Dealing with a party of (almost all) murder hobos

[superninja109]

deleted.......

[StoicLeaf]

Depends.

The most helpful and straightforward answer is: talk to your players.
People often forget that the DM is a player as well. The DM is there to have fun and is entitled to it (*gasp*) just like everyone else is.
You aren't interested in running a game where you serve your party one helpless person after another. Tell them that.
If they agree to play a more sensible game, I suggest that you implement sensible law enforcement to handle any outbursts.
Perhaps start at a lower level so that your garrison of town guards is actually a threat to them.

[Ganymede]

Any help or advice is much appreciated.

You need to get some buy-in from your players. Without that, lots of players will play the game as if they were playing Fallout or Fable, randomly making actions to see what happens.


Assuming your players like roleplay to begin with, a really good way to get buy-in is to lift the adventure hook from the Cellar of Death adventure. In short, have your players work together to create an NPC that binds them all, then start the adventure at that NPC's funeral. You can't do this every single time, but it is a great way to boot-strap up their PC motivations.

[ashtrails]

[...]so long as it doesn't become a mess o murdering innocent civilians in a part of the city that I am completely improvising. I don't really mind running a full-on hack and slash, but I just need a way to steer slightly into areas and tasks where I can actually use some of my preparation.

Any help or advice is much appreciated.

There are, in therory, a lot of things, you can do.
But what's appropriate depends heavily on you, your group, their experience, your experience, confidence and let's call it 'table presence' etc.
A lot of suggestions might sound good on paper but will smash pretty hard into a reality wall due to the human factor ; e.g. having their in-game behavior have consequences or make them connect more with the world, your characters and plot, because that's just stuff that takes time and patience especially if that's their frst go at pen&paper (and that's the case, if I read you correctly).

Best advice I can give you from experience is... do exactly what you don't want to do according to what you've said.
Let them paint the town red, improvise everything, prepare nothing apart from some foundations. Just let them have fun and eventually you can steer into a more 'sophisticated direction', because chaos and mayhem will wear themselves out eventually and the natural progression is to want more from your pen&paper game than just slaying everything. And from my experience, you can't force that, it just happens along the line.

Some intresting groundwork might be that you deliberately tune your whole setting to this style. There's bands of 'heores' (murder hobos) everywhere, some of them may even be competing; ordinary people have a really tough life. Heck maybe monsters are paid to get rid of heroes, if you wanna be extra subversive ; )
Basically, focus more on the worldbuilding of a chaotic world these sociopaths would fit in perfectly rather than try to make a normal world adapt to people like that. Your players will probably start asking questions at some point and try to find out WHY, or how they can find an even better place there, change the world etc, that's when you can introduce 'real' story points that merit heavy preparation.
Just spitballing, but that's maybe a way everyone could enjoy their time at the table : )

[Dankus Memakus]

Ive had this exact same problem with my gaming group of about 3 years. Heres my recommendation. Roll with it. Sometimes it can horrendous in the beggining but slowly you will adapt. What i did was i added in lots of humor and made my NPCs great champions of good. Also I made it so a bunch of level one characters get destroyed by the town guard forcing them to be illegal outside of settlements. Eventually they get bored and begin following your story. It sounds like a slog but its a playstyle that has no substance and tends to fade after time.

[Contrast]

Sounds like you mostly need to have a quick chat with your players to clarify what sort of game you're all looking to play.

You could present the players with the consequences of their actions (crying orphaned children of all the guards they murdered, their names on wanted posters, etc.) but honestly if they just wanna joke around and kill things and you want realistic worlds with consequences you may be better of just calling it now and trying something else on game night (or running one shots).

It may be that a more dungeon run style setting with occasional return trips to town might let them vent their inner murder hobos while letting you try to instil the NPCs in town for more positive interactions. Stereotypical D&D has 'evil' races its ok to kill on sight for a reason.

Or just embrace the murder hoboism and have evil organisations hire them for quests rather than your more typical heroic ones.

[Ganymede]

Ganymede, just to clarify, you are suggesting that I need to make a good plot hook with clearer direction, right.

I'm saying to give them a visceral reason to go on your adventure. It sounds like your prior adventure hook was clear enough, they just need a bit more motivation than "go do some rando task for some rando duke."

[EggKookoo]

Perhaps start at a lower level so that your garrison of town guards is actually a threat to them.

Basically this. The duke should have wiped the floor with them.

[Aimeryan]

One thing to note is that the players, especially at the start of a campaign, are not the most powerful people around - or even close to it. Usually such powerful people/groups are busy dealing with bigger problems than the likes the player's group is handling. If you don't want them to just go around killing everyone, make it so that they cannot - one way or the other.

