I need help choosing third level spells for an illusionist

[Jay R]

With the latest experience points, my character Gwystyl is now fifth level, which means I need to choose third level spells. Since I’ve never played a 3.5e caster before, I’m asking for advice. My AD&D experience has led me astray more than once. Here are the relevant parameters:

1. He’s the only full arcane caster in the party, so he needs to cover what the party needs. [There's another PC who is a split caster and something, and who cast Shocking Grasp. I don't know what classes he has. The others are a Druid, a Rogue, and a Monk.]

2. He’s a gnome illusionist with Illusion Mastery. That means he gets two free illusion spells on top of the two spells he gets for going up to third level.

3. For a gnome illusionist, several illusion spells are easier to get. He already has Major Image as a 2nd level spell, and he’s taking Illusory Wall as a third level spell. But the third level Illusion spells don't look that useful. I'm considering Invisibility Sphere, Cone of Dimness, Shadow Binding, and Suspended Silence.

4. Evocation and Necromancy are barred schools (so no Fireball or Lightning Bolt). Any Conjuration spell acts as if he is one level lower, so it has to be really good.

5. He has Uncanny Forethought, so he can leave five slots open, and fill them with any spell he’s mastered instantly. He can also use any spell he knows, but the spell takes a full round to complete, and acts as if he’s one level down. He’s mastered all his illusion spells, as well as Charm, Feather Fall, Grease, Instant Search, and Sleep.

6. He already has Haste from a spellbook he found earlier.

As an illusionist, he doesn't go through all his spells as fast, because he spends many combat rounds just concentrating on a pre-cast illusion. That fact, plus Uncanny Forethought, gives him a little more freedom to choose an occasional utility spell not used in combat.

So what spells should he take now? I'm considering the illusion spells listed above, as well as Fly, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Unluck, and Heroism. Which are the best? Is there an obvious one I've left out?

I need to pick four spells, at least two of which must be illusion spells.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

[ericgrau]

With conjuration a level lower, you really shouldn't have barred evocation nor necromancy, but ok let's see what's left. Oh, haste all the way. Ok have fun, that was easy. If someone (EDIT: or you) already got haste then rage is a so-so buff once you get to caster level 6th. You could get greater magic weapon, heroism or shrink item for the future, though they aren't the greatest thing to prepare right now. Cast ahead of time, minding the duration: GMW for wilderness, heroism for dungeons, shrink item on a caster level day cycle to tag & carry caster level big items. I'd take swift fly over fly (spell compendum, 2nd level spell), and prepare 2-3 copies. Swift actions are amazing and blowing a standard action on utility hurts. If you need it more for non-combat, get levitate instead. It has a nice range and works on allies and objects too, and so it's also great in combat though not as much for personal flight purposes. Or maybe spider climb, though I'd scroll use your ability to full round cast anything you know on that one.

Illusions are hard to pull off so you want a couple illusions but also a mix of other spells prepared. Also make sure you discuss with your DM what "if interacted with" means. I'd take it as taking an action with it, such as an attack, search check, or *actively* engaging in combat with it (even before an action against it). A fake wall hiding a side passage is unlikely to be carefully observed and is a great example of a no save illusion. Your DM may have a different opinion, but make sure he offers some form of no save illusions or that's a huge nerf.

Illusion spells: displacement and major image, or something from a splatbook. I didn't notice much in spell compendium. Shadow binding (SpC) isn't bad, though I'd almost rather prepare web as a 3rd level spell, even without your illusion save bonuses. It helps even on passed saves.

Since you can use any spell you know as a full round action, I'd load up on lots of utility spells such as divinations. 2nd level is loaded with nice utility in most of the other schools too. Spend gold on getting them from NPCs, and get tons. That's a really strong power, kinda broken-ish. I assume your DM gave it to you?

[Jay R]

Thanks for the advice. A few comments.


With conjuration a level lower, you really shouldn't have barred evocation nor necromancy, ...

You may be right, but I would never take necromantic spells, unless I am playing an evil character. That's a personal aesthetic choice. And he will eventually get all conjuration and evocation back as shadow spells.

Having said that, not having them now is a pain.


... but ok let's see what's left. Oh, haste all the way. Ok have fun, that was easy. If someone (EDIT: or you) already got haste then rage is a so-so buff once you get to caster level 6th. You could get greater magic weapon, heroism or shrink item for the future, though they aren't the greatest thing to prepare right now.

