Druid / Barbarian multi-classing

[Bannan_mantis]

I've recently been considering about the ideas of doing a druid/barbarian multiclass in a future campaign and was wondering what are some of the more effective ways to build it and things like what should most levels be spent on. This is for a mainly melee based character so I want this to be more effective in melee rather than spell casting (even though druids are very good spellcasters, even then some concentration buffs could be good while wildshaped.) I've thought about some of this and here are a few ideas I've come up with in terms of building a character like this.

Levels of barbarian: this is a very difficult one since level distribution can vary a lot depending on what areas you wanna focus on more. Here are a few ideas about how many levels you should aim for in each class. I'm keeping this to just levels of barbarian since these tend to be more druid than barbarian in level distribution

Barbarian 1 to 2: 1 nets you rage and 2 gets you danger sense and reckless attack. From what I can tell this is for if you don't mind damage being kinda low and just wanna be near unkillable

Barbarian 3: this opens primal paths which does cost a lot in terms of levels but in return you get very good abilities. One extra rage and subclass abilities are very effective. From what I can tell the most effective choices are berserker and totem, most of the others have damage based abilities themed around the class or they're the battlerager and they wanna use armour which wouldn't work on a druid since they can't wear metal armour. Totem is for if you maybe wanna be a little more mobile in a few ways (eagle, elk) or if you wanna tank (bear) while Berserker frenzy increases damage by almost double on some forms (mainly forms where their main damage comes from one big 2d10 or 4d8 attack.)

Barbarian 4 to 5: barbarian 4 is if you really wanna get extra feats which is honestly not worth it in my eyes but barbarian 5 grants extra attack which is extremely good. The only downside is just the costs of this, 5 levels is a large amount of restricts CR levels and spell slots by a large margin

Overall these are okay choices but they all come with downsides, is one level of barbarian the best bet or is more better?

As far as I can tell the race you should choose is something where you have things you can use in wildshape. Lizardfolk would be good for bonus action bite attacks which would deal much more damage in wildshape compared to normal form. Tortle means very high AC. Genasi would net you some more interesting buffs and maybe a few resistances. Bugbear gives reach. Half orc gets you mini brutal critical and relentless.

Also it seems like innate spellcasters are a bad choice since, until level 18, not casting spells in your wildshape form (which is your main state for combat.)

Most feats are okay but half feats are overshadowed by more specific feats that can work in wildshape. Resilient for extra saving throw proficiencies is nice. Sentinel for extra defending. Savage attacker gives a flat boost to damage on rolls. Grappler is pretty good but when you consider the amount of grappling animals it kinda loses its value (crocodile, constrictor, giant versions of those and that's it as far as my knowledge goes.) Lucky still works and enough said really (lucky is just one of the best feats overall.)

From what I can see the main feats that stand out the most are Sentinel, Resilient and lucky out of all of these. Resilient can mean proficiency with con and wis saving throws which makes you good on two of the most common saving throws in the game. Lucky is well lucky, fewer people hitting you and more you hitting them. And finally sentinel, opportunity attacks were already good when in a high single attack form so being able to do it more commonly and having added effects is just too good.


Anyway from what I can tell that's the main things you should know before thinking of a druid / barbarian, any thoughts? Corrections and critiques are very helpful

[hymer]

Anyway from what I can tell that's the main things you should know before thinking of a druid / barbarian, any thoughts? Corrections and critiques are very helpful
Sounds like you've put some thought into it, and you're likely to make good choices. But one thing I want to mention is that you should have a talk with your DM about how various barbarian abilities and feats will interact with wild shape. It is one of the least clear areas in the rules, and DMs are highly likely to have their own interpretations on at least some things.

[Bannan_mantis]

Sounds like you've put some thought into it, and you're likely to make good choices. But one thing I want to mention is that you should have a talk with your DM about how various barbarian abilities and feats will interact with wild shape. It is one of the least clear areas in the rules, and DMs are highly likely to have their own interpretations on at least some things.

True, that could mean a lot when choosing. I'll check but if he says that you can't perform certain abilities while in wildshape (eg. rage, extra attack, reckless attack, etc.) Then I'll reconsider it. This is more of a "if abilities can combine" type of build, so things like extra attack, danger sense, rage and other stuff from barb still work on druid.

