodge, @3rd Spring Attack, @6th Whirlwind Attack

I am totally ok with adding iron heart instead of stone dragon to the swashbuckler or giving them a floating open manuever to pick from every day.


It has been mentioned twice that SotAO casting is better than my changes but I fail to see how a single or maybe two, first level wizard spells are better than 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells. Add to the fact that SotAO doesn't allow you to ignore ASF in armor, I really fail to see the benefit of this.

noob
2019-01-24, 12:25 PM
Ok so the swashbuckler used to look like this as the second option
Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and to saves at 2nd. Pick from the following class abilities:
1: @2nd Evasion, @4th Uncanny Dodge, @6th Imp. Uncanny Dodge,
or 2:@1st Dodge, @3rd Spring Attack, @6th Whirlwind Attack

I am totally ok with adding iron heart instead of stone dragon to the swashbuckler or giving them a floating open manuever to pick from every day.


It has been mentioned twice that SotAO casting is better than my changes but I fail to see how a single or maybe two, first level wizard spells are better than 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spells. Add to the fact that SotAO doesn't allow you to ignore ASF in armor, I really fail to see the benefit of this.

Well you take a single level into wizard and you have full wizard casting since it says it adds to the caster level and not "caster level for casting spells" or anything like that(thus you get the extra spell slots from higher caster level).
So you have close to full paladining and full spellcasting as a wizard too and it is purely better than sorcerer casting -2 because with sorcerer casting -2 you would have lower level spells And still have ASF since sorcerers have arcane spell failure.

outside of that cheese I was thinking about the mystic ranger which is like the ranger but who also have a casting better than sorcerer -2

Also for getting level 3 spells with sorc-2 casting you need to reach level 8 which is impossible in e6 so you cap out to level 2 spells with sorcerer -2 casting.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-01-24, 01:06 PM
Ok so the swashbuckler used to look like this as the second option
Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and to saves at 2nd. Pick from the following class abilities:
1: @2nd Evasion, @4th Uncanny Dodge, @6th Imp. Uncanny Dodge,
or 2:@1st Dodge, @3rd Spring Attack, @6th Whirlwind Attack

I am totally ok with adding iron heart instead of stone dragon to the swashbuckler or giving them a floating open manuever to pick from every day.

That looks pretty good, actually. I would personally replace the Whirlwind Attack with moving Acrobatic Charge to 6th, since that fits the mobile fighting style better and they can pretty easily take Whirlwind Attack given that they've gotten two of the feat prereqs for free, but that's mostly a matter of taste.


Well you take a single level into wizard and you have full wizard casting since it says it adds to the caster level and not "caster level for casting spells" or anything like that(thus you get the extra spell slots from higher caster level).

That's...not at all how it works. "Caster level" and "effective level for casting spells" are the same thing; all that clause means is that a paladin 3/wizard 3 with SotAO has CL 6 instead of CL 3 for his wizard spells, not the spells/day and spells known of a wizard 6.


Also for getting level 3 spells with sorc-2 casting you need to reach level 8 which is impossible in e6 so you cap out to level 2 spells with sorcerer -2 casting.

It's "sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level", not "sorcerer - 2 levels", so the paladin gets access to spells on time and just has fewer slots.

noob
2019-01-24, 02:37 PM
That looks pretty good, actually. I would personally replace the Whirlwind Attack with moving Acrobatic Charge to 6th, since that fits the mobile fighting style better and they can pretty easily take Whirlwind Attack given that they've gotten two of the feat prereqs for free, but that's mostly a matter of taste.



That's...not at all how it works. "Caster level" and "effective level for casting spells" are the same thing; all that clause means is that a paladin 3/wizard 3 with SotAO has CL 6 instead of CL 3 for his wizard spells, not the spells/day and spells known of a wizard 6.



It's "sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level", not "sorcerer - 2 levels", so the paladin gets access to spells on time and just has fewer slots.
So why do they feel the need to specify in practiced spellcaster that it does not increase the spell per day or spells known?

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-01-24, 03:45 PM
So why do they feel the need to specify in practiced spellcaster that it does not increase the spell per day or spells known?

As reminder text, presumably. But note that in Practiced Spellcaster itself, it says "This does not affect your spells per day or spells known. It only increases your caster level, which would help you penetrate SR and increase the duration and other effects of your spells," emphasis mine, not "caster level for casting spells" or the like.

