Best Rogue Archetype for Unarmed Monk

[Zetram]

I'm very new to D&D and my first character is a Monk w/ Hermit background, currently level 4 (Way of the Open Hand)

For RP reasons he's only going be unarmed, so obviously I want to wait a bit before multiclassing. I'm think either after level 5 or 8 depending how the campaign progresses.

My goal is to make a battlefield controller that zips around hamstringing casters and assisting our Rogue and Barbarian on the front lines. I already realized my first error in taking 2+ Dex instead of the Mobility feat, I plan on taking it at Lvl 8 though.

Anyway, I realized I could save some Ki with free disengages, and add double dashing to my repertoire, by taking 2 lvls of Rogue. I was then looking at the archetypes at lvl 3, and most wouldn't help much since I don't use weapons, but Scout caught my eye with the Skirmish feature (If an enemy ends their turn within 5ft of you, you can use your reaction to move half your movement speed). Plus I think it would be cool for RP reasons for my Monk to be an expert at Nature and Survival.

Do you guys think its worth it? Should I just go straight Monk since I don't get Sneak Attack, and plan on getting Mobility anyway? Would it be better to just go with Swashbuckler and skip the Mobility feat?

[CTurbo]

Scout all the way! Being able to move up to half of your speed as a reaction is amazing for a Monk. I'd take 5 levels Rogue max.

[Vogie]

I wouldn't level it up if you weren't using it in some variety. Even if you picked up daggers or even darts to use for ranged skirmishes so you'd occasionally trigger it. I like the idea of using Scout Rogue to further cement your background

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

Honestly, if you're gonna be taking mobility anyway, I'd skip rogue altogether. You're sacrificing Ki and Monk progression for that move on reaction. As for double dashing for free, remember that you're giving up at least 2 ki points (3 if you grab the archetypes) so it better be something you're planning on doing at least 3 to 4 times per short rest, otherwise it's not worth it.

If it's for RP reasons and to get the expertise (at level 1 and Nature/Survival at level 3) then do it for that reason, but for combat I don't see it being better than just taking monk levels.

To answer the actual question, if you're taking Rogue anyway, Swashbuckler could totally save you a feat and you can take nature/survival as expertise (if you already have one of those skills). Scout would be my pick for what you're going for, though, for RP reasons.

[Zetram]

Scout all the way! Being able to move up to half of your speed as a reaction is amazing for a Monk. I'd take 5 levels Rogue max.
Exactly my thoughts!


I wouldn't level it up if you weren't using it in some variety. Even if you picked up daggers or even darts to use for ranged skirmishes so you'd occasionally trigger it. I like the idea of using Scout Rogue to further cement your background
You mean go straight monk?


Honestly, if you're gonna be taking mobility anyway, I'd skip rogue altogether. You're sacrificing Ki and Monk progression for that move on reaction. As for double dashing for free, remember that you're giving up at least 2 ki points (3 if you grab the archetypes) so it better be something you're planning on doing at least 3 to 4 times per short rest, otherwise it's not worth it.
This is the crux that has me second guessing myself. I just hate being stuck spending ki to disengage for 3 levels, but I end up shorting myself on ki in the end.

I just was so unimpressed with what Monks gets at 18-20 that I didn't factor in how beneficial just having 3 ki additional points is.

I guess what I'll do is level to 8, get mobility, and see how that works.

Thanks all!!

[djreynolds]

AFB, but I think fancy foot works just as the mobile feat.

Its just, usually, a rogue is assumed to have 1 attack, or is duel wielding like a swashbuckler

So yes swashbuckler isn't a bad option for monk, its a 3 level dip worth 3 ki points though, but you adding in 2d6 sneak attack damage and 2 skill with expertise

So taking swashbuckler would allow you to "move away" adversaries you've attacked, just like the mobile feat.

For you, 17th level is the sweet spot for quivering palm

[Zonugal]

As always I would encourage you to make choices that you'll enjoy soon rather than chase a dream of a 20th-level character.

