Angry Person Kills a Lot of People Movies

[5crownik007]

You know the ones. Kill Bill, John Wick, Hardcore Henry.
We follow our deuteragonist on their anger fueled rampage and they utterly delete legions of the BBEG's minions and eventually face down the BBEG in a duel.

Everyone has one that they love, which one is yours?
It doesn't necessarily have to be limited to movies either. Flash animations(madness combat), Anime, etc are all fair play.

Which is your favourite?

[No brains]

Interesting you bring up madness combat. Episode 11 should be out soon.

[Saintheart]

Pretty much every first person shooter video game in existence is this. :smallbiggrin:

[ben-zayb]

Oldboy (the 2003 adaptation, not the garbage with Thanos and Wanda)
Desperado
Machete
Sin City

[Lord Raziere]

Asura's Wrath. its basically this in a nutshell. its kind of a videogame, but with how many cutscenes and QTE's are in it, thats stretching the definition of "game."

[Blackhawk748]

Come on, no one mentioned Commando?

[Forum Explorer]

Pretty much every first person shooter video game in existence is this. :smallbiggrin:

Which brings up my favorite:

the recent Doom reboot. It's incredible and the most satisfying first person shooter since Space Marine.

[The Glyphstone]

I loved Machete, because it was everything this genre embraces while still managing to not take itself seriously. Everything is a threadbare excuse for the most over-the-top violence possible, without trying to be some sort of grim drama.

Good thing they didn't make a sequel that tried to turn Machete into some sort of Mexican James Bond knockoff, because that would have been awful.

[Rater202]

Good thing they didn't make a sequel that tried to turn Machete into some sort of Mexican James Bond knockoff, because that would have been awful.

I hate to break it to you, but he was already that.

Machete Cortez from Machete and Machete Cortez from Spy Kids are explicitly the same character. (http://remezcla.com/film/danny-trejo-machete-brisk-interview/)
Machete Cortez in Machete is what Machete Cortez in Spy Kids does when he’s not taking care of the kids.

***

Well I think if you look, it’s like Machete was…wait, hold on…[he takes a sip of Brisk] Machete the character was actually the first Machete. After he was done being Machete Machete, he became Uncle Machete in Spy Kids. That’s Brisk, baby!

[The Glyphstone]

I hate to break it to you, but he was already that.

Machete Cortez from Machete and Machete Cortez from Spy Kids are explicitly the same character. (http://remezcla.com/film/danny-trejo-machete-brisk-interview/)

Yeah, but that's different. I'll figure out why later.

[Rodin]

Also from videogames: Max Payne. Undercover cop goes on rampage through the mob and eventually moves up to the private army of a pharmaceutical magnate.

Technically, there was a movie, but I wouldn't recommend watching it unless you hate yourself.

[BWR]

Doom 2016 is really good, but it has some stiff competition from Jedi Academy - sure, the graphics are less impressive and there isn't the visceral joy of blood and gore you get from Doom, but you get a lightsaber that cuts people into pieces with little effort (unlike that "Force Unleashed" abomination"), Force powers that are really useful and tons stormtroopers to slaughter.

[5crownik007]

Jedi Academy was probably one of the first games I played. I still have it today.

Though I do have to mention, these medias aren't storyless. To fit the criteria, our main character has to be a deuteragonist on a specifically anger fueled killing spree with justification. Note, you personally don't have to agree with the retribution, there just has to be a reason.

We're not just talking about mindless violence, though DOOM certainly fits the criteria for Angry Person Killing Spree game.

A lot of shooters are disqualified because of this. CODs 1-4 are disqualified for the most part as our main characters are acting on orders and not out of personal vendetta.

Spec Ops: The Line(technically a third person shooter) definitely doesn't fit the criteria and that game mostly revolves around violence. No spoilers for those who haven't played but it does have a deeper story.

Hotline Miami becomes this in the third act of the story.

[Forum Explorer]

Jedi Academy was probably one of the first games I played. I still have it today.

Though I do have to mention, these medias aren't storyless. To fit the criteria, our main character has to be a deuteragonist on a specifically anger fueled killing spree with justification. Note, you personally don't have to agree with the retribution, there just has to be a reason.

We're not just talking about mindless violence, though DOOM certainly fits the criteria for Angry Person Killing Spree game.

A lot of shooters are disqualified because of this. CODs 1-4 are disqualified for the most part as our main characters are acting on orders and not out of personal vendetta.

Spec Ops: The Line(technically a third person shooter) definitely doesn't fit the criteria and that game mostly revolves around violence. No spoilers for those who haven't played but it does have a deeper story.

