Adapting great wheel cosmology to pathfinder (and a few other questions)

[Zhentarim]

I’m usually too busy to GM games well enough to do more than one at a time (and even then, I try to run them over the summers when I’m less busy), but after looking at other campaign settings, I discovered the great wheel cosmology. As a nihilistic atheist hedonist (yes, I’m aware those philosophical outlooks don’t necessarily have to go together and no, I’m not going to talk about that aspect of my philosophy beyond briefly mentioning it here), I tend to see morality and ethics as just cute constructs that people get worked up over and kill each other sometimes for. That said, the past few years I’ve had a fixation on the alignment chart since I like getting in other people’s heads and seeing how they think. Even if I didn’t later use the information I glean to take advantage of that person and milk them for everything they have, I’m a curious persob and will accept knowledge for knowledge’s sake.

The great wheel cosmology interests me, as does the faerun setting as a whole, because it seems more complex than golorion, and I enjoy distracting myself with fictional complexity when I’m not chasing opportunities for wealth because honestly, most people are bumbling idiots and chatting most people up is about as interesting as talking to a tree stump—especially given my education and how I could fix all the world’s problems if I were in charge and if I wanted to fix all the world’s problems (I honestly don’t care much about other’s suffering). This forum has a slightly more intelligent base of people than I commonly encounter, and I find that refreshing. I am more than happy to be part of a group of elites such as the elite minds who have created such intricate game worlds on this forum, and am grateful some people on here have a good enough attention span and time to give me game worlds to escape into. For what its worth, I’d probably be sorted into Gehenna if I died in Faerun, as I fall somewhere between neutral evil and lawful evil, while still being a “lite” version of that alignment (ie: I’ve not killed anybody or maimed anybody worse than I’ve needed to advance). Thus, it is now that I will entreat you with the following questions:

Given how different Faerun is from Golorion, are there any roadblocks to consider before adopting a great wheel model or before setting a game on Faerun?

In your experience, which game setting is more challenging and complex, Faerun or Golorion?

Are the red wizards a major entity in that campaign setting?

How much preplanning does it take to run a game successfully, given my games tend to run out of steam after just a few weeks, usually?

[Florian]

Truth be told, Faerun is the original kitchen sink setting and what comes over as complexity can be summed up with one word: Bloat.

The FR were basically the main setting for AD&D 2nd, with games like Baldurs Gate being one of the driving forces behind the massive popularity. So, basically starting with the Avatar Crisis trilogy, yo now have two and a half editions full of comics, novels and such integrated as meta-plot.

The Great Wheel cosmology was partially invented to also offer all of TSR/WotCs settings a commonly shared background that also serves to explain some of the oddities, like the alignment system. Basically, is as used as the basis for the meta.setting Planescape. By the time 2nd edition was over, the Great Wheel had amassed so much bloat and contradictions, that it was decided not to use it for the 3E FR and 3.5E edition Eberron, instead just using it for the setting-neutral stuff (that was based off of Greyhawk).

The Red Wizards might be the faction that has received the most printed material over the editions, but like with everything LE in the FR, they suffer from the Nazi Syndrome: They will never win. Period.

Ok, short comparison:
- Golarion vs. FR: Golarion is better for playing in it, the FR received more in-deoth descriptive material (Volos guides and such), so they're better to nerd about it.
- Great Wheel vs. Great Beyond: Great Beyond is simply the updated version of the Great Wheel, vasty decluttered and with the trash taken out. The 3E FR River cosmology is something to forget entirely.

[Zhentarim]

Truth be told, Faerun is the original kitchen sink setting and what comes over as complexity can be summed up with one word: Bloat.

The FR were basically the main setting for AD&D 2nd, with games like Baldurs Gate being one of the driving forces behind the massive popularity. So, basically starting with the Avatar Crisis trilogy, yo now have two and a half editions full of comics, novels and such integrated as meta-plot.

The Great Wheel cosmology was partially invented to also offer all of TSR/WotCs settings a commonly shared background that also serves to explain some of the oddities, like the alignment system. Basically, is as used as the basis for the meta.setting Planescape. By the time 2nd edition was over, the Great Wheel had amassed so much bloat and contradictions, that it was decided not to use it for the 3E FR and 3.5E edition Eberron, instead just using it for the setting-neutral stuff (that was based off of Greyhawk).

