Resist Energy Spell. Too Strong?

[Agrias]

So my party went to fight some fire based monsters and the Cleric (level 8) used Resist Energy spell which says it lasts 10min/level and gives one specific energy resistance 20 on level 7 (fire in this case).
Isn't it way too powerful for a level 2 spell that last so long and give so much? It pretty much makes you immune to all fire attacks. Am I reading something wrong here or is it really that good.

[Fizban]

You gotta look at it from the other direction: how is a party supposed to survive monsters with big energy attacks without Resist Energy? Energy monsters are supposed to be scary if you aren't prepared, but easy if you are. You could limit them to just Protection from Energy, but that means you've effectively raised the cost and left no way to deal with areas that just deal continual damage.

[ericgrau]

So my party went to fight some fire based monsters
"Well there's your problem".

Yeah there's no problem at all and it's a weak spell. They knew they were fighting fire based monsters, teamed up with nobody else at all, they cast the appropriate spell, and made the fight much easier. That's what it's supposed to do. 95% of monsters don't attack with mostly elemental damage. Even fire elementals still do half damage (half of their damage is non-fire). When you get ambushed by elemental monsters you don't know to prepare it. And even if you did you won't ward the whole party in time, and pretty quickly they'll figure to focus on the unwarded PCs. Or if you prepare it regardless, most days it will be a wasted spell slot. If you don't know exactly when the elemental encounter will be, again it's really hard to set up. Whatever you do don't nerf it. Think more of the average before you consider such a thing, not the ideal circumstances. Same reason protecton from evil is a 1st level spell and dominate monster is a 9th level spell. Matching what you have to circumstances is hard.

[Fizban]

Mass Resist Energy on the other hand, that's got a good shot at being OP. For +1 level you cover the entire party with a single action, it's available to all clerics, who have no reason not to bring it thanks to spontaneous conversion. Takes the unprepared penalty and turns it into a surprise round-only penalty. Great if your game runs at a power level where that's the kind of response you need, but renders whole swathes of MM1 and similar monsters inert.

[Doctor Awkward]

Working as intended.

For the most part, magic generally is that good.

[Kayblis]

That's not really an issue. Say, if a group is planning to enter a volcano cave without Resist Energy, it's expected they're not coming out. Most single-element monsters have options to fight against resistant enemies, and no one's expected to take a fireball to the face every round for how many rounds it takes to kill your foes. Elementals are somewhat extreme, but even classic Dragons aren't supposed to be fought head-on without resistance. For the record, a Young Red Dragon is CR 7, has a breath weapon of 6d10 - average 33 every two or three rounds - and would be a "somewhat decent challenge" to a level 7 group, to be met about 4 times in a day. That's absurd damage without any mitigation.

Yeah, Mass Resist Energy is a good spell. It's not OP though. You take a single target spell that has no in-combat application and make it a spell slot for a big resistance against a single element. By level 7 it's 20 points, which can trivialize simple combats, but if you fight a more complex enemy(say, an Angel or a Devil) it's mostly a "block one attack" ticket before the foe changes energy types. It's still a defensive spell that doesn't change the battlefield and brings you no closer to beating your enemy in exchange for crossing one of five names in the elemental list, which is one of the many lists of damage types you can take.

Saying it's OP is like saying Water Breathing is totally OP because it prevents death by drowning in your pirate adventures.

[Rynjin]

So my party went to fight some fire based monsters and the Cleric (level 8) used Resist Energy spell which says it lasts 10min/level and gives one specific energy resistance 20 on level 7 (fire in this case).
Isn't it way too powerful for a level 2 spell that last so long and give so much? It pretty much makes you immune to all fire attacks. Am I reading something wrong here or is it really that good.

It is really that good...and you want it to be that way.

Generally, monsters with at-will elemental damage do big **** you amounts of damage to the unprepared (i.e. those without Resist Energy).

Look at a CR 7 enemy: a Young Black Dragon. They can do 6d6 Acid damage in a line, an average of 21. Your average level 7 character probably has between 41 and 60 HP. So you're looking at anywhere between 1/2 and 1/3 of the HP of MULTIPLE party members per strike.

And that's if there's just one; a CR 7 creature can reasonably come in packs of 2-3 if the fight is meant to be a boss-style encounter (APL +2 or 3, a "hard" or "epic" encounter). Without spells like Resist Energy you're looking at a potential first round TPK or near-TPK...even if some of your party makes their saves (the squishy Wizards and such are likely to die whether they do or not, at least).

You can ban spells like that, but you need to be careful to take into account the implications of doing so, like the above. Or simply how screwed melee characters can be by things like a Remorhaz or other "deals damage when hit in melee" creatures.

These creatures are in part balanced by the ASSUMPTION that Resist Energy is an option.

