Prestige class requirements

[Talhvain]

So ran into an issue where someone is planning on changing their alignment halfway through a prestige class. Can you continue to level through a class you no longer qualify for?

[Kelb_Panthera]

So ran into an issue where someone is planning on changing their alignment halfway through a prestige class. Can you continue to level through a class you no longer qualify for?

No, you can't. Also, this really belongs in the simple RAW thread.

[Coventry]

So ran into an issue where someone is planning on changing their alignment halfway through a prestige class. Can you continue to level through a class you no longer qualify for?

That depends entirely on what the class specifies when a character no longer meets the pre-requisite alignment. For example, the 3.5 D&D FAQ says this:



If my character becomes an assassin, then later changes his alignment from evil to neutral, can he still use the skills he learned as an assassin?

A character who no longer meets the requirements of his prestige class not only can’t advance any further in that class, but he also “loses the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class,” (CW 16). You retain Hit Dice (and the hit points derived from those Hit Dice), base attack bonus, and base save bonuses granted by the prestige class.

The rules don’t specifically list skill points (and class skills) as falling into either category; the Sage recommends that the character retain these functions even if he no longer meets the class requirements. So your repentant assassin would lose his sneak attack, death attack, poison use, save bonus against poison, uncanny dodge, improved uncanny dodge, and hide in plain sight class features, as well as his assassin spell casting and any weapon and armor proficiencies gained from the class. He’d keep the skill ranks he bought with his assassin levels, as well as the hit points, base attack, and base save bonuses gained from the class levels. He also couldn’t gain any more assassin levels until his alignment returned to evil (at which point he’d also regain the various features he lost when his alignment changed to non-evil).


In all of the 3.X versions, the barbarian class loses the ability to rage, while the monk loses nothing other than the ability to gain new levels. Those two set the tone for how I think the others should work.

[Talhvain]

Also, this really belongs in the simple RAW thread.

How is this not a rules question and answer?

[Kelb_Panthera]

How is this not a rules question and answer?

There's a stickied thread at the top of the page in this subforum for very simple questions like the one you asked. I was trying to say that this question should've been posted there rather than create a new thread.

[Khedrac]

Actually the one thing this isn't is a "simple" question.
The question can be re-worded to the more general "what happens if a character no longer qualifies for a prestige class after they start taking levels in it?" - and the rules are not consistent for these circumstances.

Complete Warrior (and one other book iirc) have a statement that characters lose all abilities from prestige classes they no longer qualify for.
This statement is usually (at best) only taken to apply to the books it is found in - and the best example of why is from the DMG (which is the primary source for prestige classes and lacks the statement). The Dragon Disciple (along with most other classes that change the character's type) simply does not work with such a rule in play - The capstone ability changes the character's type to one that would bar them from entering the class. If the "loss of abilities" rule is applied as written then a 10th level dragon disciple instantly loses all benefits from the class (which actually means they qualify for it again and regain them only to lose them again). To hold that this statement does not apply to capstone abilities is a Houserule (albeit a good one).

OK, this is not quite the same as ceasing to qualify half-way through a prestige class, but it is the limit of the rules on the subject.

As a DM I would probably bar a character from continuing in an alignment-restricted class once they no longer meet the alignment restriction, but that would be my ruling as a DM, your ruling may vary.
The other thing I would look askance at is "planning to change alignment" - especially if the change will happen during play. I do believe in giving alignment warnings and, if necessary, forcibly changing a character's alignment - but I also believe that it is a very slow process.
Now, if the playing is planning to have their character have a "revalation" and change behaviour overnight then they probably can pull off an alignment change within a single level, but they had better play both alignments well for this to happen. If they are not careful, either the pre- or post-revalation alignment will not be properly clear-cut and may cause them issues (like alignment changing earlier or later than expected, and not necessarily to the one they expect).

In short, this is the DMs call (which I believe to the the OP); but with alignment there are good grounds to bar continued progression in the class (the class masters refuse to teach the character for one).

[Andezzar]

No, you can't. Also, this really belongs in the simple RAW thread.Yes, you can as long as you are not talking about a PrC from CW or CArc.

There is no rule that you have to meet prerequisites at any point other than when taking the first level of the PrC. Schrödinger's Dragon Disciple has been debunked long ago.

To quote the DMG:
To qualify to become an arcane archer, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Notice the verb to become, not to remain, or to advance as. So only before having any level in that PrC are the prerequisites checked. Every other PrC has the same wording BTW, strangely even those in the CW and CArc.

[Ashtagon]

Do not ask the rules for answers, for they will say both yes and no.

(Seriously, this is a DM call)

[Andezzar]

While a DM can say pretty much anything, the rules are clear in this case.

[Ashtagon]

While a DM can say pretty much anything, the rules are clear in this case.

They really aren't. DMG 3.5 makes it clear that you must meet prerequisites to take the 1st level of a prestige class. It doesn't specify either way if you must continue to meet prerequisites in order to take later levels, or if you must continue to meet prerequisites in order to keep the benefits of those prestige class levels. However, at least one DMG prc (dragon disciple) has a class feature that causes the character to no longer meet the prerequisites for the class. Several prcs in later books also cause the PC to stop meeting the prerequisites as a result of the prc's class features.

Starting in Complete Divine (e.g., divine crusader), some prestige classes have section about ex-members of the class. On the specific/general rule theory, those clauses only apply to the specific prestige class they are under. They are generally written to cover only alignment issues. These sections are not present in every prc that has an alignment-based prerequisite. At least for divine crusader, alignment change is teh only criteria for "falling", and results in loss of all class abilities and inability to take further levels in the prestige class.

