Hellbred and Inherited Templates

[BowStreetRunner]

According to the Fiendish Codex II, page 77, members of the Hellbred race are created when "The lords of good and justice, suspicious that the condemned soul merely seeks escape for selfish reasons, instead reincarnate the individual to give him one last chance at salvation." There does not appear to be any explicit rule as to whether inherited templates may be applied to a Hellbred character, so it would seem to be a DM judgement call.

What would you rule as a DM if a player wanted to start a Hellbred character with an inherited template? The two under consideration in this instance are Phrenic Creatures from EPH and Draconic Creature from RotD. However, I'd be interested to hear any insights relating to other inherited templates, as many of them represent slightly different sorts of 'inheritance'.

[Doctor Awkward]

Why would you assume hellbreds can't have inherited templates? Nothing in their racial entry excludes them.

[PrismCat21]

Why would you assume hellbreds can't have inherited templates? Nothing in their racial entry excludes them.

And what would they be inherited from? Hellbred doesn't care about what you were before or from what you descended from. It's an entirely new creature with nothing carrying over of what it was before.
"Nothing in their racial entry excludes them." Yeah, OP said as much. He's asking for opinions and insight.

[Doctor Awkward]

And what would they be inherited from?

Their parents. Whatever couple gives birth to them when they get reincarnated.

[The Glyphstone]

Do they not get reincarnated as adults? I never got the impression Hellbred were reincarnated the 'slow way', rather that it was a transformative rebirth.

[XionUnborn01]

I'd probably say no unless there's a compelling argument via some sort of backstory from the player though even then I'd be hard to sway.

Hellbred appear to me to be souls put into completely new and reformed bodies, basically spit onto a plane of existance fully formed to try and live a life of Good.

I dont know how they would get an inherited template because they aren't birthed but are instead made.

[Doctor Awkward]

They are "reborn" in the the Scourging, which alters and twists their body into the racial traits presented in the Fiendish Codex II.

Why can't they keep templates that were part of them before this change? I.E.: Phrenic human is a terrible person. Phrenic human dies in battle and reflects on how poorly he lived his life. Gods choose him to be a hellbred. Phrenic human undergoes the Scourging and comes out Phrenic hellbred.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Inherited templates could also be a result of whatever being(s) reincarnated him. The hellbred was a follower of Sardior who was a bit too self-serving to be Neutral, but he pulled an alignment switcheroo when he realized at the end that he'd been a selfish scumbag, wasting his life in blind pursuit of his own myopic desires, and genuinely pleaded for salvation and a second chance? Sardior goes to Bahamut and asks for an Aid Another in making him a hellbred, and voila. He's now both draconic and psionic via the templates in question, due to the beings who remade him as a reminder of their mercy.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I would rule "yes" to both. While half-celestial may be by fluff a bit odd I see no reason why the scourging would override inherited templates. Mechanically: while spirit hellbred is a solid race, body is pretty meh compared to what splats gave the core races so I see no reason to nerf either of them for fluff.

[gkathellar]

I’d say yes, not because it does or does or does not make sense (there are arguments either way), but because it’s unlikely to present a problem in game.

[BowStreetRunner]

Their parents. Whatever couple gives birth to them when they get reincarnated.Now this is a thought that had never occurred to me. "Honey, there seems to be something wrong with the baby..." :smalleek: It would be an interesting twist. However, I've always assumed that Hellbred are reincarnated as adults, and there are lots of clues throughout the entry to support this assumption.


They are "reborn" in the the Scourging, which alters and twists their body into the racial traits presented in the Fiendish Codex II.

Why can't they keep templates that were part of them before this change? I.E.: Phrenic human is a terrible person. Phrenic human dies in battle and reflects on how poorly he lived his life. Gods choose him to be a hellbred. Phrenic human undergoes the Scourging and comes out Phrenic hellbred.Being allowed by the powers to keep a template they had in their former life would certainly make sense as one explanation for why they have a template.


Inherited templates could also be a result of whatever being(s) reincarnated him. The hellbred was a follower of Sardior who was a bit too self-serving to be Neutral, but he pulled an alignment switcheroo when he realized at the end that he'd been a selfish scumbag, wasting his life in blind pursuit of his own myopic desires, and genuinely pleaded for salvation and a second chance? Sardior goes to Bahamut and asks for an Aid Another in making him a hellbred, and voila. He's now both draconic and psionic via the templates in question, due to the beings who remade him as a reminder of their mercy.Having the powers grant the template for their own purposes (Bahamut granting the Draconic template, or Lolth interfering with the reincarnation to bestow the Arachnoid template) would make sense as another explanation.

A third might simply be that even among Hellbred there are occasionally some exceptional examples, such as with the Phrenic Template which states that "Phrenic creatures are freaks among their kind".


Mechanically: while spirit hellbred is a solid race, body is pretty meh compared to what splats gave the core races so I see no reason to nerf either of them for fluff.
I’d say yes, not because it does or does or does not make sense (there are arguments either way), but because it’s unlikely to present a problem in game.I think if you compare Hellbred to Spellscale (same ability score modifiers) in this way it really shows that the concept, regardless of fluff, isn't in any way broken.

For a high level Bard character I find Phrenic Hellbred particularly intriguing - layering Telepathy and all of those Psionic abilities on a +6 Cha chassis seems a tempting trade-off for a +2 LA. (Mindsight, anyone?) And since the previous Bard in the party was a Phrenic Spellscale, I didn't want to just recreate the same PC again. Draconic Catfolk is the other major contender so I don't know which way I will actually go. Regardless, I wanted to be prepared to offer some good arguments in case the DM has an issue with inherited templates on a Hellbred if that is the direction I choose.

Thanks for the replies. I felt there were some very good insights mentioned here.