Hotline Miami becomes this in the third act of the story.

You know, now I'm curious if Space Marine would count as an Angry Person Killing Spree game. I mean, yeah, the Space Marine is there under orders. But he just takes the whole invasion so personally.

[ben-zayb]

I just realized...

without the deuteragonist requirement, wouldn't this classification include revenge-driven slashers like Friday the 13th and Scream?

[gomipile]

You know the ones. Kill Bill, John Wick, Hardcore Henry.
We follow our deuteragonist on their anger fueled rampage and they utterly delete legions of the BBEG's minions and eventually face down the BBEG in a duel.



deuteragonist

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

[ben-zayb]

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

What? John Wick's dog is definitely the protagonist of that movie. Too bad the poor hero died near the start of the film.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

Shoot 'em up is pretty great, exactly what is says on the tin.

Hobo with a shotgun disappoints in this department.

[BWR]

Jedi Academy was probably one of the first games I played. I still have it today.

Though I do have to mention, these medias aren't storyless. To fit the criteria, our main character has to be a deuteragonist on a specifically anger fueled killing spree with justification. Note, you personally don't have to agree with the retribution, there just has to be a reason.

We're not just talking about mindless violence, though DOOM certainly fits the criteria for Angry Person Killing Spree game.


There's a 'plot' in DOOM? I suppose that explains those breathy noises I hear when I fall asleep before the action starts up again.

[LibraryOgre]

Still the best. (https://xkcd.com/311/)

[The Glyphstone]

Still the best. (https://xkcd.com/311/)

Doesn't that comic basically describe The Raid?

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also from videogames: Max Payne. Undercover cop goes on rampage through the mob and eventually moves up to the private army of a pharmaceutical magnate.

Technically, there was a movie, but I wouldn't recommend watching it unless you really hate yourself.

Fixed that for you.

Surprisingly, the Hulk doesn't fit into this genre. You'd think he'd be the (giant-sized) poster boy.

[Rater202]

Fixed that for you.

Surprisingly, the Hulk doesn't fit into this genre. You'd think he'd be the (giant-sized) poster boy.

The Hulk is as much the embodiment of Banner's inner-child as he isBanner's ungodly amounts of repressed rage.

"Hulk not want to hurt people, which combine with how hulk instinctively think in math mean hulk know exactly how hard to smash tank without smash mean-man inside tank."

Hulk's a bro. There was one issue where Spider-Man picked a fight with the hulk because he'd been made to believe that Marry Jane had been killed and wasn't taking it well.

Hulk's response, upon figuring out why he'd been attacked out of nowhere, was, and I quote: "Bug-Man's wife dead? Hulk's wife died, too. Hulk Sorry."

During Wolrd War Hulk, the Green Scar, a more mature personality deviated from the normal hulk, attempted to gain revenge on the Illuminati for both sending him into space in the first place and for the ship they used being defective and destroying a good chunk of the planet he was on(and his new love and a lot of his friends) just when he was happy for once.

When he got to Professor X... He gave him a pass. Because the Hulk saw the cemetery where all of the innocent Former-Mutants who were murdered by Stryker after M-Day for the crime of having once been Mutants, including many, many students at the Xavier school, were buried and the Hulk was convinced that Xavier had clearly suffered the same way the Hulk had suffered and that anything else he could do to Xavier wouldn't be justice but pointless cruelty.

(The same story had Hulk's rage be replaced, for a brief moment, by palpable grief when he found out that Captain America had been killed in the Civil War.)

[Florian]

I think Deadpool (1) counts as this. Hilarious movie.

[HandofShadows]

During Wolrd War Hulk, the Green Scar, a more mature personality deviated from the normal hulk, attempted to gain revenge on the Illuminati for both sending him into space in the first place and for the ship they used being defective and destroying a good chunk of the planet he was on(and his new love and a lot of his friends) just when he was happy for once.

Of course it turned out that the ship hadn't been defective..... :smalleek:

[Rater202]

Of course it turned out that the ship hadn't been defective.....: smalleek:

I mean, even then the Illuminati didn't even bother asking Banner if they could shoot him into space and ignored strong evidence that the Hulk was only a problem if people didn't leave him the hell alone(90% of the Hulk's rampages were caused by Ross deliberatly pissing him off. Send Ross to space god damn it.)

and then they insisted that they were entirely blameless even though it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't sent him tospace in the first place...

The only one who took responsibility for it was Charles Xavier and he wasn't even there when they decided to send him to space.

[tyckspoon]

I think Deadpool (1) counts as this. Hilarious movie.

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought of. Dude gets done wrong, goes on a murder spree through the entire organization that wronged him.

