When is spellcasting complete?

[RSP]

Reading through some other threads made me wonder: when is the act of spellcasting complete? Is it before the spell’s effects or after it?

Particularly, Eldritch Blast comes to mind. I’m pretty sure, RAW, at level 5+ you can target one creature with the first Blast, then change to a second creature for the second Blast (for instance if the first Blast killed it’s target).

So are you still casting the spell before that second target is chosen? Could someone (for instance, the target of the 2nd Blast) still Counterspell Eldritch Blast after the first Blast is resolved but prior to remaining ones going into effect?

I’m thinking if spellcasting takes “a single action to cast” for 1 Action spells, then yes, one is still casting throughout the process and a spell could still be Counterspelled even after an effect has taken place as the Action is not yet completed until the attacks are resolved.

Not sure this would apply to any other situations (or matter for anything else), but now that I’ve thought of one instance where it’s a question, I’d like a consistent answer. Figured I’d see if any GitPers have any helpful insight.

Thanks!

[PhoenixPhyre]

Reading through some other threads made me wonder: when is the act of spellcasting complete? Is it before the spell’s effects or after it?

Particularly, Eldritch Blast comes to mind. I’m pretty sure, RAW, at level 5+ you can target one creature with the first Blast, then change to a second creature for the second Blast (for instance if the first Blast killed it’s target).

So are you still casting the spell before that second target is chosen? Could someone (for instance, the target of the 2nd Blast) still Counterspell Eldritch Blast after the first Blast is resolved but prior to remaining ones going into effect?

I’m thinking if spellcasting takes “a single action to cast” for 1 Action spells, then yes, one is still casting throughout the process and a spell could still be Counterspelled even after an effect has taken place as the Action is not yet completed until the attacks are resolved.

Not sure this would apply to any other situations (or matter for anything else), but now that I’ve thought of one instance where it’s a question, I’d like a consistent answer. Figured I’d see if any GitPers have any helpful insight.

Thanks!

Eldritch Blast has duration instantaneous, despite being resolved in series. Thus, the two blasts happen at the same time in-fiction--either both are counterspelled or neither is. The fact that you can change targets between blasts is a game-level convenience, not an actual indication of a time delay (at least to me). This is born out by the fact that you can't move between blasts (unlike Attack action attacks).

Spells that have discrete timing steps say they do, like miniature meteors. Even duration spells can't be counterspelled once their effects start--they can be dispelled, but as soon as any of the effects are in the resolution process, it can't (officially) be counterspelled. And if a DM (out of kindness) lets someone jump in late, then either the whole spell is countered (successful check or spell level <= 3) or none of it is (failed check and spell level > 3).

That is, the resolution stack ideally goes like:

1) Player (or DM) states that a spell is being cast)
2) Pause for counterspell.
3) If not counterspelled, resolve targets and effects.
4) Dispel possible if non-instantaneous.

Once the effects start their resolution (step #3), counterspell is too late. And if you allow sequence breaking, then it's atomic--either all the effects are resolved or none are.

[holywhippet]

I believe spellcasting it complete when the caster releases the spell and the effects begin. For eldritch blast, as with all instantaneous spells, you have to choose your targets as part of casting the spell. You can't hit someone, see if they drop, then pick another target.

For counterspelling you have to counterspell when the spell is still being cast. As soon as the caster lets fly with the spell your opportunity is lost.

[RSP]

I believe spellcasting it complete when the caster releases the spell and the effects begin. For eldritch blast, as with all instantaneous spells, you have to choose your targets as part of casting the spell. You can't hit someone, see if they drop, then pick another target.


Eldritch Blast has duration instantaneous, despite being resolved in series. Thus, the two blasts happen at the same time in-fiction--either both are counterspelled or neither is. The fact that you can change targets between blasts is a game-level convenience, not an actual indication of a time delay (at least to me). This is born out by the fact that you can't move between blasts (unlike Attack action attacks).


Pretty sure not only can you resolve one Blast, see what happened, then choose a new target, but hasn’t JC rules that Repelling Blasts happen sequentially? That is, he ruled one Blast hits and the target moves 10’, thereby allowing the target to be knocked out of the 120’ range: so each Blast is its own discrete thing and happen one after the other, rather than at the same time (which would mean 2 blasts only moves the target 10’ total as opposed to 20’).

