"Laeral Silverhand's magic isn't as great as it once was"

[CapnZapp]

I'm looking at her stat block (Dragon Heist page 207)... and I don't see it.

In what way is her magic not as great? http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/confused.png

As great as... what? Is it that she formerly was of a higher "level" (or CR)? Or that she used to have other, even more impressive, abilities?

Anyone know (or can make educated guesses)?

[hymer]

Her CR was 34 in 3.5, and is now 17, half that. Not directly comparable from edition to edition, but still. In 2nd edition she was yet another of FR's wizards over level 20. Now her casting is level 19.

She's Mystra's Chosen, so did she used to wield Spellfire? Maybe that's gone?

Edit: Ah, here's something (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Laeral_Silverhand).


As a centuries-old wizard, Laeral is one of the most accomplished spellcasters in Faerûn, though her powers have been steadily declining as she has to increasingly devote her energies to maintaining her aging body. Like all Chosen, Laeral's divine blessings have been much reduced in the wake of the Sundering, as all gods have taken a more distant approach to interfering in mortal affairs. Nonetheless, her knowledge and facility with Weave-craft, as well as her silver fire, sets her apart from non-Chosen.

[Unoriginal]

I'm looking at her stat block (Dragon Heist page 207)... and I don't see it.

In what way is her magic not as great? http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/confused.png

As great as... what? Is it that she formerly was of a higher "level" (or CR)? Or that she used to have other, even more impressive, abilities?


She used to be a 3.X Wizard. Now she's a 5e Wizard.

It should say enough.



Anyone know (or can make educated guesses)?

The book make it clear, though: yes, she is an extremely impressive and awesome Wizard... but she was still greater before. Magic was stronger back then, and her goddess died. Now she's a Chosen of Mystra without anyone to do the chosing.

Apparently in 3.5 she used to be a Wizard lvl 19/Ranger 7/Sorcerer 4, and that's before factoring in the blessings Mystra was granting her.

It's kind of like Nicolas Bolas suffering from the difference in power between modern Planeswalkers and the ones of old.



Edit: Ah, here's something (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Laeral_Silverhand).

I'd take the wiki with a grain of salt, though.


Anyway, the point is, when something isn't "as great as it once was", the only way to see it is if you have a comparison. If you meet someone capable of swimming underwater for 10 minutes and they tell you they can't swim as well as they used to, saying "I don't see it" is a bit missing the point, right?

[hymer]

I'd take the wiki with a grain of salt, though.
Since it's referring to a book by Ed Greenwood, I think that one is as safe to eat as any dish served in Faerûn.

[Clistenes]

On one hand, I am happy that all those nosy Chosen get nerfed.

On the other hand, CR 17 sounds kinda low for a character who has spent millennia raising her abilities, learning feats and gathering Legendary magic items, even if she has lost her divine blessings...

[Rafaelfras]

Now she's a Chosen of Mystra without anyone to do the chosing.



Mystra is alive again in 5th ed as a major Godess

[Unoriginal]

On one hand, I am happy that all those nosy Chosen get nerfed.

On the other hand, CR 17 sounds kinda low for a character who has spent millennia raising her abilities, learning feats and gathering Legendary magic items, even if she has lost her divine blessings...

The statblock is for her "day to day in the city" mode. She certainly keeps her most powerful blings locked safely in case of troubles.

Also keep in mind, she's only slightly weaker than Acererak, who has spent millenia roaming planes and worlds to gather power without things like "ethics" slowing him down.

[Rafaelfras]

The statblock is for her "day to day in the city" mode. She certainly keeps her most powerful blings locked safely in case of troubles.

Also keep in mind, she's only slightly weaker than Acererak, who has spent millenia roaming planes and worlds to gather power without things like "ethics" slowing him down.

Do you think these are a proof that 5 e is not going to introduce epic level playing? So even NPC´s are being normalized top lvl 1-20 play?
This is they saying "the game does not go beyond level 20" ?

[Unoriginal]

Do you think these are a proof that 5 e is not going to introduce epic level playing? So even NPC´s are being normalized top lvl 1-20 play?
This is they saying "the game does not go beyond level 20" ?

...yes?

They've never hidden this. Beyond lvl 20, you get Boons, and that's it.

There are creatures that are beyond CR 20, to be sure, but even the Mad Mage counts as a lvl 20 wizard in term of spellcasting. Of course he also got other tricks from his studies, but that's beside the point.

I'm not sure why people expect differently when it's been confirmed since at least the DMG.

[RedMage125]

Do you think these are a proof that 5 e is not going to introduce epic level playing? So even NPC´s are being normalized top lvl 1-20 play?
This is they saying "the game does not go beyond level 20" ?

I think if ANY of FR's NPCs were going to be "Epic", it would be Elminster or Halaster. Of the two, we have one's stat block, Halaster.

Then again, NPCs don't use the same character creation rules PCs do...

There's a book on DM's Guild that has epic level rules, if you want.

[Imbalance]

Do you think these are a proof that 5 e is not going to introduce epic level playing? So even NPC´s are being normalized top lvl 1-20 play?
This is they saying "the game does not go beyond level 20" ?

Maybe only as a final sendoff. Given 5e's age and the recent clearance sales on sourcebooks, I'd wager that WotC is beginning to lay the groundwork for the next edition.

[Darth Ultron]

Well, by 3.5E Laeral was a demigod. She could use plenty of effects as spell like abilities or even super natural abilities. She is immune to a lot of effects. She could use the Silver Fire, at will.

Of course the big thing is the spells. 5E magic and spells are very weak compared to 3.5E, as they weakened everything to make the complainers happy. 3.5E 9th level spells like Khelben's dweomerdoom or Laeral's crowning touch are much, much, much more powerful then 5E 9th level spells like power word kill or meteor swarm. Even lower level spells, like Lutzaen's frequent jaunt, were very powerful(dimension door 1/round).

And of course, back in 2E, she was beyond a demigod in power. The power level of 2E, is way beyond the dreams of 5E.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe only as a final sendoff. Given 5e's age and the recent clearance sales on sourcebooks, I'd wager that WotC is beginning to lay the groundwork for the next edition.

They are not. Mearls recently commented how given 5e's success and rythm of publication, a new edition is unlikely to be started to work on any time soon.

[Rafaelfras]

...yes?

They've never hidden this. Beyond lvl 20, you get Boons, and that's it.

There are creatures that are beyond CR 20, to be sure, but even the Mad Mage counts as a lvl 20 wizard in term of spellcasting. Of course he also got other tricks from his studies, but that's beside the point.

I'm not sure why people expect differently when it's been confirmed since at least the DMG.

Becouse in 3rd ed you had DMG (if i am not missremembering) and the Forggoten Reams Camping Guide with rules for levels over 20 (FRCG being very similar in nature with 5 ed DMG) that were vastly diferent from the ones that came latter o the Epic level guide.
The diference this time are the NPC´s. In 3rd edition it was very common to see then over the 20 level treshold. on 5th most of then are being "normalized"

[CapnZapp]

She used to be a 3.X Wizard. Now she's a 5e Wizard.

It should say enough.

:tongue::biggrin:

Yes, of course, I should have known - how traumatic isn't the fall from quadratic to linear power... :smallcool:

But seriously...

[Clistenes]

Halaster is CR 23, while a "normal" 20 lvl caster would be around CR 12. He is vastly more powerful than CR 17 Laeral Silverhand...

I think I read somewhere about an NPC who had the skills of both a lvl 20 Fighter and of a lvl 20 Wizard... can't remember what book he was in... That shows how a very long lived character (PC or NPC) could expand their power.