Paladin/Bard multiclass question

[Quietus]

I'd been toying with an idea for a swashbuckling Sorcadin previously, but now I'm thinking about going 2 Paladin/X Bard (College of Swords) in an AL game once life settles down. My trouble is, I'm having some difficulty figuring out where to take my 2 levels of Paladin. I was thinking about starting out with Bard 1, getting two levels of Paladin, then going full Bard from there out. However, this means that I won't have Extra Attack until level 8. Being that I plan to go Duelist the entire way, half elf/dex-based sword and board style, how badly am I likely to feel like I'm falling behind? Will my Divine Smite and spellcasting abilities fill in the hole during those three levels in which I'm lacking that all important second attack, or should I go pure Swords Bard up to 6, then take my two levels of Paladin? I feel like getting that full flavor in those first three levels is important to me, but AL being what it is, I don't want to hurt other players at the table as an exchange.

[MinMaxMunchking]

Just came back from a Christmas/New Year's one-shot. I played Dragonborn Paladin 2/Sword Bard 3, but I picked TWF style, because screw waiting for lvl 8 to be able to hit stuff twice per turn. Not an entirely optimized build, but I picked Paladin first for heavy armor and dumped DEX for STR.

I think TWF with STR is a significantly better choice overall because your damage output scales more optimally as you level up, and you only have 2 abilities to worry about instead of 3 with multiclassed Dexadin (you still need a minimum of 13 STR to multiclass in and out of Paladin). Dexadin Bard makes a bit more sense if you go half-elf though, but it still suffers from a lot of MADness.

Now I can objectively tell you that being able to pick 6 Bard spells with just 3 levels of Bard worked perfectly for me at least. MVP spells were Skywrite (yes, you read that correctly) and, of course, Suggestion. We ultimately didn't even fight once - me and party Warlock uber-diplomanced and logisticized our way around the issue and took complete rule over the town we were operating in and around of, making it a happier, more joyful place to live.
So, depending on many factors, you may not even feel the lack of firepower if you decide to go out armed with just one pointy end after all.

[Quietus]

Huh, you know I can't recall ever playing a straight Bard. Always a 1 or 2 level dip at the very least.

At any rate, I went Paladin 1 for Heavy Armor etc, then Bard 6, Paladin 2, the rest Bard. Extra attack comes a little late for Sword Bards anyway, but you have all the other Bard goodies so you don't really feel behind. Starting Paladin 2 would probably work out too if you're looking for early smites.

I also like that doing it this way still gets you an extra skill going into Bard and you only learn one musical instrument, as that's not my thing for Bard flavor.

Thank you - that bolded bit is basically my concern. I don't want to feel like my party left me behind, or from their perspective, I don't want them to feel like I'm not pulling my weight. Flavor wise the early Paladin 2 is probably my ideal, I had been thinking about that first level in Bard to get three skills of choice, then 2 Paladin for smites - the instruments are secondary, but I really like the freedom of 3 Bard skills, 2 Elf skills, and 2 Background skills. That should help create a very Errol Flynn type character.



Just came back from a Christmas/New Year's one-shot. I played Dragonborn Paladin 2/Sword Bard 3, but I picked TWF style, because screw waiting for lvl 8 to be able to hit stuff twice per turn. Not an entirely optimized build, but I picked Paladin first for heavy armor and dumped DEX for STR.

I think TWF with STR is a significantly better choice overall because your damage output scales more optimally as you level up, and you only have 2 abilities to worry about instead of 3 with multiclassed Dexadin (you still need a minimum of 13 STR to multiclass in and out of Paladin). Dexadin Bard makes a bit more sense if you go half-elf though, but it still suffers from a lot of MADness.

Now I can objectively tell you that being able to pick 6 Bard spells with just 3 levels of Bard worked perfectly for me at least. MVP spells were Skywrite (yes, you read that correctly) and, of course, Suggestion. We ultimately didn't even fight once - me and party Warlock uber-diplomanced and logisticized our way around the issue and took complete rule over the town we were operating in and around of, making it a happier, more joyful place to live.
So, depending on many factors, you may not even feel the lack of firepower if you decide to go out armed with just one pointy end after all.