Agreed. When I can only cast three in a day, one of them won't be a buff for a single other party member.


Cast ahead of time, minding the duration: GMW for wilderness, heroism for dungeons, shrink item on a caster level day cycle to tag & carry caster level big items.

This makes sense. It won't be one of my first four 3rd-level spells, but you've convinced me I want Shrink Item eventually -- particularly as a low-strength gnome.


I'd take swift fly over fly (spell compendum, 2nd level spell), and prepare 2-3 copies. Swift actions are amazing and blowing a standard action on utility hurts. If you need it more for non-combat, get levitate instead. It has a nice range and works on allies and objects too, and so it's also great in combat though not as much for personal flight purposes. Or maybe spider climb, though I'd scroll use your ability to full round cast anything you know on that one.

Swift Fly and Fly are not interchangeable. Swift Fly is self-only, and a squishy caster stays in the background. I prefer to send the meat shields up to investigate high dangers and be high-visibility targets.


Illusions are hard to pull off so you want a couple illusions but also a mix of other spells prepared. Also make sure you discuss with your DM what "if interacted with" means. I'd take it as taking an action with it, such as an attack, search check, or *actively* engaging in combat with it (even before an action against it). A fake wall hiding a side passage is unlikely to be carefully observed and is a great example of a no save illusion. Your DM may have a different opinion, but make sure he offers some form of no save illusions or that's a huge nerf.

My DM is quite level-headed, and his approach to illusions matches mine. Interacting requires an actual conscious interaction - either the NPC trying something or (of course) every time the illusion causes him damage. A fake wall won't be noticed unless the NPC knows that area already, or feels the wall. The result is that I've been quite successful with illusions so far (except when I tried a Hypnotic Pattern on monsters without sight).

The biggest problems have been when I have been led astray by my AD&D experience, and (for instance) thought I could create a unit of six crossbowmen.


Illusion spells: displacement and major image, or something from a splatbook. I didn't notice much in spell compendium. Shadow binding (SpC) isn't bad, though I'd almost rather prepare web as a 3rd level spell, even without your illusion save bonuses. It helps even on passed saves.

As a gnome, Gwystyl already has major image as a 2nd level spell. Displacement would be nice, but mirror image is more effective for himself; it lasts longer and reduces hit chance more. Displacement is usable on a single ally, of course, but I'm not sure I'd ever use one of three slots on that, when Haste helps everyone in the party.


Since you can use any spell you know as a full round action, I'd load up on lots of utility spells such as divinations. 2nd level is loaded with nice utility in most of the other schools too. Spend gold on getting them from NPCs, and get tons. That's a really strong power, kinda broken-ish. I assume your DM gave it to you?

Nope. It's the Uncanny Forethought feat, from [I]Exemplars of Evil. It's not as broken as you think, since it's similar to what sorcerors do, and cost two feats (Spell Mastery and Uncanny Forethought), but it offers some nice flexibility.

[Particle_Man]

If you can get major image as a second level spell, can you get phantasmal killer as a third level spell?

I would take whatever normally fourth level spells you are allowed as a gnome to take as third level spells.

[Jay R]

If you can get major image as a second level spell, can you get phantasmal killer as a third level spell?

No, I can't. It's the gnome illusionist variant from Races of Stone, and the only 4th level spell I can get as a third level is illusory wall.


I would take whatever normally fourth level spells you are allowed as a gnome to take as third level spells.

I'm doing just that, but there's only one. So I need to choose another illusion spell.

It's kind of weird. In general, you expect really solid new spells. But because he already has major image s a second level spell, there really isn't a third level illusion spell as useful as that 2nd level one.

[Troacctid]

So what spells should he take now? I'm considering the illusion spells listed above, as well as Fly, Dispel Magic, Hold Person, Unluck, and Heroism. Which are the best? Is there an obvious one I've left out?
Well, I think you can knock suspended silence and unluck off your list. The former isn't worth the material cost IMO, and the latter is just not that great. On the other hand, I think shadow binding and cone of dimness are both quite good (and definitely better than hold person). You have a druid in your party, so I presume you don't need to take battlefield control all onto your own shoulders, but I think most arcanists do want to have some area control, and as a gnome illusionist, you want them to be illusions so they benefit from both your racial bonus to illusion save DCs and your Spell Focus (illusion). (I just assume most illusionists pick up Spell Focus as a prerequisite for Proteus.) Of course, there's definitely a case that they're redundant with one another, so maybe you just take one of the two.

