OOTS #1150 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Xianthe]

Good to see Durkon back on his feet. Again.

ETA: I would totally buy a mug with "I reserve my right to respond to idiocy with divine cleansing fire" on it.

[CareerKnight]

So the gods don't know whats up with the planet either? Interesting.

[Connington]

Welp, Durkon can look forward to some protracted and spirited negotiations over Kudzu's custody & visitation rights.

Also, good to confirm that the gods (Thor at least) are ignorant about the contents of the riff, not deceptive.

[Fyraltari]

And a happy new year! (almost).

Hilarious lines from pretty much everyone.

I knew Thor didn't know about the planet within the planet, but now it looks like Odin didn't either. So he really was talking nonsense (also known as prophetizing) back at the Moot.

[Mic_128]

A hell of a start for the new year!

The gods not knowing about that planet is certainly curious. Could the Snarl have made it's own world over time?

Love everyone's expressions in the last panel. Also, I can't help but wonder whether robed Durkon is going to be a thing now, much the same way V's been rocking that ponytail since their own arc.

[Cazero]

Haley, you really spent too much time with Elan.

[Teioh]

At least one of the clerics can use their Wisdom score properly. Good to get the plot back on track.

Also, V seemed to possibly know, but not care.

[Ruck]

I've been envisioning a group of gamblers who have been sweating bets on whether or not Durkon would end the year alive going through a huge emotional rollercoaster with these last two strips.

[DaOldeWolf]

When your friends dont know the difference between yourself and an evil undead parasite. I am glad that Durkon chewed on them even if a little.

[Morquard]

Oopsie, guess the gods don't know as much about the Snarl as they think they do. I bet in the end the result will be something other than "we lock the Snarl up again, even if its for good this time"

[ella ventic]

I love the panel 5 sound effect. And the commentary on the panel 5 sound effect. :smalltongue:

[hroþila]

That was hilarious. I laughed at Roy's arms falling asleep more than I probably should have. Good thing they didn't need to fight Hilgya - it's hard to see how that'd have gone well with Kudzu in the middle.

I knew Thor didn't know about the planet within the planet, but now it looks like Odin didn't either. So he really was talking nonsense (also known as prophetizing) back at the Moot.
Why did you know that Thor didn't know? You probably remember something I don't.

As for Odin, I'm not sure. The "yarn winding yarn" line might suggest he knows at some level, but perhaps his worship-deficiency-induced senility prevents him from knowing it consciously.

[Anitar]

This is just going to stir up even more strife about Hilgya's alignment, isn't it?

[diplomancer]

this was a heart warming strip, and just on new year's eve too.

Should auld acquaintance be forgot and all that.

Thanks, Giant.

[Fyraltari]

:durkon: The Exarch and a few others...

So not just the nameless one Gontor* took with him then.

Another vampire is still unaccounted for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).

So either two is enough to qualify as "a few" or there are yet more spawns. My guess of Firmament not being completely rid of vampires by the end of the Order's stay here looks less improbable than one strip ago.

[Linneris]

Roy's speech bubble in page 2, panel 7 has an error.

"Unless I'm mistaken, Durkon some of the vampire's little minions were missing from the fight scene, so we're not out of the woods just yet."

There should be a comma after "Durkon".

[Fyraltari]

Why did you know that Thor didn't know? You probably remember something I don't.
The opposite. I found it odd that he didn't mention it once to Durkon, not even in a "And we have no idea what this means!" way.

(EDIT
As for Odin, I'm not sure. The "yarn winding yarn" line might suggest he knows at some level, but perhaps his worship-deficiency-induced senility prevents him from knowing it consciously.
Yes that's a good possiblity. This way he can plays the exposition fairy later on when he's saner.)

This is just going to stir up even more strife about Hilgya's alignment, isn't it?

Frankly if anyone still has doubts after her third and second-to-last lines here, nothing will change their mind.

[Clovis]

So Snarl pulled a string over the Gods' eyes. Interesting...
But V and Blackwing know about the planet within the planet; the three fiends might know as well and their superiors. But not Thor and Odin?

[Fyraltari]

So Snarl pulled a string over the Gods' eyes. Interesting...
But V and Blackwing know about the planet within the planet; the three fiends might know as well and their superiors. But not Thor and Odin?
Blackwing saw it of his own eyes and the Gods spent eons doing everything they can to stay the hell away from it.

[Larre Gannd]

Awesome! The Giant must have heard our forum discussions!

[Monday]

I've been envisioning a group of gamblers who have been sweating bets on whether or not Durkon would end the year alive going through a huge emotional rollercoaster with these last two strips.

Well put me down for 50 quatloos on dead.
I like to live dangerously.

[hroþila]

The opposite. I found it odd that he didn't mention it once to Durkon, not even in a "And we have no idea what this means!" way.
I see. I was a bit of an agnostic because I could imagine reasons why Thor wouldn't mention it and those reasons being important later on, but truth be told I didn't really think about it that much. This makes more sense and it's simpler, too.

[georgie_leech]

Those were some wise first words out of the newly re-rezzed Durkon :smallamused:

[Kantaki]

Hilgya dear, it's Sylvester.
Don't let a lack of idiocy stop you from starting a firework.:smallbiggrin:

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The surprise on everyone’s face in the afterlife was priceless. Interesting, however, that they have no clue about the planet inside the rift!

The discussion between Hilgya and Durkon is very illuminating. I think Durkon realizes that he went too far, while Hilgya continues to Hilgya.

I’m expecting that the next several strips will tie up the vampire plot threads, and then we’ll probably be pretty close to done with the book.

[HandofShadows]

The Order knows something the Gods do not. :smallcool::smallconfused:

[Peelee]

Well put me down for 50 quatloos on dead.
I like to live dangerously.

That's bold. I like it. Ain't gonna take your money today.

[Bob_McSurly]

I absolutely love Belkar in the last panel. I hope this is the beginning of a beautiful Halfling/Dwarf relationship.

Edit:

I've been envisioning a group of gamblers who have been sweating bets on whether or not Durkon would end the year alive going through a huge emotional rollercoaster with these last two strips.
I feel like 1149 should have been titled "Messing with the death pool thread"
edit again:
"Your funerals"
snigger snigger snigger

[Fyraltari]

That's bold. I like it. Ain't gonna take your money today.

Because you have to wait until tomorrow to be sure ?

[Peelee]

Because you have to wait until tomorrow to be sure ?

Shhh, I'm pretending to be magnanimous over here!

[2D8HP]

:belkar: "I know, right?"

:biggrin:

The Order is back!

A happy new year indeed!

Thank you Rich/The Giant!

Thank you very much!

[Kish]

That's bold. I like it. Ain't gonna take your money today.
I'd take their money, if I valued quatloos. If they want to restate their bet in terms of gold pieces...

[nabcif]

Roy's speech bubble in page 2, panel 7 has an error.

"Unless I'm mistaken, Durkon some of the vampire's little minions were missing from the fight scene, so we're not out of the woods just yet."

There should be a comma after "Durkon".

Oh, thank goodness.

I was very worried; by the time I got around to reading the strip and seeing that, lo these many minutes later, I knew it would already be too late for me to make a first page post.

Mostly kidding.

[Monday]

I'd take their money, if I valued quatloos. If they want to restate their bet in terms of gold pieces...

I seem to remember the last discussion on the quatloo to gp conversion rate going off on quite the tangent. Maybe not by this forum's standards, but still...
I'd think I'll let someone else be the one to derail this thread.



Also, I can't help but wonder whether robed Durkon is going to be a thing now, much the same way V's been rocking that ponytail since their own arc.

Maybe, but I think it's telling that he still shows up in the afterlife in his old armor.

[Kish]

I seem to remember the last discussion on the quatloo to gp conversion rate going off on quite the tangent. Maybe not by this forum's standards, but still...
I'd think I'll let someone else be the one to derail this thread.
Let me rephrase then.

Do you wish to bet any number of gold pieces that Durkon will end the year 2018 dead?

[Phhase]

Eh. Guess it was too much to hope for Hyilga to be remotely rational about this. Good riddance. Poor Kudzu though.

[Elanasaurus]

Let me rephrase then.

Do you wish to bet any number of gold pieces that Durkon will end the year 2018 dead?I don't. It's been 2019 for 3 hours already, over where I am.

Where'd the table go? It was visible in #1149.

[FlawedParadigm]

Let me rephrase then.

Do you wish to bet any number of gold pieces that Durkon will end the year 2018 dead?

In which time zone(s)? Already 2019 in some places.

[ShurikVch]

The gods not knowing about that planet is certainly curious.Elder Evils, Anathematic Secrecy:
This malefic property shrouds an elder evil from discovery by divination spells of a divine origin.
Benefit: Any divine spell of the divination school automatically fails when used to ascertain information about an elder evil. Divination spells that are also arcane function normally if they are cast by a nondivine spellcaster.
This ability is always active.



Could the Snarl have made it's own world over time?https://i.pinimg.com/236x/27/c1/26/27c126cc364c3bb33ed4da077f18c8b1.jpg

[Auguries]

:elan: In my defense I'm not very smart.

Gold.

[SociopathFriend]

I really feel like Durkon could've used an angry V-brow on that last panel. Like come on those are his friends he's spent months (years?) with and nobody but the most shallow and self-centered party member actually caught on?

[Haluesen]

Happy New Year/almost New Year! :smallbiggrin: It's nice to see a new comic to start off the year with, and one that definitely serves to entertain.

I love seeing how much they all really care for Durkon. I mean that was obvious, but still them standing ready to fight for the whole 10 minutes there, and then their reactions once they could really take in that he was back. It was so nice to see! And now, cheers to going to take down some more vampires!

[Stabbey]

Pretty interesting retort from Hilgya that "you can't fix rejection with a 10 minute cleric spell".

Also, I got my 2019 OotS Calendar in the mail today, just in time!

[ref]

Haley talking about storylines is cute.

[Tentreto]

I love that V is conspiciously quiet about Durkon.

Also, Durkon is finally back! Hopefully he grabs some armour soon, or he might not be back too long.

[Fyraltari]

I really feel like Durkon could've used an angry V-brow on that last panel. Like come on those are his friends he's spent months (years?) with and nobody but the most shallow and self-centered party member actually caught on?

He’s just ribbing them, he knows the vampire’s impersonation was near-flawless thanks to ransacking his memories.

[137beth]

Well, Haley did piece together that HPoH lied about which spell he was learning from Malack's staff. Albeit, it took her awhile to do it.

[Alex Warlorn]

'Thoughtless?!'

Hilgya is a spoiled brat!

It's horrible to think this is the woman who is going to raise his child!

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I've been envisioning a group of gamblers who have been sweating bets on whether or not Durkon would end the year alive going through a huge emotional rollercoaster with these last two strips.

The funny thing is that, in the end of 2018, Durkon was dead in some places, and will be alive in other places. So you win and you lose the same bet. It's the...

Schrödinger's bet! :smallcool:


Well, fitting that the last panel of the last strip of the year (for my time zone, at least) has all six members of the Order alive and reunited. Great start for 2019.

Happy New Year, everyone. :smallbiggrin:

[b_jonas]

So we still don't know how much time passed between Greg's destruction and this scene. I'm guessing it wasn't more than a few days though, because of what the dialog says about the counsel of the dwarves.

And yes, if Thor is confused about the planet in the rift, that probably means that the planet is a small plane in which the MitD was exiled from another world long in the past, and has traveled to this world.

[Peelee]

Pretty interesting retort from Hilgya that "you can't fix rejection with a 10 minute cleric spell".


Yeah, it just takes a diplomacy check. Tack on Eagles Splendor if you want. A lot easier than a 10 minute spell.

So we still don't know how much time passed between Greg's destruction and this scene. I'm guessing it wasn't more than a few days though, because of what the dialog says about the counsel of the dwarves.

Probably less than a year.

[Fyraltari]

I’m going to take a risk and say they probably did not go back in time, either.

[Yirggzmb]

He’s just ribbing them, he knows the vampire’s impersonation was near-flawless thanks to ransacking his memories.

Also it didn't help that everyone except Belkar wanted it to just be "Durkon with an alignment change".

[SilverCacaobean]

Durkon really dropped a bomb to the gods there it seems. Last panel was hilarious as was "They're your funerals" :smallbiggrin:. Was a bit surprised he didn't talk more about his son, but it's not over yet. I doubt he'll want to leave Kudzu with Hilgya after this.

