Why witch bolt is useful

[Particle_Man]

Got your attention, didn’t I? :smallsmile:

I was looking over spells for a draconic lightning sorcerer (variant human with elemental adept). Shocking grasp, chromatic orb and witch bolt seem to be the lightning damage choices at lvl one, at least in the core book.

But I can’t cast chromatic orb at chargen because it has a costly component. So that leaves witch bolt.

At higher levels I would trade this out, but at level one, when I can only cast two spells per day, having a spell that can maintain damage over multiple rounds is not a bad option.

Anyhow, that is my defence. I would likely trade it out when I get the component for chromatic orb and level up.

[Lille]

Sadly, though, Dragon Sorcerers don't actually have much incentive to focus on their damage type until higher levels. I mean sure, fluff-wise it makes sense, but until 6th level you're no better with lightning spells than you are with ice spells.

[CTurbo]

I like Witchbolt for interrogating and torturing restrained enemies Palpatine style. That's about the only time I see it being useful.

[Sahe]

Things you can do:
- ask your GM if you can reflavor certain spells to be a different damage type. For Example Fire Bolt -> Lightning Bolt.
- Take Spell Sniper instead of Elemental Adept (Lightning Resistance isn't that common anyway). It increases Witch Bolt's range to 60 feet making it more useful.
- Ask your DM to change Witch Bolt in one or more of the following ways: Upcasting increases followup damage as well, lose concentration requirements, change follow-up damage to a bonus action.

[JellyPooga]

There are some other saving graces for Witch Bolt;

- Moving outside of 30ft of the caster ends the spell, but in many dungeons, doing so will remove that creature as a threat. Think of it as a "minor fear" spell in that regard. Giving the enemy the option of taking (decent for low level) damage or wasting a turn, is a form of battlefield control.

- If the damage reiterates multiple times, it does do better damage than a cantrip (at low levels).

- Lightning damage is less resisted and it's more common to see vulnerability (IIRC), albeit you tend only to see those at higher levels.

I'm not saying it's a good spell, but it has some utility.

[Vekon]

Sadly, though, Dragon Sorcerers don't actually have much incentive to focus on their damage type until higher levels. I mean sure, fluff-wise it makes sense, but until 6th level you're no better with lightning spells than you are with ice spells.

Pretty much this. And at that point, you'll (probably) have collected enough gold to play for the material component, and then several backups of that component.
It's thematic to take the lightning spell, sure. But you're still a Sorcerer with the power to manipulate all sorts of elemental power and effects, not just the one you have an affinity with.

[Doug Lampert]

There are some other saving graces for Witch Bolt;

- Moving outside of 30ft of the caster ends the spell, but in many dungeons, doing so will remove that creature as a threat. Think of it as a "minor fear" spell in that regard. Giving the enemy the option of taking (decent for low level) damage or wasting a turn, is a form of battlefield control.

- If the damage reiterates multiple times, it does do better damage than a cantrip (at low levels).

- Lightning damage is less resisted and it's more common to see vulnerability (IIRC), albeit you tend only to see those at higher levels.

I'm not saying it's a good spell, but it has some utility.
Agreed, It's biggest problem is that the continuing damage doesn't scale, which isn't relevant if you're planning to swap it out prior to level 5.

[sophontteks]

As a sorcerer it'd be better to pick a utility spell. Chromatic orb does marginally more damage then a cantrip. Not worth a spell slot. Not when its up against gems like shield, and absorb elements.

Witch bolt remains terrible ofc.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Other wacky fun things to do with Witch Bolt, if you feel like it...

The Spell Sniper Feat or the Distant Spell metamagic will increase Witch Bolt's range to 60 feet, making it much harder for the victim to get out of range.

Combo Witch Bolt with another spell that reduces movement. Obviously this requires a non-concentration spell for the combo; Plant Growth is probably the best with movement at one-quarter normal, but few classes have both of these on their spell list. Bards (magical secrets) and Warlocks (Fey Pact) can pull this one off.

If you have Witch Bolt and a two-level dip in Tempest Cleric, your Channel Divinity allows you to Maximize one casting of Witch Bolt per Short Rest. (Whether it's just the initial damage or all the subsequent damage rolls as well, I have no idea.) Twelve sided dice are the very best dice to maximize.

[Misterwhisper]

The nail in the coffin for witch bolt it that it requires an action to maintain, it should have been a bonus action.

I love the concept but the idea that it is a whole action to keep it going, only a 30 ft range, scales horribly, and only does an average of 1 point more than a basic cantrip makes it not worth taking other than thematically.

[KorvinStarmast]

I like Witchbolt for interrogating and torturing restrained enemies Palpatine style. That's about the only time I see it being useful. If your Fighter Champion can grapple that were creature (speed = 0) when there are no magic weapons, and maybe no silver ones, the witch bolt lgt damage can be applied round after round to slay the bad guy.

[Tanarii]

I love the concept but the idea that it is a whole action to keep it going, only a 30 ft range, scales horribly, and only does an average of 1 point more than a basic cantrip makes it not worth taking other than thematically.It typically does an average of ~2.2 more damage than a d10 attack roll cantrip before 5th level on consecutive rounds. To look at it another way, there's a ~40% chance it'll do damage at all, as opposed to doing none when a cantrip misses.

Not that Witch Bolt is worth defending the numbers on. :smallyuk:

[Son of A Lich!]

G'damn, Witch Bolt... who did you piss off?