I do understand that the classic route is dumping dex and going Str paladin. However, my wife and I are both looking at playing Paladin/X characters, her going the more classic 6 Pally into X sorc. Originally we were both going to go sorcerer secondary, her the heavy armor tank going heavy on Paladin, and me the dex swashbuckler going heavy Sorcerer. However, I feel like Bard really fits the lassez faire, swinging from chandeliers, over the top ridiculous feel I wanted to create. Going dex heavy also creates a way for me to further differentiate our characters, despite in combat both of us using the same "Go in swinging, burst damage" sort of mechanic.

[Citan]

I'd been toying with an idea for a swashbuckling Sorcadin previously, but now I'm thinking about going 2 Paladin/X Bard (College of Swords) in an AL game once life settles down. My trouble is, I'm having some difficulty figuring out where to take my 2 levels of Paladin. I was thinking about starting out with Bard 1, getting two levels of Paladin, then going full Bard from there out. However, this means that I won't have Extra Attack until level 8. Being that I plan to go Duelist the entire way, half elf/dex-based sword and board style, how badly am I likely to feel like I'm falling behind? Will my Divine Smite and spellcasting abilities fill in the hole during those three levels in which I'm lacking that all important second attack, or should I go pure Swords Bard up to 6, then take my two levels of Paladin? I feel like getting that full flavor in those first three levels is important to me, but AL being what it is, I don't want to hurt other players at the table as an exchange.
Hi!

My opinion on this is simple.
2nd level of Paladin should never be taken before you get Bard 7.
As for the first...
IF "I want a STR heavy armor guy" (only reason for it is you want to get heavily martial with Dual Wielder + Mobile or Sharpshooter imo, otherwise DEX is the better choice, notably for better Initiative to open fight with big debuffs)
OR "I'm really afraid to die with only light armor"
THEN "Start Pal 1"
ELSE "Start Bard, go straight up to lvl 6 then see how you want to go next"

[Quietus]

Hi!

My opinion on this is simple.
2nd level of Paladin should never be taken before you get Bard 7.
As for the first...
IF "I want a STR heavy armor guy" (only reason for it is you want to get heavily martial with Dual Wielder + Mobile or Sharpshooter imo, otherwise DEX is the better choice, notably for better Initiative to open fight with big debuffs)
OR "I'm really afraid to die with only light armor"
THEN "Start Pal 1"
ELSE "Start Bard, go straight up to lvl 6 then see how you want to go next"

Why 7? Is that just for the fourth level spells? Or do you mean get to Bard6, and then possibly level Paladin starting at 7?

I kind of really want to get the Divine Smite ability as early as I can, that's why I'm considering picking up two levels of paladin early on.

[Citan]

Why 7? Is that just for the fourth level spells? Or do you mean get to Bard6, and then possibly level Paladin starting at 7?

I kind of really want to get the Divine Smite ability as early as I can, that's why I'm considering picking up two levels of paladin early on.
Well, to be honest I was saying that from a biaised point of view, because I don't see as good tactic to blow your highest slots on Smite, and I'm frustrated when my slots go empty too fast.

Also, yes, level 7 was because of 4th level spells.
With that said, it definitely depends on how you envision your character. I never see someone spending resource to buff himself as badwrongfun, so if you went Bard mainly for the better slots, some self-buffs and non-magical features, then by all means grab Divine Smite as soon as you want to play with it. :)
(Just maybe warn your party they should not view you as a Bard but as an empowered, smiting-focused Paladin ^^).