The conversation with Hilgya kinda felt like Durkon was talking to the_Weirdo, which either means that Rich actually reads the forum and is commenting on the discussions that have been had here (which if he's actually doing and keeps doing would dramatically drop the quality of the comic in the long run (no offense Weirdo)) or that Hilgya is the_Weirdo's counterpart in the OotS world...

Probably the latter.

[Kish]

Durkon really dropped a bomb to the gods there it seems. Last panel was hilarious as was "They're your funerals" :smallbiggrin:. Was a bit surprised he didn't talk more about his son, but it's not over yet. I doubt he'll want to leave Kudzu with Hilgya after this.

The conversation with Hilgya kinda felt like Durkon was talking to the_Weirdo, which either means that Rich actually reads the forum and is commenting on the discussions that have been had here (which if he's actually doing and keeps doing would dramatically drop the quality of the comic in the long run (no offense Weirdo)) or that Hilgya is the_Weirdo's counterpart in the OotS world...

Probably the latter.
That's not fair to Hilgya. She doesn't bother with elaborate self-justifications. Ultimately, it really is as simple, for her, as: If I hurt you more than you hurt me, good, that means I win.

A difference between Chaotic and Lawful.

[Resileaf]

Fingers crossed that Hilgya gets her comeuppance someday.

[The Pilgrim]

Good to see that Durkon gave Belkar the credit that the halfling deserves.

[Bob_McSurly]

Probably less than a year.
Belkar is still alive! I knew the prophecy was wrong!

Edit:

The conversation with Hilgya kinda felt like Durkon was talking to the_Weirdo, which either means that Rich actually reads the forum and is commenting on the discussions that have been had here (which if he's actually doing and keeps doing would dramatically drop the quality of the comic in the long run (no offense Weirdo)) or that Hilgya is the_Weirdo's counterpart in the OotS world...

Probably the latter.

No, obviously Hilgya escaped from the comic and is trying to spread a reign of fear and terror throughout our civilization....

[dtilque]

So we still don't know how much time passed between Greg's destruction and this scene. I'm guessing it wasn't more than a few days though, because of what the dialog says about the counsel of the dwarves.

Since the Council will take place later in the day that Greg was destroyed, that's pretty certain.

[NobleCuriosity]

Huh. When did Durkon find out about the planet in the rift? I thought he was conspicuously absent every time it came up.

What does Thor do with this information? Is there some way for a god to directly ask a question of their follower? I would have thought so, but I can’t remember a spell for it off the top of my head.

[Heksefatter]

Yay! An early new year's pressie: An OotS comic. Thank you, Giant!

[Gift Jeraff]

Alright, the OOTS is reunited (again) for the new year.

So the world within the world is something unknown to the gods (or at least some of them).

If we trust Redcloak's account of the goblin cleric who looked into Lirian's Rift before it was sealed, it was described as a "jumbled mix of blue and purple strands." Interestingly, the Dark One looks into the rift right after his cleric was destroyed, however what he sees is not exactly described. Redcloak just says "[the Dark One] was able to determine that this 'rift' was actually a tear that lead to another dimension, where there lived a being of unparalleled power and hostility." Going off of that, the 2 main possibilities I see are A) something happened between the goblin's encounter with the Snarl and the present day, and B) the Dark One is hiding knowledge of the world beyond the rifts.

[Mandor]

"Win? This ain't some kinda competition"! - Durkon
"Everything is a competition and the only ones who think otherwise are losers who lose." - Hilgya

"Not everything is a competition you know" - Dovakiin
"Oh, but you are wrong. The only reason you could disagree is because you are losing so badly you cannot see it." - J'zargo


I could not help but read Hilgya in a Khajiit voice.:smallsmile:

[The_Weirdo]

Durkon really dropped a bomb to the gods there it seems. Last panel was hilarious as was "They're your funerals" :smallbiggrin:. Was a bit surprised he didn't talk more about his son, but it's not over yet. I doubt he'll want to leave Kudzu with Hilgya after this.

The conversation with Hilgya kinda felt like Durkon was talking to the_Weirdo, which either means that Rich actually reads the forum and is commenting on the discussions that have been had here (which if he's actually doing and keeps doing would dramatically drop the quality of the comic in the long run (no offense Weirdo)) or that Hilgya is the_Weirdo's counterpart in the OotS world...

Probably the latter.

Really? And was Durkon coming up with reasons why being forced into marriage isn't that bad and why it's oh-so-mean of Hilgya to bankrupt that sex trafficking ring that calls itself her family?

[doctor23]

I notice V has not spoken yet as to reasons for not being able to tell the difference between Durkon and Greg. Also very happy to know that that little problem did not bring Greg back.

[NobleCuriosity]

I think that this is one of the worst moments that we've seen of Hilgya yet. Dismissing Durkon's proposal as "thoughtless" is probably the least accurate and most self-centered thing she could have said there.


Eh...While it doesn’t justify her torturing and maiming him over it, it was in fact pretty thoughtless to turn to the person who (as far as Durkon knew) had escaped an abusive marriage she was forced into for family’s sake and say “It would be terrible to raise my son alone! Marry me and I’ll fix you and everything, for family (Kudzu’s) sake!” Which is pretty much what that speech sounded like to Hilgya after the apology bit.

Also, does someone more DND-savvy than me know if Thor has any options for asking Durkon about the planet in the rift more articulate than a thunderstorm?

Now I’m imagining Thor sending Morse code via thunderclap. W-H-A-T P-L-A-N-E-T? “Wow, that was a lot of lightning!”

[Teioh]

Fingers crossed that Hilgya gets her comeuppance someday.

Agreed. And if she doesn't, I hope the narrative treats her actions far more harshly than it has thus far. This was a rather...tepid condemnation on it's part, if even that much.

[Jasdoif]

I notice V has not spoken yet as to reasons for not being able to tell the difference between Durkon and Greg.Maybe because Vaarsuvius always drew a distinction between them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)

[Mandor]

I think that this is one of the worst moments that we've seen of Hilgya yet. Dismissing Durkon's proposal as "thoughtless" is probably the least accurate and most self-centered thing she could have said there.

Actually .... as much as I hate to, I have to back Hilgya here.

Durkon's proposal was sincere.
Durkon's proposal was made out of love of his son, and love of the concept of family.
Durkon's proposal was fully in line with the traditions of the dwarven people.
Durkon's proposal was 100% consistent with the Durkon Thundershield we all know and love.
Durkon's proposal did not, for one instant, think about what HILGYA wanted.

He assumed all she really wanted was what HE wanted. Even though he should have known from their post-coital confab that she has no use for rules or traditions. He knew she tried to (or at least claimed to have tried) to murder an overly-clingy and unwanted husband several times, and he dove right in and proposed to BECOME such a husband himself.

If Durkon was actually thinking about HILGYA, he would have apologized and perhaps asked her to talk things out over a cup of coffee...er...mug of beer...er... mug of coffee stout.
And he would have tried to get a sense for what she wanted before popping the question.

[Fyraltari]

Eh...While it doesn’t justify her torturing and maiming him over it, it was in fact pretty thoughtless to turn to the person who (as far as Durkon knew) had escaped an abusive marriage she was forced into for family’s sake and say “It would be terrible to raise my son alone! Marry me and I’ll fix you and everything, for family (Kudzu’s) sake!” Which is pretty much what that speech sounded like to Hilgya after the apology bit.

Also, does someone more DND-savvy than me know if Thor has any options for asking Durkon about the planet in the rift more articulate than a thunderstorm?

Now I’m imagining Thor sending Morse code via thunderclap. W-H-A-T P-L-A-N-E-T? “Wow, that was a lot of lightning!”

Norse code!
But really, that’s hilarious.

[masamune1]

"Backing Hilgya" is a bit much, since burning someone alive for proposing to you is just a TAD disproportionate...but yeh, I ca see why she wouldn't want that, and how Durkon wasn't exactly being thoughtful there (although to be fair, he had just went through a stint of vampiric possession, so probably wasn't in the best mindset either).

I think we also need to just accept that murdering someone in a world where you can- and in this case, definitely will- be resurrected on the spot, makes murder less serious in and of itself than in the real world. Murder can be wacky shenanigans in D & D.

[zimmerwald1915]

Maybe because Vaarsuvius always drew a distinction between them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)
Darn, beat me to it.

[Psychronia]

Happy New Year everyone!

A shame that we don't get to see a conversation with Hel, but it was a longshot anyway.
Is it just because it's been so long since we've had Durkon back, or has he actually gotten a bit more sassy with his party? Either way, nice job, Durkon.

Very interesting that the gods don't know about the world in the rifts either. Hmm...

[nineGardens]

I think that this is one of the worst moments that we've seen of Hilgya yet. Dismissing Durkon's proposal as "thoughtless" is probably the least accurate and most self-centered thing she could have said there.

But like.... she's right.
It was thoughtless.

He knows exactly how much she hated being tied to a husband who bought into Dwarvish traditions.
And he is more traditional than most.
He knows that the last time they interacted, he hurt her...
and he didn't even let her get a word in edgewise before proposing.

He didn't LISTEN.
He didn't take her agency seriously.
He was thoughtless.

Or rather... he might have thought about it, but he thought about it in terms of "Duty" in terms of HIS role as a father, not in terms of HER. And when it comes to a marriage proposal, she does actually have the right to demand that her feelings should be considered. It might be self centered, but when talking about HER wedding prospects, it is not unreasonable to expect people to think about her opinion.

[Psyren]

This is just going to stir up even more strife about Hilgya's alignment, isn't it?

Nah, it's pretty much settled - "If I hurt you worse than you hurt me, that means I win." / "Everything is a competition, and the only people who think otherwise are losers who lose." That's pretty textbook evil, the only debate left is CE vs. NE (and I've always found the line between those two to be pretty vague anyway.)


The Order knows something the Gods do not. :smallcool::smallconfused:

The main pantheon doesn't; however, that doesn't mean the Dark One hasn't seen it (heck, one of the first things he did when faced with a rift was peek inside, which we now know was safe-ish for him to do since the Snarl doesn't have any of his quiddity and so probably didn't perceive him.)

What I find particularly interesting - if the world in there is unknown to Thor's group, could it possibly contain some of the green quiddity they thought lost with the Eastern Gods? Maybe they're even in there. Sealing the Snarl away indefinitely could require a 5-color lock.

[Mandor]

"Backing Hilgya" is a bit much, since burning someone alive for proposing to you is just a TAD disproportionate...but yeh, I ca see why she wouldn't want that, and how Durkon wasn't exactly being thoughtful there (although to be fair, he had just went through a stint of vampiric possession, so probably wasn't in the best mindset either).

I think we also need to just accept that murdering someone in a world where you can- and in this case, definitely will- be resurrected on the spot, makes murder less serious in and of itself than in the real world. Murder can be wacky shenanigans in D & D.

Fair point. i meant "Backing Hilgya" in the sense of calling the proposal thoughtless.
Not in the casting of the flamestrike.

Though agreed, murder-plus-immediate-rez is.... I dunno. Several degrees of aggravated assault, at least.

[JumboWheat01]

It's nice to have the Order back together.

[Mordokai]

I was wondering whether we'd get another comic before the year runs its course.

I'm glad we did :smallbiggrin:

Thanks for all your work Rich... here's to hoping we see a lot more of it in the years to come :smallsmile: And a happy new year to you and all the fellow forumites.

[Riarra]

All kinds of fun lines in this strip.



Now I’m imagining Thor sending Morse code via thunderclap. W-H-A-T P-L-A-N-E-T? “Wow, that was a lot of lightning!”

Norse code!
But really, that’s hilarious.

I love it.

[Heksefatter]

But like.... she's right.
It was thoughtless.

He knows exactly how much she hated being tied to a husband who bought into Dwarvish traditions.
And he is more traditional than most.
He knows that the last time they interacted, he hurt her...
and he didn't even let her get a word in edgewise before proposing.

He didn't LISTEN.
He didn't take her agency seriously.
He was thoughtless.

Or rather... he might have thought about it, but he thought about it in terms of "Duty" in terms of HIS role as a father, not in terms of HER. And when it comes to a marriage proposal, she does actually have the right to demand that her feelings should be considered. It might be self centered, but when talking about HER wedding prospects, it is not unreasonable to expect people to think about her opinion.

I fully agree with this. Durkon really was behaving very badly. He could, at the very, very, very least, have let her got a word in to see what she felt and thought about the situation before getting on his knees and proposing.

Needless to say (but I am saying it anyway) Hilgya's response is still horrible.

[zimmerwald1915]

He could, at the very, very, very least, have let her got a word in to see what she felt and thought about the situation before getting on his knees and proposing.
He did. First page, twelfth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.htm). As you say, not a high bar, but let's keep the facts straight, yeh?