[Magic_Hat]

We follow our deuteragonist on their anger fueled rampage...

:smallconfused: Do you mean protagonist? Protagonist is the main character, and deuteragonist is the first supporting character/sidekick. The Robin to our Batman.


I think Deadpool (1) counts as this. Hilarious movie.

The sequel as well. There's that opening montage of the title character traveling the world killing people as Dolly Parton plays.

[Wraith]

Though I haven't seen it and it's only on my list of Things To Do, Hardcore Henry is a very interesting version of the 'vengeful rampage' movie because - as well as the crazy stunts and puddle deep justification where there ought to be plot - it's shown in First Person Perspective.

I've only ever seen one other movie do that - a 1940's monochrome "gumshoe" mystery who name I don't remember - but I really enjoyed the concept because it was done extremely well to justify the mystique, and some of the practical effects (like when the camera looked into a "mirror" to see the protagonist looking back) were very clever.

[JeenLeen]

Despite generally not liking action movies, I did enjoy Cranked. 3-5 beers when it started probably helped.
Though I think XKCD's River Tam idea is better. (https://xkcd.com/311/)

It's a big more plot heavy, but definitely angry dude(s) getting revenge: Inglorious Basterds is one I rather liked.

[HandofShadows]

I mean, even then the Illuminati didn't even bother asking Banner if they could shoot him into space and ignored strong evidence that the Hulk was only a problem if people didn't leave him the hell alone(90% of the Hulk's rampages were caused by Ross deliberatly pissing him off. Send Ross to space god damn it.)

and then they insisted that they were entirely blameless even though it wouldn't have happened if they hadn't sent him tospace in the first place...

Banner always said he wanted to be left alone and the fact is no one was EVER going to leave him alone on Earth Ross or no Ross. And the detonation of the ship was NOT the Illuminati's fault. That was the act of Red King loyalist and was allowed to happen by one of the Hulk's allies who saw what was happening and did nothing to stop it or even tell anyone. Last, the Hulk wasn't so mad about being shot into space, but about the explosion that killed everyone. The Hulk was blaming and attacking people for a crime they did not commit.

[5crownik007]

That word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

Dammit.

Words cannot express the shame I feel in myself. I don't know where the hell I heard it but I was under the impression of deuteragonist having a similar meaning to antihero.

I feel very stupid.

[Magic_Hat]

Charles Bronson Murders Everyone! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRAT1-c7q98)

Go ahead and click the link. It'll change your life. Maybe not for the better though.

[The Glyphstone]

You have to appreciate the effort that goes into lazy special effects when the people getting machine-gunned don't even bother with squib packets. They just flail their arms and lie down on the ground.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It's not a movie, but catching the start of Samurai Jack last night on CN makes it pretty clear that he fits the descriptor as well.

[Velaryon]

Technically, there was a movie, but I wouldn't recommend watching it unless you hate yourself.

That's pretty much the standard advice when it comes to film adaptations of video games. There are a couple of exceptions, but the vast majority are irredeemably awful.

[Cheesegear]

This year, Peppermint came out with Jennifer Garner (remember when Alias was thing?).

It's a terrible movie with no plot. But, within the Death Wish (aka; Sub/Urban Vigilante) genre, it's actually not even bad, even with a female lead. It even advertised itself as 'female John Wick', in a way that Atomic Blonde failed to do. Certainly better than the real, actual Death Wish remake that came out this year with Bruce Willis. :smallyuk:

Also, Man on Fire, and The Equaliser.

EDIT: I remember having this conversation a year or so ago. I forget what the thread was called. So I can't Google what I said back then. :smallfrown:

[comicshorse]

Well there is 'The Punisher'

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098141/?ref_=nv_sr_3

And of course 'The Punisher'

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0330793/?ref_=tt_rec_tt

And not forgetting 'The Punisher'

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5675620/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[Wraith]

Well there is 'The Punisher'

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098141/?ref_=nv_sr_3

And of course 'The Punisher'

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0330793/?ref_=tt_rec_tt

And not forgetting 'The Punisher'

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5675620/?ref_=nv_sr_1

Don't forget The Punisher (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0450314/?ref_=nv_sr_1), too!

Nobody has mentioned Falling Down (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/) yet? Man, I'm old.... But then, It's not really the same sort of "angry man kills everyone" as John Wick, as the BBEG that the protagonist duels at the end is a police officer that has been justifiably chasing a maniac around town all day.

And I'll just say it: Dredd (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1343727/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) is one of m favourite movies of all time, mindless action shooter or not.