Most games never reach those high-levels.

[Palfatreos]

What about Lvl1 cleric dip instead of rogue. you could use cantrips like guidance/resistance to get +1d4 on ability/saving trow. also you have acces to the lvl1 bless/shielf of faith buff spells. Since monk dont have anything to concentrate on these could help alot. As for subclass you could take tempest cleric that has Wrath of the Storm which allow you use your reaction to attack your attacker with thunder damage.

the lvl 20 monk feat is underwellming but the lvl 18 on the other hand one of best feat for monk. For only 4 ki point you tun invible + gain restance this make you hell to take down and if the enemy cant detect you all your attacks has adv that doesnt require concentration.

[stoutstien]

What about Lvl1 cleric dip instead of rogue. you could use cantrips like guidance/resistance to get +1d4 on ability/saving trow. also you have acces to the lvl1 bless/shielf of faith buff spells. Since monk dont have anything to concentrate on these could help alot. As for subclass you could take tempest cleric that has Wrath of the Storm which allow you use your reaction to attack your attacker with thunder damage.

the lvl 20 monk feat is underwellming but the lvl 18 on the other hand one of best feat for monk. For only 4 ki point you tun invible + gain restance this make you hell to take down and if the enemy cant detect you all your attacks has adv that doesnt require concentration.
Second this. Monks are always needing more ki

[Zonugal]

What about Lvl1 cleric dip instead of rogue. you could use cantrips like guidance/resistance to get +1d4 on ability/saving trow. also you have acces to the lvl1 bless/shielf of faith buff spells. Since monk dont have anything to concentrate on these could help alot. As for subclass you could take tempest cleric that has Wrath of the Storm which allow you use your reaction to attack your attacker with thunder damage.

A single level dip into an 'Arcana Domain' Cleric can also grab you two Wizard cantrips keyed off of wisdom!

[Zetram]

As always I would encourage you to make choices that you'll enjoy soon rather than chase a dream of a 20th-level character.

Most games never reach those high-levels.

That's a good point I never considered. Thanks!


What about Lvl1 cleric dip instead of rogue. you could use cantrips like guidance/resistance to get +1d4 on ability/saving trow. also you have acces to the lvl1 bless/shielf of faith buff spells. Since monk dont have anything to concentrate on these could help alot. As for subclass you could take tempest cleric that has Wrath of the Storm which allow you use your reaction to attack your attacker with thunder damage.

the lvl 20 monk feat is underwellming but the lvl 18 on the other hand one of best feat for monk. For only 4 ki point you tun invible + gain restance this make you hell to take down and if the enemy cant detect you all your attacks has adv that doesnt require concentration.



A single level dip into an 'Arcana Domain' Cleric can also grab you two Wizard cantrips keyed off of wisdom!

Those are good tips, but my Monk is vehemently against magic in almost all its forms.

In the end I'm more about the RP than I am DPR. Our rouge and barbarian do crazy damage as do our two rangers. I just want to be there to help the melee keep advantage and/or harry the casters until the range takes them out.

[Zonugal]

Those are good tips, but my Monk is vehemently against magic in almost all its forms.

Have you considered taking the Mage Slayer feat?

[Zetram]

Have you considered taking the Mage Slayer feat?

Yes, but much further down the line after maxing out DEX

[Atavis]

Those are good tips, but my Monk is vehemently against magic in almost all its forms.

In the end I'm more about the RP than I am DPR. Our rouge and barbarian do crazy damage as do our two rangers. I just want to be there to help the melee keep advantage and/or harry the casters until the range takes them out.

Mobility was a game changer for my monk. It's been the single best build upgrade he has gotten through out all his levels.

With the newest errata, Monks have become good grapplers since it automatically succeeds on a stunned creature. A monk with mobile and all the extra speed could be really interesting at dragging a stunned and grappled creature over to the slow guys to pummel on. That could mean max wisdom and maybe build into things like Gloom Stalker Ranger for the extra attacks and speed. Just a thought.