[King of Nowhere]

That's not fair to Hilgya. She doesn't bother with elaborate self-justifications. Ultimately, it really is as simple, for her, as: If I hurt you more than you hurt me, good, that means I win.

A difference between Chaotic and Lawful.

I'd say more the difference between good and evil.

for a good person, "i hurt you more than you hurt me" means a loss for everybody involved.

I think hilgya may be a shapeshifted beholder: she has the emotional part of her brain sure of her perfection and it filters everything else from its rational part...

EDIT: also, i wasn't expecting a new oots on new years eve. I assumed rich would be partying.
good think giantitp is my homepage so i spotted it anyway

[Rrmcklin]

But like.... she's right.
It was thoughtless.

He knows exactly how much she hated being tied to a husband who bought into Dwarvish traditions.
And he is more traditional than most.
He knows that the last time they interacted, he hurt her...
and he didn't even let her get a word in edgewise before proposing.

He didn't LISTEN.
He didn't take her agency seriously.
He was thoughtless.

Or rather... he might have thought about it, but he thought about it in terms of "Duty" in terms of HIS role as a father, not in terms of HER. And when it comes to a marriage proposal, she does actually have the right to demand that her feelings should be considered. It might be self centered, but when talking about HER wedding prospects, it is not unreasonable to expect people to think about her opinion.

I feel the need to point out that being forced to marry someone against your will, and being proposed to and perfectly capable of saying no are not the same thing. So equating what happened with Hilgya to all marriage in general is just... yeah.

By that same token, no, you can't seriously claim that Durkon was infringing upon Hilgya's agency. I'll also point out that "get a word in edgewise" implies she actually tried to talk (at least beyond the first point) and didn't want to at least hear out everything he had to say. I also assume the rush to talk was just to get it all out of the way in case she planned on doing something horrible to him, which we already knew he considered highly likely.

All of that being said... yeah, proposing to Hilgya was stupid on his party for more than one reason.

[AstralFire]

Good riddance to that character. Welcome back, Durkon.

[masamune1]

See, the problem is, "I hurt you more than you hurt me= I win" was more of a post hoc rationalisation on her part after burning him alive, rather than why she did that in the first place.

A Chaotic Neutral character can still hold to that philosophy without escalating it to murder or anything like that (and even then, it was comedy murder with resurrection).

It's definitely more an "evil" than "good" philosophy, but that philosophy alone doesn't make her evil, especially since again it was more an excuse to get away from Durkon than the reason she killed him.

[Heksefatter]

He did. First page, twelfth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.htm). As you say, not a high bar, but let's keep the facts straight, yeh?

True dat. Helt gave her the chance to answer a single question, but he didn't really allow her to express what she thought about the situation.

[gerryq]

Yeah, it just takes a diplomacy check. Tack on Eagles Splendor if you want. A lot easier than a 10 minute spell.


Probably less than a year.

If nothing else, the Belkar prophesy supports a shorter timescale.

[SilverCacaobean]

That's not fair to Hilgya. She doesn't bother with elaborate self-justifications. Ultimately, it really is as simple, for her, as: If I hurt you more than you hurt me, good, that means I win.

A difference between Chaotic and Lawful.

Her mentioning it was her right is what made think of TW. Also I'm not sure this particular "everything is a competition" part of her thought process has anything to do with the law-chaos axis.


Really? And was Durkon coming up with reasons why being forced into marriage isn't that bad and why it's oh-so-mean of Hilgya to bankrupt that sex trafficking ring that calls itself her family?

Since I've consistently accused Durkon of being horrible to her that day, I'm not sure why you're telling me this. He's even figured it out himself finally. Also Durkon hasn't commented on Hilgya bankrupting her family. Of course you being wrong has never stopped you from posting before, so I don't know why I bother.


As for the "thoughtless" part... I did think that the second part of last strip's Durkon's speech was a bit sudden and... yeah, thoughtless is the right word. Certainly not deserving of murder, or assault, or bodily harm or whatever. He's spend all this time in his own head, too, so I don't want to be too harsh.

Also happy new year. Imma drink myself into a stupor today. Oh yeah! :smallbiggrin:

[zimmerwald1915]

True dat. Helt gave her the chance to answer a single question, but he didn't really allow her to express what she thought about the situation.
Conversations don't work that way. If you stop talking and give the other person a chance to talk, even if you give them an explicit prompt, you do not have control over what they say.

[Rrmcklin]

See, the problem is, "I hurt you more than you hurt me= I win" was more of a post hoc rationalisation on her part after burning him alive, rather than why she did that in the first place.

A Chaotic Neutral character can still hold to that philosophy without escalating it to murder or anything like that (and even then, it was comedy murder with resurrection).

It's definitely more an "evil" than "good" philosophy, but that philosophy alone doesn't make her evil, especially since again it was more an excuse to get away from Durkon than the reason she killed him.

Or, maybe, just maybe, she already believed that and just wasn't sure how much she was going to hurt him until actually faced with the situation.

You seem to be equating "I wasn't sure what I was going to do" with "I probably wasn't going to hurt you", based on what we've seen of Hilgya, her resorting to violence was always much more likely.

[nocoolnamejim]

Pretty interesting retort from Hilgya that "you can't fix rejection with a 10 minute cleric spell".


Technically, Hilgya both rejected Durkon AND murdered him.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow! That was great. So much fun. Apparently, Durkon is going to have to negotiate visiting rights. I hope someone brought his gear.

[Rrmcklin]

Also, interesting that everyone was just waiting for the word on whether to attack or not. Apparently bringing back Durkon a second time (and also Kudzu being there?) wasn't enough to automatically square things with them.

[Jasdoif]

That's not fair to Hilgya. She doesn't bother with elaborate self-justifications. Ultimately, it really is as simple, for her, as: If I hurt you more than you hurt me, good, that means I win.

A difference between Chaotic and Lawful.Her mentioning it was her right is what made think of TW. Also I'm not sure this particular "everything is a competition" part of her thought process has anything to do with the law-chaos axis.I do believe that's the "elaborate self-justifications" Kish is talking about: Hilgya doesn't feel a need to put together a scenario to justify doing what she wants to do, she just does it.

[masamune1]

I do believe that's the "elaborate self-justifications" Kish is talking about: Hilgya doesn't feel a need to put together a scenario to justify doing what she wants to do, she just does it.

Thing is, she did justify it though- she hurt Durkon because Durkon hurt her, and because that makes her a "winner" and him a "loser" she doesn't have to waste her time / feelings on.

Not very elaborate, granted, but still there.

[kivzirrum]

"In my defense, I am not very smart."

I will always adore Elan. Thanks for once again making me giggle like a buffoon in front of my coworkers, Giant! :smallbiggrin:

[Bongos]

Technically you could say that this version of Durkon is not the father of Kudzu.

Durkon's old body fathered Kudzu. Durkon has a new body now.

Don't know how that would go down on an episode of Maury....

[Jasdoif]

I do believe that's the "elaborate self-justifications" Kish is talking about: Hilgya doesn't feel a need to put together a scenario to justify doing what she wants to do, she just does it.Thing is, she did justify it though- she hurt Durkon because Durkon hurt her, and because that makes her a "winner" and him a "loser" she doesn't have to waste her time / feelings on.

Not very elaborate, granted, but still there.That would be why I used the word "scenario", yes.

[masamune1]

Technically you could say that this version of Durkon is not the father of Kudzu.

Durkon's old body fathered Kudzu. Durkon has a new body now.

Don't know how that would go down on an episode of Maury....

Don't they need his bones / corpse to resurrect him though?

Seems like it IS his body, fully healed.

[Fyraltari]

Good riddance to that character. Welcome back, Durkon.
What do you mean? Hilgya isn't gone.

If nothing else, the Belkar prophesy supports a shorter timescale.


Also, interesting that everyone was just waiting for the word on whether to attack or not. Apparently bringing back Durkon a second time (and also Kudzu being there?) wasn't enough to automatically square things with them.

It's his problems, so he decides what the right course of action is. Friends support your decisions, they don't make them for you.

[Bob_McSurly]

Has Haley called Durkon "big guy" before? That seems like it would be some kind of insult or something for a dwarf. Even if not, it seems a little belittling.

[masamune1]

What do you mean? Hilgya isn't gone.



I think she is. We see her walk off, after saying "Now we're done".

[Bongos]

Don't they need his bones / corpse to resurrect him though?

Seems like it IS his body, fully healed.

They only had his ashes after he was killed as a vampire.

Also I'm kind of referencing a joke Roy made earlier with his girlfriend Celia.

[Heksefatter]

He did. First page, twelfth panel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1149.htm). As you say, not a high bar, but let's keep the facts straight, yeh?


Conversations don't work that way. If you stop talking and give the other person a chance to talk, even if you give them an explicit prompt, you do not have control over what they say.

Actually they do work like that. If you ask such a pointed question, you are still seeking to control the discussion. If we take things that literally, it doesn't matter if Durkon actually asked her a question or not, since he did not outright prevent her from interrupting his monologue.

[Verappo]

Yay, so glad there was another strip right before the end of the year!

And uh, I guess Thor's comment means things are still as complicated as they were before, if not more. Is this veering into a "the Snarl can create worlds of its own" territory? What would be the metanarrative meaning of that, given its role as a stand-in for conflict and disunity?

Also very excited to see how the rest of this arc wraps up, since we seem to have confirmation that the order hasn't fought the exarch yet.

[AstralFire]

What do you mean? Hilgya isn't gone.

There's a possibility she comes back shortly so they can figure out what to do with Kudzu as I feel like that's a big issue for Durkon, but she's no longer involved in this part of the scene, it looks like. And thank goodness for that.

[masamune1]

I've always just assumed that the Snarl doesn't actually destroy worlds as the gods think, and that all of those worlds still actually exist, so what they saw was just one of those worlds.

[faustin]

Be glad, Durkon. Compared with a life married to that spoiled brat, you got off easy. Just ask her ex.

[Rrmcklin]

I've always just assumed that the Snarl doesn't actually destroy worlds as the gods think, and that all of those worlds still actually exist, so what they saw was just one of those worlds.

That twist wouldn't make any sense. The Snarl most definitely kills people, so what would be the point of having a billion empty worlds? It's a very unsatisfying twist.

[woweedd]

This is just going to stir up even more strife about Hilgya's alignment, isn't it?
I thought the comic was pretty clear she's in the wrong on this one and, though Durkon was tactless, her response was not appropriate, and she doesn't care about it. That her view of humanoid interaction is an unhealthy and toxic one that leads to a philosophy of "the strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must."

...So yeah, we're totally gonna debate it.:smallsigh:

I wonder what TW thinks, considering H's stated philosophy here seems pretty opposed to his.

[NobleCuriosity]

Okay, I looked it up myself. Thor is clearly at least Divine rank 1, so by strict 3.5e DnD deity rules, he should be able to use the Remote Communication deity ability + Remote sensing to ask Durkon what was up with the planet in the rift if he wanted to. Telepathically and straight to Durkon if he wants, so it shouldn’t obviously interfere with things.

But since Haley also worships Thor now (well...if that conversion counts), he should have been able to do that to tell the Order about the Vampire. So most likely the same covenants that created the Godsmoot tie his hands here.

Any other ideas about how Thor might find out about the world in the rift?

[placeholdername]

How does Durkon know about the planet in the snarl? Can someone please remind me?

I remember Blackwing telling V who told Roy. Then the party saw water inside Girard's hole (but before V told Roy), but Durkon was absent (but then he showed up undead). I kind of remember Roy talking about this on the airship, but when, and was Durkon there?

And on this last panel, is 'imposter' a different word from 'impostor'?

(edited because of factual inaccuracy)

[ratfox]

Huh. When did Durkon find out about the planet in the rift? I thought he was conspicuously absent every time it came up.

Yes, I have some memory of V telling it to Roy and Roy only. Not sure what Durkula would have done out of it. Nothing I guess, since his plan would have been too annihilate everything anyway.

[Resileaf]

Greg would have seen the rift in the desert, which means Durkon also would have.

[Linneris]

I hope Hilgya gets her comeuppance eventually when the Order isn't busy with an immediate, literally world-ending threat.

[PlaguetheRoamer]

Christ. That was completely out of order. **** this b*tch. The world is ending and you want to waste it on petty comebacks? I get that you need to say your piece, despite what anyone else thinks. But you already humiliated him once by rejecting his proposal with the flamestrike. What was turning around and going "and another thing!" going to achieve?