[Knaight]

It's not a movie, but catching the start of Samurai Jack last night on CN makes it pretty clear that he fits the descriptor as well.

As does Afro Samurai, for that matter.

[5crownik007]

And I'll just say it: Dredd (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1343727/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) is one of m favourite movies of all time, mindless action shooter or not.

"Maw Maw is not the law. I am the law."

When I started this thread, I actually had trouble remembering a lot of these films and shows that I knew would fit in this category. Dredd is a lot of fun.

Samurai Jack's last season fits in with this for sure and it's absolutely awesome. Genndy Tartakovsky really makes the best everything.

[Scarlet Knight]

I remember the Lone Wolf and Cub movies on Samurai Theater.

[Tyndmyr]

Kung Fury.

If you've not watched it, it's pretty much the perfect modern rendition of the 80's trope. And yes, you should go watch it right now.

[comicshorse]

Chan- wook Park's 'Vengeance' trilogy. 'Sympathy for Mr Vengeance', Oldboy' and 'Lady Vengeance'

[Pheldagriff]

hardcore henry was quite enjoyable and blended action movie with first-person-shooter

[GloatingSwine]

Banner always said he wanted to be left alone and the fact is no one was EVER going to leave him alone on Earth Ross or no Ross. And the detonation of the ship was NOT the Illuminati's fault. That was the act of Red King loyalist and was allowed to happen by one of the Hulk's allies who saw what was happening and did nothing to stop it or even tell anyone. Last, the Hulk wasn't so mad about being shot into space, but about the explosion that killed everyone. The Hulk was blaming and attacking people for a crime they did not commit.

On the other hand, they did trick Banner into a ship and fling him off into space because they just didn't want to deal with the Hulk, and they specifically did that because they figured that if they asked him to go along with it first they wouldn't then be able to trick him into doing it later.

And they were doing this to an ostensible ally.

And none of them really even felt bad about it.

And they keep doing similar things. Like when the Phoenix Force is coming back to Earth, instead of asking any of the people who have any experience with it they decide that they know best and that the person they think it's coming to should be imprisoned on the moon or executed, despite her not having done anything, because the Phoenix might be dangerous (but isn't always).

(PS the Phoenix Force was coming back to undo the near-genocide of mutants at the hands of one of the Avengers).

[Cheesegear]

Nobody has mentioned Falling Down (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106856/) yet?

Argh. It's so good!
In that vein, would God Bless America from 2017 count?

I don't feel like The Long Kiss Goodnight counts. But people should see it anyway.

[Phhase]

We follow our deuteragonist...

Which is your favourite?

Deuteragonist. (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Deuteragonist) I'm aware I'm at the end of a line of pedants, but I just wanna set the record straight.

[monomer]

Shoot 'em up is pretty great, exactly what is says on the tin.

Hah, yeah, this was my first thought too. Shoot 'em Up is such a stupid movie, and they know it, as parts of it play out like a live-action Bugs Bunny cartoon (and makes many nods to it). I think Clive Owens even winks at the camera at one point when something exceedingly ridiculous happens. They also have Paul Giamatti just completely hamming it up in every scene.

[thorgrim29]

Shoot'em up is a great dumb action movie. Dredd is a great smart action movie. John Wick falls somewhere in the middle... The plot is kind of dumb but the action itself is smart.

[No brains]

Interesting you bring up madness combat. Episode 11 should be out soon.

Update: It got posted today. You can find it on YouTube or Newgrounds.

[Florian]

Hm. I intentionally didn't mention Falling Down and Dredd because both have a very serious socio-political core and could also work without the killings. (S**t, I don't want to know how often I've watched Dredd by now..)

[JoshL]

Yeah, i definitely don't think Falling Down really counts here.
He doesn't actually kill a lot of people (does he actually kill anyone?). Also, as the audience you're supposed to figure out that he's the bad guy long before he does.
one of my favorite movies though. Great score by James Newton Howard as well!

I think God Bless America is a little closer to the mark (and a fantastic film as well). Has anyone mentioned Léon/The Professional yet? Particularly the end!

[comicshorse]

Yeah, i definitely don't think Falling Down really counts here.
He doesn't actually kill a lot of people (does he actually kill anyone?). Also, as the audience you're supposed to figure out that he's the bad guy long before he does.
one of my favorite movies though. Great score by James Newton Howard as well!




I think the only person he kills is the neo nazi owner of the Army surplus shop

[Lemmy]

John Wick is probably my favorite these days...

I haven't watched the Death Wish remake, but I'm sure it fits the bill. But I have no ide how good or bad it is.