Such a sad spell despite being so damn fluffy. More damage, lose the concentration and just do the save to break like a normal spell with a caveat of only having one witch bolt up at a time.

[Slayn82]

I think only goblins can use this spell effectively, with their bonus action disengage, and maybe the Ixalan climber variant.

Also, unlike Cantrips, it doesn't use an attack roll on subsequent turns, so on some niche cases fighting against a high defense/ AC enemy, your party gives a turn of set up ( inspiration dice, advantage) and you keep buzzing him.

But this spell mechanics on subsequent turns should have been worded differently. To make it end if not renewed on a turn, and to only be renewed by using your action with the enemy at the spell range. So if the enemy exits the range, you can pursue, and if you retreat and they follow, you can Witch Bolt him. Then it would be much better as a Kiting spell, without breaking the expected power of a first level spell.

Compare with Flaming Sphere. That's some nice Kiting spell.

[Digimike]

The most useful application I can see on witch bolt is twined spell. It's lv 1 so it's a mere 1sp. At the cost of a single sp and slot you can get some decent damage that autohits if you landed the first one.

[Tanarii]

The most useful application I can see on witch bolt is twined spell. It's lv 1 so it's a mere 1sp. At the cost of a single sp and slot you can get some decent damage that autohits if you landed the first one.
The spell would then end if either target left range or had total cover relative to you. Either that, or you'd need to use two actions each turn to do the followup damage. Obviously the former is better than the latter.

IM(limited)X with Sorc PCs actually selecting the spell, Distant Magic generally seems to works a little better, to keep the single target in range.

In theory you can use Quicken Spell so you can cast another Action leveled spell as a bonus action, and still use your Action to do 1d12 with Witch Bolt. But low level Sorcs don't really have the spell slots to dump that way.

[Beechgnome]

Witch bolt isn't a great player option, but it's a good spell for villains/NPCs in that it can force players to choose between taking the damage and continuing their action or switching to a more tactical retreat, which is a more interesting choice for players than just Am I too injured to fight?

Some spells are just more suited to your opponents. A villain with nystul's magic aura could pull off different shenanigans if he littered his dungeon with castings of the spell; for a player, it's uses are pretty niche.

Conversely, some spells are poor villain choices because they rob players of fun (banishment, I'm looking at you.)

[Digimike]

The spell would then end if either target left range or had total cover relative to you. Either that, or you'd need to use two actions each turn to do the followup damage. Obviously the former is better than the latter.

IM(limited)X with Sorc PCs actually selecting the spell, Distant Magic generally seems to works a little better, to keep the single target in range.

In theory you can use Quicken Spell so you can cast another Action leveled spell as a bonus action, and still use your Action to do 1d12 with Witch Bolt. But low level Sorcs don't really have the spell slots to dump that way.


My thought was higher level slots. Twin allows you to concentrate as if they were a single spell. Ie twin haste, and your action would work for both damaging effects. So 3rd level slot for twinned Witch Bolt and I SP since it's a level 1 spell. That would be 6d12 damage per round if you can keep the target in range. A tank with Sentinel should have that covered.

That sort of damage each round shouldn't cause a player to feel the need to quicken other spells and burn valuable sorcery points.

I apologise if my understanding of rules is off here. I've yet to play or DM a sorcerer since they're not a popular option at my table.

[JNAProductions]

If you cast it at 3rd level, it's treated as a 3rd level spell for SP costs.

[Tanarii]

It would also be 2d12 per round (one per target) because the ongoing damage doesnt scale. Which is why it tends to get swapped out for another spell.

[Digimike]

It would also be 2d12 per round (one per target) because the ongoing damage doesnt scale. Which is why it tends to get swapped out for another spell.

Yuk you're right. It does specify initial. Ty for the clarification. And to the previous poster on SP costs.

I'm officially in the "spell has no redeeming value at all" club.

[Vorpalchicken]

If you are below 5th level, and your target is in melee with three of your fightery friends, and moving away would provoke opportunity attacks. Totally worth it.

[Damon_Tor]

If you are below 5th level, and your target is in melee with three of your fightery friends, and moving away would provoke opportunity attacks. Totally worth it.

Eh. In a lockdown situation your concentration would be better spent maintaining Create Bonfire. It doesn't take an action to maintain it, so you can spend your subsequent turns tossing firebolts and dealing the bonfire damage and not spend your spell slots on (crappy) single target damage. Assuming you land your spells 65% of the time your bonfire and firebolt combo deals more damage on an average turn than your witch bolt does, and you haven't blown any resources to do it.

Oh, and your bonfire can "miss" on its initial casting and still deal its followup damage. If Witchbolt misses, it's just a spell slot in the wind.

[No brains]

Very limited power.

[Mjolnirbear]

Well, would using a bonus action instead of an action to maintain the spell fix it? Or is that too powerful? It could be the arcane caster's Spiritual Weapon.

[djreynolds]

So upcasted, witch bolt still only does 1d12 on subsequent turns?

Edit. Even sage advice says no.

Grab chromatic orb

[druid91]

Witchbolt is good because it allows you to do decent damage at level 1 over multiple turns with only costing one spell known.

It's not like you're going to be starving for spells known as a wizard.

[LudicSavant]

You are legitimately better off using your crossbow than casting Witch Bolt.