[Ruck]

So we still don't know how much time passed between Greg's destruction and this scene. I'm guessing it wasn't more than a few days though, because of what the dialog says about the counsel of the dwarves.

I'd dare suggest it is still the morning before the Council of Clans meets.


The conversation with Hilgya kinda felt like Durkon was talking to the_Weirdo, which either means that Rich actually reads the forum and is commenting on the discussions that have been had here (which if he's actually doing and keeps doing would dramatically drop the quality of the comic in the long run (no offense Weirdo)) or that Hilgya is the_Weirdo's counterpart in the OotS world...

Probably the latter.

Oh, I think it's as simple has "Hilgya and The_Weirdo share a morality," which is, in a sense, what he's been trying to tell us all along.


Maybe because Vaarsuvius always drew a distinction between them. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html)

I still laugh at "Oh my, what a completely unprecedented reaction to spending more than ten minutes in your company," especially since Belkar has to acknowledge V has a point.


Huh. When did Durkon find out about the planet in the rift? I thought he was conspicuously absent every time it came up.

My default assumption in any case like this is that members of the Order share relevant information with each other off-panel.


Greg would have seen the rift in the desert, which means Durkon also would have.

Oh, that makes sense, too.

[GrayDeath]

Well, that got philosophical fast....

Also welcome back, Durkon.

Lets see how long it lasts (as as shown, he is needed to make the Gods aware of another ... Plot Hole ^^

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually they do work like that. If you ask such a pointed question, you are still seeking to control the discussion. If we take things that literally, it doesn't matter if Durkon actually asked her a question or not, since he did not outright prevent her from interrupting his monologue.
Don't move the goalposts. Your claim was not about whether Durkon asked a question or sought to control the discussion. Your claim was that Durkon never "let her [get] a word in" - in other words, your claim was that he "outright prevented her from interrupting his monologue." In fact he stopped talking and stood stock still long enough for the beat to get represented as a no-dialogue panel.

That pause was indeed preceded by a question, and you're right, such questions are meant to prompt a response on-point. But all they are is, as you say, an attempt to control the discussion. They do not foreclose any other response.

[SilverCacaobean]

Be glad, Durkon. Compared with a life married to that spoiled brat, you got off easy. Just ask her ex.

This is the second time I've seen people call her "spoiled brat" in this thread. I've also seen people call her that in other threads. Care to explain how she's a "spoiled brat", anyone who calls her that? No, actually wait, don't explain. I don't want to know what kind of tortured logic would lead to that characterization. Hilgya is a lot of things but that one insult seems to be coming out of nowhere. Seems.

[Fyraltari]

I think she is. We see her walk off, after saying "Now we're done".
You really think a character that important to Durkon is going to walk off the scene mid-page? And without settling Kuzdu’s case?

She is still in that scene, and she won’t go away for a little while now, even if she thinks they’re done (they aren’t).

[The_Weirdo]

I hope Hilgya gets her comeuppance eventually when the Order isn't busy with an immediate, literally world-ending threat.

Maybe by being forced to marry someone and have a bunch of people jump through hoops to come up with reasons why it's her fault somehow?

[Ruck]

This is the second time I've seen people call her "spoiled brat" in this thread. I've also seen people call her that in other threads. Care to explain how she's a "spoiled brat", anyone who calls her that? No, actually wait, don't explain. I don't want to know what kind of tortured logic would lead to that characterization. Hilgya is a lot of things but that one insult seems to be coming out of nowhere. Seems.

I'm assuming it's from the attitude that her needs are all that matters and any use of force or violence toward people who don't cater to them is acceptable. I don't believe she got that way by being spoiled, though.

[The_Weirdo]

I'm assuming it's from the attitude that her needs are all that matters and any use of force or violence toward people who don't cater to them is acceptable. I don't believe she got that way by being spoiled, though.

Indeed, the one "valuable lesson" she'd have learned from her family in this scenario wasn't learned by being spoiled or pampered, but by being taught directly that the strong (at the time her family) do what they will and that the weak (at the time herself) do what they must...

ETA: I've seen "spoiled brat" thrown at victims of other mistreatments, especially victims of group mistreatments against themselves that dared speak out. Symptomatic.

[nocoolnamejim]

Maybe by being forced to marry someone and have a bumch of people jump through hoops to come up with reasons why it's her fault somehow?

By that logic, people who have bad things happen to them have an unlimited Get Out of Blame free card for turning around and doing bad things to others.

Hilgya's past helps explain how she became the sort of person she is, but ultimately she's still responsible for her actions going forward.

For example, her past helps explain why she felt the need to Flame Strike Durkon in response to his idiotic marriage proposal, but it doesn't make that the right response instead of rejecting him, telling him off in some way, and then moving on.

[NobleCuriosity]

Lets see how long it lasts (as as shown, he is needed to make the Gods aware of another ... Plot Hole ^^


Heh heh heh. Nice.

Yeah, by the 3.5e deity rules, Thor should be able to use Divine abilities to outright ask Durkon what he meant by that right now, but the rules with the other deities may be tying his hands with respect to that, since otherwise he could’ve told them about the vampire (since Haley worships Thor now.).

Which leaves it rather unclear how exactly Durkon’s going to know to use that spell to contact Thor about it.

[The_Weirdo]

By that logic, people who have bad things happen to them have an unlimited Get Out of Blame free card for turning around and doing bad things to others.

Hilgya's past helps explain how she became the sort of person she is, but ultimately she's still responsible for her actions going forward.

For example, her past helps explain why she felt the need to Flame Strike Durkon in response to his idiotic marriage proposal, but it doesn't make that the right response instead of rejecting him, telling him off in some way, and then moving on.

And at this point I'm not even defending the action. I'm just pointing out that the vitriol thrown at Hilgya is quite amazing. Especially in a comic where Andromeda just got a slap on the wrist for all the damage she did in an actual mutiny and no one seems to mind that.

[Lheticus]

:durkon::Tha second hardest part was knowin' only Belkar could tell tha diff'rence b'tween me an' an evil spirit! I mean, Belkar? Seriously??

Let it be known to all that on this day, Durkon hath said what we had all been thinking for at least 100 strips.

[Sniccups]

Norse code!


One of the best puns I have seen in weeks.

[nocoolnamejim]

And at this point I'm not even defending the action. I'm just pointing out that the vitriol thrown at Hilgya is quite amazing. Especially in a comic where Andromeda just got a slap on the wrist for all the damage she did in an actual mutiny and no one seems to mind that.

I think at that point everyone was just so relieved to have Andromeda out of our lives and out of the strip that people decided to let it drop. She WAS punished after all. Not as extensively as some might have hoped, but it wasn't as if she got off with no comeuppance.

Your post about Hilgya's past implied that her past was already her comeuppance. I was pointing out that what happened in the past does not rule her out from facing the consequences of her actions in the present. The two are connected only insofar as they help explain her actions. Past bad things happening to her is not punishment for present crimes.

[The_Weirdo]

I think at that point everyone was just so relieved to have Andromeda out of our lives and out of the strip that people decided to let it drop. She WAS punished after all. Not as extensively as some might have hoped, but it wasn't as if she got off with no comeuppance.

Your post about Hilgya's past implied that her past was already her comeuppance. I was pointing out that what happened in the past does not rule her out from facing the consequences of her actions in the present. The two are connected only insofar as they help explain her actions. Past bad things happening to her is not punishment for present crimes.

Well, she committed exactly two arguably-Evil actions:

1- Joining Nale and murdering that faerie.
2- Killing Durkon. Well, after rezzing him. And then rezzing him again.

She might be punished for the first somehow, but I'd not hold my breath - people such as that gnome druid weren't. Durkon seemingly forgave her for the latter.

And bankrupting her family was a Neutral or Good act.

[jwhouk]

The World in the Snarl is going to be the key to all this, isn't it?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The World in the Snarl is going to be the key to all this, isn't it?

A key possibly. I doubt it will be the key

Grey Wolf

[Ruck]

By that logic, people who have bad things happen to them have an unlimited Get Out of Blame free card for turning around and doing bad things to others.

Yes, that's basically where he's been this entire time.


And at this point I'm not even defending the action. I'm just pointing out that the vitriol thrown at Hilgya is quite amazing.

Frankly I think more people are frustrated with your defenses of her than the character herself.

[Pablo360]

Your claim was that Durkon never "let her [get] a word in" - in other words, your claim was that he "outright prevented her from interrupting his monologue."

Because as everyone knows, humans are exactly like computers in that whenever we talk we mean each word 100% literally, never engaging in hyperbole or metaphor.

[nocoolnamejim]

Well, she committed exactly two arguably-Evil actions:

1- Joining Nale and murdering that faerie.
2- Killing Durkon. Well, after rezzing him. And then rezzing him again.

She might be punished for the first somehow, but I'd not hold my breath - people such as that gnome druid weren't. Durkon seemingly forgave her for the latter.

And bankrupting her family was a Neutral or Good act.

Don't forget nearly getting her child killed by using it as a breastplate.

[Pablo360]

<snip>

Arson and murder are one thing, but jaywalking? What a b***h. She should be out fixing the world somehow even though she is probably only vaguely aware that it's in danger if at all, not wrapping up her plot thread with Durkon and making it clear why she literally killed him barely ten minutes ago.

[King of Nowhere]

Indeed, the one "valuable lesson" she'd have learned from her family in this scenario wasn't learned by being spoiled or pampered, but by being taught directly that the strong (at the time her family) do what they will and that the weak (at the time herself) do what they must...

ETA: I've seen "spoiled brat" thrown at victims of other mistreatments, especially victims of group mistreatments against themselves that dared speak out. Symptomatic.

on the other hand, she did not learn that people acting like that make the world miserable for everyone, including eventually themselves.

And indeed, "spoiled" can refer to a backstory or to an attitude. If we call "spoiled" a person who was pampered, then indeed hilgya is not. if we call "spoiled" a person who acts greedy and selfish like he's the most important person in the world, then hilgya is spoiled.
At least in italian the word has both meaning, so calling hilgya spoiled is perfectly correct. I just checked wikitionary, and english only has one definition which encompasses both italian meanings, so maybe in english the word "spoiled" has a slightly more strict meaning and is not accurate there. it probably varies according to social group.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Don't forget nearly getting her child killed by using it as a breastplate.

Or when she bankrupted an entire clan just to get back to three of its members. Or when she planned to burn down a clan hall to expedite a divorce. Or, my particular favorite, when she attempted to murder another dwarf for offering too many foot massages.

Grey Wolf

[Jasdoif]

A key possibly. I doubt it will be the keyCould be a lock, and finding its key will be the...key.

[Kish]

Yes, that's basically where he's been this entire time.



Frankly I think more people are frustrated with your defenses of her than the character herself.
Indeed, at this point he's probably the worst thing that ever happened to Hilgya's general perception on this forum.

[Obscuraphile]

Now we run into the problem of where the Hel is Durkon's gear?!

[King of Nowhere]

btw, grey wolf, just noticed the last addition at the end of your signature. nice cato reference there!

[nocoolnamejim]

Or when she bankrupted an entire clan just to get back to three of its members. Or when she planned to burn down a clan hall to expedite a divorce. Or, my particular favorite, when she attempted to murder another dwarf for offering too many foot massages.

Grey Wolf

Yep. Or all of those things.

Or the times she's outright explained her philosophy towards life. The explanation in and of itself isn't evil, but it adds significantly to the likelihood that these are just the evil things she's done THAT WE KNOW ABOUT.

[masamune1]

on the other hand, she did not learn that people acting like that make the world miserable for everyone, including eventually themselves.

And indeed, "spoiled" can refer to a backstory or to an attitude. If we call "spoiled" a person who was pampered, then indeed hilgya is not. if we call "spoiled" a person who acts greedy and selfish like he's the most important person in the world, then hilgya is spoiled.
At least in italian the word has both meaning, so calling hilgya spoiled is perfectly correct. I just checked wikitionary, and english only has one definition which encompasses both italian meanings, so maybe in english the word "spoiled" has a slightly more strict meaning and is not accurate there. it probably varies according to social group.

I believe the word people are looking for with Hilgya is "entitled".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

btw, grey wolf, just noticed the last addition at the end of your signature. nice cato reference there!
Thanks!


Yep. Or all of those things.

Or the times she's outright explained her philosophy towards life. The explanation in and of itself isn't evil, but it adds significantly to the likelihood that these are just the evil things she's done THAT WE KNOW ABOUT.

