Buffing Improved Trip?

[mesc]

So I noticed the strange wording of the feat Improved Trip. It states "if you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt."

From what I understand of this, since trip attempts are considered unarmed melee attacks, they are affected by abilities or spells like kiai smite which buff your next attack. However improved trip treats your next attack (the trip attempt) as if it never happened, making your effective next attack, the extra attack granted by the feat, have the same bonuses and effects.

Now with ward cestus (A&E p.10), it says a strike with a ward cestus is considered an unarmed attack. This means that effects which buff weapons, now buffs your trip attempts and the next attack right?

There is also the metamagic feat, smiting spell (PHB 2 p. 92), which states "You can alter a spell with a range of touch to transfer its energy from your hand to a weapon that you hold. The next time you strike an opponent with that weapon, the spell discharges. The target takes the normal damage and effects of a successful attack in addition to the spell’s effect."
So you can smiting spell on a ward cestus as it is a weapon, and make a trip attempt as ward cestus is also an unarmed melee attack. Would this mean that the spell is discharged on both the trip attempt and attack? Or would it only be discharged on the trip attempt?

What are other great spells or abilities which can be used for this combo?

[Mars Ultor]

It doesn't say the first attack--the trip attempt--didn't happen, it says that a successful trip lets you get a melee attack as if you hadn't used that attack to trip. The trip attempt itself is an attack so any spell or power which can only be used once is used for the initial trip attempt.

If you're successful you get another attack, this one to cause damage. But the attempt to trip someone is an attack and that's when stuff gets applied. For example, something basic: You can Power Attack a trip attempt. You can Power Attack a melee attack, and a trip attack is considered a melee attack. The fact that a trip attempt itself does no damage is irrelevant. If you do trip, the damage bonus from Power Attack comes into effect, but you took the attack penalty both times.

Knockdown is a good feat to improve upon Improved Trip. If you do ten or more points of melee damage, you get a free trip attack against that opponent. Normally when you trip you can potentially hit someone, trip them, then miss your attack and do no damage. With Knockdown you roll to hit, then damage. If your damage is ten or more, you roll a Strength check. Whether you trip or not, you still do damage. Every hit does damage and is a potential trip.

Ray of Enfeeblement is also helpful for a tripper. Anything which lowers someone's Strength makes them easier to trip. Spells which increase your size or Strength are also a benefit.

You can also ask your DM about situational bonuses. If you use a ranged weapon to trip and your opponent is standing in an area affected by the Grease spell, you might have an advantage or bonus.

[Andezzar]

It doesn't say the first attack--the trip attempt--didn't happen, it says that a successful trip lets you get a melee attack as if you hadn't used that attack to trip. The trip attempt itself is an attack so any spell or power which can only be used once is used for the initial trip attempt.I disagree. As if you hadn't used that attack to trip means exactly that. You do the next attack as if you hadn't used trip. This means for the spell or power that it does not count as used and so applies to the extra attack.


If you're successful you get another attack, this one to cause damage. But the attempt to trip someone is an attack and that's when stuff gets applied. For example, something basic: You can Power Attack a trip attempt. You can Power Attack a melee attack, and a trip attack is considered a melee attack. The fact that a trip attempt itself does no damage is irrelevant. If you do trip, the damage bonus from Power Attack comes into effect, but you took the attack penalty both times.Wrong again, you cannot add the damage bonus from power attack to an attack that does not do damage. N/A + 5 is still N/A. Whether the extra attack is the first or nth attack in the round is irrelevant as well, because power attack must be selected at the beginning of your turn and damage bonus and attack penalty apply apply until the beginning of your next turn.

[mesc]

It doesn't say the first attack--the trip attempt--didn't happen, it says that a successful trip lets you get a melee attack as if you hadn't used that attack to trip. The trip attempt itself is an attack so any spell or power which can only be used once is used for the initial trip attempt.

Yes first attack (the trip attempt) did actually happen. But then again that attack is treated as if it hadn't been used, and so shouldn't any spell or effect which triggers on the next attack, also have happened like the normal trip attack, but then is treated as if it hadn't been used?

It is questionable however if this can work with smiting spell since smiting spell words it as discharging the spell. So while altough improved trip lets it so that smiting spell occurs on both the trip and attack, it also says the spell is discharged as soon as it hits. Would this mean that there would be no more spell in hold for the attack? Or does improved trip completely also.treats it as if the spell was not discharged?