The not being able to move in between attacks is because you can’t move during Actions; moving between attacks made with a weapon is the exception to that rule.

Unless I’m missing something?

Edit: for reference

“June 26, 2015 Yes, Repelling Blast can push a target out of the range of subsequent beams from eldritch blast. https://t.co/NFvn2tEhSX — Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford)”

And

“@JeremyECrawford Eldritch Blast: are the attacks resolved in parallel or sequence? Do you have to pick all the targets first before rolling? — Jeremy Soard (@JeremySoard) June 26, 2015 Multiple attacks on the same turn aren’t simultaneous, unless a feature or spell says otherwise. https://t.co/6AHqYOcXKD — Jeremy Crawford (@JeremyECrawford)”

I appreciate the posts but don’t want to change EB to accommodate this situation. Thanks.

[Millstone85]

Each spell has (1) a casting time and (2) a duration. I believe the second starts once the first is over. And when the first is over, the spellcasting is done.

In the case of eldritch blast, the spellcasting is over after one action. It is too late to counterspell, no matter if the duration is instantaneous or a week long.

[RSP]

Each spell has (1) a casting time and (2) a duration. I believe the second starts once the first is over. And when the first is over, the spellcasting is done.

In the case of eldritch blast, the spellcasting is over after one action. It is too late to counterspell, no matter if the duration is instantaneous or a week long.

I’m thinking the crux is that choosing your targets isn’t part of spellcasting (which, for whatever reason, seems odd and counter-intuitive to me). This would fall in line with both EB and the Ready rules for spellcasting.

[Erys]

I’m thinking the crux is that choosing your targets isn’t part of spellcasting (which, for whatever reason, seems odd and counter-intuitive to me). This would fall in line with both EB and the Ready rules for spellcasting.

I believe this is correct.

Spells like EB are cast in an Instant while their effect(s) is(are) resolved during the Action (which, for spells like EB and SR, does include seeing results and switching targets between shots).

[Dalebert]

They've made it clear the intent is that EB is sequential and you can, for instance, change targets if the first blast kills the target. People are a bit too literal with "instantaneous". It's a mechanical term. It means that the spell effect is completely resolved during your turn before you do anything else, e.g. move or make a bonus action, and certainly before anyone else does something other than a reaction. Your ranger could, for instance, ready his giant slayer attack for right after a certain target takes damage and his attack could technically happen between blasts. Because reactions are also mechanically instantaneous.

[Teaguethebean]

Well we know the act of casting is complete before the spells effect occurs because if you hold an action to cast a spell the slot is still used up.

[Lunali]

They've made it clear the intent is that EB is sequential and you can, for instance, change targets if the first blast kills the target. People are a bit too literal with "instantaneous". It's a mechanical term. It means that the spell effect is completely resolved during your turn before you do anything else, e.g. move or make a bonus action, and certainly before anyone else does something other than a reaction. Your ranger could, for instance, ready his giant slayer attack for right after a certain target takes damage and his attack could technically happen between blasts. Because reactions are also mechanically instantaneous.

There's one spell I would put as an exception to that guideline. That being Magic Missile, which is explicitly simultaneous.

[Man_Over_Game]

Here's a step by step analysis of how spellcasting works from everything I've researched:


Components are used/spent.

INTERRUPT: No components or spell slots lost. (As with Silence)

The spell energy is held. (Using an Action for a Readied Action spell)

INTERRUPT: Components and spell slots lost (As with Counterspell, or losing Concentration on a Readied Spell)

Spell energy is released, required targets are chosen. (Using Reaction from a Readied spell)
Optional targets are chosen as the spell resolves.
Spell continues for the remaining duration.


This includes the information on how Readied actions work, how Contingency and Counterspell interact with components, and Sage Advice that states:
Q: For readying a spell or other action, does the target have to be in range?

A: Your target must be within range when you take a readied action, not when you first ready it.


Also note that spells like Hunter's Mark can choose a target after it's been cast, so it's entirely plausible for a spell to have targets be made as it resolves to completion. Scorching Ray has a casting time of "Instantaneous", but that doesn't mean that it cannot be readied, used for Contingency, cannot be counterspelled, and cannot choose individual targets one at a time.