Yep, all those as well. And probably more we are forgetting

Grey Wolf

[hroþila]

Maybe if we had seen Hilgya actually freak out all "oh my gawds what have I done??!"-like after any of the non-lethal, unpremeditated Evil things she's done, the point where the comparison with Andi makes sense would start to appear in the horizon. For the lethal and/or premeditated stuff she's done, I'm afraid that wouldn't suffice.

[Doug Lampert]

btw, grey wolf, just noticed the last addition at the end of your signature. nice cato reference there!


Thanks!

I'd failed to notice it till King of Nowere pointed it out, it is nice.

How would you translate: "Furthermore, I consider that Hilgya is a wrongdoer," or did you have something else in mind?

[masamune1]

I think it's more down to how people are defining Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil themselves rather than anything the Giant has or hasn't made clear. There are CN characters in D & D who have done worse things than she has (for more justified reasons), or who follow her general life philosophy (without being quite so murderous), and then you have to factor in various settings (she might qualify as CN if OotS were an uber-grimdark setting, for example, if only by comparison). It's understandable that people get them blurred at times, particularly with someone who is at least more Chaotic than Evil, despite being Chaotic Evil.

Guess it helps that most of her evil crimes were either offscreen or played for laughs; tragic backstory doesn't hurt either.

[Agi Hammerthief]

and a happy (nearly) new year everyone!

[Rrmcklin]

I think it's more down to how people are defining Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil themselves rather than anything the Giant has or hasn't made clear. There are CN characters in D & D who have done worse things than she has (for more justified reasons), or who follow her general life philosophy (without being quite so murderous), and then you have to factor in various settings (she might qualify as CN if OotS were an uber-grimdark setting, for example, if only by comparison). It's understandable that people get them blurred at times, particularly with someone who is at least more Chaotic than Evil, despite being Chaotic Evil.

Guess it helps that most of her evil crimes were either offscreen or played for laughs; tragic backstory doesn't hurt either.

I feel like this a big thing you're missing, it doesn't even matter if Hilgya's philosophy is inherently evil if the way she implements it is. And equating rejecting someone to burning them alive is evil.

And before you say it, yes, I know you're think she's Chaotic Evil. That doesn't change you downplaying the actual evil of her actions.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'd failed to notice it till King of Nowere pointed it out, it is nice.

How would you translate: "Furthermore, I consider that Hilgya is a wrongdoer," or did you have something else in mind?

The target was “furthermore, I consider that Hilgya is Evil”, but took Fyraltari’s advice to use malefica rather than mala. (Any mistakes remain my own)

Grey Wolf

[eilandesq]

So at this point:

--Durkon is down an extra level from the spite killing, will be down to a hit point total equal to his current level, and will lose half of his remaining memorized spells just when the OotS is going into a conflict where literally the fate of the world is at stake--and where Hilgya seems to be wandering off and showing no further interest. Yeah, Hilgya is a (Chaotic Evil) brat, will be a horrible parent, and I sort of wish that she'd given the Order an excuse to obliterate her (and good for Durkon for clearly being willing to go along with it until she made it clear she was standing down because she's a Chaotic Evil brat, not a complete moron);

--at least Thor and Odin have no clue about the world inside the world, which says some interesting things about divine ability to see things that are clearly visible to view (and hearing--Roy and the others were openly discussing the nature of the rift in the desert and what was inside);

--the good news is that the probable main barrier at this point is that the Order will have to jump through some more rules hoops instead of just going in and straight up dusting all of the vampires.

[Fyraltari]

One of the best puns I have seen in weeks.
Why, thank you.


The World in the Snarl is going to be the key to all this, isn't it?
Probably. I can’t see how. Unless it’s a «*give the goblins their own world*» deal. But I hope not.


Frankly I think more people are frustrated with your defenses of her than the character herself.
Yes, yes, three times yes

Yep, all those as well. Anns probably more we are forgetting

Smiling while Nale makes shish-kebab out of Celia’s friend?

[Svata]

Good riddance to that character. Welcome back, Durkon.

Hilgya, Thor, Odin, Minrah, or Greg?

[KorvinStarmast]

'Thoughtless?!' Hilgya is a spoiled brat! It's horrible to think this is the woman who is going to raise his child! Not your problem. Not mine. Neither of us sired that child. (Also, it's a comic strip ....)

For Strip 1150: Thank You Giant! That got a big old grin out of me, particularly the last panel.
Belkar's one liner about Elan's dump stat confirmed.

[MReav]

This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) shows when Durkon might have learned of the planet. It's not like V and Blackwing were being quiet and it's a smallish boat, meaning everyone on board likely knows (even if they don't necessarily understand the implication).

[nocoolnamejim]

Hilgya, Thor, Odin, Minrah, or Greg?

Kind of hoping that Minrah becomes a new junior member of the Order. Granted, she's almost certainly not at their level, but her choosing to go back to help rather than go straight to paradise should be rewarded somehow.

That's Durkon level selflessness.

[The_Weirdo]

There are CN characters in D & D who have done worse things than she has (for more justified reasons)

Welp, the two Neutrals, Gannji and Enor, hunt people because they want money...

[ti'esar]

Indeed, at this point he's probably the worst thing that ever happened to Hilgya's general perception on this forum.

Even after this latest strip, I still feel like The_Weirdo's characterization of Hilgya is noticeably more evil than Hilgya herself.

[masamune1]

I feel like this a big thing you're missing, it doesn't even matter if Hilgya's philosophy is inherently evil if the way she implements it is. And equating rejecting someone to burning them alive is evil.

And before you say it, yes, I know you're think she's Chaotic Evil. That doesn't change you downplaying the actual evil of her actions.

It does matter, because that's the specific point I was arguing. Anything else is misunderstanding my argument.

[Gift Jeraff]

This comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0672.html) shows when Durkon might have learned of the planet. It's not like V and Blackwing were being quiet and it's a smallish boat, meaning everyone on board likely knows (even if they don't necessarily understand the implication).

I think it's pretty clear that the rest of the OOTS had no idea about it until #900 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0900.html). #920 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0920.html) is when Durkon could have plausibly overheard Roy and V talking about it, and #946 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0946.html) shows Roy was comfortable talking about it with the whole party and even in front of the Mechane crew ("Maybe we're not really saving the world from destruction.") since he didn't realize Durkon was absent until after he was done with his speech.

[Psyren]

I thought the comic was pretty clear she's in the wrong on this one and, though Durkon was tactless, her response was not appropriate, and she doesn't care about it. That her view of humanoid interaction is an unhealthy and toxic one that leads to a philosophy of "the strong do what they will, the weak suffer what they must."

...So yeah, we're totally gonna debate it.:smallsigh:

Nailed it!



Probably. I can’t see how. Unless it’s a «*give the goblins their own world*» deal. But I hope not.

The fact that (a) it's inside the Snarl's dimension and (b) the current pantheon apparently doesn't know about it, suggests to me that it's got the lost green quiddity in its makeup.

[AstralFire]

Hilgya, Thor, Odin, Minrah, or Greg?

Hilgya. Greg as well.


And at this point I'm not even defending the action. I'm just pointing out that the vitriol thrown at Hilgya is quite amazing. Especially in a comic where Andromeda just got a slap on the wrist for all the damage she did in an actual mutiny and no one seems to mind that.

I recall quite a lot of dislike for Andromeda and dismay that she was not as interesting a foil as she initially seemed.

I will agree that some of the vitriol towards Hilgya is off-base; I would not use the words 'entitled' or 'spoiled' or 'brat' to describe her. She's a terrible person with a simplistic, transactional mindset and an awful life prior. My deep distaste for her comes in a few points:

- I thought she'd be more nuanced. Honestly I was pretty set-up to sympathize with her initially. She is clearly not a high Wis cleric, though.
- Her gags directly stalled the 5 year wait for a character who I didn't initially much care for, but came to feel a lot of sympathy for. He's been a literal prisoner in his own brain, and just got out of it via suicide only to be immediately rehomicided.

It's pretty common for the forum not to like 'obstacle' characters towards the end of arcs as I recall (Kubota comes to mind.)

On another note, I enjoyed Minrah. Not sure how I feel about Thor or Odin. They were. There, I guess. Served a useful plot purpose and I enjoyed Thor because Durkon did.

[Gluteus_Maximus]

Durkon with white magic? It feels like it's been ages, I'm so used to black. Also, happy birthday me with this comic.


- I thought she'd be more nuanced. Honestly I was pretty set-up to sympathize with her initially. She is clearly not a high Wis cleric, though.

Probably why she fell victim to Greg's Domination Gaze.

I can sympathize with that notion that I thought she'd be more nuanced. She's annoying, more annoying than Andi ever was, especially since she gave Durkon a whole unrestorable negative level by flaming him. And she's so jaded that she thought Durkon's proposal was empty, and she must have the deafened condition because she doesn't listen to anything Durkon's said without 2 bags full of salt and casually commits questionable acts like completely bankrupting her family. She's totally CN, the boring-est alignment. You do things because you want to just because, and you don't think about the repercussions.

[Mad Humanist]

Huh. When did Durkon find out about the planet in the rift? I thought he was conspicuously absent every time it came up.

What does Thor do with this information? Is there some way for a god to directly ask a question of their follower? I would have thought so, but I can’t remember a spell for it off the top of my head.

Did anybody address this? It seems like a really good question to me.

Also it looks as if Hilgya is walking away from the party in the last panel she appears. I can't believe we've seen the last of her though.

[The_Weirdo]

She's totally CN, the boring-est alignment. You do things because you want to just because, and you don't think about the repercussions.

While I agree that she's CN, CNs aren't "do what you want to just because". Or, rather, at least effective CNs aren't that. That would be Chaotic Stupid...

[nocoolnamejim]

Did anybody address this? It seems like a really good question to me.

Also it looks as if Hilgya is walking away from the party in the last panel she appears. I can't believe we've seen the last of her though.

I don't think she'll walk away for good. She's been informed that the entire planet is at risk, which directly impacts her. Her motives may not be the most pure, but I think she intends to stick around and continue to help the team since she personally lives on the planet and isn't interested in her or her baby dying.

Here's a question.

If Kudzu dies because she's wearing him on her chest into battle, does that count as an honorable death? I wouldn't consider him to be actually participating in the battle, rather more of a spectator/innocent bystander.

So if, god forbid, he were to die because of her monumental stupidity, does he go to Hel or Valhalla?

[Fyraltari]

While I agree that she's CN
So, what she said didn’t strike you as evil in the least?

I don't think she'll walk away for good. She's been informed that the entire planet is at risk, which directly impacts her. Her motives may not be the most pure, but I think she intends to stick around and continue to help the team since she personally lives on the planet and isn't interested in her or her baby dying.

Here's a question.

If Kudzu dies because she's wearing him on her chest into battle, does that count as an honorable death? I wouldn't consider him to be actually participating in the battle, rather more of a spectator/innocent bystander.

So if, god forbid, he were to die because of her monumental stupidity, does he go to Hel or Valhalla?
According to current available info I would say Hel, but knowing the Giant (which I don’t) if he ever adresses dwarven child death (Probably never in comic) there will be a loophole of sort because he doesn’t seem to be the kind of person who writes about infants in Hel(l).

[AstralFire]

I don't think she'll walk away for good. She's been informed that the entire planet is at risk, which directly impacts her. Her motives may not be the most pure, but I think she intends to stick around and continue to help the team since she personally lives on the planet and isn't interested in her or her baby dying.

Here's a question.

If Kudzu dies because she's wearing him on her chest into battle, does that count as an honorable death? I wouldn't consider him to be actually participating in the battle, rather more of a spectator/innocent bystander.

So if, god forbid, he were to die because of her monumental stupidity, does he go to Hel or Valhalla?

I do not think Mr. Burlew would write a narrative where babies go to hell under any circumstance except with the explicit goal of ending that situation. I have no specific evidence to cite, just my read.

[KorvinStarmast]

Fingers crossed that Hilgya gets her comeuppance someday. It doesn't matter. Really. She's not a main character.
Actually .... as much as I hate to, I have to back Hilgya here.
Great points on Durkon being tone deaf. Hilgya, on the other hand, is tone deaf squared. As shown in this strip.
Has Haley called Durkon "big guy" before? That seems like it would be some kind of insult or something for a dwarf. Even if not, it seems a little belittling. If you are going to try that hard to find outrage, I'd recommend putting that energy into something more positive.