[chainer1216]

The Crow
The Punisher (thomas jane)
Shoot 'Em Up

And video game wise, Asura's Wrath. Then for anime, Berserk.

[Wraith]

Yeah, i definitely don't think Falling Down really counts here.

You're mostly right, it's not the orgy of blood and bodies that usually comes with the 'revenge' film, but I think in every other way its a good example. It's an angry man on a rampage, destroying and maiming as he goes, and as comicshorse pointed out at least two people die in the film. :smalltongue:


The Crow

I love that movie. Enough to make me go out and buy the comic book, which was also great. Enough, in fact, to make me go out and buy all 3 of the sequels, which was not as great....

[chainer1216]

love that movie. Enough to make me go out and buy the comic book, which was also great. Enough, in fact, to make me go out and buy all 3 of the sequels, which was not as great....

I honestly enjoyed 2 and 3.

4 was a bad trip though.

[comicshorse]

The Brave One

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0476964/?ref_=nv_sr_1

[tomandtish]

Kung Fury.

If you've not watched it, it's pretty much the perfect modern rendition of the 80's trope. And yes, you should go watch it right now.

Kung Fury 2 is allegedly being made, and will include Arnold Schwarzenegger.

[Lizard Lord]

It has acquired to me that I should watch more of these, because now that I think about it I haven't watched very many but I liked all the ones I can think of having watched. My favorite would be Kill Bill with Hardcore Henry taking second place. John Wick is among those I haven't seen.

[Raimun]

There are only two movies that I can recommend for this thread:

The Killer (1989) and Hard Boiled (1992). Both by the one and only John Woo. Nothing else comes even close.

Because I've watched these two movies, I wasn't that impressed with, for example, John Wick and some similar modern movies, since they were hyped out by some reviews to be like modern day John Woo-movies. I mean, from my perspective, hardly anyone dies in John Wick. I guess I would have liked John Wick way better without that particular hype.

[Lacuna Caster]

And I'll just say it: Dredd (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1343727/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1) is one of m favourite movies of all time, mindless action shooter or not.

Samurai Jack's last season fits in with this for sure and it's absolutely awesome. Genndy Tartakovsky really makes the best everything.

Chan-wook Park's 'Vengeance' trilogy. 'Sympathy for Mr Vengeance', Oldboy' and 'Lady Vengeance'

Shoot'em up is a great dumb action movie. Dredd is a great smart action movie. John Wick falls somewhere in the middle... The plot is kind of dumb but the action itself is smart.

And video game wise, Asura's Wrath. Then for anime, Berserk.
The best (whereby I mean 'most well-made') part of Berserk is actually the buildup to "angry person kills a lot of people". Though I suppose, even pre-eclipse, Guts is generally angry and does kill a lot of people.

Dredd is anything but a mindless action shooter, and would probably get my vote. The Villainess might be worth watching if you enjoyed the Vengeance trilogy (and the opening is quite similar to Hardcore Henry.) The last season of Samurai Jack was something of a disappointment (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?514422-Samurai-Jack-THE-FOOLISH-SAMURAI-WARRIOR-RETURNS!&p=22038975&viewfull=1#post22038975) to me, though.

[gomipile]

There are only two movies that I can recommend for this thread:

The Killer (1989) and Hard Boiled (1992). Both by the one and only John Woo. Nothing else comes even close.

Because I've watched these two movies, I wasn't that impressed with, for example, John Wick and some similar modern movies, since they were hyped out by some reviews to be like modern day John Woo-movies. I mean, from my perspective, hardly anyone dies in John Wick. I guess I would have liked John Wick way better without that particular hype.

Or you could, you know, appreciate the movie for what it is instead of holding third party comparisons against it. It's 2019. I would have thought that by now everyone learns that hype and quality are often not correlated before they hit adulthood.

I enjoy John Woo movies. I enjoyed John Wick. Their styles have some noticeable differences, and I enjoy each for what they are.

Maybe in a few more years you can go back to some of the films you've allowed to be tainted by hype and watch them on their own merits to see if they fit your future tastes.

Edit: Oh, and since you mentioned number of deaths, I'm reminded of this video:



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoO-w7Z7Yv4

[Rogar Demonblud]

And that's just the first movie.

In the name of gender balance, I should mention the two films titled (in English) Lady Snowblood and Love Song of Vengeance. Most of you probably know the remakes Tarantino did: Kill Bill 1 & 2.

[comicshorse]

There are only two movies that I can recommend for this thread:

The Killer (1989) and Hard Boiled (1992). Both by the one and only John Woo. Nothing else comes even close.