Also note that the PHB defines caster level in its glossary:

caster level: A measure of the power with which a spellcaster casts a spell. Generally, a spell’s caster level is the spellcaster’s class level."
...which does not reference spellcasting progression in any way.

tricktroller
2019-01-25, 10:09 AM
Yeah Noob I think you have some of those ideas skewed. SotAO only allows you to combine your caster level for determining variable effects, it doesn't give you full casting as a wizard with a single level dip. Also, the casting is still Divine and does not have ASF unless you take SotAO. When I say sorcerer casting -2 spells per day I mean using the tables for spells known and spells per day, not changing their magic to Arcane.

Also as for the Dragon shaman having a level 15 feature you are right. These options have been used in previous games that were not E6 and I guess I missed removing some of those features.

Back to Pair;
I like the idea of giving them acrobatic charge at 6th instead of whirlwind attack as well, thanks for that!

So it would be
Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and to saves at 2nd. Pick from the following class abilities:
1: @2nd Evasion, @4th Uncanny Dodge, @6th Imp. Uncanny Dodge,
or
2:@1st Dodge, @3rd Spring Attack, @6th gain Acrobatic Charge class feature

I think that would really bring the swashbuckler to a place where it is different from the swordsage or the warblade.

Corenthius
2019-01-26, 11:33 AM
Why give the Tier 1 classes even more power? They can already pretty much play any style they want. What is the point of casting while raged for a wizard?
The grapple bonus to monks forces that character to play that role. The full BAB and d12 hit die just put him on par with the current 3.5 Barbarian.
Overall, I just think it throws all balance and individuality out the window. If you want combat maneuvers play a class that has them or homebrew a class that has a more limited selection, but can do a few other things, or simply multiclass. If you want to be a full spellcaster, then play a full spellcaster. I know you put some work into this, but you should just play a gestalt game instead.

noob
2019-01-26, 01:27 PM
Why give the Tier 1 classes even more power? They can already pretty much play any style they want. What is the point of casting while raged for a wizard?
The grapple bonus to monks forces that character to play that role. The full BAB and d12 hit die just put him on par with the current 3.5 Barbarian.
Overall, I just think it throws all balance and individuality out the window. If you want combat maneuvers play a class that has them or homebrew a class that has a more limited selection, but can do a few other things, or simply multiclass. If you want to be a full spellcaster, then play a full spellcaster. I know you put some work into this, but you should just play a gestalt game instead.

Raging is cool even if it is just for being angry.
Rage means you can be more angry than someone without rage.
Also the whole thing is that he wanted to make the base mundane classes correct so adding rage to some casters is not a problem.
If we raise the height of everybody the people who are high in the sky and the people on the ground will both be above the mud afterwards.
As for gestalt maybe the creator of the thread did not want fighters picking 3 different martial initiator classes and then having to manage 3 kinds of maneuver recovery systems(it would boost them a bit but it would be such a chore to manage that)

tricktroller
2019-01-26, 03:36 PM
Honestly, Corenthius, I disagree with you almost entirely on all of your points and I will break them down here.

My biggest disagreement with you is your argument of "If you want combat maneuvers play a class that has them or homebrew a class that has a more limited selection, but can do a few other things, or simply multiclass. If you want to be a full spellcaster, then play a full spellcaster. "

The idea behind this is to reduce the need for playing D&D dodgeball. Dodge, dip, dive, duck, and dodge to get a fighter with some maneuvers, a cleric that's a skill monkey, or a monk that is actually halfway decent in a grapple compared to a barbarian in spiked armor. Gestalt is interesting but I find that even that leads to so many problems.

I honestly feel like one of the greatest pieces of this class additions list is the reduction in number of books needed because it gives you so many options that you'd normally ha e to dumpster dive through books to find.

Secondly, I'm hardly blasting tier one classes with power by giving them minor increases to skills/hp/BAB and a half speed class feature, but it does allow for a lot of flavor. The other thing to keep in mind is that this is an E6 game so the wizard is never going to get to that mega power arc. Third level spells are not game breaking even in a low magic e6 campaign.