The Red Wizards might be the faction that has received the most printed material over the editions, but like with everything LE in the FR, they suffer from the Nazi Syndrome: They will never win. Period.

Ok, short comparison:
- Golarion vs. FR: Golarion is better for playing in it, the FR received more in-deoth descriptive material (Volos guides and such), so they're better to nerd about it.
- Great Wheel vs. Great Beyond: Great Beyond is simply the updated version of the Great Wheel, vasty decluttered and with the trash taken out. The 3E FR River cosmology is something to forget entirely.

I will probably continue to use Golarion based on this information you have provided, though I’ll probably start using alignment tendencies.

[Florian]

I’ll probably start using alignment tendencies.

Why, tho?

Granted, the CRB uses the exact same races, classes, alignment system and all that, to mirror the old 3.5E PHB and be able to act as a direct replacement. That more or less holds true for the whole "generic" lines, like the Ultimate series.

In Contrast, Golarion as a setting plays pretty fast and loose with alignments, more so in the latter supplements, the ones that add real depth to the setting (IMHO, YMMV).

Some random examples for this:

Hellknights: Champions of Law with the near-heretical believe in the Godclaw pantheon, ranging from LE Asmodeus to LG Iomedae. Paladins fight side by side with Anti-Paladins (Tyrants) apparently without "taking the fall".

Axis: This LN plane is also home to the realms of Norgober (NE) and Milani (CG). It´s just logical that the god of thieves and the goddess of rebellion are were the actual action is.

Boneyard: The N plane, hosting the Spire, is also home to the realms of Groetus (CN) and Achaekek (LE) (as well as other death-related deities). Again, it only makes sense that the assassin of gods and the end of the world dwell in the realm of death.

Planar oddities: Speaking of the Boneyard, that's also the home of the planar metropolis Spire´s Edge, which houses the souls of those whose conviction, faith or alignment was so weak as to be non-existent - better luck at your next try after reincarnation. Basrakal over in the Maelstrom is more or less entirely populated by outsiders whose alignment doesn't match their (sub-)type, from discarded Heralds and Servants to CN Kolyarut and such.

A-typical codex: There're quit a lot of (Anti-)Paladin codices that feature surprising elements. For example, Anti-Paladins of Her Feng can offer aid freely and perform heroic and self-less acts and deeds, provided that part of the solution resolves around killing and destruction (Ideally, by liberal use of Lightning Bolt, which Clerics and Anti-Paladins add to their list)

Beyond that, both Ultimate Campaign and Pathfinder Unchained offer a more refined version of the alignments system, using a sliding scale instead of absolutes.

Believe vs. Believe: There's Objective Morality, then there's believe, the difference here is quite startling. Yes, the Prophecies of Kalistrade actually work (I tend to call them Prophets of Wall Street). Yes, followers of the Esoteric Order have quite some insight into the whole alignments business because of the Gospel of Tabris, the first entity to ever try to map all deeds ever done. Yes, followers of the Green Faith and/or Sangpotshi believe the River of Souls to be also the River of Life and will reincarnate....

[gkathellar]

@Florian: FWIW (not much), gods having their realms in Planes with different alignments is a Planescape thing too. Gruumsh and Maglubiyet both live in Acheron, for instance, because they’re war gods and Acheron is where the war is.

[Florian]

@Florian: FWIW (not much), gods having their realms in Planes with different alignments is a Planescape thing too. Gruumsh and Maglubiyet both live in Acheron, for instance, because they’re war gods and Acheron is where the war is.

That's basically what I meant earlier. 95% of the material follows a stupid alignment-based approach, ex: having all CG deities reside in CG planes, while only 5% follow a thematic approach. These inconsistencies are understandable, but weird then.

Same holds true with power and ranking. PF is pretty clear what the difference of having a CR (and stat block) and being beyond that means, a thing D&D never managed. As a rather simple example, Apsu and Groetus are not widely worshipped deities, they don't have any noticeable degree of personal power or power-bases amongst their cult, still all of the gods take notice when those two speak: The one is the definitive end of the multiverse, the other is the spark in the void that will light up the new one. Their role and function is way above such measly thing as alignment and power. The setting also treats the Dark Tapestry and Azathoth quite a bit differently than usual.