[Tanarii]

Well, would using a bonus action instead of an action to maintain the spell fix it? Or is that too powerful? It could be the arcane caster's Spiritual Weapon.
As written, maybe remove contraction? It'd still take an action every turn or it ends, and it could still end early by the enemy getting behind cover or out of range. So I can't see it being abused much. Mostly it'd just remove losing the spell to the spellcasters taking damage.

But it'd open up True Strike + Witch Bolt. Two terrible spells could actually work together for a minor benefit! :smalltongue:

[Vorpalchicken]

Eh. In a lockdown situation your concentration would be better spent maintaining Create Bonfire. It doesn't take an action to maintain it, so you can spend your subsequent turns tossing firebolts and dealing the bonfire damage and not spend your spell slots on (crappy) single target damage. Assuming you land your spells 65% of the time your bonfire and firebolt combo deals more damage on an average turn than your witch bolt does, and you haven't blown any resources to do it.

Oh, and your bonfire can "miss" on its initial casting and still deal its followup damage. If Witchbolt misses, it's just a spell slot in the wind.

I'm not saying it's a good spell by any means but I've seen it used satisfactorily at low level in the situation I outlined above. If you are a wizard, you can just learn new spells and never prepare this again past level 5. If you are not a wizard you can just replace this. Which is more than I can say about selecting two combat fire cantrips.

[druid91]

You are legitimately better off using your crossbow than casting Witch Bolt.

.... I can't tell if you're serious or not. On the off chance that you are, Witch bolt is one attack roll then damage until dropped using your action every round.

A crossbow is one shot every OTHER turn using your action every round doing less damage if you even hit at all. Which is unlikely because wizardry and crossbow marksmanship are two different abilities.

Sure you're not guaranteed the remaining hits but I've used Witchbolt pretty effectively.

The other thing it's really good for is Glyph of Warding. It's situational, but a few Glyphs of Warding at the bottom of a pit set up with Witchbolt is a pretty nasty surprise for whatever falls in.

[LudicSavant]

A crossbow is one shot every OTHER turn using your action every round

That's not a thing.

[Vorpalchicken]

That's not a thing.
And despite all logic the crossbow can be the fastest shooting weapon in the game.

[JNAProductions]

Witch Bolt, against an AC 13 enemy, has a 65% chance of hitting (assuming you're a +Casting Stat race) for 6.5 damage, with an action each round thereafter for another 6.5 assuming they never break cover or move away.

A Light Crossbow, against an AC 13 enemy, has a 60% chance of hitting (assuming a Dex of 14) for 6.5 damage, with an action each round thereafter for another 6.5 with a 60% chance of hitting.

The issue is that you can use a Crossbow at-will, ammo permitting, but Witch Bolt costs a pretty limited resource.

Now, admittedly, at higher levels 1st level slots aren't so valuable. But even at level 5...

Firebolt does 11*hit chance damage each round.
Witch Bolt does 6.5 each round, if the first one lands.

[sophontteks]

People, this is why you only buy your crossbows from certified retailers.

[Potato_Priest]

Eh. In a lockdown situation your concentration would be better spent maintaining Create Bonfire. It doesn't take an action to maintain it, so you can spend your subsequent turns tossing firebolts and dealing the bonfire damage and not spend your spell slots on (crappy) single target damage. Assuming you land your spells 65% of the time your bonfire and firebolt combo deals more damage on an average turn than your witch bolt does, and you haven't blown any resources to do it.

Oh, and your bonfire can "miss" on its initial casting and still deal its followup damage. If Witchbolt misses, it's just a spell slot in the wind.

The reason that conjure bonfire doesn't work as well here is that in a melee combat without grappling, enemies can move without provoking opportunity attacks, as long as they don't leave the reach of our party's fighter. Thus, if this is our battle map, where an orange square is a bonfire, X is empty space, A is our ally, and E is our enemy, the enemy can just move like this.

From here
XEX
XAX
XXX
to here
XXE
XAX
XXX

and thereby avoid the recurring damage of the bonfire, making witch bolt still marginally better in this particular circumstance, since the enemy still likely can't move out of that without sufffering an opportunity attack. Whether that marginal benefit is worth the spell slot is certainly another question, but it does have a benefit at least. Of course, this benefit evaporates if you're fighting in a 5ft corridor where the enemy is stuck on the bonfire.


The other thing it's really good for is Glyph of Warding. It's situational, but a few Glyphs of Warding at the bottom of a pit set up with Witchbolt is a pretty nasty surprise for whatever falls in.

How does the glyph of warding take the actions necessary to maintain the spell?

[LudicSavant]

and thereby avoid the recurring damage of the bonfire, making witch bolt still marginally better in this particular circumstance, since the enemy still likely can't move out of that without sufffering an opportunity attack. Whether that marginal benefit is worth the spell slot is certainly another question, but it does have a benefit at least. Of course, this benefit evaporates if you're fighting in a 5ft corridor where the enemy is stuck on the bonfire.

Another big factor here is that you don't use an action for maintaining Create Bonfire, so you're still firing your crossbow, which may well have higher DPR than Witch Bolt on its own anyways (For example, standard high elf level 1 Wizard with the usual 16/16/14 and a helpful familiar has an 87.75% chance of hitting an AC13 monster, with a 7.02 DPR counting hit and crit chance).

[Tanarii]

A Light Crossbow, against an AC 13 enemy, has a 60% chance of hitting (assuming a Dex of 14) for 6.5 damage, with an action each round thereafter for another 6.5 with a 60% chance of hitting.Dex 14 is a fairly hefty assumptionwhenypure already talking about a +casting stat race. It means you put your second highest stat there instead of Con, or that you are playing a +Casting Stat, +Dex race.