If you're considering fly, then I'd lean towards celestial aspect instead, as I think it's just better. You get a faster fly speed plus the option to audible to a badass holy sword for an arm or a no-save-just-lose against summoned or called creatures. And the sacrifice cost is NBD.

I like heroism, but I'm more inclined to get it out of a wand. It's a 2nd level spell for bards, so it's relatively cheap. Hold person is a clear no IMO since you already have charm person for those enemies.

One spell you didn't list that I think is very good is heart of water.

[ericgrau]

No, I can't. It's the gnome illusionist variant from Races of Stone, and the only 4th level spell I can get as a third level is illusory wall.
Oh, that's a really good spell because it's permanent. So in the side passage example you block it off and forget about it, moving on to other actions. It also works on floors or ceilings, instant pit trap. Or hide a doorway, etc. How about that one?

I see uncanny forethought has a limit on the number of spells so it's not nearly as great as I thought. Oh well.

Besides helping your gnome carry more stuff with shrink item, think of clever ways to carry huge things that nobody could lug around before. But yeah that's for the future.



Swift Fly and Fly are not interchangeable. Swift Fly is self-only, and a squishy caster stays in the background. I prefer to send the meat shields up to investigate high dangers and be high-visibility targets.
Ah so you have a different application. Think of it this way then: Are you going to cast it on the melee between fights every day, or only some days? If it's only some days then you might want a couple scrolls of spider climb instead. Maybe even a scroll of fly, but then you might want the spell just so you can scribe it. OTOH if it's only 1-2 scrolls maybe buy them and learn something else. If you're thinking of tagging them with fly during a fight you might often be better off attacking with something. Etc.

On necromancy, I rarely use it to raise the dead. I like ray of enfeeblement, false life and enervation. It's also great anti-undead via halt undead. Though command undead is good too, which takes control of enemy undead. But oh well too late now. Likewise while fireball is great I use evocation for more than fireball or even damage, but ditto.

I looked up the gnome illusionist variant and I see it's only losing 1 caster level for conjuration, not a spell level. You might want to pick up sleet storm next level then. It's a really good spell and not really caster level dependent. For now you might pick up web if you don't already have it. Likewise it's great even casting it late.

[Jay R]

I've read through all your comments, as well as those of my party. My current plan is to take

0. Haste
1. Illusory Wall
2. Cone of Dimness
3. Dispel Magic, and
4. Fly.

They seem to combine the best illusions, the most commonly needed spells (haste and fly), and one that, if needed at all, is indispensable (dispel magic).

Anybody have a set of spells that you think would be superior to these, given the conditions?

[denthor]

Abjuration. Dispel magic

Divination. Arcane sight no spell component to identify magic items

Do you have invisibility? Can you get the 4th level invisibility?

Displacement is an illusion spell

stinking cloud battle field control spell forget the school.

Blink falls in that spell tier.

[Doctor Awkward]

Everything I have on my current illusionist was already mentioned here:
Dispel Magic, Arcane Sight, Major Image, Displacement.

So the only argument I would again make in favor of displacement is that it stacks with mirror image. After the attacker rolls a 1 in 8 to pick the correct image, they must then roll a 50% miss chance to strike their target. It can make mirror image last a lot longer by adding a second layer of defense to you and your images. I have used it a number of times and never once felt like it was overkill. Tanking the 10-headed hydra for two rounds unscathed was particularly memorable.

[Troacctid]

I've read through all your comments, as well as those of my party. My current plan is to take

0. Haste
1. Illusory Wall
2. Cone of Dimness
3. Dispel Magic, and
4. Fly.

They seem to combine the best illusions, the most commonly needed spells (haste and fly), and one that, if needed at all, is indispensable (dispel magic).

Anybody have a set of spells that you think would be superior to these, given the conditions?
Is celestial aspect unavailable in your game, then?

[Jay R]

This discussion is really helping me, by the way, far beyond the mere choices I have to make right now.


Is celestial aspect unavailable in your game, then?

I didn't know anything about it, and had ignored it because it isn't listed as a wizard spell.

But I just got out my Book of Exalted Deeds and saw that, with a change in direction in character, he could use it. So I have to consider it.

I have two reasons I'm nervous about it. First, I'm not sure a gnome trickster can qualify as one of "those willing to utterly devote himself to good". His alignment is Neutral Good, but I haven't played him as focused on good; I've played him as a trickster, an occasional liar, and somebody who makes fun of the customs of other groups. [He refers to the rest of the party as "daft biggers" regularly, for instance.]