Be glad, Durkon. Compared with a life married to that spoiled brat, you got off easy. Just ask her ex. Fair point.
I hope Hilgya gets her comeuppance eventually when the Order isn't busy with an immediate, literally world-ending threat. She is no longer relevant. The story isn't about her.
I recall quite a lot of dislike for Andromeda My dislike for Andy was rooted in her attacking the captain of her ship during a battle. sue me, I am a Navy vet. Beyond that she's a secondary or tertiary character who fulfills her role well enough, and as an engineer, there's at least some empathy for her PoV for all things not involving attacking Bandana during a battle.

[ross]

Wow, murdering somebody because they rejected you? "Entitled" doesn't really suffice. Get therapy.

[The Aboleth]

Well, she committed exactly two arguably-Evil actions:

1- Joining Nale and murdering that faerie.
2- Killing Durkon. Well, after rezzing him. And then rezzing him again.

These are not "arguably" Evil actions. They are just straight-up Evil.


And bankrupting her family was a Neutral or Good act.

Quick, somebody tell the feds to let Bernie Madoff out of jail since intentionally bankrupting people for personal gain is apparently a Good thing!*



*Sarcasm, obviously.

[zimmerwald1915]

So, what she said didn’t strike you as evil in the least?
Proclaiming an ideology strikes me as irrelevant to alignment in OOTS. And Mr. Burlew has demonstrated on numerous occasions the he sets the bar for Good lower, and Evil higher, than I would, making his conception of Neutrality far broader than mine. If she wasn't a legacy LG character, and all the context I had was this book, I'd suspect that she was CN.

[Resileaf]

It doesn't matter. Really. She's not a main character.

So what? A world gets fleshed out by its secondary characters.

[jwhouk]

A key possibly. I doubt it will be the key

Grey Wolf


Actually, it may be something unexpected: something that our halfling Scribbler Serini wrote down in her book that Xykon knows about...

Heck, maybe the world within the Snarl is being controlled by... Kraagor?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Mr. Burlew has demonstrated on numerous occasions the he sets the bar for Good lower, and Evil higher, than I would, making his conception of Neutrality far broader than mine.

Wouldn't that make it narrower? Or do you place Good below Evil?

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

So what? A world gets fleshed out by its secondary characters. A comeuppance for a secondary character isn't necessary. Though, for example, in Miko's case it was a well constructed element of the narrative. (Likewise with Tarquin, in terms of his being so frustrated that he didn't get his way as the order sailed off into the sunset on the Mechane)

[zimmerwald1915]

Wouldn't that make it narrower? Or do you place Good below Evil?

Grey Wolf
I imagined the midpoint of Neutral as the floor, and Good and Evil as two separate parallel bars above the floor.

[Fyraltari]

Proclaiming an ideology strikes me as irrelevant to alignment in OOTS. Maybe, but it does offer perspective on hat mindset which causes her actions. Alignment is about one’s values and while it’s possible to say one thing and do another, she isn’t contradicting herself here.

[NobleCuriosity]

Did anybody address this? It seems like a really good question to me.



Why thanks! I went and looked up the 3.5e deity rules online. The following two abilities seemed relevant:

“”Remote Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.

Once a deity chooses a remote location to sense, it automatically receives sensory information from that location until it chooses a new location to sense, or until it can’t sense the location.””

And perhaps most important:

“”Remote Communication
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.””

The problem with this literal reading of the rules is that, since Haley is now also a worshipper if Thor (assuming that counts), Thor should have been able to just TELL the order about the vampire instead of sending a storm after the ship. So, I would guess that one of the whole specific rules associated with the Godsmoot and everything is that they can’t just do that.



Also of note is this ability Hel should also have access to:
“”Block Sensing
As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can block the sensing ability of other deities of its rank or lower. This power extends for a radius of one mile per rank of the deity, or within the same distance around a temple or other locale sacred to the deity, or the same distance around a portfolio-related event. The deity can block two remote locations at once, plus the area within one mile of itself. The blockage lasts 1 hour per divine rank””

Still, I’d be surprised if nothing EVER came of this revelation, so it’s cool to speculate on other ways Thor might get or give a clarification here.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I imagined Neutral as the floor, and Good and Evil as two separate parallel bars above the floor.

OK, that still doesn't make the "making Neutral broader" comment any more logical. Wouldn't one of said bars being lower while the other being higher even out?

Grey Wolf

[King of Nowhere]

So, what she said didn’t strike you as evil in the least?



I think some people from gaming parties are used to "CN" murderhobos who are really CE but are calling themselves CN because some DM don't want them to play CE characters. Said murderhobos behave more or less like hilgya, except they are protagonist and justify all they do as "i'm chaotic, i do what i want".

So some people tend to have a different concept of what is a chaotic neutral

[zimmerwald1915]

OK, that still doesn't make the "making Neutral broader" comment any more logical. Wouldn't one of said bars being lower while the other being higher even out?

Grey Wolf
Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.

[Jasdoif]

So if, god forbid, he were to die because of her monumental stupidity, does he go to Hel or Valhalla?Since you ask....

If you really need an answer, let's say that babies go wherever their mother is/will go, because of the psychic umbilical cord that stretches through the Uterine Plane. When you get older and determine your own alignment, marauding githyanki doctors with special silver clamps cut the cord. Because why not?

[Fyraltari]

I think some people from gaming parties are used to "CN" murderhobos who are really CE but are calling themselves CN because some DM don't want them to play CE characters. Said murderhobos behave more or less like hilgya, except they are protagonist and justify all they do as "i'm chaotic, i do what i want".

So some people tend to have a different concept of what is a chaotic neutral
Their hypocrisy is not my problem.

Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.
D&D treats Good and Evil as equal and opposites (I think) so having a lower bar for one than the other is wrong. And if you are talking about real-life... I don’t want this conversation tonight.

[Rrmcklin]

I thought Zimmer's point was pretty obvious, if he thinks the Giant holds it's easier to be Good while harder to be Evil than their person standard, than it follows there's a lot more leeway as to how horrible someone can be without actually crossing the threshold from Neutral to Evil.

[Kish]

Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.
This is hard to picture because it has both the Good and Evil bars in the same direction, above the floor, with on the floor being always Neutral. If you start on the floor and go five feet up, does that make you Good or does it make you Evil?

Would it be more accurate to say:

Zimmer version: Floor to 2 feet is evil. 2 feet to six feet is neutral. Six feet on up is good.

Rich version: Floor to five feet is evil. Five feet to ten feet is neutral. Ten feet on up is good.

If not, I'm afraid I'm kind of lost.

For my part, Rich often classifies characters as north of where I would put them. No expanded Neutral, since that would include classifying characters as south of where I would put them, just characters (Enor, Gannji, maybe Girard) who he declares Neutral and I would call Evil, and characters (Shojo...and most versions of Miko) who he declares Good and I would call Neutral. And at least one character (Good Deeds Gone Unpunished) who he declares Good and I would call Evil.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

D&D treats Good and Evil as equal and opposites

It treats their relative powers over the world as equal and mostly opposite (mostly in that Law-Chaos applies too, and it gets muddled). But it does not, nor has it ever implied, to the best of my (rather limited) knowledge, that an individual will find being Good or Evil equally easy or hard. Usually, Evil is easier and therefore more numerous, but infights so much that it is matched by the lesser numbers of Good.

Grey Wolf

[King of Nowhere]

I think some people from gaming parties are used to "CN" murderhobos who are really CE but are calling themselves CN because some DM don't want them to play CE characters. Said murderhobos behave more or less like hilgya, except they are protagonist and justify all they do as "i'm chaotic, i do what i want".

So some people tend to have a different concept of what is a chaotic neutral
Their hypocrisy is not my problem.


I explained myself poorly.
I don't say that those who think hilgya is CN are the hypocrite murderhobos.
I am saying that those who say hilgya is CN have seen those murderhobos at their tables (or heard of them) and they got persuaded that's how CN is meant to be.

[The_Weirdo]

Snip

Impoverishing a sex trafficker ring is a good action. If her clan is composed solely or mainly of people like those three depicted, they are a sex trafficking ring.


I am saying that those who say hilgya is CN have seen those murderhobos at their tables (or heard of them) and they got persuaded that's how CN is meant to be.

Nope.

[zimmerwald1915]

Would it be more accurate to say:

Zimmer version: Floor to 2 feet is evil. 2 feet to six feet is neutral. Six feet on up is good.

Rich version: Floor to five feet is evil. Five feet to ten feet is neutral. Ten feet on up is good.
Rather, take the two bars as being next to each other, rather than on top of one another. The floor is dead neutral; as you move away from the floor, you gravitate toward one of the bars.

Floor to Evil bar is Neutral. Evil bar to ceiling is Evil. Floor to Good bar is Neutral. Good bar to ceiling is Good.

Or, if you will, picture a bar graph. The bars have their bases on the X axis, and extend into the positive Y coordinates. The end of each bar at its positive Y coordinate represents the threshold between Neutrality and non-Neutrality, while both bars represent the range of Neutrality.

If you really must, take the Evil bar and swap the Y coordinate to negative. The sense is the same.

[oppyu]

Something I'm always curious about is how does a high WIS score manifest in Evil priests like Hilgya. We assume that being wise makes you an enlightened person, but Hilgya's whole 'an eye for an eye means you're not doing revenge properly' doesn't exactly match up with that. Redcloak presumably also has a sky-high Wisdom and he's digging himself a deeper hole than anyone.

Meanwhile Haley and Elan with the questionable Wisdom scores are happier than anyone and fully committed to an ethos of freedom and charity. After reasonable expenses.

[Obscuraphile]

*Unrelated comment*

Sorry, totally off topic, but I have to ask: is the Old English pun in your name intentional?

[Ruck]

Good riddance to that character. Welcome back, Durkon.


Hilgya, Thor, Odin, Minrah, or Greg?

The rebel trees that have turned against their evil kin to join the side of righteousness.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Something I'm always curious about is how does a high WIS score manifest in Evil priests like Hilgya. We assume that being wise makes you an enlightened person, but Hilgya's whole 'an eye for an eye means you're not doing revenge properly' doesn't exactly match up with that. Redcloak presumably also has a sky-high Wisdom and he's digging himself a deeper hole than anyone.

Wisdom, broadly, means the ability to select the path that most successfully matches your alignment amongst all choices (Intelligence gives you the most efficient path, and Charisma the one that will look best to others). If you are Evil, that means that you are efficient at finding evil ways to solve your problems.

Interestingly, the sunk cost fallacy that afflicts RC tends to be found in otherwise intelligent people in RL - it is a consequence of the inability to accept that, intelligent and wise as you are, you can still make mistakes. So, if anything, as Dumbledore puts it (slightly paraphrased), "the more intelligent you are, the huger your mistakes"

Grey Wolf

[Demon Prince]

It's interesting how Durkon seems like he's integrated with his shadow, a bit...he's asserting himself and his needs a lot more. Maybe the vampire self is lingering some.

[faustin]

A comeuppance for a secondary character isn't necessary. Though, for example, in Miko's case it was a well constructed element of the narrative. (Likewise with Tarquin, in terms of his being so frustrated that he didn't get his way as the order sailed off into the sunset on the Mechane)

Or Tsukiko being devoured by her own beloved undead, or Kubota having a undignified execution and being mostly forgotten by everyone, or Crystal being owned twice by Harley...

The Giant has no problem delivering karmic deaths even to secundary characters.

[Fyraltari]

It's interesting how Durkon seems like he's integrated with his shadow, a bit...he's asserting himself and his needs a lot more. Maybe the vampire self is lingering some.
It’s called «*character development*».

[Grey_Wolf_c]

It's interesting how Durkon seems like he's integrated with his shadow, a bit...he's asserting himself and his needs a lot more. Maybe the vampire self is lingering some.

Or, maybe, Durkon has developed as a character and learnt that his passive outlook was not the best way forwards.

Grey Wolf

[oppyu]

Wisdom, broadly, means the ability to select the path that most successfully matches your alignment amongst all choices (Intelligence gives you the most efficient path, and Charisma the one that will look best to others). If you are Evil, that means that you are efficient at finding evil ways to solve your problems.

Interestingly, the sunk cost fallacy that afflicts RC tends to be found in otherwise intelligent people in RL - it is a consequence of the inability to accept that, intelligent and wise as you are, you can still make mistakes. So, if anything, as Dumbledore puts it (slightly paraphrased), "the more intelligent you are, the huger your mistakes"

Grey Wolf
Makes sense. We do also see that with Vaarsuvius, but I'd associated that with their high INT and low WIS. But WIS being more your capacity to live up to and be certain in your ideals explains a lot of the behaviour in OOTS. The clerics in OOTS are firmly committed to their ideals, even if they aren't always effective in achieving them.