[mesc]

Wrong again, you cannot add the damage bonus from power attack to an attack that does not do damage. N/A + 5 is still N/A. Whether the extra attack is the first or nth attack in the round is irrelevant as well, because power attack must be selected at the beginning of your turn and damage bonus and attack penalty apply apply until the beginning of your next turn.


While power attack may not work since it specifically mentions it adds a bonus to melee damage rolls (while trip has no damage rolls), there are effects such as sacred vengeance (CW p. 108) which is worded as "As a free action, spend one of your turn undead attempts to add 2d6 points of damage to all your successful melee attacks against undead until the end of the current round."

Since it does not mention it adds damage to damage rolls and just successful attacks, would trip also get the bonus damage, despite the rulings of trips not doing any damage at all?

Also another questionable thing is if improved trip grants an extra attack from, as knock back gives you a free trip attempt (meaning no attack was used), yet the wording of improved trip is as an extra attack as if you hadn't used the attack. So how does knockback really interact with improved trip?

[Andezzar]

While power attack may not work since it specifically mentions it adds a bonus to melee damage rolls (while trip has no damage rolls), there are effects such as sacred vengeance (CW p. 108) which is worded as "As a free action, spend one of your turn undead attempts to add 2d6 points of damage to all your successful melee attacks against undead until the end of the current round."

Since it does not mention it adds damage to damage rolls and just successful attacks, would trip also get the bonus damage, despite the rulings of trips not doing any damage at all?You cannot add damage to an attack that does not do damage at all just like Bear's Endurance does not work on undead (because they have CON -).


Also another questionable thing is if improved trip grants an extra attack from, as knock back gives you a free trip attempt (meaning no attack was used), yet the wording of improved trip is as an extra attack as if you hadn't used the attack. So how does knockback really interact with improved trip?An attack can happen without being an attack action (or being part of a Full Attack action). AoOs are the most well known example. So the free trip attempt grants a free extra attack.

[mesc]

You cannot add damage to an attack that does not do damage at all just like Bear's Endurance does not work on undead (because they have CON -).

An attack can happen without being an attack action (or being part of a Full Attack action). AoOs are the most well known example. So the free trip attempt grants a free extra attack.

I found a solution for this, setting sun throw maneuvers. They are worded as "As part of this maneuver, you must succeed on a melee touch attack against your foe. Resolve the throw as a trip attempt" Therefore they should also be affected by improved trip, granting the extra attack, and since they do damage, they can now benefit from damage boosting effects, which should also buff both the trip attempt and extra attack.

[Andezzar]

I found a solution for this, setting sun throw maneuvers. They are worded as "As part of this maneuver, you must succeed on a melee touch attack against your foe. Resolve the throw as a trip attempt" Therefore they should also be affected by improved trip, granting the extra attack, and since they do damage, they can now benefit from damage boosting effects, which should also buff both the trip attempt and extra attack.Still no, the trip attempt does not get extra damage the extra attack does.

[mesc]

Still no, the trip attempt does not get extra damage the extra attack does.

well the buffs wont give damage to the trip itself, but they should improve damage dealt by the manuevers that trip, like soaring throw which deals 8d6 damage.

[Andezzar]

If the maneuver says it deals damage, yes, but mighty throw does not deal damage so there is no extra damage on the maneuver either.

[mesc]

If the maneuver says it deals damage, yes, but mighty throw does not deal damage so there is no extra damage on the maneuver either.

Mighty throw is the first level maneuver, which yes does not do damage. At higher levels though, you gain access to devastating throw, comet throw, soaring throw, ballista throw and finally tornado throw. All of those maneuvers let you throw the enemy by a certain range if you succeed on your trip attempt. They fall prone in the destination space and take Xd6 damage.

With that said, assuming smiting spell discharges the spell on both the trip and attack, a swordsage- caster gish can be very lethal.

[Andezzar]

Tripping generally is a good use for the muggles.

[Darrin]

This peculiar wording has been in the rules since 3.0, and it has created a lot of confusion because the designers were trying to avoid saying "you get a free melee attack" for some stupid reason. (Well, OK, not a stupid reason, but the wording is still problematic.) They were trying to avoid "bag of rats" combos and recursive loops.

Save yourself some headaches and just treat it as an extra melee attack. If you want to trigger a combo with it... well... MCHNT (Melee Can't Have Nice Things).

[Mars Ultor]

I disagree. As if you hadn't used that attack to trip means exactly that. You do the next attack as if you hadn't used trip. This means for the spell or power that it does not count as used and so applies to the extra attack.