[TheAxeman]

Im running a Bearbarian right now and he is a lvl2 Barb and a lvl 2 Druid, I think im only gonna go to lvl 3 Barb and do bear totem.

[Man_Over_Game]

For levels of Barbarian, I wouldn't recommend more than 2. You just don't need much more than that, and 1 is more than enough for the Rage.

For Race, the best choice is honestly the Gnome. Advantage on Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma saving throws from Gnome, having a high Strength/Constitution/Dexterity score from your beast form means there's not much that's going to be afflicting you.

Lastly, Sentinel is a great choice, as you've said. Grappling can be made better, but you have to ask your DM how he wants to handle those kinds of questions (can bears grapple?).

For spells, keep those that do not require concentration to maintain. Jump, Longstrider, Darkvision, Water Breathing, Water Walk, and others.

[Bannan_mantis]

For levels of Barbarian, I wouldn't recommend more than 2. You just don't need much more than that, and 1 is more than enough for the Rage.

For Race, the best choice is honestly the Gnome. Advantage on Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma saving throws from Gnome, having a high Strength/Constitution/Dexterity score from your beast form means there's not much that's going to be afflicting you.

Lastly, Sentinel is a great choice, as you've said. Grappling can be made better, but you have to ask your DM how he wants to handle those kinds of questions (can bears grapple?).

For spells, keep those that do not require concentration to maintain. Jump, Longstrider, Darkvision, Water Breathing, Water Walk, and others.

Hmmm okay and do you agree that maybe 5 levels of barbarian are too costly for the extra attack and path feature?

[Citan]

I've recently been considering about the ideas of doing a druid/barbarian multiclass in a future campaign and was wondering what are some of the more effective ways to build it and things like what should most levels be spent on. This is for a mainly melee based character so I want this to be more effective in melee rather than spell casting (even though druids are very good spellcasters, even then some concentration buffs could be good while wildshaped.) I've thought about some of this and here are a few ideas I've come up with in terms of building a character like this.

Levels of barbarian: this is a very difficult one since level distribution can vary a lot depending on what areas you wanna focus on more. Here are a few ideas about how many levels you should aim for in each class. I'm keeping this to just levels of barbarian since these tend to be more druid than barbarian in level distribution

Barbarian 1 to 2: 1 nets you rage and 2 gets you danger sense and reckless attack. From what I can tell this is for if you don't mind damage being kinda low and just wanna be near unkillable

Barbarian 3: this opens primal paths which does cost a lot in terms of levels but in return you get very good abilities. One extra rage and subclass abilities are very effective. From what I can tell the most effective choices are berserker and totem, most of the others have damage based abilities themed around the class or they're the battlerager and they wanna use armour which wouldn't work on a druid since they can't wear metal armour. Totem is for if you maybe wanna be a little more mobile in a few ways (eagle, elk) or if you wanna tank (bear) while Berserker frenzy increases damage by almost double on some forms (mainly forms where their main damage comes from one big 2d10 or 4d8 attack.)

Barbarian 4 to 5: barbarian 4 is if you really wanna get extra feats which is honestly not worth it in my eyes but barbarian 5 grants extra attack which is extremely good. The only downside is just the costs of this, 5 levels is a large amount of restricts CR levels and spell slots by a large margin

Overall these are okay choices but they all come with downsides, is one level of barbarian the best bet or is more better?

As far as I can tell the race you should choose is something where you have things you can use in wildshape. Lizardfolk would be good for bonus action bite attacks which would deal much more damage in wildshape compared to normal form. Tortle means very high AC. Genasi would net you some more interesting buffs and maybe a few resistances. Bugbear gives reach. Half orc gets you mini brutal critical and relentless.

Also it seems like innate spellcasters are a bad choice since, until level 18, not casting spells in your wildshape form (which is your main state for combat.)

Most feats are okay but half feats are overshadowed by more specific feats that can work in wildshape. Resilient for extra saving throw proficiencies is nice. Sentinel for extra defending. Savage attacker gives a flat boost to damage on rolls. Grappler is pretty good but when you consider the amount of grappling animals it kinda loses its value (crocodile, constrictor, giant versions of those and that's it as far as my knowledge goes.) Lucky still works and enough said really (lucky is just one of the best feats overall.)