For example, given that session, the next village/town/whatever they come to people could be gossiping about how everyone in XYZ village/town/whatever was massacred - turns out one of the townsfolk (the Duke, a shopkeeper, visiting noble, etc.) had a Sending crystal/rod/something and was able to get the message out before being killed. A powerful group of heroes/fighter/wizard/whatever has been informed and is on the lookout for said group; if they bring attention to themselves in that manner they better be prepared to face the consequences.

[GlenSmash!]

"Hey guys, I'm glad you had fun but it's not fun for me to run scenarios where you just let your inner sociopath loose and kill everyone. It's important that everyone at the table including me are having a fun time. So lets talk about what we each expect from the game and how we can help each other all have fun."

[Digimike]

If it were me I'd just continue to play it out.

So they slaughtered everyone in town. Now there's a power vacuum. Do monsters move in? Did some townies escape and alert nearby villages? They killed a Duke, surely he has family that will put bounties on the party's heads.

It could be prey fun hunting the party down with powerful bounty hunters.

Perhaps the party could become muscle for a crime Lord looting treasure from old tombs, constantly on the run from authorities.

[EggKookoo]

But, still, I get your point. I'll have to make people who can stop them. I did have the one random 3rd level monk on the street, but the defeated him without even trying all that much. I'll have to just have groups of people instead of just one powerful foe. That's a bad habit of mine.

If you want a single opponent who can give your party a challenge, take a look at legendary creatures, or Angry GM's paragon monsters. Even if you don't use those systems outright, they can give you some ideas on how to make one single creature a threat to a party of just about any size. The shorthand is, it's not breaking the rules to give the creature multiple turns, almost as if it were multiple creatures wrapped into one.

[Nhorianscum]

Hello. Just last night, I tried to start a campaign with friends of mine. To say the least, it did not go too well. I had planned an adventure with a fairly simple plot (recover the duke's crown from the thieves) in order to introduce them to the game. They ended up ignoring the adventure and just trying to ill everyone they saw and break into the castle to kill the duke and then start a revolution. Eventually, I was tired and frustrated so I just let them run rampant and said "congratulations, by the end of the day, there is nobody left alive in the town.
They had a blast, but I felt really disappointed and frustrated because I had planned out in extensive detail the starter adventure, a few local dungeons, tons of NPCs, etc but they just decided to be murder hobos. I know that that is just what PC's do sometimes and half of my plans will never be used anyway, so I guess my question is: how can I make adventures that they will want to complete and will have fun completing? I enjoy running the game so long as it doesn't become a mess o murdering innocent civilians in a part of the city that I am completely improvising. I don't really mind running a full-on hack and slash, but I just need a way to steer slightly into areas and tasks where I can actually use some of my preparation.

Any help or advice is much appreciated.

Two options here...

The party is now CE and the BBEG of the rest of the world. Evil campain is a go. Plot device is "not dieing after we've pissed off absolutely everyone". Heists, assasinations, etc, full inglorious bastas. If the CS alignment keeps rearing it's head just tpk (in a suitably entertaining manner) and reroll with a proper session 0.

Or just let em know that's not your bag and if it's no bueno drop rocks and play instead of gming/leave.

Regardless the next session should open with "the consequences of killing everyone", with room for them to escape ofc. More importantly it should open with a discussion of what you want, and what the players want from this campain.

[CTurbo]

If it were me, one of the random town people would have been an ancient silver dragon in disguise that would have put a stop to that nonsense. Or suddenly a Solar appears and wipes the floor with the PCs. Either way, they'd be rolling up new characters.


Whenever you start a campaign, there has to be a couple of previously agreed upon rules.

#1. The players have to have some general cooperation and their characters have some reason to be "together" and actually be a team.
#2. The players have to know, understand, and agree that you, the DM, are running a campaign for them and they are expected to at least attempt to go along with the story hook.

It's hard work being a DM and for players to ignore all the work and planning that you've put into your story/world is a huge slap in the face to me.

I'd talk to them, and give them one more chance, but if they act crazy again, I would dump them.

[AHF]

Dealing with the aftermath of their bloodbath could make for some nice adventures with more predictable scenarios. How about someone survived the slaughter of the town and word has gotten out that an entire community was massacred. There is a huge bounty being placed on the heads of “The Slaughterers of [Town Name].” Maybe right now no one knows the identities of these killers and someone approached the PCs to hire them to track down the killers and exact justice - this could let them throw the blame on someone else and return to a more normal plot line for the time being with the added benefit of repeat behavior increasing the risk of their being able exposed and the general risk of their being exposed at some point in the future always a possible arc. Maybe they even get a personalizing arc where they help someone and get invested only to find out that the reason their life is crap is because the PCs slaughtered their family and destroyed the family farm, etc. while they were away at the market in a nearby community.

The survivor is a big unknown letting you pivot in a lot of different directions depending on how you want to go (maybe the survivor is a child who can ID them or a woman who didn’t get a clear view, etc). The King sends out his special task force because this is basically hunting down a group of terrorists and the PCs are on the run.