Wrong again, you cannot add the damage bonus from power attack to an attack that does not do damage. N/A + 5 is still N/A. Whether the extra attack is the first or nth attack in the round is irrelevant as well, because power attack must be selected at the beginning of your turn and damage bonus and attack penalty apply apply until the beginning of your next turn.


Tripping is an attack, the fact that you successfully tripped someone doesn't negate that attack, it just lets the character get a second attack in that particular situation. If you don't successfully trip, you don't get that follow-up attack. The second attack is a bonus attack, it's in addition to the trip attack. Successfully tripping someone gives an immediate benefit, it doesn't negate the initial attack.


I'm not "wrong again" since I wasn't wrong the first time, and in this case you misunderstood my example, although I do admit it could have been worded better. I didn't say Power Attacking gives you a bonus to your tripping, I wrote that "if you do trip," that is, if you get your bonus attack from a successful trip, the additional Power Attack damage is applied to that bonus attack. It can't be applied to the first attack since a trip does no damage.

The wording of Power Attack states that you must select whether or not to use the feat before the first attack you take that round. You get the penalty to all attack rolls and the benefit to all damage rolls until just before your next turn. Tripping is an attack so you can "activate" Power Attack before you trip. You'll get the penalty to your attack roll, but since there is no damage roll in tripping, the benefit to you damage roll doesn't happen.

[Mars Ultor]

Yes first attack (the trip attempt) did actually happen. But then again that attack is treated as if it hadn't been used, and so shouldn't any spell or effect which triggers on the next attack, also have happened like the normal trip attack, but then is treated as if it hadn't been used?

It is questionable however if this can work with smiting spell since smiting spell words it as discharging the spell. So while altough improved trip lets it so that smiting spell occurs on both the trip and attack, it also says the spell is discharged as soon as it hits. Would this mean that there would be no more spell in hold for the attack? Or does improved trip completely also.treats it as if the spell was not discharged?


Let's forget about the bonus attack if you trip, let's only discuss failure. You're using the spell and you try to trip someone, but that trip attempt is unsuccessful. Does the fact that you failed negate that trying to trip is an attack? Trying to trip someone is an attack whether or not you succeed. If you're successful you're getting a bonus attack, it doesn't mean the first attack, in which you tripped, never happened.

[Mars Ultor]

While power attack may not work since it specifically mentions it adds a bonus to melee damage rolls (while trip has no damage rolls), there are effects such as sacred vengeance (CW p. 108) which is worded as "As a free action, spend one of your turn undead attempts to add 2d6 points of damage to all your successful melee attacks against undead until the end of the current round."

Since it does not mention it adds damage to damage rolls and just successful attacks, would trip also get the bonus damage, despite the rulings of trips not doing any damage at all?

Also another questionable thing is if improved trip grants an extra attack from, as knock back gives you a free trip attempt (meaning no attack was used), yet the wording of improved trip is as an extra attack as if you hadn't used the attack. So how does knockback really interact with improved trip?


Power Attack states that you must choose to use the feat before making any attacks that round and it stays in effect until your next turn. It also says that you apply the to hit penalty to all your attack rolls and the damage benefit to all your damage rolls. Tripping involves an attack roll, so the penalty does apply, tripping does not involve a damage roll, so the benefit does not apply. The reason to use Power Attack while tripping is that if you are successful and you do get the bonus attack, the victim is prone and easier to hit. That offsets the penalty to your attack roll. Also, since tripping is an easier touch attack to begin with, the Power Attack penalty shouldn't really affect whether you initially hit or not.


As a DM I'd rule that the damage from Sacred Vengeance applies if you do damage. If your trip attempt is successful and you get the bonus attack, that's when the 2d6 is applicable. It's not applicable toward an attack which does no damage. While Sacred Vengeance does say you add that damage to all successful melee attacks against undead, I'd argue that adding damage implies that there is damage to begin with. I think what's written and what's intended don't actually match. Sacred Vengeance by itself does no damage and it's not an attack, it's an add-on to a successful attack which causes damage.


The generally accepted reading of Knockback is that you take your melee attack, do the damage, and then get your free trip attempt. If your trip attempt is successful you do not get an additional attack, this feat works with Improved Trip, but it isn't the same as Improved Trip. The way the feats compliment each other is that Improved Trip gives you a +4 bonus to your Strength check rolls whens tripping and also doesn't cause you to provoke Attacks of Opportunity. The bonus trip attempt you get after Knockback gives you those advantage from Improved Trip. It's almost the reverse of Improved Trip, instead of making a trip attempt and getting a bonus attack, you make an attack and get a bonus trip attempt. You've already used your attack, the trip is extra, but knowing how to trip in general helps whenever you try to trip someone.