But that's kind of irrelevant because many casters take a cantrip with a better chance to hit that is roughly comparable to a crossbow (for their Dex hit + damage bonus vs casting stat).

[Vogie]

I use Allow at my table Witch bolt as a great spell to have fun with Sorcerer metamagic.

If you use distant spell, all subsequent uses are also at 60' (or 120' if you have spell sniper), without spending more points.
If you use Quickened Spell, all subsequent uses are also at bonus action with out spending more points
If you use Empowered, all subsequent uses are also empowered, without spending more points

and so on...

Spell Sniper + Twin makes it a decent recurring faux-AoE effect.

[Damon_Tor]

If you use distant spell, all subsequent uses are also at 60' (or 120' if you have spell sniper), without spending more points.
Correct, because the spell specifically ends when the target leaves the spell's range.


If you use Quickened Spell, all subsequent uses are also at bonus action with out spending more points
Incorrect. There's no reading of this spell that allows for this. At best you can use Quickened Spell to cast it as a bonus action then immediately use your action to trigger another instance of damage for 2d12 on one turn.


If you use Empowered, all subsequent uses are also empowered, without spending more points
Incorrect, re-read Empowered. You use empowered not when you cast a spell, but when you deal damage with a spell. Every instance of damage requires its own use of Empowered.

[Vogie]

Correct, because the spell specifically ends when the target leaves the spell's range.


Incorrect. There's no reading of this spell that allows for this. At best you can use Quickened Spell to cast it as a bonus action then immediately use your action to trigger another instance of damage for 2d12 on one turn.


Incorrect, re-read Empowered. You use empowered not when you cast a spell, but when you deal damage with a spell. Every instance of damage requires its own use of Empowered.

I was explaining what I use, at my table

Because Raw Witch Bolt sucks.

[Dalebert]

As already conceded, it can be made somewhat useful in tier 1 when used tactically but definitely drop it by tier 2 when you're just so much better off using cantrips with your actions at no resource cost other than the actions (which are a precious resource themselves).

I had a tier 3 warlock last night seriously contemplating using this in a boss fight last night. I had to explain some DPS math on the fly that resulted mostly in confused looks. And she already understood that the extra dmg from upcasting was only on the first turn.

That said, it seems to me that first level dmg spells in general don't scale well, either by tier or in terms of using higher level slots to cast them. Once you upcast to third, you're almost always better off with something like a lightning bolt and a little big of mild repositioning even if it's just for a single target. I don't get while they didn't make them more powerful with up-scaling to be just a little more competitive with other spells those levels.

[Doug Lampert]

As already conceded, it can be made somewhat useful in tier 1 when used tactically but definitely drop it by tier 2 when you're just so much better off using cantrips with your actions at no resource cost other than the actions (which are a precious resource themselves).

I had a tier 3 warlock last night seriously contemplating using this in a boss fight last night. I had to explain some DPS math on the fly that resulted mostly in confused looks. And she already understood that the extra dmg from upcasting was only on the first turn.

That said, it seems to me that first level dmg spells in general don't scale well, either by tier or in terms of using higher level slots to cast them. Once you upcast to third, you're almost always better off with something like a lightning bolt and a little big of mild repositioning even if it's just for a single target. I don't get while they didn't make them more powerful with up-scaling to be just a little more competitive with other spells those levels.

My own explanation is that if up-cast level 1 was competitive then 1 level dips by casters into other classes would be seen as too attractive. The only real reason NOT to multiclass your casters, is that upcasting isn't as good as higher level spells.

Admittedly, level 1 being as good at single target when upcast to level 3 as a level 3 AoA spell would be when used on a single target doesn't exactly invalidate level 3 spells as useful, but I think they saw this as a slippery slope that they didn't want to get on.

[bc56]

As a player in a game where our party wizard uses witch bolt, I can definitely say it looks a lot worse on paper than it ends up being in practice. Guaranteed damage every turn is significantly stronger at low levels than chromatic orb or repeated cantrips, because it is guaranteed. (Of course, having two frontliners to hold enemies back doesn't hurt)

[Mellack]

As a player in a game where our party wizard uses witch bolt, I can definitely say it looks a lot worse on paper than it ends up being in practice. Guaranteed damage every turn is significantly stronger at low levels than chromatic orb or repeated cantrips, because it is guaranteed. (Of course, having two frontliners to hold enemies back doesn't hurt)

The problem isn't really holding them back, it is holding them close enough. It is too easy for them to disengage and move away, ending the spell.

[sophontteks]

As a player in a game where our party wizard uses witch bolt, I can definitely say it looks a lot worse on paper than it ends up being in practice. Guaranteed damage every turn is significantly stronger at low levels than chromatic orb or repeated cantrips, because it is guaranteed. (Of course, having two frontliners to hold enemies back doesn't hurt)

Well, first. You are right, but not because witch bolt is good, or useful, but because chromatic orb is also a bad spell.

Its garunteed, barring them leaving the range or taking cover, if they don't make the save. But in that case what other effects can first level spells do if an enemy doesn't make a save?

Like, compare to dissonate whispers. better damage, the enemy takes multiple reaction attacks when it flees, and it doesn't take concentration.

Hideous laughter and the enemy is prone and out of the fight completely for a minimum of two rounds.

1d12 a round is just not a lot of damage, even if its garunteed.