If they are treating this like a video game those frequently have punishing mechanisms for wanton violence such as a group of wizards tracking them who could teleport in at inopportune times or completely overwhelm them.

[Ganymede]

But, still, I get your point. I'll have to make people who can stop them.

I mean, not really.

The real world is filled with people we could easily murder. On the other hand, we generally don't go around murdering these people, and not simply because it will attract the eventual attention of powerful real-life NPCs. Most of us are roleplaying decent people in real life, people that form bonds with those around us. Evil alignments aside, see if you can get your players to imagine their PCs as decent people.

[Potato_Priest]

Actually, dealing with murderhobo players is really rather easy once you get the hang of it. Basically, the trick is to treat every situation they enter as a potential combat as well as social encounter. While this takes some preparation, on the plus side you can put less effort into preparing classically structured adventures and trying to explain away the reason that the group of NPCs are hired by powerful indiduals who could probably achieve their goals themselves. A murderhobo evil game can be a lot of fun. I should know after running a few.

Here are a few tricks that I've learned over time:

The PCs will only violently backstab groups within close physical proximity. For instance, if a country offers to pay them to serve as mercenaries and they agree, they will tend to betray their hirer only if they are actually fighting alongside that country's army. If you leave them to fight separately they'll be ruthless but efficient mercenaries. This has the added benefit of making combat easier to manage, since you only have to play one side.

Nothing gets murderhobo players excited like a new weapon type to loot. If the PCs see a cannon or other piece of siege weaponry in the hands of a group, they are going to try to acquire it, likely through violence. This will be very annoying if you put cool weaponry in every town, but give it to the people you want the PCs to kill and it's almost a sure thing.

Murderhobos respond poorly to overwhelming force, but marginally better to threat of embarrassment. A superior army arriving to stop the activities of the players will tend to elicit a suicidal charge, while the threat of something that would make them look stupid, silly or otherwise inept is treated much more seriously. By the same token, npcs threatening the PCs' gear is much more terrifying for them than threatening the party's lives.

If you don't want cannibalism, don't track rations. This is just what it says. If you track rations, players will go to any length to get them for free, including acts verging on cannibalism. (eating the bottom halves of centaurs, etc).

Murderhobos have different motivations. So far I have noticed three basic types of murderhobos: Sadists, Cheaters and Lunatics. Sadists like the raw gore and grit of violence, describing bloodbaths and gruesome scenes in great detail will tend to enhance their experience. Cheaters live for stabbing people in the back, and like nothing better than an opportunity to betray an NPC at a key moment (make sure to keep an eye on them lest they betray the party if you don't like pvp). Lunatics have no particular inclination towards evil, but doing crazy things of any variety appeals to them immensely. If you get one in a party of other murderhobos, this is the way that it tends to get represented. Let them get away with an insane antic or two and they'll keep coming back for more.

[Sigreid]

That makes sense. You're right, now that I think about, it is kinda random. That is just my go-to for whenever I run one-shots.

"Guys, I like to prepare a fulfilling adventure that you can sink your teeth into instead of just catering to the villains in a slasher film. Please work with me here and give me some things your character, and by your character I mean you, would be interested in doing so I can build that kind of a game and we can all have fun."

Seems to me the biggest problem is they had no interest in retrieving the whatever. So, find out what they would be interested in.

[CTurbo]

I did have a group basically quit a campaign on me once. It was a homebrew campaign and I ended up making it too difficult on accident. It didn't help things that all 4 of them picked monster races and drew up pretty poorly optimized characters. It was a learning experience for all of us, and we talked it out, and things got better from there. Always talk things out with your players or DM.

[djreynolds]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.
I really ike your idea, ashtrails.
Ganymede, just to clarify, you are suggesting that I need to make a good plot hook with clearer direction, right.

I guess another question I have is do you think I should continue from this first session or the "campaign" from scratch?
If I did continue, do you think it would be a good idea to start the next session with the party pursued by law enforcement people to try to give

Like the end of Holy Grail

The cops show up, kick their butts. It's obvious the want a fight. Give them one. Kick their behinds. Nothing is better than DM A.C. and DM crits, love the DM screen.

Next adventure could trying to break out of jail.

Or taking on perilous task like suicide squad does... if they don't complete it, they're being scryed tell them, then they die.

Seriously, they may enjoy this.

[Pex]

When starting my game I flat out said "No Evil". During play a player went a bit overboard, meaning not intending to be evil, wanting to use torture to interrogate a prisoner. I said no, there's no evil in this game. I agree that's a DM controlling a player and is something anyone would frown upon, but I allowed for this exception because it's not the game I wanted to run. I experienced a PC wanting to torture running a game years ago and determined then I would never allow it again. He understood and went with another tactic of using humiliation.