[CTurbo]

Monks don't really need a lot of feats, but Mobile is great. I'd max Dex asap though.

My 20 Dex, 20 Wis Long Death Monk was awesome even with no feat, and then I took Mobile and it was even awesome-er lol

[Zetram]

Mobility was a game changer for my monk. It's been the single best build upgrade he has gotten through out all his levels.

With the newest errata, Monks have become good grapplers since it automatically succeeds on a stunned creature. A monk with mobile and all the extra speed could be really interesting at dragging a stunned and grappled creature over to the slow guys to pummel on. That could mean max wisdom and maybe build into things like Gloom Stalker Ranger for the extra attacks and speed. Just a thought.

EDIT: Forgot about the save DC

[Samayu]

I never put Mobile on my monks. With their added movement and ki for disengage, they're halfway there already, so there are better options. Like raising attributes. Monks really need that. Mage slayer would be a better feat, assuming you ran into many of them.

So I'd suggest going rogue, but then I also don't like multiclassing monks, since they have such fun abilities at all levels.

Anyway, with your current situation (already Mobile), stay with monk though 9th to get wall-running, then go Swashbuckler. Rakish Audacity is great. You're a monk with extra movement (and hopefully now an initiative bonus), so you get to pick a target where you can best use your sneak attack. And run away to where he can't hit you back.

[djreynolds]

Fancy footwork and the mobile feat, serve one purpose... to save KI points

Step of the wind and patient defense not only cost KI points but your bonus action as well

So at 5th level instead of 4 attacks and walking away from possibly 4 monsters, you are getting two attacks and losing your BA attack and FOB

With the mobile feat, you can always have 3 attacks after 5th level.

Now you can save that KI for stunning fist.

[Palfatreos]

With the no weapon/magic restriction i would just go straight monk and focus on max dex/wis.

[djreynolds]

I'm very new to D&D and my first character is a Monk w/ Hermit background, currently level 4 (Way of the Open Hand)

For RP reasons he's only going be unarmed, so obviously I want to wait a bit before multiclassing. I'm think either after level 5 or 8 depending how the campaign progresses.

My goal is to make a battlefield controller that zips around hamstringing casters and assisting our Rogue and Barbarian on the front lines. I already realized my first error in taking 2+ Dex instead of the Mobility feat, I plan on taking it at Lvl 8 though.

Anyway, I realized I could save some Ki with free disengages, and add double dashing to my repertoire, by taking 2 lvls of Rogue. I was then looking at the archetypes at lvl 3, and most wouldn't help much since I don't use weapons, but Scout caught my eye with the Skirmish feature (If an enemy ends their turn within 5ft of you, you can use your reaction to move half your movement speed). Plus I think it would be cool for RP reasons for my Monk to be an expert at Nature and Survival.

Do you guys think its worth it? Should I just go straight Monk since I don't get Sneak Attack, and plan on getting Mobility anyway? Would it be better to just go with Swashbuckler and skip the Mobility feat?

If you attack with a short sword, you will get sneak attack.

The big issue is really how many levels is this campaign going to, will you see 17th level monk even.

Swashbuckler is a very good 3 level dip, its worth it. Expertise in 2 skills, 2d6 SA (short sword, dagger, dart, even a short bow), rakish audacity and fancy footwork are really good. You won't see the huge benefit til 5th level monk when you get your extra attack. But the damage from sneak attack will help. So character level 8 is when you will see it.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

If you attack with a short sword, you will get sneak attack.

Swashbuckler is a very good 3 level dip, its worth it. Expertise in 2 skills, 2d6 SA (short sword, dagger, dart, even a short bow), rakish audacity and fancy footwork are really good. You won't see the huge benefit til 5th level monk when you get your extra attack. But the damage from sneak attack will help. So character level 8 is when you will see it.