From what I can see the main feats that stand out the most are Sentinel, Resilient and lucky out of all of these. Resilient can mean proficiency with con and wis saving throws which makes you good on two of the most common saving throws in the game. Lucky is well lucky, fewer people hitting you and more you hitting them. And finally sentinel, opportunity attacks were already good when in a high single attack form so being able to do it more commonly and having added effects is just too good.


Anyway from what I can tell that's the main things you should know before thinking of a druid / barbarian, any thoughts? Corrections and critiques are very helpful
Hi!

First things first...

For levels of Barbarian, I wouldn't recommend more than 2. You just don't need much more than that, and 1 is more than enough for the Rage.

For Race, the best choice is honestly the Gnome. Advantage on Wisdom/Intelligence/Charisma saving throws from Gnome, having a high Strength/Constitution/Dexterity score from your beast form means there's not much that's going to be afflicting you.

Lastly, Sentinel is a great choice, as you've said. Grappling can be made better, but you have to ask your DM how he wants to handle those kinds of questions (can bears grapple?).

For spells, keep those that do not require concentration to maintain. Jump, Longstrider, Darkvision, Water Breathing, Water Walk, and others.
Sadly, I'll have to strongly disagree on both bolded points. :)

First of all: Barb 2 vs Barb 3/5.

Barb 5 is indeed passable, if you consider you will spend most time in Wild Shape anyways: those 10 extra feet of movement are nice but can be done without, and I expect you'd pick a shape with Multiattack.
There is one caveat though: Shoves and Grapples! AFAIU, by RAW, only on an Attack action can you replace a weapon attack with a Shove or Grapple.
If you want, as a beast, both deal damage and inflict such a debuff, the solution is usually to simply pick a beast that has an auto rider (like Pounce) or bonus action Shove/Grapple. But that does limit the forms. Extra Attack brings versatility to you, and also makes you still pretty decent when you are out of shape.
It also means one more rage, which is pretty much a big deal for the character concept imo, but of course only OP can be the definitive judge of that. :)

Barb 3 though?
Resistance to all damage is great. You won't have proficiency in Dexterity so, even if Danger Sense increases your chance of making saves against some AOE spells, it's not the whole of it!
Between natural hazards dealing elemental damage, spells targeting anything mental that deal damage, creatures that have elemental damage, chances are you will be subjected to many things, especially at higher levels!

I'm not saying it's a "must have whatever happens". And I think it's not useful to pick this one too early, especially for such a dual-class where you'll probably want to up Druid as fast as possible until you get CR 2 creatures and possibly CR3+Elementals.

But for a character that is level 12+ it would be a really strong feature imo.

As for races...
Your logic is very valid as long as you have Wild Shapes, and considering you use rage on it.
What happens when you are out of shapes though?
What happens if you want to use Rage outside beast though?
Gnome is small, you won't even be able to Grapple or Shove Large creatures! You are nerfing many of Barbarian related features, especially the Shove and Grapple ones.
Again, if OP is ok putting those aside, and wanted to start Barbarian for some strange reasons (if you plan using rage, you don't plan on using concentration spells, so it may be better to get Wisdom proficiency), then yes Gnome is the best pick.

Otherwise...
- Centaur is probably the best choice overall if your DM admits that the Charge racial feature is compatible with your forms (unless you pick an eagle, I see no reason to refuse that): especially paired with Mobile feat, potentially Longstrider prebuff and Barb 5's extra 10 feet.
- Bugbear is a solid choice if you want to be still very competent out of shapes, and especially if you want to use Shoves/Grapples heavily thanks to "larger size" and extra reach. Goliath too. :)
- Loxodon is a decent choice if you are aiming for the long-end benefit.
- For classics, Half-Orc (stats), Variant Human (starting feat) or Duergar Dwarf (1/day Enlarge) work well too.