[Agrias]

I guess my surprise and thinking it's too good comes from a different place and my point of view is based on other games. That low level spell in D&D makes it so that gear with resistance is pretty much worthless. Why bother spending 42000g for one specific 20 resistance ring which also takes your valuable item slot when you can just use a simple Resist Energy spell and choose whichever Energy Resistance you need at that moment. I find it dull having just one spell make all the potential interesting resistance gear irrelevant. I dunno I think the spell should be 5/10/15 resistance instead of 10/20/30 that way some damage would still go through and items could still be an upgrade and meaningful. It doesn't feel right that one silly low level spell pretty much negates that whole Energy damage aspect of the game. Like Huge Fire Elemental isn't even able to deal 1 fire damage because of that one spell.

[Jack_Simth]

I guess my surprise and thinking it's too good comes from a different place and my point of view is based on other games. That low level spell in D&D makes it so that gear with resistance is pretty much worthless. Why bother spending 42000g for one specific 20 resistance ring which also takes your valuable item slot when you can just use a simple Resist Energy spell and choose whichever Energy Resistance you need at that moment. I find it dull having just one spell make all the potential interesting resistance gear irrelevant. I dunno I think the spell should be 5/10/15 resistance instead of 10/20/30 that way some damage would still go through and items could still be an upgrade and meaningful. It doesn't feel right that one silly low level spell pretty much negates that whole Energy damage aspect of the game. Like Huge Fire Elemental isn't even able to deal 1 fire damage because of that one spell.

At 9th level, Resist Energy lasts 90 minutes: 1.5 hours. For a "standard" 4-man party, you'll need 4 castings. To keep it up for three hours, you'll need 8. For 6 hours, you'll need 16.

Not counting bonus or specialization slots, a Wizard-9 has 4 2nd level spell slots (and 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th). The Wizard is going to be able to do very little else if the Wizard wants to keep it up for the entire party all day.

So really, your problem's twofold:
1) Fifteen minute adventuring day.
2) Hyper-focused dungeon, where the players knew about the focus.

You only need to solve one of them.

For the first:
If it took your party a few hours to go over everything (say, because it's a large dungeon, and there's a bunch of traps in various places that they needed to search for), then the spell would have expired partway through the dungeon. When it came time for the boss fight... no Energy Resistance.

For the second:
Don't be quite so focused: Mix in a few standard melee brutes that don't do elemental damage, a few critters that deal different types of elemental damage, and maybe a few opponents that attempt to dispel things (many demons and devils are both resistant to fire and have Dispel Magic X/day or at will).
Surprise the party: They knew it was a fire-themed dungeon. If they don't know that the next one is a cold-themed dungeon, you can mix in a bunch of cold monsters, but they won't know to prepare several copies of Resist Energy(Cold).

[Agrias]

Yeah Jack_Simth you are right and make some good points. I can design the encounter to take longer with multiple stages forcing players to manage their spells better. Cheers.

[Rynjin]

I guess my surprise and thinking it's too good comes from a different place and my point of view is based on other games. That low level spell in D&D makes it so that gear with resistance is pretty much worthless. Why bother spending 42000g for one specific 20 resistance ring which also takes your valuable item slot when you can just use a simple Resist Energy spell and choose whichever Energy Resistance you need at that moment. I find it dull having just one spell make all the potential interesting resistance gear irrelevant. I dunno I think the spell should be 5/10/15 resistance instead of 10/20/30 that way some damage would still go through and items could still be an upgrade and meaningful. It doesn't feel right that one silly low level spell pretty much negates that whole Energy damage aspect of the game. Like Huge Fire Elemental isn't even able to deal 1 fire damage because of that one spell.

Well, breaking down your issue into 2 points:

1.) I think that's much more of an issue with the ring COSTING TOO MUCH, not the spell being too powerful. 42k gp is, for example, almost as expensive as a +5 wepaon...and doesn't have NEARLY the impact. It's severely over-costed for what it gives you, in other words. That's an issue with the item not the spell.

2.) That's wholly an issue with basing a dungeon around one energy type. It's like playing Pokemon; you're going to bring your Water, Rock, and Ground types into the Fire gym and leave your Steel, Bug, and Grass types at home. Graveler isn't OP because he doesn't take much damage from Fire Blast. Resist Energy isn't OP because it negates the burn from your Fire Elemental. Preparation is "overpowered", because otherwise what would be the point of preparing for something?


Yeah Jack_Simth you are right and make some good points. I can design the encounter to take longer with multiple stages forcing players to manage their spells better. Cheers.

Perfect fix, really. Should've read a little further before replying. Just make sure to give your players a general idea of what they're getting into, subtly impressing on them the size of the place. If they hear something like "The vast, imposing fortress is built into the side of a volcano; no living man knows how deep its halls stretch into the fiery depths" and still blow all their spells on the first two encounters...that's on them.

[Eldariel]

I guess my surprise and thinking it's too good comes from a different place and my point of view is based on other games. That low level spell in D&D makes it so that gear with resistance is pretty much worthless. Why bother spending 42000g for one specific 20 resistance ring which also takes your valuable item slot when you can just use a simple Resist Energy spell and choose whichever Energy Resistance you need at that moment. I find it dull having just one spell make all the potential interesting resistance gear irrelevant. I dunno I think the spell should be 5/10/15 resistance instead of 10/20/30 that way some damage would still go through and items could still be an upgrade and meaningful. It doesn't feel right that one silly low level spell pretty much negates that whole Energy damage aspect of the game. Like Huge Fire Elemental isn't even able to deal 1 fire damage because of that one spell.