Also how do you not see a rage casting wizard as cool? Dr Jekyll dude! Also a raging, wizard that fights with a great axe, using lost tradition to cast off of strength would be hilarious!

tricktroller
2019-02-04, 11:22 AM
For the casters what do you guys think about

Cleric, Druid, Psion, Wizard
1. Eclectic -Pick one of the following class features, gain it as a character of half your level.
• Rage, cast while raging
• Sneak Attack, or +4 skills per level and High Ref
• Favored Enemy, or +2 skills per level, Increase HD by 1 size gain high Fort or Ref
• Smite Evil, or Increase HD by 1 size, gain full BAB
• Monk unarmed Damage and IUAS, or +2 skills per level increase BAB by one step
• Skirmish, or +4 skills per level, high Fort
• Mind Blade, or gain bonus feats @1st,3rd, and 6th
• Arcane Channeling, or Increase BAB by one step and HD by one step

That way they get the base class ability at half progression or some other options.

tricktroller
2019-04-04, 03:46 PM
Hey everyone!
I haven't posted on here in awhile, but I have made several changes that I think will make more classes playable, or add some much needed support to a class.

Here are the following classes that have gottens omething new or different. Changes will be marked in red.

Warmage
1. Increase BAB to ¾, HP to D8, Prof. All martial weapons, 6+Int Skills. Cast touch spells through melee attacks
2. Gain +3 DC to all spells, and +5 to CL to overcome SR. Effects like Evasion do not function against your spells.


Soulknife
1. Gain Full Base attack, All Martial Weapons, Mind blade can be any weapon you are proficient with, including two weapons and ranged weapons. You may imbue your weapon with a psychic strike as a swift action.
2. Gain Psionic Powers and Points as a Psychic Warrior, gain bonus feats as Psychic Warrior. Shape Mind blade at 1st

Psychic Warrior
1. Double the number of power points gained per day (Including bonus points) and number of powers known. Gain ability to channel powers into weapon as duskblade.
2. Change to full base attack, change Will save to high, HD to D12, Skills to 6+Int, gain one Psychic Mantle.

Here is a https://docs.google.com/document/d/1M9uZtJ0llwXaTc79tcwhQTc0UTYAuDsk7TmFjeDHEWI/edit?usp=sharing link to the new list

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-04-05, 12:24 PM
2. Gain +3 DC to all spells, and +5 to CL to overcome SR. Effects like Evasion do not function against your spells.


While it's certainly a novel idea, and it comes on the Warmage who can certainly use the help, the first and third benefit are a bit problematic, to the point that you'd probably see every Warmage take this option over the other one.

Regarding the DC boost, the Warmage starts getting save-or-dies with 4th level spells, and pumping his DCs (and thereby making it more attractive to keep pumping them with feats and such) would tend to make those SoDs too effective, and possible encourage the Warmage to cast those over the straight blasting spells that he's supposed to rely on.

Regarding ignoring Evasion, firstly "effects like Evasion" is a bit broad (does it include Mettle, because it has a similar save-upgrading effect? Energy immunities, because they let you avoid all damage from a spell?), and secondly handing out abilities that ignore particular defenses entirely isn't the best idea; Evasion in particular is basically the rogue's (and other squishy classes') main answer to blasting spells because they lack martial classes' high HD and Con, so taking that away on top of increasing DCs that make it more likely to fail their save and take full damage is a bit much.

Here's how I'd tweak it: "Gain +3 DC to spells that only deal hit point damage and +1 DC to all other warmage spells, and +5 to CL checks to overcome SR. Characters with Evasion or Improved Evasion who save against your spells still take 1/4 normal damage instead of no damage, and characters with Improved Evasion who fail their saves against your spells take 3/4 normal damage instead of 1/2 damage." That gives what was probably the intended effect (it's hard for people to avoid the Warmage's blasting) without changing their playstyle too much or entirely screwing over rogues and similar.


2. Change to full base attack, change Will save to high, HD to D12, Skills to 6+Int, gain one Psychic Mantle.

Because this perk is focused on making the Psychic Warrior more of a warrior where the other one is focused on making it more of a manifester, I'd probably limit the selection of mantles that can be chosen to more violent and/or "fighter-y" ones, something like the following list: Conflict, Consumption, Death, Destruction, Energy, Force, Freedom, Guardian, Justice, Mental Power, Pain and Suffering, and Physical Power. That avoids the generally caster-y mantles, and the alignment ones that are only really in-theme for the ardent, while still giving you a broad choice from 2/5 of the mantles.

tricktroller
2019-04-05, 12:40 PM
Thanks for your reply! 4th level spells won't be much of a problem as this is for an E6 game. I made a listof feats that would allow someone to get a single 4th level spell, but they can only cast it once a week. So I shouldn't have the problem of them lobbing lots of 4th level save or dies.