[Andezzar]

Tripping is an attack, the fact that you successfully tripped someone doesn't negate that attack, it just lets the character get a second attack in that particular situation. If you don't successfully trip, you don't get that follow-up attack. The second attack is a bonus attack, it's in addition to the trip attack. Successfully tripping someone gives an immediate benefit, it doesn't negate the initial attack.If trip only granted a regular attack as you state, why is the qualifier "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt" there, if it does nothing? If all it does is grant an extra attack, why not say that?

You can't just ignore that qualifier.
A simple example:
A character with improved trip casts true strike
a) He then attacks an opponent. Obviously he gains +20 to this attack. It is his next attack roll and it happens before the end of the next round.

b) He makes a trip attempt (with +20 to the touch attack) against an opponent and succeeds. Now you claim that the extra attack does not gain the +20. However this is in clear violation of "as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt". The qualifier means that for all intents and purposes the trip attempt did not happen and this is the next attack.


I'm not "wrong again" since I wasn't wrong the first time, and in this case you misunderstood my example, although I do admit it could have been worded better. I didn't say Power Attacking gives you a bonus to your tripping, I wrote that "if you do trip," that is, if you get your bonus attack from a successful trip, the additional Power Attack damage is applied to that bonus attack. It can't be applied to the first attack since a trip does no damage.

The wording of Power Attack states that you must select whether or not to use the feat before the first attack you take that round. You get the penalty to all attack rolls and the benefit to all damage rolls until just before your next turn. Tripping is an attack so you can "activate" Power Attack before you trip. You'll get the penalty to your attack roll, but since there is no damage roll in tripping, the benefit to you damage roll doesn't happen.Yup, I misunderstood you there. We agree on that point. You take the penalty to the attack roll on the trip attempt and the extra attack and gain the damage bonus on the extra attack.

[mesc]

Let's forget about the bonus attack if you trip, let's only discuss failure. You're using the spell and you try to trip someone, but that trip attempt is unsuccessful. Does the fact that you failed negate that trying to trip is an attack? Trying to trip someone is an attack whether or not you succeed. If you're successful you're getting a bonus attack, it doesn't mean the first attack, in which you tripped, never happened.

That would only be for failures though since improved trip would not activate. Yes, tripping in itself alone is an attack whether you succeed or not, but if you do succeed, improved trip activates, and it provides new rules which should overrule the normal rules. The wording of the feat is treated as it hadn't been used, not that it did not happen, meaning the attack and other abilities did happen, but was never used. So for purposes of effects that say your next attack, your true next attack (if the trip was succesful) was never used, despite it happening, and the effective next attack being the extra attack. Essentially my arguement is that, you should have not used up your irretative attack or other abilities to make that attack (trip attempt) if it was successful, treating it as if the trip attempt was a free gift (including effects), while your extra attack, being the one that actually uses up the irretative attack and effects.

[Melcar]

Here's some stuff for tripping:

Strength: +X
Jotunbrud/Powerful Build: (PGtF) +4
Improved Trip: (PHB) +4
Wolf Beserker (UNA) +4
Initiate of Kord (Class feature) (CC) +4
Specific Weapon: (Living Chain): (MiC) +2
Weapon Enchant: (Sweeping): (MiC) +2
Weapon Enchant: (Grasping): (A&EG) +2
Exotic Weapon Master: (Class feature) (CW) +2
Armbands of Might: (MiC) +2
Tenticle Hide (Armor) (UND) +2
Musclebound (Trait) UA +1
Pale Green Prism (Ioun stone) DMG +1
Specialist Fighter (class feature) DM #310 +2
Marshal (cha bonus) (class feature) CC +Y
Third Eye Surge MiC (Insight) (+2/+3/+4 – 3/day)
Torc of the Titans MiC (Morale) (+5 – 3/day)
Brute Gauntlets MiC (Morale) (+2/+3/+4 – 3/day)
Belt of the Champion MiC (Competence) +5
Helm of Battle MiC +2

Item: +5 dwarven crafted, adamantine, razor sharp, sweeping, grasping, keen, bladed, Living Chain

[Charles120]

hmmm if your discussion is true, wont surge of fortune be a real fortune?