[MReav]

Or Tsukiko being devoured by her own beloved undead, or Kubota having a undignified execution and being mostly forgotten by everyone, or Crystal being owned twice by Harley...

The Giant has no problem delivering karmic deaths even to secundary characters.

Samantha and her dad, the various Linear Guild Kobold counterparts to Belkar, Zz'dtri, arguably Thog...

[Morty]

Something I'm always curious about is how does a high WIS score manifest in Evil priests like Hilgya. We assume that being wise makes you an enlightened person, but Hilgya's whole 'an eye for an eye means you're not doing revenge properly' doesn't exactly match up with that. Redcloak presumably also has a sky-high Wisdom and he's digging himself a deeper hole than anyone.

Meanwhile Haley and Elan with the questionable Wisdom scores are happier than anyone and fully committed to an ethos of freedom and charity. After reasonable expenses.

The D&D Wisdom attribute doesn't actually mean anything, least of all anything we'd more conventionally call "wisdom". There's no real point trying to map it to being actually enlightened in any way. Inasmuch as Wisdom means anything, it means being strong-willed and perceptive at the same time, somehow. Hilgya has plenty of strong will, perception and insight not so much.

[Wowlock]

Someone take that precious baby away from Hilyga before she ruins her with Hela' teachings...

[oppyu]

Samantha and her dad, the various Linear Guild Kobold counterparts to Belkar, Zz'dtri, arguably Thog...
Even to the extent of Shojo being undone by his oh so clever manipulation and subversion of the Paladin order. It's not really a karmic comeuppance since he's Chaotic Good, but there's some irony there.

[Shoelessgdowar]

:durkon: The Exarch and a few others...

So not just the nameless one Gontor* took with him then.

Another vampire is still unaccounted for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).

So either two is enough to qualify as "a few" or there are yet more spawns. My guess of Firmament not being completely rid of vampires by the end of the Order's stay here looks less improbable than one strip ago.

The exact definition of Few is a small number, usually two or at most three.


These are not "arguably" Evil actions. They are just straight-up Evil.
Quick, somebody tell the feds to let Bernie Madoff out of jail since intentionally bankrupting people for personal gain is apparently a Good thing!*
*Sarcasm, obviously.

Bankrupting them was not for personal gang. The personal gain was a bonus, like bringing in a criminal and getting a reward for it. Bankrupting them was about destroying their evil empire, which makes it a good action, then exploiting it reduces its goodness and makes it closer to Neutral (like capturing a known criminal, waiting until the warrants for their arrest add a bounty or other reward, then turning them in... Not evil, but no longer pure and good).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Bankrupting them was not for personal gang. The personal gain was a bonus, like bringing in a criminal and getting a reward for it. Bankrupting them was about destroying their evil empire, which makes it a good action, then exploiting it reduces its goodness and makes it closer to Neutral (like capturing a known criminal, waiting until the warrants for their arrest add a bounty or other reward, then turning them in... Not evil, but no longer pure and good).

Meanwhile, in the comic the rest of us are reading and discussing, she bankrupted them to pay for her divorce (and discovered that as a bonus, it made it easier to contest).


Samantha and her dad, the various Linear Guild Kobold counterparts to Belkar, arguably Thog...

He's even on record saying that it is something he pays close attention to.

Jasdoif, if you wouldn't mind, can you find me the quote about characters deaths/ends coming about due to their flaws? (as you can tell, I'm in desperate need to refresh my memory of his exact phrasing)

Thanks,

Grey Wolf

[danielxcutter]

Welp. There go two of Durkon's levels.

[Skull the Troll]

Since you ask....


OMG where was that in the last 77 pages of comments? Thats the perfect quote.


This is hard to picture because it has both the Good and Evil bars in the same direction, above the floor, with on the floor being always Neutral. If you start on the floor and go five feet up, does that make you Good or does it make you Evil?

Would it be more accurate to say:

Zimmer version: Floor to 2 feet is evil. 2 feet to six feet is neutral. Six feet on up is good.

Rich version: Floor to five feet is evil. Five feet to ten feet is neutral. Ten feet on up is good.

If not, I'm afraid I'm kind of lost.

For my part, Rich often classifies characters as north of where I would put them. No expanded Neutral, since that would include classifying characters as south of where I would put them, just characters (Enor, Gannji, maybe Girard) who he declares Neutral and I would call Evil, and characters (Shojo...and most versions of Miko) who he declares Good and I would call Neutral. And at least one character (Good Deeds Gone Unpunished) who he declares Good and I would call Evil.

Zimmer is using Absolute Value for her integers. Its only the difference from zero that matters. Why she chose to do that instead of using the agreed upon arrangement from the last 50 years however...


The opposite. I found it odd that he didn't mention it once to Durkon, not even in a "And we have no idea what this means!" way.

(EDIT
Yes that's a good possiblity. This way he can plays the exposition fairy later on when he's saner.)


Frankly if anyone still has doubts after her third and second-to-last lines here, nothing will change their mind.

Indeed. I came into the forums just to see how the Weirdo justified "poor misunderstood Hilgya."

[hamishspence]

Even to the extent of Shojo being undone by his oh so clever manipulation and subversion of the Paladin order. It's not really a karmic comeuppance since he's Chaotic Good, but there's some irony there.



Jasdoif, if you wouldn't mind, can you find me the quote about characters deaths/ends coming about due to their flaws? (as you can tell, I'm in desperate need to refresh my memory of his exact phrasing)





As The Giant put it:


I've never killed a developed character where that character's death wasn't a direct result of their own choices.

Kubota died because he made a choice to surrender based on his assumption that Hinjo was bound by morality and therefore he would be safe to continue his scheme from inside a courtroom. He made a calculated choice that involved his own safety and got the math wrong—because he didn't count on anyone going outside of Hinjo's laws. In many ways, like Nale; he thought he was untouchable, so he made a bad call.

...

If the character isn't important enough to die through their own agency, even indirectly, then they're not important enough to learn much about in the first place.

Saangwan is a good example. She totally got killed not as a result of her own choices, except maybe her choice to be there on the wall in the first place. But we also know almost nothing about her. How did she get her powers? Was she born blind? What did she think or feel about what was happening? We don't know. And that's on purpose.



Choices, not actions. Choices can include inaction, as well as a given viewpoint or a lifestyle. If you live a life of crime, and then die from disease while in jail, then your choices led to your death for our purposes. Accurate foresight into the possible consequences of one's choices is not required; indeed, most commonly, it is absent because if the character was capable of seeing and understanding the true possibilities then they probably wouldn't make that choice. It also does not absolve responsibility from the person who does the killing; that's not the point. The point is, characters don't die from someone jumping out of an alleyway and murdering them for shock value. A character's death is the culmination of their story, and should be handled as such.

Malack dies because his settled comfortable life leads him to both underestimate his enemies and ignore his own vulnerabilities. Roy dies because he is given the chance to back out of a battle that is clearly over his head and he refuses. Durkon dies because he trusted Malack to not mess with his spell research. Zz'dtri dies like he lived, as Nale's loyal follower and without much story of his own. Shojo dies because of a lifetime of lies and deceptions, the most important of which was telling a random orphan girl that she was Special and Chosen. Nale dies because he doesn't recognize the privilege he has been living under his entire life. Crystal dies the first time because she can't help but continue to threaten Haley even as they have a truce, and the second time because she can't help being a sadistic killer. Bozzok dies because he chose not to consider his follower's well-being at all. Tsukikko dies because she can't avoid gloating, and because she trusts the undead. Therkla dies because she won't pick a side.

Character deaths are a function of that character's traits, not random. Their deaths flow logically from their flaws. That's all it means.

[hroþila]

Meanwhile, in the comic the rest of us are reading and discussing, she bankrupted them to pay for her divorce (and discovered that as a bonus, it made it easier to contest).
Yeah, and I think it's very telling that Hilgya has never said anything about wanting to prevent the leading Firehelms from doing what they did to her to other kinswomen/kinsmen. She doesn't seem at all concerned with the power of this alleged Evil empire, except inasmuch as it affects her personally.

[Jasdoif]

Jasdoif, if you wouldn't mind, can you find me the quote about characters deaths/ends coming about due to their flaws? (as you can tell, I'm in desperate need to refresh my memory of his exact phrasing)Are you looking for these?



And I've never killed a developed character where that character's death wasn't a direct result of their own choices.

...Kubota died because he made a choice to surrender based on his assumption that Hinjo was bound by morality and therefore he would be safe to continue his scheme from inside a courtroom. He made a calculated choice that involved his own safety and got the math wrong—because he didn't count on anyone going outside of Hinjo's laws. In many ways, like Nale; he thought he was untouchable, so he made a bad call.
....
I think it's pretty much Storytelling 101, actually. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's how I see it. If the character isn't important enough to die through their own agency, even indirectly, then they're not important enough to learn much about in the first place.
Choices, not actions. Choices can include inaction, as well as a given viewpoint or a lifestyle. If you live a life of crime, and then die from disease while in jail, then your choices led to your death for our purposes. Accurate foresight into the possible consequences of one's choices is not required; indeed, most commonly, it is absent because if the character was capable of seeing and understanding the true possibilities then they probably wouldn't make that choice. It also does not absolve responsibility from the person who does the killing; that's not the point. The point is, characters don't die from someone jumping out of an alleyway and murdering them for shock value. A character's death is the culmination of their story, and should be handled as such.

Malack dies because his settled comfortable life leads him to both underestimate his enemies and ignore his own vulnerabilities. Roy dies because he is given the chance to back out of a battle that is clearly over his head and he refuses. Durkon dies because he trusted Malack to not mess with his spell research. Zz'dtri dies like he lived, as Nale's loyal follower and without much story of his own. Shojo dies because of a lifetime of lies and deceptions, the most important of which was telling a random orphan girl that she was Special and Chosen. Nale dies because he doesn't recognize the privilege he has been living under his entire life. Crystal dies the first time because she can't help but continue to threaten Haley even as they have a truce, and the second time because she can't help being a sadistic killer. Bozzok dies because he chose not to consider his follower's well-being at all. Tsukikko dies because she can't avoid gloating, and because she trusts the undead. Therkla dies because she won't pick a side.

Character deaths are a function of that character's traits, not random. Their deaths flow logically from their flaws. That's all it means.

To say that a character's own choices lead to her/his death is not to say that they're the only factor doing so, and Redcloak's brother chose to try to destroy Xykon, not to keep serving him like his cowardly brother did, nor to simply sneak away and trust to Xykon's apathetic inattention that Xykon would not chase him down.

This. I used the word "flaw" in my previous quote once or twice, but in some characters' cases it's only a flaw because it happened to be what got them killed. "Traits" is a better word, really.

In Right-Eye's case, he flies off to fight Xykon believing that Redcloak's loyalty to him will ultimately triumph over his loyalty to the Plan if he just forces the issue physically. As it turns out, that was not the case. Like many of the other characters in my previous post, he took a chance based on what he thought was an accurate understanding of other peoples' priorities and lost. That's still a death that leads out from his own traits—the trait that he trusted his brother implicitly. One could easily imagine a situation where he flew up to fight Xykon while invisible without even telling Redcloak first; he chose otherwise, and it's why he was killed by Redcloak the way he was. And he still would have been killed by Xykon in that scenario, but that would have made for a worse story. That's the point.
I don't know why, but I think many of you are reading way too much into this idea. It's really just about stories holding together and one thing leading to another. It is not some sort of mandate that puts moral responsibility for every character's death on their own head. In some cases, yes, if that's the point of the death in the first place. But not exclusively. Xykon killed Roy, but he killed Roy when and how he did because of who Roy was and how he acted. Roy is not responsible for his own death, but the circumstances of his death do flow from his character traits and choices. It's about plotting a compelling narrative, not victim blaming.


And Fruit Pie the Sorcerer died because he was a sorcerer who chose to fight encounters with fruit pies rather than actual spells.

[woweedd]

Wisdom, broadly, means the ability to select the path that most successfully matches your alignment amongst all choices (Intelligence gives you the most efficient path, and Charisma the one that will look best to others). If you are Evil, that means that you are efficient at finding evil ways to solve your problems.

Interestingly, the sunk cost fallacy that afflicts RC tends to be found in otherwise intelligent people in RL - it is a consequence of the inability to accept that, intelligent and wise as you are, you can still make mistakes. So, if anything, as Dumbledore puts it (slightly paraphrased), "the more intelligent you are, the huger your mistakes"

Grey Wolf
“I make mistakes like the next man. In fact, being--forgive me--rather cleverer than most men, my mistakes tend to be correspondingly huger.”