Second, it has a penalty of 1-3 STR points. That is serious to a STR 10 gnome. If he used it, he would automatically be encumbered until the penalty wore off. I might be able to change that by carrying less, but his spellbooks alone are 12 lbs of the 17.25 a STR 7 gnome can carry unencumbered. If his STR drops to 7, and he exceeds 17.25 lbs, his speed slows to 15 ft/round. That's not the speed of an adventuring party; it's the speed of prey.

How long does it take for that penalty to wear off, by the way?

I'll consider it, because the benefits of the spell are very good. But I don't think I can bring myself to ask the DM if Gwystyl could count as Good enough to use it.


Everything I have on my current illusionist was already mentioned here:
Dispel Magic, Arcane Sight, Major Image, Displacement.

So the only argument I would again make in favor of displacement is that it stacks with mirror image. After the attacker rolls a 1 in 8 to pick the correct image, they must then roll a 50% miss chance to strike their target. It can make mirror image last a lot longer by adding a second layer of defense to you and your images. I have used it a number of times and never once felt like it was overkill. Tanking the 10-headed hydra for two rounds unscathed was particularly memorable.

Major Image is on my list; it's 2nd level for me.

You make an excellent case for Displacement. My problem isn't that I think it's overkill; it's that at this level, he only gets two 3rd-level spells per day. I'd like to have it; i just think I wouldn't cast another purely defensive spell for myself. I may take it at sixth level.

Arcane Sight is similar. I expect to use Haste almost every adventuring day, Fly on a regular basis, and Cone of Dimness whenever the enemies are gathered in the right place. If I had the four I've chosen plus Arcane Sight, I would almost never be able to use Arcane Sight, because I have more important things to do with the two slots.

Later on, when he has more 3rd-level spells per day, he might try to get Displacement and Arcane Sight, but I can't convince myself that they will be used as this level.

-----

Please keep offering advice. I'm learning a lot, even about the spells I'm not taking yet.

[Eldariel]

I'd definitely take Slow. It's just an incredible spell, doubly so if you lack access to the usual Conjurations (one level lower as in one caster level? That's not that bad then and Stinking Cloud would probably be good enough anyways). And you sound like you could use AOE disables, particularly if you're the only arcanist. AOE Will SoL that's not mind affecting is just incredible, particularly if you don't have Glitterdust/Pyrotechnics to fall back on.

Shrink Item is awesome too as a non-combat tool (and a way to carry that huge statue or boat or whatever home from the dungeon or over a land area or whatever) is just too good not to have. Seriously, the uses are infinite. Sepia Snake Sigil is also nice, but Shrink Item is incomparable.

[Troacctid]

First, I'm not sure a gnome trickster can qualify as one of "those willing to utterly devote himself to good". His alignment is Neutral Good, but I haven't played him as focused on good; I've played him as a trickster, an occasional liar, and somebody who makes fun of the customs of other groups. [He refers to the rest of the party as "daft biggers" regularly, for instance.
You don't actually need to be Good-aligned to cast Sanctified spells, just nonevil. However, since casting a spell with the [Good] descriptor is a good act, anyone casting Sanctified spells is probably going to gradually shift towards Good over time. You're already NG, so you shouldn't have any problems.


How long does it take for that penalty to wear off, by the way?
It's ability damage, so it heals naturally, or you can get rid of it with lesser restoration or the like.

[Mordaedil]

It's worth noting that Summon Monster III is the first one where the summons are considered really good and the impact your caster level has on it is simply rooted in duration. So at 5th level, casting at 4th level, you can summon something that is around for 4 rounds, which isn't optimal, but that's still a good monster that is around for a decent slob of time.

You are absolutely correct in that you need to consider your spells carefully at this level and summon monster is certainly affected by this and you probably have better options, but it is an option.

[Edenbeast]

I've read through all your comments, as well as those of my party. My current plan is to take

0. Haste
1. Illusory Wall
2. Cone of Dimness
3. Dispel Magic, and
4. Fly.

They seem to combine the best illusions, the most commonly needed spells (haste and fly), and one that, if needed at all, is indispensable (dispel magic).

Anybody have a set of spells that you think would be superior to these, given the conditions?

I think Phantasmal Strangler from Complete Mage is a lot of fun.