Because I've watched these two movies, I wasn't that impressed with, for example, John Wick and some similar modern movies, since they were hyped out by some reviews to be like modern day John Woo-movies. I mean, from my perspective, hardly anyone dies in John Wick. I guess I would have liked John Wick way better without that particular hype.

Number of people killed is a strange bar to judge movies on. I mean Arnold Schwarzenegger kills dozens of people in 'Commando' but it is shot with so little imagination or sense against opponents that couldn't hit the ground they're standing on that it's just boring.

Presuming you've seen the other John Woo heroic bloodshed movies you might try 'Equilibrium' (for sci-fi gun kata) and Ringo Lam's 'City on Fire' (which 'Reservoir Dogs' was based on) and 'Hot Shots Part Deux' which at one part in the movie includes its own Kill Counter :smallsmile: (OK I may be being sarcastic with the last one)

[Knaight]

I'll second Equilibrium. It's a deeply stupid movie in a lot of ways, but it's just so enjoyable - and the action choreography is consistently on point.

[tomandtish]

There are only two movies that I can recommend for this thread:

The Killer (1989) and Hard Boiled (1992). Both by the one and only John Woo. Nothing else comes even close.

Because I've watched these two movies, I wasn't that impressed with, for example, John Wick and some similar modern movies, since they were hyped out by some reviews to be like modern day John Woo-movies. I mean, from my perspective, hardly anyone dies in John Wick. I guess I would have liked John Wick way better without that particular hype.

As noted above, 77 people are killed by John in the first John Wick film (https://www.visu.info/john-wick-kill-count). And 128 are killed by him in the second (https://www.visu.info/john-wick-2-kill-count). That doesn't count deaths caused by others. That's a pretty tough designation of "hardly anyone".

I never really got into John Woo because he's too in love with slow motion. People can't even get out of a car without it taking a minute.

[Rodin]

I'll second Equilibrium. It's a deeply stupid movie in a lot of ways, but it's just so enjoyable - and the action choreography is consistently on point.

Gun kata is actually quite clever if you think about it.

Rule 1: Bad guys with a machine gun never ever hit a main character who is in the open and completely undefended.

Rule 2: When bad guys do hit someone, they've typically taken cover and it's in the middle of a long dramatic gunfight.

So, to win every Hollywood gunfight ever, you simply walk out into the middle of the room and shoot everybody as quickly as you can to minimize length and drama. Logic!

[The Glyphstone]

Gun kata is actually quite clever if you think about it.

Rule 1: Bad guys with a machine gun never ever hit a main character who is in the open and completely undefended.

Rule 2: When bad guys do hit someone, they've typically taken cover and it's in the middle of a long dramatic gunfight.

So, to win every Hollywood gunfight ever, you simply walk out into the middle of the room and shoot everybody as quickly as you can to minimize length and drama. Logic!

So it's not about abusing mathematics, it's abusing metafictional requirements? Maybe we should call it Trope-Fu instead.

[Kato]

There are not enough media where 4th wall breakers properly take advantage of their skills. It's almost always used for laughs but imagine the possibilities of being aware and abusing tropes.
I mean, I know it happens but it's still underutilized.

Edit: yes, I know this forum is very much the wrong place to voice this complaint. But Mr Burlew is one of the few people who do it.

[Lord Raziere]

There are not enough media where 4th wall breakers properly take advantage of their skills. It's almost always used for laughs but imagine the possibilities of being aware and abusing tropes.
I mean, I know it happens but it's still underutilized.

Edit: yes, I know this forum is very much the wrong place to voice this complaint. But Mr Burlew is one of the few people who do it.

Ah, but with being used more tactically also invites fourth wall breaking to use more seriously. and thats when the existential horror of oh my god none of us are real starts setting in and you start getting things like Deadpool Kills The Marvel Universe, or Genocide Route Undertale.

yes there is indeed an alternate world comic book series where Deadpool goes full serious and just kills everything including the writer. I haven't read it, but it exists.

[Rater202]

There are not enough media where 4th wall breakers properly take advantage of their skills. It's almost always used for laughs but imagine the possibilities of being aware and abusing tropes.
I mean, I know it happens but it's still underutilized.

Edit: yes, I know this forum is very much the wrong place to voice this complaint. But Mr Burlew is one of the few people who do it.

You should read Unbelievable Gwenpool.

It was written by the guy who wrote Doctor McNinja and it honestly treats fourth wall breaking very seriously.

[Knaight]

Gun kata is actually quite clever if you think about it.

Rule 1: Bad guys with a machine gun never ever hit a main character who is in the open and completely undefended.

Rule 2: When bad guys do hit someone, they've typically taken cover and it's in the middle of a long dramatic gunfight.