Actually, I maybe should have put this disclaimer in the first place:
1. It's near impossible to make a "deadweight" character in 5e, unless you try really hard at it (and Paladin/Bard is in fact one of the best multiclass possible).
2. Any non-deadweight character is good enough to pull his weight, so there is absolutely no need for optimization.
-> Your character -> your way to have fun -> your choices first and foremost. :)

[Quietus]

Just thought of a follow up question to this; how much is it likely to hurt me if I focus on Dex over Cha for this character? Both will start at 16, but I'm breaking it down like so :

Dex - To hit, to damage, AC, initiative
Cha - Spell DCs, Bardic Inspiration uses

Between the two, dex seems to be the clear winner. However, I'm worried about feeling like three Bardic Inspiration is going to be tight, particularly since as a Swords Bard it will directly affect how frequently I can use my Flourish feature. Both might just stay at 16 for a while, as Warcaster may be a high priority for this type of character, but long term it's going to be a hard decision to make.

[Citan]

Just thought of a follow up question to this; how much is it likely to hurt me if I focus on Dex over Cha for this character? Both will start at 16, but I'm breaking it down like so :

Dex - To hit, to damage, AC, initiative
Cha - Spell DCs, Bardic Inspiration uses

Between the two, dex seems to be the clear winner. However, I'm worried about feeling like three Bardic Inspiration is going to be tight, particularly since as a Swords Bard it will directly affect how frequently I can use my Flourish feature. Both might just stay at 16 for a while, as Warcaster may be a high priority for this type of character, but long term it's going to be a hard decision to make.
Hi again! :)

I honestly don't think any "objective" (or even not too far from it) answer is possible because there are simply too many factors involved.

For example, as far as damage goes, depending on how you use Bardic Inspiration and the rolls you get, it could even out compared to +1 for short fights.
If you use instead it defensively, that one more time where you get a few more AC points may mean less resources downwards to keep concentration or heal.
There is also the matter of spells! If you spend concentration on Greater Invisibility (once you get it obviously ^^) you can fare fine enough with a 16 DEX.
If you expect to meet many humanoids, a successful Hold Person will mean much more to your (and your friends)'s damage than any level of DEX you'd have. Same with Hold Monster later.
Even a successful Polymorph may do much more good to the fight than a dozen successful hits.

On the opposite side, making weapon attacks are expected to take somewhere between 60% and 90% of everything you are doing in a fight most days, so putting a +1 here early on means many many more successful hits in your life, sometimes making that decisive difference between hit and miss.

So back to square one: if you consider magic as simply a way to enhance your martial abilities, and are clear with that with everyone, then you can safely boost DEX first: after all, the number of Bardic Inspiration would mostly affect you only, and you will select spells that don't care how high or low your CHA is.
(As for being party face, honestly one or two points don't weigh much in the face of Expertise and possible Enhance Ability support).
And it does not mean you'd be "only good to make weapon attacks" as a result: not only can you use regular BI for non-hostile challenges, not only can you learn quite a few spells that are useful in many different situations, you can also learn some spells that are effective offensively without high CHA, as long as you use them smartly (obvious ones being Heat Metal, Silence, Plant Growth, Animate Objects).

If you plan on being a spellcaster that simply likes to mixes magic and swords, or you simply don't know how you really want to play in the end, it could be better to start with 16 in both then see how you want to go as you level up.

One important factor that may decide you to favor DEX or CHA is availability of party tactics and how you integrate in them: having "only" 16 DEX is usually very fine for most people when they have themselves or other people granting advantage or otherwise helping you (Expertise to Shove, spells like Blindness, close-by Wolf Barbarian or any good martial Shoving for you, Ranger/Druid/whatever restraining the enemy, Cleric having a habit of Blessing you, etc).

---> I'm not remembering your character concept well but, if you aren't sure how to build, just start with both 16 and see where that leads you. "If you play in a regular party all those questioning will have answers found without you looking after a few levels" is my view on the topic. :)

[Quietus]

Thanks Citan! You're entirely right, in the end, and it's basically something I was slowly working toward myself - don't worry about it now, and by the time I can actually do anything about it, I'll know what I need. If 3 BI isn't enough, I'll know it by the time I reach 6th level, for certain.