Secondly I like the ability to get rid of evasion/mettle but it does not apply to things like energy resistaces. I am also ok with it doing like you said, or just forcing them to reroll if they save the frist time. THat way you still have the ability, but it isn't guaranteed to work against the warmage.

I am very much in favor of limiting their mantles to the fighter-y type ones and will probably have an addendum to make that change. I'm also ok with replacing the ability entirely with something else. I try not to stack too many different "casting" abilities like giving casters/manifesters martial maneuvers and stuff.

PairO'Dice Lost
2019-04-05, 01:18 PM
Thanks for your reply! 4th level spells won't be much of a problem as this is for an E6 game. I made a listof feats that would allow someone to get a single 4th level spell, but they can only cast it once a week. So I shouldn't have the problem of them lobbing lots of 4th level save or dies.

E6 still includes feats to give 4ths or classes that get them as their capstone, which is why I pointed that out; usually people forget that Warmages get them before high levels because the first few levels are the standard magic missile/scorching ray/lightning bolt loadout. But if the version in your campaign is that limited, you'll probably be okay.


Secondly I like the ability to get rid of evasion/mettle but it does not apply to things like energy resistaces. I am also ok with it doing like you said, or just forcing them to reroll if they save the frist time. THat way you still have the ability, but it isn't guaranteed to work against the warmage.

Making targets roll their saves twice and take the lowest instead of interfering with Evasion and Mettle is a good alternative, I think. Simplifies the math and doesn't specifically screw over rogues.


I am very much in favor of limiting their mantles to the fighter-y type ones and will probably have an addendum to make that change. I'm also ok with replacing the ability entirely with something else. I try not to stack too many different "casting" abilities like giving casters/manifesters martial maneuvers and stuff.

Nah, giving them mantles is actually a good choice, there are already ACFs that give mantles to various manifesters so it's in-theme.

tricktroller
2019-04-05, 01:25 PM
Yeah I think I like either reroll successful saves with evasion and mettle or roll two dice and take the lowest.

Ok I thought giving them Mantles would be kind of neat, give them some stuff that will help out but nothing crazy powerful. I'm really trying to balance all the options on all the characters so there isn't a best class to take, but that all of them are playable and useful in more areas than just "I blast stuff" or "I swing sword!" Also the campaign is focused heavily on roleplaying and character development as opposed to hack and slash all the time.

tricktroller
2019-04-05, 02:20 PM
If you have any thoughts on any of the class additions, I would love to hear them!

ericgrau
2019-04-07, 12:50 PM
Mostly ok power bumps. Most is less insane than a martial gestalt.

Don't underestimate full BAB or a +X. This is perhaps the most common mistake in excessive house rules. Auto succeding checks breaks some things while doing nothing about others. It's too swingy. Like uberchargers you either wreck encounters or the DM negates it with foes or terrain and you're totally useless. In general a +2 is a decent strength bump and a +4 is a huge bump. Don't compare it to die size (20), compare it to chance of success (10ish, maybe 5ish or 15ish depending on circumstances). Stacking full BAB and spell buffs and additional bonuses up to +8ish above a warrior is just no. Don't. Stop. Auto passing attack rolls isn't fixing anything. It's usually breaking things until you send foes not subject to attack rolls and then bye bye all of martial usefulness. Besides still doing nothing in the other areas that may have prompted this radical response. i.e., it breaks low op into a million pieces while doing nothing to help high op. Pathfinder Alpha did something like this and it was a spectacular failure that was toned back to nothing significant, in order to make Pathfinder playable.

Otherwise I have only minor quibbles that hopefully others will notice. But at least those things are playable.

noob
2019-04-07, 02:12 PM
Mostly ok power bumps. Most is less insane than a martial gestalt.

Don't underestimate full BAB or a +X. This is perhaps the most common mistake in excessive house rules. Auto succeding checks breaks some things while doing nothing about others. It's too swingy. Like uberchargers you either wreck encounters or the DM negates it with foes or terrain and you're totally useless. In general a +2 is a decent strength bump and a +4 is a huge bump. Don't compare it to die size (20), compare it to chance of success (10ish, maybe 5ish or 15ish depending on circumstances). Stacking full BAB and spell buffs and additional bonuses up to +8ish above a warrior is just no. Don't. Stop. Auto passing attack rolls isn't fixing anything. It's usually breaking things until you send foes not subject to attack rolls and then bye bye all of martial usefulness. Besides still doing nothing in the other areas that may have prompted this radical response. i.e., it breaks low op into a million pieces while doing nothing to help high op. Pathfinder Alpha did something like this and it was a spectacular failure that was toned back to nothing significant, in order to make Pathfinder playable.