So, to win every Hollywood gunfight ever, you simply walk out into the middle of the room and shoot everybody as quickly as you can to minimize length and drama. Logic!

Gun kata is probably the single dumbest thing about the setting, but given the fight scenes that come out of it I still adore it. Plus it really sets the big dumb fun tone early.

[DomaDoma]

Braveheart is probably the closest thing to a movie of this genre which I liked. It was mind-blowing when I was fifteen, too - probably still reverberating through my life to this day. Last time I saw it, it seemed like nothing more than a giant heap of hero's-journey cliches, but then that was when I was twenty. Twenty-year-old me is far too despondent and jaded to be trusted on matters of what is and isn't meaningful and I should probably give it another go. At the very least, I'll be exposed to that glorious soundtrack in all its original context.

[Kato]

Ah, but with being used more tactically also invites fourth wall breaking to use more seriously. and thats when the existential horror of oh my god none of us are real starts setting in and you start getting things like Deadpool Kills The Marvel Universe, or Genocide Route Undertale.

yes there is indeed an alternate world comic book series where Deadpool goes full serious and just kills everything including the writer. I haven't read it, but it exists.
Yes, I know the DP story line but I don't see how the knowledge of tropes must lead to mass genocide. I feel like there are quite a few steps in between that don't have to be taken.


You should read Unbelievable Gwenpool.

It was written by the guy who wrote Doctor McNinja and it honestly treats fourth wall breaking very seriously.

I know bits and pieces of her story. And while she at times does what I mean, I still feel most often it's too strange /over the top.

[Rater202]

I know bits and pieces of her story. And while she at times does what I mean, I still feel most often it's too strange /over the top.

I mean, she only gets the powers after she stops to consider that maybe she's not actually anymore "real" than the comic book characters are(And people who find out about her powers tend to not believe her--Doctor Doom assumes she's a sorceress and Kid Omega thinks she's a low grade reality warper)

The final arc of the series is just an exploration of the existential angst that comes from knowing that you're a character in a fictional work and that if you're not entertaining you could just vanish into limbo.

And the point is that she does consistently abuse her ability to interact with the medium. It's basically her entire fighting style once she gets to it.

[Tyndmyr]

Gun kata is actually quite clever if you think about it.

Rule 1: Bad guys with a machine gun never ever hit a main character who is in the open and completely undefended.

Rule 2: When bad guys do hit someone, they've typically taken cover and it's in the middle of a long dramatic gunfight.

So, to win every Hollywood gunfight ever, you simply walk out into the middle of the room and shoot everybody as quickly as you can to minimize length and drama. Logic!

While it's heavily fictionalized, it does borrow from real life in some respects. For instance, the disarm maneuvers that relied on positioning arms so the guns couldn't be pointed at the disarmer is largely what RL martial arts employ. Likewise, staying out of likely pathways of bullets and engaging the enemy as rapidly as possible is pretty standard doctrine. It doesn't lead to standing in the center of an open room, but hey, that's the fictionalized part.

[Raimun]

Watching Chow Yun-Fat shoot people in a film by John Woo is a sight to behold.

If you ask me, it can't get any better when it comes to action movies.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes, I know the DP story line but I don't see how the knowledge of tropes must lead to mass genocide. I feel like there are quite a few steps in between that don't have to be taken.


Its not the knowledge of tropes itself, yes, I agree.

its the fact that you realize they apply to your world. if even the most basic trope of "protagonist" applies, then that means the story and therefore the world revolves around that person. everyone else automatically becomes less important. the protagonist realizes this? then they can do whatever they want, because they're the main character and are thus set above the rest of the world as long as the trope applies. everyone starts becoming less real, less of a person in comparison to that person, and the leads to a narcissistic worldview at best, a sociopathic one at worst. because if no one really matters except you- consequences don't really matter and thus the person does whatever they want without regard for law or rules because those laws and rules are less important than the protagonist.

because like or not, we already tell stories about ourselves in the real world, making our own little narratives in our head. as we grow up, these narratives are challenged and are modified to more closely match reality. we realize we're not the most important person in the world, we realize that there are consequences to our actions and that we must be responsible and so on. We realize that there is no narrative but the one we make and thus we are free.

but in a world where such narrative power applies? where you can somehow REALIZE and KNOW your place in the story of your world? that can be terrifying, much like a world where fate exists- there is not much difference between fate and a narrative, as often when people designate that something about themselves is going to happen in their narrative, that its their "destiny". Thus fate and narrative causality are often one and the same.