EDIT: sorry, witchbolt is on a hit, not a save. Which begs, if the target was hard to hit due to a high AC, the garunteed damage from witchbolt looks even less appealing.

[KorvinStarmast]

The problem isn't really holding them back, it is holding them close enough. It is too easy for them to disengage and move away, ending the spell. Grapple the enemy. Speed = 0.

[Potato_Priest]

EDIT: sorry, witchbolt is on a hit, not a save. Which begs, if the target was hard to hit due to a high AC, the garunteed damage from witchbolt looks even less appealing.

I would much rather have an attack roll spell than one dependant on a saving throw (unless it is save for half). While against high AC opponents the attack roll is perhaps slightly less likely to work, there are many more abilities in the game that affect attack rolls than abilities that impose disadvantages on enemy saving throws.

[Eurus]

You are legitimately better off using your crossbow than casting Witch Bolt.

Wait, really? Numbers, please? I mean yeah Witch Bolt is a bad spell, but from what I can tell, it's technically better than not casting a spell at all... it's just weaker than pretty much any other spell you could cast.

[sophontteks]

I would much rather have an attack roll spell than one dependant on a saving throw (unless it is save for half). While against high AC opponents the attack roll is perhaps slightly less likely to work, there are many more abilities in the game that affect attack rolls than abilities that impose disadvantages on enemy saving throws.
You would in literally any case except where the AC is so high that you can't hit them, which would be the only case where doing only 1d12 with your action is acceptable damage.

I mean, if you can hit them, why would you witch bolt in the first place?

[Misterwhisper]

Wait, really? Numbers, please? I mean yeah Witch Bolt is a bad spell, but from what I can tell, it's technically better than not casting a spell at all... it's just weaker than pretty much any other spell you could cast.

Sorcerers are proficient with a light crossbow and more than likely the 1d8 + dex is going to be more damage than a flat d12.

Unless you are past level 6 where they would add their charisma to the lightning damage, but at that point just just walk up and shocking grasp for 2d8 + cha, taking their reaction and possibly attacking with advantage.

The spell is just not so much better than a cantrip that I would ever bother wasting a spell known on a sorcerer for it.

[LudicSavant]

Wait, really? Numbers, please?

Check post #37.

[Tanarii]

Wait, really? Numbers, please?
The numbers rely on you having an abnormally high Dex relative to an abnormally low casting stat. Otherwise Witch Bolt it going to do more damage than a Light Crossbow.

[LudicSavant]

The numbers rely on you having an abnormally high Dex relative to an abnormally low casting stat.

This is straight up false.

+3 Int is not "abnormally low" for a level 1 character using point buy. It is in fact the maximum value for a level 1 character using either point buy.

Not to mention that the #1 stated reason that firing a crossbow is better is that you leave your Concentration and a spell slot free.

{scrubbed}

[JNAProductions]

This is straight up false.

+3 Int is not "abnormally low" for a level 1 character using point buy. It is in fact the maximum value for a level 1 character using either point buy.

{scrubbed}

Not to mention that the #1 reason that firing a crossbow is better is that you leave your Concentration and a spell slot free.

You're also assuming a Familiar helping out... Which some DMs don't allow, and can easily result in a dead familiar.

Not to say Witch Bolt is good-its average is barely better than a crossbow with 16 Int and 14 Dex (same average damage, higher hit chance on the Witch Bolt by 5%) and is worse with 16s in both (higher average damage on the crossbow, same hit chance).

[LudicSavant]

Not to say Witch Bolt is good-its average is barely better than a crossbow with 16 Int and 14 Dex (same average damage, higher hit chance on the Witch Bolt by 5%) and is worse with 16s in both (higher average damage on the crossbow, same hit chance).

Yeah. This is the crux of it. Witch Bolt's DPR is barely better than a crossbow in the cases where it's better at all, and that difference is made up by the fact that you've got your Concentration and a spell slot open.

As I said in post #37, a big part of it is that you can use something like Create Bonfire and firing a crossbow at the same time. And heck, still have space left over for a reaction spell.

[Warlush]

Oh my god, oh my god, just find something to do with your bonus action. Cast healing word, quicken another spell, use with a rogue multiclass's cunning action, command your undead minions to grapple the target, pass out inspiration, interact with a &@$#*×% object.
Or get over it and don't use the spell. The thread title doesn't read "why you should take witch bolt" or "OP uses of witch bolt". It's just saying it's useful.
If you're a storm sorcerer shoot sombody with it, walk up to them and quicken booming blade. Now they either take damage from moving or staying. There. One use. Calm down.
Also if your necromancer every grows themselves a shambling mound you've got a 1st level continual healing spell.

[JNAProductions]

Shambling Mounds aren't undead.

And the issue is, it's between barely better and actually worse than shooting a crossbow levels 1-4, and significantly worse than a cantrip starting at level 5. It's not that your turn is wasted, it's that you could've been more useful while spending less resources.

[Porcupinata]

If something is difficult to hit but you can get Advantage for a round, Witch Bolt can use that Advantage for the initial hit and then not need to play the odds of hitting again in subsequent rounds. That's admittedly somewhat situational, but it does change the numbers.

[Dark Schneider]

A Cantrip is better. Yes it is not auto-hit with your action, but it scales with level. Fire Bolt at lvl 5 is 2d10 and can make criticals, with much better range.