Otherwise I have only minor quibbles that hopefully others will notice. But at least those things are playable.

Uberchargers are not trivial to negate with terrain: they have the ability to jump during their charge and some gets also the ability to make one or more deviations during a charge.
also you should be aware it is for E6 so full bab gives only a +3 to attack rolls relatively to the weakest bab.
Furthermore hitting the target is usually not hard (50% miss chance + mirror image + invisibility + like 20 armor for low ac stuff: all that is bypassable): what is hard is killing it and all the monsters in a 5 miles radius before any of them gets to play.

tricktroller
2019-04-08, 07:31 AM
I'm guessing that you are referring to the Barbarian getting a +8 bonus to strength and con?

Honestly, a +2 to hit and a +3 to damage really isn't that worrying as a DM. I really like the idea of the barbarian being this massive terrifying monster on the battlefield, so that in this game they actually are set apart from the fighter, and gives them the ability to tank via pure fear of that guy hitting everyone.

tricktroller
2019-04-15, 08:06 AM
Here is the current state of the class additions list.

Barbarians
1. Gain maneuvers like a Warblade with access to Desert Wind, Iron Heart, and Stone Dragon
2. Rage grants +8 to strength and con instead of normal bonuses, and may rage once per encounter, instead of normal progression. (If choosing a variant like Ferocity the +8 goes to the corresponding bonuses.) @6th gain DR 5/- while raging (Stacks with all dr/-).

Paladin
1. Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White Raven
2. Change spellcasting to spirit shaman - 2 spells per day per level, add Conj. (Healing) spells to list

Ranger
1. Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Tiger Claw, Desert Wind, and Stone Dragon
2. Change spellcasting to spirit shaman - 2 spells per day per level, add summon nature’s ally to list

Swashbuckler
1. Gain maneuvers like Sword Sage with access to Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Iron Heart.
2. Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and to saves at 2nd. Pick one of these:
1: @2nd Evasion, @4th Uncanny Dodge, @6th Imp. Uncanny Dodge
2:@1st Dodge, @3rd Spring Attack, @6th gain Acrobatic Charge class feature

Psychic Warrior
1. Double the number of power points gained per day (Including bonus points) and number of powers known. Gain ability to channel powers into weapon as duskblade.
2. Change to full base attack, change Will save to high, HD to D12, Skills to 6+Int, gain one Psychic Mantle from following list: Conflict, Consumption, Death, Destruction, Energy, Force, Freedom, Guardian, Justice, Mental Power, Pain and Suffering, and Physical Power Gaining the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd levels powers at 1st, 3rd, and 5th level respectively.

Soulknife
1. Gain Full Base attack, All Martial Weapons, Mind blade can be any weapon you are proficient with, including two weapons and ranged weapons. You may imbue your weapon with a psychic strike as a swift action.
2. Gain Psionic Powers and Points as a Psychic Warrior, gain bonus feats as Psychic Warrior. Shape Mind blade at 1st

Hexblade
1. Swordsage maneuvers, access to Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, and Shadow Blade
2. Change spellcasting to Sorcerer - 2 spells per day per level, gain one extra spell known at each level from sorcerer list.

Knight
1. Gain Warblade maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart, and White Raven
2. Gain bonus feats as a Fighter, Also gain Improved Shield Bash or Shield Specialization @1st

Fighter
1. Gains maneuvers like a Warblade with access to three schools chosen at 1st level, regain one maneuver with each attack roll, including ranged, AOO, full round attacks, hasted attacks etc.
2. Gain Auras like a marshal (Use Str vs Cha), 6+Int Skills, high Will save.

Monk
1. Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Devoted Spirit, Desert Wind, and Setting Sun
2. Gain full base attack, d12 hit dice, a +6 to opposed rolls in combat.

Rogue
1. Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Diamond Mind
2. Change HD to d8, BAB to full, Fort save to good, gain bonus feat at 2nd, 4th, and 6th

Scout
1. Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Tiger Claw, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind
2. Gain the ability to make a full attack after moving up to one full move. Increase BAB to Full.