For less orthodox choices...
- Aarakocra might be fun, first so you can easily launch spells from optimal position when not raging, second to create surprise attacks from air (wild shape just as you close in). I admit it's 100% niche and not the best choice, just potentially heaps of fun.
- Tabaxi however is a good choice for unconventional builds focusing on mobility: the bonus DEX will help wearing medium armor, the CHA may push enough for CHA-based feats, more importantly if your DM accepts it of course Feline Agility will greatly help in reaching enemies and maybe grappling them back.

There is also the question of racial feats: some of them can be very interesting!

@OP, what sources are allowed for your game? Everything? "AL Legal" (PHB+1)?

In any cases, for how to level, everything boils down to how you want to play.
I'd still suggest though, in doubt, targeting a Barb 2 / Druid 6 ASAP, then probably Barb 2 / Druid 10 then reflect on how it fared so far to decide where to go next.
Reason for that is simply Elemental Forms. Earth Elemental especially. Not only does it fit perfectly stats-wise (max STR + CON = yummy, especially if you picked Loxodon -CON only AC- or Centaur -bonus action on move-) but the burrowing speed enhanced with any racial/magical/feat buff opens up very funny and powerful tactics, although we have to keep in mind it works on "unworked stone". AND it's a Large creature so you could Grapple/Shove things up to Huge size. :)

[Raynor007]

I've run one before, and it was one of the best builds I've played. Like yours, it was primarily a melee build, so I focused on Barbarian instead of Druid, and went Circle of the Moon for a more powerful Wild Shape. He was level 5, so Barb 3/Druid 2, and they synthesized very well. In my mind, the level you are playing at will determine where you focus. Were I to play him at higher levels, I would go Barb 5 for extra attack and Druid 6 for Primal Strike and CR2 beasts for Wild Shape.


For race, my character was a wood-elf, which gave bonuses to DEX and WIS. Since you're primarily fighting in Wild Shape, a high Dex is more important than a high strength for AC purposes, and wisdom will help with spellcasting, even if it's not a primary focus. You really can't get better than this.

For Feats, Brawny is great for shoving and grappling enemies and Mobile should apply while in Wild Shape, but frankly I'd just use the usual Feats (Alert, Lucky, Tough, Magic Initiate etc) if you decide not to use the ASIs.

Really though, for everything, pick what works for the character, not necessarily what's most optimal. The build is really powerful no matter what race or feats you pick.

[Bannan_mantis]

Hi!
@OP, what sources are allowed for your game? Everything? "AL Legal" (PHB+1)?

In any cases, for how to level, everything boils down to how you want to play.
I'd still suggest though, in doubt, targeting a Barb 2 / Druid 6 ASAP, then probably Barb 2 / Druid 10 then reflect on how it fared so far to decide where to go next.
Reason for that is simply Elemental Forms. Earth Elemental especially. Not only does it fit perfectly stats-wise (max STR + CON = yummy, especially if you picked Loxodon -CON only AC- or Centaur -bonus action on move-) but the burrowing speed enhanced with any racial/magical/feat buff opens up very funny and powerful tactics, although we have to keep in mind it works on "unworked stone". AND it's a Large creature so you could Grapple/Shove things up to Huge size. :)

Yep, everything has to be legal and huh, I think I'll consider this more but if you maybe don't plan on going for elemental forms for purely thematic reasons (like me >.<) is going to level 10 worth it when compared to level 5 barbarian? Also for races, I talked to my DM a bit and he said that not only can the barbarian abilities carry over but the Lizardfolk's proficiency and abilities related to bite attacks (hungry Jaws) carry over to, this combined with +2 con and +1 wis makes it one of the best choices doesn't it? Also I like your loxodon idea but sadly our DM isn't okay with Loxodon's on the table.

So with this thinking and extra rules would maybe going straight barbarian 5 then everything else druid be the right way to go for pure melee potential? Or is going barbarian 2 and druid everything else more effective? I want this guy to be a melee fighter more of a spellcaster so I don't care about losing some of the high level druid spells, even if they're good I want this guy to be a feral monster in combat.

[Xetheral]

Druid/Barbarian with Sentinel can make an amazing mount for another PC with Mounted Combat. A paladin in heavy armor with the level 6 aura would be a perfect rider. If you go this route, consider whether your DM likes large (or bigger) creatures that are too big to give the rider advantage from Mounted Combat. If so, Wolf Totem might be useful since you'll always be within 5' of the rider. Also, as a mount, you won't need to use Rage as often, since you'll be taking fewer attacks, and you can Reckless Attack with impunity.