That's the thing, spells pretty much eclipse equipment across the board. One of the reason non-casters have such a ****ty time compared to casters: casters can eventually replicate all-day spells for free with a couple of low level slots. Resist Energy can replicate all 5 rings of Resist Energy (admittedly you do want Extend Spell and still need a couple of castings to get going; of course, if the whole party is casters, everyone only needs to take care of themselves), Magic Vestment can make armor and shield +5, Greater Magic Weapon/Fang can make weapons/natural weapons +5, Magic Circle against X grants +2 Deflection, Barkskin grants +5 Natural Armor, etc. At least stat enhancers and Shield of Faith are short enough duration that high level casters have a hard time making them last all day in 3.5/PF (3.0 is a different story). All this amounts to the fact that non-casters have to either have an appropriate friendly caster available to give them the buff they need or they need to shell out tens or hundreds of thousands to replicate a spell slot (Pearl of Power III is much cheaper than getting a +5 weapon, let alone the fact that Greater Magic Weapon can make a +10-level +1 Ability weapon essentially +14). Casters on the other hand just cast the appropriate spells. But that's the same with items too: ultimately casters make them as well.


At 9th level, Resist Energy lasts 90 minutes: 1.5 hours. For a "standard" 4-man party, you'll need 4 castings. To keep it up for three hours, you'll need 8. For 6 hours, you'll need 16.

Not counting bonus or specialization slots, a Wizard-9 has 4 2nd level spell slots (and 3 3rd, 2 4th, and 1 5th). The Wizard is going to be able to do very little else if the Wizard wants to keep it up for the entire party all day.

So really, your problem's twofold:
1) Fifteen minute adventuring day.
2) Hyper-focused dungeon, where the players knew about the focus.

You only need to solve one of them.

For the first:
If it took your party a few hours to go over everything (say, because it's a large dungeon, and there's a bunch of traps in various places that they needed to search for), then the spell would have expired partway through the dungeon. When it came time for the boss fight... no Energy Resistance.

For the second:
Don't be quite so focused: Mix in a few standard melee brutes that don't do elemental damage, a few critters that deal different types of elemental damage, and maybe a few opponents that attempt to dispel things (many demons and devils are both resistant to fire and have Dispel Magic X/day or at will).
Surprise the party: They knew it was a fire-themed dungeon. If they don't know that the next one is a cold-themed dungeon, you can mix in a bunch of cold monsters, but they won't know to prepare several copies of Resist Energy(Cold).

Don't forget Searing Spell [Sandstorm]/Piercing Cold [Frostburn] as options for specialised casters to bypass these. A fire mage monster/NPC works just fine in a fire-themed dungeon and can have fire so hot it literally ignores resistance and even damages immunes.

[Yogibear41]

Almost every ability in game can be countered by 1 spell. The trick is you have to know what you are fighting ahead of time. Another example would be death ward completely negating a bunch of different types of undead's abilities.

[Mordaedil]

I guess my surprise and thinking it's too good comes from a different place and my point of view is based on other games. That low level spell in D&D makes it so that gear with resistance is pretty much worthless. Why bother spending 42000g for one specific 20 resistance ring which also takes your valuable item slot when you can just use a simple Resist Energy spell and choose whichever Energy Resistance you need at that moment. I find it dull having just one spell make all the potential interesting resistance gear irrelevant. I dunno I think the spell should be 5/10/15 resistance instead of 10/20/30 that way some damage would still go through and items could still be an upgrade and meaningful. It doesn't feel right that one silly low level spell pretty much negates that whole Energy damage aspect of the game. Like Huge Fire Elemental isn't even able to deal 1 fire damage because of that one spell.

Just a nitpick, but a ring of 20 resistance costs 28,000, not 42,000. Also, it is the kind of thing you are more likely to hand out as treasure, rather than expect them to acquire on their own.

They'll love that ring. You want your players to adore it? Throw enemies that it protects against at them. The other players will want it and seek it out. You can recreate the one ring in your group just by doing this.

[Mystral]

So my party went to fight some fire based monsters and the Cleric (level 8) used Resist Energy spell which says it lasts 10min/level and gives one specific energy resistance 20 on level 7 (fire in this case).
Isn't it way too powerful for a level 2 spell that last so long and give so much? It pretty much makes you immune to all fire attacks. Am I reading something wrong here or is it really that good.

If thats the worst thing your cleric does at level 8, count your lucky stars.

[Deophaun]

They'll love that ring. You want your players to adore it? Throw enemies that it protects against at them. The other players will want it and seek it out. You can recreate the one ring in your group just by doing this.
No, because they can still sell the ring and buy superior protection. There's a massive opportunity cost in holding on to it because it really is that overpriced. Oh, and now you've limited your monster selection just to make the ring slightly less of a ripoff.

For energy resistance to be valuable on equipment, it must be able to stack. Since none of it does, it's all vendor trash.