Spellthief
1. Gain Sword Sage maneuvers with access to Shadow Hand, and any two other schools.
2. Gain wizard spellcasting -1 spell per level, spells known drawn from Abj, Div, Enc, Ill, and Trans, cast off and bonus spells from Int.

Sorcerer
1. Gain bonus feats like a Fighter, but pick from bloodline, metamagic, or extra spell feats
2. Specialize in one school, ban three. Gain 4 extra spells per day per level for that school.

Cleric, Druid, Psion, Wizard
Eclectic -Pick one of the following class features, gain it as a character of half your level.
• • Rage, cast while raging
• • Sneak Attack, or +4 skills per level and High Ref
• • Favored Enemy, or +2 skills per level, Increase HD by 1 size gain high Fort or Ref
• • Smite Evil, or gain full BAB, high Fort
• • Monk unarmed Damage and IUAS, or +2 skills per level increase BAB by one step
• • Skirmish, or +4 skills per level, high Fort
• • Mind Blade, or gain bonus feats @1st,3rd, and 6th
• • Arcane Channeling, or Increase BAB by one step and HD by one step

Duskblade
1. Gain access to the Wizard spell list, a spellbook, choose spells from spellbook each day for spontaneous casting.
2. Add one Wizard school list to your spell list, gain fighter bonus feats.

Beguiler
1. ¾ BAB, d8 Hp, prof Medium armor and shields, gain 1 exotic or martial weapon prof
2. 10+Int skills, High Reflex, Evasion @4th level, Sneak attack as rogue ½ level

Warmage
1. Increase BAB to ¾, HP to D8, Prof. All martial weapons, 6+Int Skills. Cast touch spells through melee attacks
2. Gain +3 DC to all spells, and +5 to CL to overcome SR. Any successful save of a creature with evasion,mettle or an ability like it vs your spells must be rerolled.

Bards
1. Gain d8 hit points, good fort saves, and full base attack. Gain Dr/Cold Iron equal to your level, stacks with other sources. +1 spell per day per level.
2. Gain access to Crusader maneuvers using White Raven, Iron Heart, and Devoted Spirit. May use with a whip.

Warlock
1. 8+Int skills, Skirmish as scout, +1 Invocation at each level of Invocation. Least, Lesser, Etc
2. Change HP to D8, Fort save to High, Full BAB, Channel eldritch blast through any weapon as a standard action. (Ranged or Melee) @6th may channel Eldritch blast as part of a full attack action.(including TWF)

Dragon Shaman
1. Full BAB, Gain claw, bite as large dragon disciple at 1st, add +2 Str at 3rd &5th +2 Con at 6th, +1 natural armor at 2nd, 4th, and 8th,increase breath weapon damage by 1 die at 4th, 6th
2. Gain Marshal minor auras and grant move action, Gain paladin spellcasting and aura of courage. Draconic aura’s are increased by 2.(Not marshal auras)

Factotum
1. D10 Hp, 10+Int Skills, Full Base Attack, All High Saves, bonus feat at 1st.
2. Regain Inspiration Points in combat by spending a full round action concentrating.

Crusader
1. Marshal - Gain Auras like a marshal, +1 minor and Major Aura at 1st level gained.
2. Cast spells like Paladin, +1 spell per spell level, per day.

Warblade
1. Pick; Rage, Favored Enemy, Monk Unarmed Damage(And IUAS), or Skirmish, gain as your level.
2. Add Int modifier to armor class at 1st and saves at 2nd, 3rd Debilitating Aura (Paladin of Slaughter)

Sword Sage
1. Gain any one school of maneuvers, gain fighter bonus feat at 2nd and 6th.
2. Gain the ability to make a full attack after moving up to one full move. Increase BAB to Full.

Reinforcer
1. Gain D8 HD, Full BAB, quick cast as a duskblade.
2. Gain Auras like a marshal (Use Wis vs Cha), 6+Int Skills, high Will save.

nonsi
2019-04-15, 11:18 AM
.
Monks should have access to Diamond Mind.
Thematically speaking, no other class fits the bill as much as the Monk when it comes to using opponents' strength against them.

tricktroller
2019-04-15, 03:49 PM
Isn't that setting sun? THat is the one that lets them throw people around a bunch. Diamond mind is all of the defensive concentration check rolls.