A villain who realizes that they are a villain in their story and that they are supposed to lose as villains often do- well they become depressed and break down, unable to put effort into anything as they realize their inevitable downfall draws closer.

A mook who realizes they're a mook and that they cannot change it, similarly gives up on life. knowing they are just there to die against the real hero of the story, they become fatalistic and impulsive, figuring that nothing they will do will matter anyways.

A red shirt similarly becomes depressed when they realize they are just there to make the hero look better by dying, a sidekick becoming cynical as they know they'll never outshine the hero. the damsel becoming bitter as she realizes that she is naught but a love interest for somebody else. Thus with narrative power does the protagonist suck all the importance out of all others. lock people into one future, and you take it away from them. The hero in their knowledge that they are literally the most important being in existence, realizes that they are not just hero, but god. and in godhood, they realize they can do anything and get away with it, thus they are corrupted by their power and begin killing and destroying just because they can- until existence ends.

now you can write a story where the people defy all these roles, exploit the tropes to become something else and thus save the world from the hero inevitably going mad with power, yes. but it implies that the narrative wasn't all that important or powerful in the first place if it can be defied and exploited. or if it is powerful and everyone has protagonism to a degree, then....really no one does, and you get this weird place thats like reality but you can do weird narrative based hacks and abuses (such as bringing up an enemies project or plan then saying "what could possibly go wrong?"- thus it automatically foils their plans because then narrative/fate is obliged to to SHOW how it goes wrong and thus everyone just says that to each other constantly to screw each other over, just as one abusive example) and then really whats your story about then? because everyone in it keeps abusing and pulling the narrative this way and that and you'll probably lose focus if you don't do it well.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It sounds like the first step to break that is to not take Protagonist Centered Morality and crank it until it's over 9000.

[Lord Raziere]

It sounds like the first step to break that is to not take Protagonist Centered Morality and crank it until it's over 9000.

ah but then, the narrative is still fate.

instead of one person winning, no one does. the protagonist is as bound to the story as anyone else. thus it functionally becomes a defy fate story, only there is a face to fate: the author. for if life is a story, and tropes are fate, then someone must be writing it.

....but this capacity to defy the narrative/fate is only because the writer is "allowing" them to. thus on a meta-narrative level, they are still bound by what the writer wants to happen. they aren't real after all. you can make a fake author villain for them to defy and defeat, but you, the real author is still ultimately in control no matter what you do. if the characters are truly 4th wall aware, then they are perfectly aware that the real author isn't within their story to defeat. bit of a catch 22.

thus the only way for true escape from fate, is the Homestuck solution of the the protagonists exiting the story to be forever made by fan fiction. if you want to go that far.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

They could do stuff so weird that the writer doesn't know how to continue, gets writer's block and never finishes the book? A bit of a self defeating story?

[Lord Raziere]

They could do stuff so weird that the writer doesn't know how to continue, gets writer's block and never finishes the book? A bit of a self defeating story?

perhaps?

Maybe?

I dunno, maybe I'm taking it too seriously.

you don't like my ideas, make narrative fate as strong or as weak as you need it for the story.

depends on your view of fate and free will. personally I'm a believer in free will, so I'd probably personally do something that leans towards that but with just enough challenge to make it something worth overcoming.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

perhaps?

Maybe?

I dunno, maybe I'm taking it too seriously.

you don't like my ideas, make narrative fate as strong or as weak as you need it for the story.

depends on your view of fate and free will. personally I'm a believer in free will, so I'd probably personally do something that leans towards that but with just enough challenge to make it something worth overcoming.

But fate and free will are entirely different things in a story context than in the real world. In the real world they're at best a tool used to make narrative sense of a non-narrative world. They're also not mutually exclusive, but almost more like two sides of the same coin. If the object labeled me is really using internal processes to make certain decisions than we can expect me to have patterns to those decisions, a certain consistency. This means that the behavior of me could be modeled and at least up to a point predicted. If we call the ability to have complex reactions to outside influences based on internal processes free will and the ability to be predicted fate, because those are the closest things we have to an actual description of free will and fate, than they are linked. The only way to not have a fate is to act completely and objectively random, and randomness excludes any definition of personality and will.

When thought experiments always stop making sense at one point or another you're usually dealing with an inconsistency in the basic theory. In this case we're trying to make sense of a fulfilling narrative about completely breaking free of the very concept of a narrative. That's like designing a cage called freedom that will kidnap animals from the zoo and carry them around outside. There's something fundamentally wrong about it. Of course, this makes it a good subject for fiction, just don't expect to find any proper solutions to the paradoxes it creates.

[Psyren]

+1 Equilibrium, easily my favorite example of this trope.