Unless very situational, it is very easy to get out its 30 feet range, and use the ranged weapon (like javelin) in that round or something. You probably will not want to waste a prepared spell (Wizard) or more valueable known spell (Sorcerer) in something like that.

This spell should allow to put the ray (making another spell attack) into another target withing range to be useful.

[Kwinza]

Because Witchbolt is so jank my group plays that the follow up damage is up scaled too.

[sophontteks]

Oh my god, oh my god, just find something to do with your bonus action. Cast healing word, quicken another spell, use with a rogue multiclass's cunning action, command your undead minions to grapple the target, pass out inspiration, interact with a &@$#*×% object.
Or get over it and don't use the spell. The thread title doesn't read "why you should take witch bolt" or "OP uses of witch bolt". It's just saying it's useful.
If you're a storm sorcerer shoot sombody with it, walk up to them and quicken booming blade. Now they either take damage from moving or staying. There. One use. Calm down.
Also if your necromancer every grows themselves a shambling mound you've got a 1st level continual healing spell.
If a squishy storm sorcerer goes into melee range the enemy can just hit them and force a concentration check. If you use your action to do anything else, like casting a spell to get out of melee or withdrawing, witchbolt ends.

[Vogie]

If you're a storm sorcerer shoot sombody with it, walk up to them and quicken booming blade. Now they either take damage from moving or staying. There. One use. Calm down.
Also if your necromancer every grows themselves a shambling mound you've got a 1st level continual healing spell.

Well, you can't cast a spell then also have another spell as a bonus action on the same turn. If you use a bonus action, your action can only be a cantrip (or action other than casting a spell).

But beyond the first turn, using your action to keep applying your Witch Bolt then quickening Booming Blade/Lightning Lure/Chaos Bolt or anything else on each turn as a bonus action each turn after that. That's a great idea, actually. More reasons that Witch Bolt only really works for sorcerers.

[strangebloke]

The thing people have to understand is that when optimizers say "this single-target damage spell is bad" that they'd also say that "All single target damage spells are bad."

Chromatic orb? Its a first level spell that deals as much damage as a greatsword swing.
Disintegrate? Good against a beefy monster that has low DEX, but with no damage on a save, it's too likely to be a waste.
Guiding bolt? It's... better than chromatic orb, for sure, but your low-level character will be really sad when it misses, and your mid-level character should probably just use a cantrip.

Witch Bolt is not good compared even to other direct damage spells. However, it does have a niche. Against high-AC, low mobility foes (or foes trapped in a room) the 30 foot range is actually pretty much a non-issue, and the automatic 1d12 can actually be a lot stronger than other attack options.

Like, consider your bog-standard animated armor. It's got 18 AC, and if you're level 1 or 2 when facing it, you'll only have a 40% chance of hitting it, or 64% chance with your familiar aiding you. A normal firebolt with familiar aid against that thing deals an expected 3 damage a turn and the fighter with a greatsword deals a wopping four. If your first witchbolt hits, you'll be out damaging the fighter by nearly 50%!

Of course, Toll the Dead at that level deals an expected 6.2 without using a spell, but not everyone can be a cleric. (this is a lie. Everyone can be a cleric)

In similar situations, the spell can be worth it at high levels, as you could still cast a highly upcast version of the spell. The damage doesn't scale poorly. Against a single target, a fourth level witch bolt deals a lot more damage than a Wall of Fire, although the latter is also an aoe, and provides obscurement, and can sometimes hit twice in a round. The issue is that, high-AC targets become more rare at mid-to-high levels, and monsters also tend to become much more mobile as the game goes on.

So it has a niche that becomes narrower and narrower as the game goes on.

[Warlush]

Well, you can't cast a spell then also have another spell as a bonus action on the same turn. If you use a bonus action, your action can only be a cantrip (or action other than casting a spell)

Yeah? How does what i suggested contradict that?

[Misterwhisper]

The thing people have to understand is that when optimizers say "this single-target damage spell is bad" that they'd also say that "All single target damage spells are bad."

Chromatic orb? Its a first level spell that deals as much damage as a greatsword swing.
Disintegrate? Good against a beefy monster that has low DEX, but with no damage on a save, it's too likely to be a waste.
Guiding bolt? It's... better than chromatic orb, for sure, but your low-level character will be really sad when it misses, and your mid-level character should probably just use a cantrip.

Witch Bolt is not good compared even to other direct damage spells. However, it does have a niche. Against high-AC, low mobility foes (or foes trapped in a room) the 30 foot range is actually pretty much a non-issue, and the automatic 1d12 can actually be a lot stronger than other attack options.

Like, consider your bog-standard animated armor. It's got 18 AC, and if you're level 1 or 2 when facing it, you'll only have a 40% chance of hitting it, or 64% chance with your familiar aiding you. A normal firebolt with familiar aid against that thing deals an expected 3 damage a turn and the fighter with a greatsword deals a wopping four. If your first witchbolt hits, you'll be out damaging the fighter by nearly 50%!

Of course, Toll the Dead at that level deals an expected 6.2 without using a spell, but not everyone can be a cleric. (this is a lie. Everyone can be a cleric)

In similar situations, the spell can be wort
h it at high levels, as you could still cast a highly upcast version of the spell. The damage doesn't scale poorly. Against a single target, a fourth level witch bolt deals a lot more damage than a Wall of Fire, although the latter is also an aoe, and provides obscurement, and can sometimes hit twice in a round. The issue is that, high-AC targets become more rare at mid-to-high levels, and monsters also tend to become much more mobile as the game goes on.