His character is specifically attacking unarmed for story purposes, so unless his DM rules monk fists as finesse weapons, he's losing out on sneak attack, which loses half of Rakish Audacity. If he grabs mobility, that's another feature gone, which would leave him with +Cha to initiative like. He'd still get an expertise and cunning action, but he wouldn't be getting as much out of it as other archetypes or just going monk. Obviously, the option gets a little better if he decides against mobility (which would likely be the case if he went Swashbuckler).

[djreynolds]

His character is specifically attacking unarmed for story purposes, so unless his DM rules monk fists as finesse weapons, he's losing out on sneak attack, which loses half of Rakish Audacity. If he grabs mobility, that's another feature gone, which would leave him with +Cha to initiative like. He'd still get an expertise and cunning action, but he wouldn't be getting as much out of it as other archetypes or just going monk. Obviously, the option gets a little better if he decides against mobility (which would likely be the case if he went Swashbuckler).

Well then just grab the mobile feat and call it a day. Good catch.

[Citan]

Hi all hi OP!

Well then just grab the mobile feat and call it a day. Good catch.
I'll go with that too, seems really the best way (since OP's character is also against any and every form of magic).
With alternative being grabbing just one level of Rogue IF OP's character likes all Grapple/Shove based tactics and take a second level only if he feels he would need the bonus action Dash every other round.

As long as Dash as bonus action is only something occasional, it's better to go straight for all Monk greatness (Evasion, wall running, Diamond Soul).

[CTurbo]

I'm usually all for straight classes and almost always prefer them to multiclasses. I actually HATE how nearly every reply to every "help me build/optimize me character" post is filled with "you must multiclass" replies.

But I do really like the synergy between the Monk and 3-5 levels of Scout Rogue. I know by RAW and RAI, sneak damage does not work unarmed, but I know that as a DM, I would allow sneak damage to work with unarmed strikes as long as all the other criteria is met, but ONLY on a Monk with a small Rogue dip, not on a Rogue with a small Monk dip.

Specifically, what I want to do, is build an Aarakocra Monk with 3 levels of Scout and the Mobile feat. This character could literally fly away with it's reaction when an enemy ends it's turn next to it.


Anyway, straight Monk would be great. Mobile is a great feat for a Monk. You can't go wrong sticking to that recipe, but if you want what a few levels of Rogue would give you, Scout would be great too.

[Zetram]

I'm usually all for straight classes and almost always prefer them to multiclasses. I actually HATE how nearly every reply to every "help me build/optimize me character" post is filled with "you must multiclass" replies.

But I do really like the synergy between the Monk and 3-5 levels of Scout Rogue. I know by RAW and RAI, sneak damage does not work unarmed, but I know that as a DM, I would allow sneak damage to work with unarmed strikes as long as all the other criteria is met, but ONLY on a Monk with a small Rogue dip, not on a Rogue with a small Monk dip.

Specifically, what I want to do, is build an Aarakocra Monk with 3 levels of Scout and the Mobile feat. This character could literally fly away with it's reaction when an enemy ends it's turn next to it.


Anyway, straight Monk would be great. Mobile is a great feat for a Monk. You can't go wrong sticking to that recipe, but if you want what a few levels of Rogue would give you, Scout would be great too.

That's a cool concept!

You know, I never even thought of asking my DM to allow sneak attack w/ unarmed strikes :P

[Atavis]

That's a cool concept!

You know, I never even thought of asking my DM to allow sneak attack w/ unarmed strikes :P

Or ask for an item that improves unarmed attacks and counts as a finesse weapon; aka hand wraps, gauntlets, cestus, knuckle dusters, etc.

[1ring42]

Actually depending on your gm you could theoretically sneak with an unarmed strike, because as per sage advice an unarmed strike is a melee weapon attack and the monks martial arts feature makes everything they use mechanically indistinguishable from a finesse weapon.