Tell your players that's not the game you want to run. If they can't accept it then sadly you don't run a game with them.

[Malifice]

How did this happen?

How on earth did a group of people just wander around town killing people, guardsmen and murdering the local lord, with no ramifications?

OP: I dont know where you live IRL, but if a group of homeless people came to the town where you live, started murdering people and killing cops, and then slaughtered your local mayor and declared themselves 'Kings of the area' what do you think would happen to them?

Would there not be serious ramifications for this action? Would the Prime Minister, President, Governor or whatever of where you live not deploy the full Police force, Army, Helicopters and so forth? Would it not be met with the response it deserves?

In your game, would first the local Lord of the area, and then the Baron above him, and then the King above him not deploy overwhelming force (as many Mages, Knights, Veterans, Champions, War Priests, Guards and so forth NPCs) to track the PCs down, and (very messily) publicly execute them to show people that this kind of thing is bad and the King wont stand for it?

And what kind of local Lord can just be curbstomped by a group of low level PCs anyway? A King that cant enforce the law (including the laws against treason, murder of the Kings men and insurrection) doesnt deserve to be King.

On a personal level, your players are pushing you around, and you're too scared to have them hung or suffer serously bad consequences for seriously bad actions. Dont be.

[Bundin]

My fallback plan in cases like these is based on the Cowled Wizards that kicked my behind in Amn back in Baldur's Gate 2. I was told not to cast illegal spells, didn't listen, and got my lowlevel asses handed to me. They seem to be winning wave 1? Wave 2 appears and they're incapacitated and bound within a round.

In a world with scrying, teleportation, and planes hopping, any sufficiently powerful ruler (maybe not the Duke, but definitely his boss's boss) can deliver near-instant retribution when needed. I'd leave them an out once with "the Duke you killed was a thorn in my back side, so I will spare your lives this time as your actions coincided with my wishes and I have use for people with your skills, but...". The next time they'd get grinded to paste, with heads on pikes above the city gates Game of Thrones style to get the point across.

If there's no obvious local lord, no reason for anyone powerful to take notice of a village of dead people (one of who begged for his life and briefly glowed with a golden light on death), the party would notice a bright golden streak of light flying towards the camp site one night, crashing down on top of them doing a nice chunk of radiant aoe damage. Enter pissed off Planetar who's taking a break from fiendslaying to educate some wannabe fiends. Zapped to an inch of their lives, burning away their eyebrows, they get the option to repent and swear a holy oath. If they do so, a booming voice yells "IT IS DONE" and the Planetar vanishes. More murder hoboing later? Solar pops in, reminds them of their oath, whispers a prayer with sends the party straight to Gehenna, where they find themselves on a massive battlefield, with Yugoloth and Planetars charging at eachother. They're in the middle and die an unnoticed death under the feet/claws/hooves of whatever was fighting there.

Cinematic education for everyone!

[Sigreid]

You could have some fun by sicking a revenant on them. Seems someone among those they slaughtered might have felt it was just too unfair.

[Azgeroth]

so im guessing these are shiny new players to TTRPGs, and im also assuming you didnt attempt, or didnt attempt strongly enough to curb or redirect them during their mass slaughter, and also, didnt mention anything at the end of the session...

heres your problem, you ran a game, your friends loved it, you didnt..

thats a dangerous presidence, so, given your apparently averse to confronting the groups wanton destruction, just roll with it..

let them know, they currently have 2 stars, they are going to start to see bounty hunters, and criminal types, those trying to bring them to justice, and those trying to use there wanton destruction for their own ends.

and run with it. ok, session one was a dud for you, but they loved it! instead of seeing it as a failure, see it as a wonderful discovery of joy, happiness, and mass murder..

also, keep track of who they are pissing off, you say they murdered all the town guards?? well thats the regional law enforcement who are going to loath and despise them, aswell as the dukes family, and any other persons of power/influence they murdered..

currently they are unknown, so they can probably get by for a while without too much problem, but pretty soon some one is going to find them, and then **** is going to get real, really fast.. and it shall be GLORIOUS

alternatively...

talk to them, let them know they are totally right in assuming this is a game, about killing ****, and getting loot, it totally is that..

but why bottom feed?? seriously, they just basically killed a bunch of peasants, some beat cops, and a mayor.. and yeah, there was loot to be had and lots and lots of murder, but consider this. you can totally go and mug some one, who knows maybe you get lucky and they're rich.. but what if you mug the muggers instead?? why do all the foot work, when you can target the people who have already done it for you. not only are you getting a bigger reward per kill, but your not pissing off the law, or powers at be, or being enemies of the public.

let them know, murder and looting is totally an acceptable thing, just be a little smarter about it. explain there now seriously wanted enemies of the public, and there are going to be a lot, of very scary people, with a lot more kills under their belt coming for them.. they are doomed.. do they want to play it out, or start again?