[Bannan_mantis]

Druid/Barbarian with Sentinel can make an amazing mount for another PC with Mounted Combat. A paladin in heavy armor with the level 6 aura would be a perfect rider. If you go this route, consider whether your DM likes large (or bigger) creatures that are too big to give the rider advantage from Mounted Combat. If so, Wolf Totem might be useful since you'll always be within 5' of the rider. Also, as a mount, you won't need to use Rage as often, since you'll be taking fewer attacks, and you can Reckless Attack with impunity.

Huh, never even thought of this. It could be pretty good and even without wolf totem I could go into dire wolf and get the same effect only it's just for me. We do have a vengeance paladin so this could be a interesting tactic but we never thought about him getting mounted up. I'll take this into consideration

[MinMaxMunchking]

Sounds like you've put some thought into it, and you're likely to make good choices. But one thing I want to mention is that you should have a talk with your DM about how various barbarian abilities and feats will interact with wild shape. It is one of the least clear areas in the rules, and DMs are highly likely to have their own interpretations on at least some things.

Quote from the Wild Shape feature:

"You retain the benefit of any features from your class, race, or other source and can use them if the new form is physically capable of doing so. However, you can't use any of your special senses, such as darkvision, unless your new form also has that sense."

This "...physically capable of doing so..." doesn't limit any of the Barbarian's features at all. Extra Attack? Yes, the Tiger bites twice instead of once in 3-4 seconds it takes him to do that. Fast Movement? Dire Wolf runs more nimbly and is therefore 10ft faster. Rage? Big Brown Bear gets angry. Reckless Attack? Lion swings wildly. Bear Totem? You take half damage because fantasy. Danger Sense?... Fantasy.

Case closed.

[hymer]

Case closed.
I have seen differing opinions, like what happens with a bonus to movement speed if you take the form of a really slow animal, like a literal snail. I've heard a DM waffle on whether water elementals can get angry in any useful way. I've read the official Crawford opinion that any creature with a mouth can benefit from a dragonborn's breath attack, and butterflies were specifically allowed.

What you or I think of these interactions is really immaterial in the context of OP's question. We can state them politely as our humble opinions (or if you prefer, shout angrily and arrogantly into the void), and hopefully - possibly - contribute in some small way to OP's deliberations. But it's what the table decides on that goes, and the DM is the final arbiter of that game.

[Citan]

Yep, everything has to be legal and huh, I think I'll consider this more but if you maybe don't plan on going for elemental forms for purely thematic reasons (like me >.<) is going to level 10 worth it when compared to level 5 barbarian? Also for races, I talked to my DM a bit and he said that not only can the barbarian abilities carry over but the Lizardfolk's proficiency and abilities related to bite attacks (hungry Jaws) carry over to, this combined with +2 con and +1 wis makes it one of the best choices doesn't it? Also I like your loxodon idea but sadly our DM isn't okay with Loxodon's on the table.

So with this thinking and extra rules would maybe going straight barbarian 5 then everything else druid be the right way to go for pure melee potential? Or is going barbarian 2 and druid everything else more effective? I want this guy to be a melee fighter more of a spellcaster so I don't care about losing some of the high level druid spells, even if they're good I want this guy to be a feral monster in combat.
Hey again!
I missed that bit.
Well then it's really up to you, considering the arguments I gave above...
Plus the factyou really emphasize fighting... Then yes Barb 5 is certainly worth it.
suggestion: Barb 1 > Druid 2 > either bar5 first for more rages and such or Druid 6 for cr2 forms.
Whehter CR " creatures bring enough for yur concept to make Druid 9 worth is something Ill let others advise you on. ^:)

[Bannan_mantis]

Hey again!
I missed that bit.
Well then it's really up to you, considering the arguments I gave above...
Plus the factyou really emphasize fighting... Then yes Barb 5 is certainly worth it.
suggestion: Barb 1 > Druid 2 > either bar5 first for more rages and such or Druid 6 for cr2 forms.
Whehter CR " creatures bring enough for yur concept to make Druid 9 worth is something Ill let others advise you on. ^:)