So it has a niche that becomes narrower and narrower as the game goes on.

Witchbolt’s damage aftert the initial bolt does not scale at all. You are blowing a 4th level spell slot so you can wast an entire action to do 1d12 from then on and using concentration.

Also at low levels if the enemy is hard to hit why would you waste casting one of your few spell slots on a spell that does nothing on a miss?

[sophontteks]

Chromatic orb does as much damage as a greatsword. Is this a good use of a spell slot? Imagine if you could only swing a greatsword 5 times a day.

[strangebloke]

Witchbolt’s damage aftert the initial bolt does not scale at all. You are blowing a 4th level spell slot so you can wast an entire action to do 1d12 from then on and using concentration.

Also at low levels if the enemy is hard to hit why would you waste casting one of your few spell slots on a spell that does nothing on a miss?

Ah right, I forgot about the damage scaling thing. So yeah, if you can't upcast it, there might be a good application past level five, but past level 7 or so there's going to basically never be a situation for it.

As to AC, your odds of missing aren't that high, thanks to your familiar. Even against an animated armor, you've got a 64% chance.

But frankly, nearly all first level offensive spells do nothing on a save/miss. Guiding bolt? You just give one ally advantage. Chromatic orb? Nothing. Bane? nothing. Tasha's? Nothing. And so on.

Regardless, its a terrible spell for a sorcerer. leave niche spells to the wizard.

[Warlush]

Chromatic orb does as much damage as a greatsword. Is this a good use of a spell slot? Imagine if you could only swing a greatsword 5 times a day.

Yeah i pick Chromatic orb about as often as Witch Bolt. I mean the damage on magic missle is nothing special but at least it's an auto hit AND force damage.

[sophontteks]

On my first time DMing a player upcast magic missile and I was pretty shocked by the damage output. I was used to it being just a little spell.

[strangebloke]

Chromatic orb does as much damage as a greatsword. Is this a good use of a spell slot? Imagine if you could only swing a greatsword 5 times a day.

I said that nearly all direct damage spells are considered to be bad.

I would agree with that assessment, mostly. Chromatic Orb is occasionally useful when dealing with an enemy that has some specific vulnerability or immunity, but otherwise its not worth using, let alone preparing or copying.


Yeah i pick Chromatic orb about as often as Witch Bolt. I mean the damage on magic missle is nothing special but at least it's an auto hit AND force damage.

Magic Missile is one of the 'good' direct damage spells, but it's still pretty meh IMO. I'd say its on par with guiding bolt for first-level damage.

[Potato_Priest]

Well, you can't cast a spell then also have another spell as a bonus action on the same turn. If you use a bonus action, your action can only be a cantrip (or action other than casting a spell).

But beyond the first turn, using your action to keep applying your Witch Bolt then quickening Booming Blade/Lightning Lure/Chaos Bolt or anything else on each turn as a bonus action each turn after that. That's a great idea, actually. More reasons that Witch Bolt only really works for sorcerers.

Booming blade is a cantrip, actually, so you can combine both castings.

[sophontteks]

I said that nearly all direct damage spells are considered to be bad.

I would agree with that assessment, mostly. Chromatic Orb is occasionally useful when dealing with an enemy that has some specific vulnerability or immunity, but otherwise its not worth using, let alone preparing or copying.



Magic Missile is one of the 'good' direct damage spells, but it's still pretty meh IMO. I'd say its on par with guiding bolt for first-level damage.

Oh sorry I may have misunderstood your opinion.

[Vogie]

Booming blade is a cantrip, actually, so you can combine both castings.

Only if you quicken the Witch Bolt as a bonus action. You can't Cast Witch Bolt as an action, then Quicken Booming Blade.

You CAN recur Witch Bolt as an action, then Quicken Booming Blade.

Order does matter, especially if you're using something like Distant spell (allowing you to do the combo at range)

In fact, we happen to have one on the previous page.


Yeah? How does what i suggested contradict that?

Yep, That's the one. I'll bold the actions:



If you're a storm sorcerer shoot somebody with it (Using an action to cast a spell), walk up to them and quicken booming blade (Bonus Action Spell Cast). Now they either take damage from moving or staying.

Compared to


Bonus Action
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action


There's been a table floating around about it as well...



Action
Bonus Action
Legal?


Non-Cantrip

Yes


Cantrip

Yes



Non-Cantrip
Yes



Cantrip
Yes


Non-Cantrip
Cantrip
No


Cantrip
Non-Cantrip
Yes


Non-Cantrip
Non-Cantrip
No


Cantrip
Cantrip
Yes

[LudicSavant]

If something is difficult to hit but you can get Advantage for a round, Witch Bolt can use that Advantage for the initial hit and then not need to play the odds of hitting again in subsequent rounds. That's admittedly somewhat situational, but it does change the numbers.

It does indeed change the numbers, but not as positively as one might expect.

Let's take an exceptionally high AC low level monster: The Animated Armor. It boasts a whopping 18 AC at CR1.

Even if you have Advantage for that initial hit, there's a 36% (more than 1 in 3) chance that your Witch Bolt did nothing at all.

Going into round 2, there's a 36% chance that you never hit Witch Bolt in the first place, another X% chance that your Witch Bolt got interrupted by one of the many things that shuts off Witch Bolt (like Concentration failure, cover, range), and a (1-(36+X))% chance that you get to deal your Witch Bolt damage that turn.

