Is Extra Turning worth it without DMM?

[Lelkeki]

Im playing a Cleric/Ordained champion/ Fist of raziel but not using any DMMs.

My Turn attempts are used solely on the OC abilities and maybe an occasional devotion feat.

Is Extra turning still worth it or would i be better off looking for something else instead?

I currently planned to take it at level 3 but if its just a minor impact feat, would it be better to pick it up later(15+)?

[Powerdork]

What's your Charisma bonus? Is it even a bonus?

[Particle_Man]

Well how often do you plan to use those abilities per adventuring day?

[Troacctid]

Four extra smites per day is fine, but certainly not of any vital importance, unless you're really leaning into smiting (and Fist of Raziel doesn't count, since its abilities only work on smite evil). At level 3, you don't even have Ordained Champion yet. I'd be surprised if there weren't something more immediately relevant to take at that level.

[Lelkeki]

What's your Charisma bonus? Is it even a bonus?

a +2 without any gear


Well how often do you plan to use those abilities per adventuring day?
Pre awesome smite only when i want some extra dmg, once i have awesome smite more frequently to attempt trips.


Four extra smites per day is fine, but certainly not of any vital importance, unless you're really leaning into smiting (and Fist of Raziel doesn't count, since its abilities only work on smite evil). At level 3, you don't even have Ordained Champion yet. I'd be surprised if there weren't something more immediately relevant to take at that level.

well just Knowledge devotion.



basicly i just want to know if i should take my other feats first to get the build going earlier and leave the extra turning as one of the last fillers

[Celestia]

It won't make you weaker, and if you have devotion feats, it will regularly be useful. It's a decent filler feat if there's nothing better that you want, but there are probably better things if you want to go whole hog on the optimization.

[Troacctid]

Knowledge Devotion would definitely be better.

[Particle_Man]

I should note that Extra Turning can be taken more than once, so this doesn't have to be an either/or question if you really, really like those Awesome Smites and want as many as possible.

[tiercel]

With a Cha modifier of +2, your 5 turning attempts would become 9, which would matter if you have a Devotion feat that you really, really like that costs 3 turning/extra use.

The question is, which Devotion (outside of Knowledge) would be worth it to you? (Also, do you need to keep to deity-fluff domain feats? Travel Devotion is a favorite for melee, but if you are following Heironeous, you might need to get your DM to be OK with shoehorning in Travel.)

Having the flexibility to use turns on “cool Devotion feat” or “more smiting” isn’t shabby; whether a modest bonus from Knowledge Devotion outweighs that will depend on the number and length of combats per day you’re likely to run into. (I tend to like options and burstiness better than pure numbers, all else equal, but that’s going to be part of your call.)

Also, how is your Int? Presumably it’s got to be the closest thing to a dump stat you’ve got; if you max Concentration and get the K-Religion ranks you need to PrC, you might barely be able to even unlock the other Knowledges to consistently get your +1/+1 if you pick up Knowledge Devotion. (If you can retrain/retcon your character into Cloistered Cleric to pick up free Knowledge Devotion then yay, I suppose, though you’re probably also taking a slight BAB hit, and tap dancing your way into explaining how your cloistered PC went Full Metal Armor.)

If you can hang on until you can take Holy Warrior, it might be easier than K-Devotion... but that’s 9th level, and you’re going to want to start counting your feats carefully (if you’re taking Extra Turning AND a devotion feat for it to power AND qualifying for Fist of Raziel).

[Lelkeki]

Snip

I could change the cleric levels into a cloistered variant.

Gotta keep the fluff domains so the Law domain would be the only other one i would spend turn attempts on aside from the OC stuff.

Int is just a 10 but if i change to Cloistered it should be fine.


Basicly after reading the responses here im just delaying Extra turning till high levels. A Nightstick or two and maybe a Reliquary Holy Symbol along the way should keep me covered for fueling my Devotions and smites.

[tiercel]

I could change the cleric levels into a cloistered variant.

Gotta keep the fluff domains so the Law domain would be the only other one i would spend turn attempts on aside from the OC stuff.

Int is just a 10 but if i change to Cloistered it should be fine.

Upside to Cloistered Cleric: you can get Knowledge Devotion for free by trading in the Knowledge or Inquisition Domain; more skill points to unlock Knowledge skills; identify without material component (note: you only get all Knowledge skills as class skills if you keep the Knowledge domain and buy KD with a feat slot, which you’d have to do at level 3+ OR if you trade in the Inquisition domain, which Heironeous also grants; KD only gives you one extra Knowledge skill as a class skill)

Downside to Cloistered Cleric: -2hp, -1 BAB (so Knowledge Devotion is, for many foes, only giving you +0/+1 vs if you stayed regular Cleric; the extra BAB loss if offset when you’re running divine power), you’re stuck with light armor until you enter Fist of Raziel

If you’re going to run Knowledge Devotion, you probably want to throw some resources at it (divine insight, SpC; Book of All Knowledge [if you have time to research much of the day first], CC; Book of Worldly Knowledge [if you have a buff round just to up your Knowledge check], MIC; Collector of Stories skill trick, CS; etc.)