The whole concept is of a character who is able to attack by using bites and claws rather than normal weapons so Barbarian 5 is the way I'll go. I talked to my DM a bit and for thematic reasons when I wildshape it's less of him turning into the animals outright and more the character changing his body to gain the abilities of the animal. From what I can tell a deadly combo is using giant hyena with Barbarian 5 / Druid 2 since the amount of things that stack are very big and lead to very high numbers, even outclassing a druid 6 / barbarian 1 allosaurus form in a lot of ways.

I think for now I've gotten enough information to make my character and will be good to build it from here.

[Trustypeaches]

True, that could mean a lot when choosing. I'll check but if he says that you can't perform certain abilities while in wildshape (eg. rage, extra attack, reckless attack, etc.) Then I'll reconsider it. This is more of a "if abilities can combine" type of build, so things like extra attack, danger sense, rage and other stuff from barb still work on druid.extra attack would be a hard no from me personally

[MinMaxMunchking]

I have seen differing opinions, like what happens with a bonus to movement speed if you take the form of a really slow animal, like a literal snail. I've heard a DM waffle on whether water elementals can get angry in any useful way. I've read the official Crawford opinion that any creature with a mouth can benefit from a dragonborn's breath attack, and butterflies were specifically allowed.

What you or I think of these interactions is really immaterial in the context of OP's question. We can state them politely as our humble opinions (or if you prefer, shout angrily and arrogantly into the void), and hopefully - possibly - contribute in some small way to OP's deliberations. But it's what the table decides on that goes, and the DM is the final arbiter of that game.

Yes, a DM can do whatever he/she pleases, that's besides the point. The problem with DM's DMing 5e games who arbitrarily pick and choose what is "legal" and what is not is that an overwhelming majority of them frankly have no clue what they are doing. I've heard stories of DMs requiring Paladins to burn spellslots on Divine Smites BEFORE an attack roll. Why? Well because that one time Timmy critted and one-shotted their precious 47HP Ogre completely ruined their awesome storyline and is therefore "OP".

I'll be the first to admit I often screw up badly when I make on-the-fly rulings as a DM, even though I'm relatively knowledgeable with 5e mechanics. So, when an autocratic DM who knows f*?=)all comes and starts changing core mechanics of classes and races willy-nilly, I'm out. You can do whatever the heck you want to do, but it's no longer a decently polished 5e, it's an untested new gaming system that I frankly don't want to be a tester for because it's probably going to suck, either for me or for someone else at the table.

And if you're going to make an argument that it's a ROLEPLAYING game, I wholeheartedly agree. It's a roleplaying GAME.


extra attack would be a hard no from me personally

Thanks for conveniently proving my point from above.

[Trustypeaches]

Yes, a DM can do whatever he/she pleases, that's besides the point. The problem with DM's DMing 5e games who arbitrarily pick and choose what is "legal" and what is not is that an overwhelming majority of them frankly have no clue what they are doing. I've heard stories of DMs requiring Paladins to burn spellslots on Divine Smites BEFORE an attack roll. Why? Well because that one time Timmy critted and one-shotted their precious 47HP Ogre completely ruined their awesome storyline and is therefore "OP".

I'll be the first to admit I often screw up badly when I make on-the-fly rulings as a DM, even though I'm relatively knowledgeable with 5e mechanics. So, when an autocratic DM who knows f*?=)all comes and starts changing core mechanics of classes and races willy-nilly, I'm out. You can do whatever the heck you want to do, but it's no longer a decently polished 5e, it's an untested new gaming system that I frankly don't want to be a tester for because it's probably going to suck, either for me or for someone else at the table.

And if you're going to make an argument that it's a ROLEPLAYING game, I wholeheartedly agree. It's a roleplaying GAME.



Thanks for conveniently proving my point from above.Well, sorry, let me rephrase.

Using Extra Attack to use multi-attacks would be a hard "no". You could use the individual attacks involved as separate attacks, but not the multi-attack action. That's RAW as far as I know anyways. That'd still be strong as heck.