The other (36+X)% of the time, you have to fall back on using something else.

Even if we generously assume a 100% chance of maintaining Witch Bolt, Witch Bolt's expected damage over 3 rounds against an Animated Armor with Advantage would look like this:

Round 1: ~4.8 DPR
Round 2: ~4.16 DPR + (0.36 * DPR of whatever action you'd take if Witch Bolt missed on turn 1).
Round 3: Same (though if we weren't assuming 100% maintenance chance, the interruption chance would compound for round 3 and make your DPR lower than round 2).

So for example, if your backup action is a 16 Dex Crossbow shot, your projected DPR for rounds 2 and 3 would be only ~5.3 DPR (~15.4 damage over 3 rounds). If it was instead Toll the Dead, it would be (assuming enemy was injured) ~6.0 DPR (~16.8 damage over 3 rounds)

But... if you just cast Toll the Dead 3 times, you'd have about 15.6 damage over 3 rounds.

If I used Magic Missile then TtD 2 times, it'd instead be about 20.9 damage over 3 rounds. And there's no chance of interruption or the like to worry about there. And your Concentration remains free for whatever.

In fact, if I used a 16 Dex crossbow on round 1 (when have Advantage), then Magic Missile on round 2, and then did literally nothing on round 3, I'd have ~15.7 damage over 3 rounds.

So... yeaaaah. Witch Bolt is even more situational than one might expect. Even against the "high AC enemy trapped in a room with Advantage on just the first round and assuming that you have no chance of interruption" it's just kind of lame.

[AvatarVecna]

I guess if your fights involve neither significant cover nor wide open spaces, and tend to last at least 10 rounds (10 rounds in which you'll be in charging range and not attacked significantly, since the spell ends if you lose concentration from taking significant damage...or y'know, dying), then yeah you can get an awful lot of mileage out of this spell. But if any of those things aren't true...well. I dunno, my approach to picking sorcerer spells is to take things I think will be useful every fight, and fights involving cover, open spaces, or engagements I don't expect to last 60 seconds are common enough that I would probably want something with a bit more versatility, like Chromatic Orb where I can pick the damage type every time I cast it, and the amount of damage I get out of it is consistently decent for a 1st lvl spell. But that's just me.

EDIT: Like, don't get me wrong, it's not "True Strike" levels of awful, where even imagining a scenario where it's useful is difficult, but...I can imagine situations where Witch Bolt is useful (close cramped combats where the enemy can neither run away nor even temporarily break LoE via total cover, which are double-deadly by their XP value but are actually custom monsters with pitiful DPR and ridiculous HP - meaning that it'll take you a minute to kill them, but they probably won't kill you in a minute), but my general experience with playing the game is that situations like that are just...rather uncommon. And "maybe this will be a fantastic option in this highly specific scenario" isn't a good reason to spend a spell known slot on it.

So...I guess what I'm saying is that Witch Bolt isn't True Strike awful, it's...Poison Spray awful. Yeah, that's a good comparison.

[ad_hoc]

As a player in a game where our party wizard uses witch bolt, I can definitely say it looks a lot worse on paper than it ends up being in practice. Guaranteed damage every turn is significantly stronger at low levels than chromatic orb or repeated cantrips, because it is guaranteed. (Of course, having two frontliners to hold enemies back doesn't hurt)

Over 3 rounds (average combat length)

Witch Bolt + Firebolt:

.65 * 3d12 = 12.7
.35 * (.65 * 2d10) = 2.5

10.7 + 2.5 = 15.2

Chromatic Orb + Firebolt:


.65 * 3d8 + 2d10 = 16

Assuming Witch Bolt stays connected for the last 2 rounds and the combat lasts 3 rounds; it does .8 less damage than Chromatic Orb.

Other benefits:

Chromatic Orb allows for other actions in subsequent rounds.
Chromatic Orb deals more damage in r1 so it is more likely to take an enemy out.
Chromatic Orb plus Firebolts are more useful against smaller enemies.

[LudicSavant]

Guaranteed damage every turn is significantly stronger at low levels than chromatic orb or repeated cantrips, because it is guaranteed. (Of course, having two frontliners to hold enemies back doesn't hurt)

The error here is that Witch Bolt isn't guaranteed in the sense that, say, Magic Missile is. It has a miss chance, it effectively just spreads the damage for that successful hit over multiple rounds (and makes that damage vulnerable to interruption). As such, the DPR for Witch Bolt is not 6.5 per round (as demonstrated in both my previous post and Ad_Hoc's latest post).

[Jerrykhor]

I won't ever bother with witchbolt, because i dont like spells that hog both my Concentration and my Action. I guess the designers wanted the spell to have a channeling feel to it, but the mechanics are just too restrictive on top of being unrewarding. In the end, it does feel like I am channeling a stream of lightning, but the effect feels like punching an enemy hard every round rather than electrocuting the a creature.

[AvatarVecna]

I won't ever bother with witchbolt, because i dont like spells that hog both my Concentration and my Action. I guess the designers wanted the spell to have a channeling feel to it, but the mechanics are just too restrictive on top of being unrewarding. In the end, it does feel like I am channeling a stream of lightning, but the effect feels like punching an enemy hard every round rather than electrocuting the a creature.

Same. I think the idea of the spell is pretty solid, but the execution (even ignoring the significant ways the spell can be ended prematurely) is pretty lackluster. I think I'm gonna throw together a homebrew replacement...hopefully something with a bit of punch.