Complete Warrior says that "If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, they lose the benefit of any class features or other special abilities granted by the class. The character retains Hit Dice gained from advancing in the class as well as any improvements to base attack bonus and base save bonuses that the class provided." That doesn't technically stop a character from taking further levels, but it does stop them from benefiting from any class features from that class. A huge debate continues to simmer over whether that paragraph applies to all prestige classes, or just those prestige classes that are in Complete Warrior, and whether it would apply to a PC who pointedly chooses not to use any CW material even if the DM says CW is available.

Of possible interest is that the CW section also strongly implies that a PC can meet the prc prerequisites by means of a magic item. Given that many magic items are effectively permanent duration spells, this opens up shenanigans such as "I get the NPC wizard to cast permanent enlarge person on me. Now that I am Large, I qualify!"

Somewhere a few years back, there was a RACSI thread trying to make sense of it all. I can't find it now though.

[Andezzar]

You mentioned specific exceptions where the prerequisites are checked after taking the first levels in the PrC. The alignment restrictions in CD and other books do not mention prerequisites, they just say if the alignment changes or the character commits certain acts, something happens to his class features and/or his advancement possibilities. That a certain alignment (group) is also in the prerequisites is purely incidental.

There is no general rule that prerequisites are checked after the first level of a PrC.

Also note that the different rules in CW and CArc are completely dysfunctional. They have no method of getting back what was removed. Allowing the features to return upon again qualifying would be a houserule just as removing anything from other PrCs if the prerequisites are no longer met.

As written these rules break any caster PrC as soon as it is no longer the casters turn. Outside of the character's turn, he cannot cast any spells. So he no longer fulfils the prerequisites. Even if such a caster had at least two immediate action spells, he would still stop fulfilling the prerequisites as soon as he cannot take an immediate action.

[Ashtagon]

You mentioned specific exceptions where the prerequisites are checked after taking the first levels in the PrC. The alignment restrictions in CD and other books do not mention prerequisites, they just say if the alignment changes or the character commits certain acts, something happens to his class features and/or his advancement possibilities. That a certain alignment (group) is also in the prerequisites is purely incidental.


I don't think you can truly call it mere coincidence. The author must have had at least some level of rudimentary awareness of what the class prerequisites were, considering they would (presumably) have written that themselves.

It may be worth noting that the "ex-member" sections do not specifically call out all aspects of the prerequisites. It is entirely possible for a divine crusader to not fall foul of that paragraph if, for some reason, they lose their Weapon Focus feat.




There is no general rule that prerequisites are checked after the first level of a PrC.


There is. It is in CW.



Also note that the different rules in CW and CArc are completely dysfunctional. They have no method of getting back what was removed. Allowing the features to return upon again qualifying would be a houserule just as removing anything from other PrCs if the prerequisites are no longer met.


I didn't check CAr, but the "if" statement in CW covers that. If they regain the relevant item, the if statement no longer applies.

But yes, you're right, in as much as it is terrible proof-reading. So we've clearly established the rules are self-contradictory :smalltongue:



As written these rules break any caster PrC as soon as it is no longer the casters turn. Outside of the character's turn, he cannot cast any spells. So he no longer fulfils the prerequisites. Even if such a caster had at least two immediate action spells, he would still stop fulfilling the prerequisites as soon as he cannot take an immediate action.

And this is why we need a RACSD answer.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?240218-quot-Common-Sense-quot-approach-to-rules-(RACSD)

11: "A power or ability granted by a Prestige Class will never cause a character to become ineligible for that Prestige Class (such as the Dragon Disciple's capstone ability making the character ineligible to be a Dragon Disciple) or take away the class' own features (such as the Ur-Priest's divine spellcasting making the Ur-Priest unable to continue as an Ur-Priest)."

28: "If you have the ability to meet a prerequisite or requirement through temporary means, you may take a feat or class or use an ability with such a requirement. When you do not meet the requirements, you may not use the ability and are not treated as possessing the feat or class abilities of the class."

Those two would cover the typical situations, although #28 doesn't have a consensus.

[Andezzar]

There is. It is in CW.The primary source rule however removes that rule from any PrC not in that book. The primary source for PrCs in general is the DMG and for specific Prcs the various sourcebooks. An ability (taking another level) granted by the primary source cannot be overwritten by a secondary source.


I didn't check CAr, but the "if" statement in CW covers that. If they regain the relevant item, the if statement no longer applies.Not quite. as soon as the if condition is fulfilled stuff is removed. There is no language saying that anything is regained if and when the if condition is no longer fulfilled.

[Ashtagon]

Herein you see exactly why I said it's basically a DM call and the rulebooks don't give a clear answer :smallbiggrin:

(n.b., I specifically will NOT be replying to responses that essentially boil down to "but it is clear!").

[ericgrau]

There isn't a clear rules answer as stated.

I'd go by pure fluff. IMO if it is something like assassin he can't advance further in level but retains all his previous abilities.

Planning to change his alignment in the first place is dubious, but if he does it magically and doesn't feel strongly about his alignment I'd allow it. I'd also be more lenient on shifts towards good and law, since evil and chaotic people are less likely to feel strongly about their alignment. It's easier to plan the opposite without changing your alignment before intended. Easiest of all to start at neutral. The self brainwashed characters would have more confused introspective questions after the change, if anything, yet be unwilling to change back for reasons of rightness. Without magic, if you plan to be another alignment are you really your original alignment. And if the player says he plans on changing his mind, it's a bit meta among other questions like "why would he reasonably?"