[Ironsmith]

Wow, it's surprising how much of the conversation in this comic could have been directly lifted from the previous thread. I mean, dang, Hylgia might as well change her name to Weirdo, among other things.

[The_Weirdo]

Meanwhile, in the comic the rest of us are reading and discussing, she bankrupted them to pay for her divorce (and discovered that as a bonus, it made it easier to contest).

A divorce of a marriage she entered into willingly, yes?

No?

Well, then, a forced marriage for which her clan is not responsible, yes?

No???

Huh. I wonder what the accoustics in dwarven tunnels are like for the world's saddest song played in the world's smallest violin.

Also, Happy New Year, everybody! :smallbiggrin:

[The Pilgrim]

Meanwhile, in the comic the rest of us are reading and discussing, she bankrupted them to pay for her divorce (and discovered that as a bonus, it made it easier to contest).

After the last strip, it strikes to me that she bankrupted them to make them suffer more than she perceived them made her suffer and, thus, "win".

[King of Nowhere]

Sorry, totally off topic, but I have to ask: is the Old English pun in your name intentional?

you mean the missing 'h'? no, that was a typo when i joined the forum, and i could never fix it later

[Obscuraphile]

you mean the missing 'h'? no, that was a typo when i joined the forum, and i could never fix it later

Oh, well it's just that were is an Old English word for man, or human, but it still sounds the same. So, your name can still sound like King of Nowhere but could also mean King of No-men (Or King without a people). Just the way my brain works.

[King of Nowhere]

Oh, well it's just that were is an Old English word for man, or human, but it still sounds the same. So, your name can still sound like King of Nowhere but could also mean King of No-men (Or King without a people). Just the way my brain works.

I picked it up because it was a silly oots-related joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html).
However, I later realized that it was a fitting name for a gamer: I move armies and shape worlds, so i am a king, but they are all digital and imaginary, so I'm not really king of anywhere, so I'm the king of nowhere.
Now I use the name for everything on the internet.

[Obscuraphile]

I picked it up because it was a silly oots-related joke (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html).
However, I later realized that it was a fitting name for a gamer: I move armies and shape worlds, so i am a king, but they are all digital and imaginary, so I'm not really king of anywhere, so I'm the king of nowhere.
Now I use the name for everything on the internet.

The giant did seemed awfully fond of "Who's on first" in the early days.

[MReav]

The giant did seemed awfully fond of "Who's on first" in the early days.

Emphasis on the word awful for those of us who hate those jokes on general principle.

[Obscuraphile]

Emphasis on the word awful for those of us who hate those jokes on general principle.

I chose my words deliberately.

[drazen]

Welp. There go two of Durkon's levels.

Unless OOTSverse "personal rival" rules apply (like with Haley and Crystal) and he gets them back automatically :)

[Jasdoif]

Unless OOTSverse "personal rival" rules apply (like with Haley and Crystal) and he gets them back automatically :)I don't think HPoH is extant enough to have levels at this point.

[Bob_McSurly]

Welp, the two Neutrals, Gannji and Enor, hunt people because they want money...
I feel like people often forget that they were hunting people that they thought were a Succubus and a mass murderer.

While I agree that she's CN, CNs aren't "do what you want to just because". Or, rather, at least effective CNs aren't that. That would be Chaotic Stupid...
Which is not an alignment on the chart.

Impoverishing a sex trafficker ring is a good action. If her clan is composed solely or mainly of people like those three depicted, they are a sex trafficking ring.

I am a native English speaker, and I think that you have consistently misrepresented what can reasonably be included in the English word "clan" in this context. It implies a large extended family or group of families, and generally implies some form of political structure. So yes, you're right, she did "impoverish the sex trafficking ring" (a.k.a, the Clan leaders), BUT she also drove numerous innocent children into poverty. And yes, I know we haven't seen them, but the meaning of the word clan almost certainly implies that they exist.

Or Tsukiko being devoured by her own beloved undead
Sure, that was karmic, but it was also really sad....

A divorce of a marriage she entered into willingly, yes?

No?

Well, then, a forced marriage for which her clan is not responsible, yes?


So we can recognize the difference now, but not when discussing whether it was okay for Durkon to propose?

It doesn't matter. Really. She's not a main character.

Aside from the fact that some of us find it interesting in and of itself, I would say it has to matter, in as much as Durkon is one of the protagonists, and what happens to Hilgya and Kudzu is probably important to him and his arc.


If you are going to try that hard to find outrage, I'd recommend putting that energy into something more positive.
I honestly was not trying to sound outraged. I just noticed a turn of phrase that sounded a little weird to me, and was surprised nobody else had commented on it. I was kind of thinking of how dogs in Narnia use girl as an insult. Either way, I'm not outraged, so sorry if I sounded like I was. If Durkon doesn't mind, I don't see why I should.

And it didn't take much energy, either, for what it's worth

[gatemansgc]

:durkon: The Exarch and a few others...

So not just the nameless one Gontor* took with him then.

Another vampire is still unaccounted for (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1130.html).

So either two is enough to qualify as "a few" or there are yet more spawns. My guess of Firmament not being completely rid of vampires by the end of the Order's stay here looks less improbable than one strip ago.

need all those vampires to get durkon's TWO lost levels back.

[Obscuraphile]

Unless OOTSverse "personal rival" rules apply (like with Haley and Crystal) and he gets them back automatically :)

I don't think it works like that...


I don't think HPoH is extant enough to have levels at this point.

Aren't undead immune to level loss? Of course they can't be raised either (I think? Maybe the Giant's versions can) so probably moot point.

[dtilque]

Welp. There go two of Durkon's levels.

He lost one already and that was unavoidable. It's only the second one that need not have been lost.

[woweedd]

I feel like people often forget that they were hunting people that they thought were a Succubus and a mass murderer.

Which is not an alignment on the chart.

I am a native English speaker, and I think that you have consistently misrepresented what can reasonably be included in the English word "clan" in this context. It implies a large extended family or group of families, and generally implies some form of political structure. So yes, you're right, she did "impoverish the sex trafficking ring" (a.k.a, the Clan leaders), BUT she also drove numerous innocent children into poverty. And yes, I know we haven't seen them, but the meaning of the word clan almost certainly implies that they exist.

Sure, that was karmic, but it was also really sad....

So we can recognize the difference now, but not when discussing whether it was okay for Durkon to propose?

Aside from the fact that some of us find it interesting in and of itself, I would say it has to matter, in as much as Durkon is one of the protagonists, and what happens to Hilgya and Kudzu is probably important to him and his arc.

I honestly was not trying to sound outraged. I just noticed a turn of phrase that sounded a little weird to me, and was surprised nobody else had commented on it. I was kind of thinking of how dogs in Narnia use girl as an insult. Either way, I'm not outraged, so sorry if I sounded like I was. If Durkon doesn't mind, I don't see why I should.

And it didn't take much energy, either, for what it's worth
In less fairness to Ganji and Enor, they hunted people on THE WORD OF THE EMPIRE OF BLOOD, who, as Haley's father could tell you, can't really be trusted.

[Jay R]

It's good to have Durkon back again. Again.


And there they all are, squabbling and ducking blame. The Order of the Stick is back!

[Kish]

Rather, take the two bars as being next to each other, rather than on top of one another. The floor is dead neutral; as you move away from the floor, you gravitate toward one of the bars.

Floor to Evil bar is Neutral. Evil bar to ceiling is Evil. Floor to Good bar is Neutral. Good bar to ceiling is Good.

Or, if you will, picture a bar graph. The bars have their bases on the X axis, and extend into the positive Y coordinates. The end of each bar at its positive Y coordinate represents the threshold between Neutrality and non-Neutrality, while both bars represent the range of Neutrality.

If you really must, take the Evil bar and swap the Y coordinate to negative. The sense is the same.
Do I have the measurements right, is the important question.

I feel like people often forget that they were hunting people that they thought were a Succubus and a mass murderer.
Really? Forget? I see "But they thought they were going after Nale!" all the time--as if what the cartoonishly evil Empire of Blood said about those it wants captured actually indicates anything about the morality of those people.

(I'm sure most of Enor and Gannji's defenders would likewise defend bounty hunters who went after the brutal assassin Ian Starshine, but I wonder how they'd react if Supreme Leader Jirix of Gobbotopia put out a bounty on known cow-tipper and barratrer Roy Greenhilt.)

[Dausuul]

Also, I can't help but wonder whether robed Durkon is going to be a thing now, much the same way V's been rocking that ponytail since their own arc.

If it is, I hope he gets Elan to cast mending on the rip*. There may be a dwarf out there who can pull off the John Travolta look, but Durkon is not that dwarf.

*Or just, you know, sews it up. But why perform a simple domestic task when you could accomplish the same thing by tampering with the fundamental essence of the universe?

[Algeh]

Well, the metaphor obviously fell flat, so what the heck, I'll spell it out.

Taking the floor as the midpoint of Neutral, I'd place the bar for Good about six feet off the ground, and the bar for Evil about two. Mr. Burlew, in my view, places both bars at about five feet, making the Good bar one foot lower than I would place it, and the Evil bar about three feet higher. Thus "lowering" the bar to be considered Good, and "raising" the bar to be considered Evil.

Additionally, the aggregate ten feet between both bars and the ground in my interpretation of Mr. Burlew's scheme is less than the aggregate eight feet in mine. Thus "Neutral" is broader.


So, what I'm hearing is that you consider the minimum heights for Good and Evil to be arranged something like the the Uneven Bars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uneven_bars) in gymnastics, and you're suggesting that The Giant sees them as more like the Parallel Bars (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_bars)?

Or am I visualizing this badly?

My understanding of your proposed arrangement also creates the question of whether you'd see is as possible for a character to to, in essence, fling themselves directly from above the Good bar to above the Evil bar (or the other way 'round) without first falling to the floor and traveling through neutral. I could see an argument for a system that saw good/neutral/evil as a triangle diagram like that rather than a linear one, but I don't think D&D encourages that visualization by default (partly because it would get complicated to visualize it overlaid with another triangle diagram for lawful/neutral/chaotic - I can see how I'd whomp together one for any given character using some computer graphics, but it'd be something that I can't see an easy way to pre-print a generic 2d set of axes for or anything if you wanted an overlay rather than two side by side displays).

[woweedd]

Do I have the measurements right, is the important question.

Really? Forget? I see "But they thought they were going after Nale!" all the time--as if what the cartoonishly evil Empire of Blood said about those it wants captured actually indicates anything about the morality of those people.

(I'm sure most of Enor and Gannji's defenders would likewise defend bounty hunters who went after the brutal assassin Ian Starshine, but I wonder how they'd react if Supreme Leader Jirix of Gobbotopia put out a bounty on known cow-tipper and barratrer Roy Greenhilt.)
In fairness, doing something that you thought was Good on the basis of incomplete information isn't necessarily Evil. Morals don't judge on effectiveness. On the other hand, continuing to take orders from known-to-be-Evil source is very different. Also, what is a barratrer?

[diplomancer]

Or Tsukiko being devoured by her own beloved undead, or Kubota having a undignified execution and being mostly forgotten by everyone, or Crystal being owned twice by Harley...

The Giant has no problem delivering karmic deaths even to secundary characters.

Yes, Tarquin's case is somewhat unusual, in that hid karmic defeat almost requires him to die off-panel to a bunch of second-listers.

This simply cannot be Hilgya's fate; she is with Durkon's kid, and has given no indication of being willing to share custody or anything. As being a father is now integral to Durkon's personality, I imagine that this conflict will be solved before current book ends (since Durkon is the main character of this book).

I don't expect, given Hilgya's stated views and observed actions, that it will be solved peacefully.

[Kish]

In fairness, doing something that you thought was Good on the basis of incomplete information isn't necessarily Evil. Morals don't judge on effectiveness. On the other hand, continuing to take orders from known-to-be-Evil source is very different. Also, what is a barratrer?
Someone who commits a kind of medieval insurance fraud involving deliberately sinking their own ship.

Enor and Gannji looked at all the so-blatant-Elan-could-see-it markers of evil all over the Empire of Blood, and they said, "Man, that is so unfair (that the slave drivers aren't getting as much money as they want for the slaves' labor). I hope it all works out."

[zimmerwald1915]

Someone who commits a kind of medieval insurance fraud involving deliberately sinking their own ship.

Enor and Gannji looked at all the so-blatant-Elan-could-see-it markers of evil all over the Empire of Blood, and they said, "Man, that is so unfair (that the slave drivers aren't getting as much money as they want for the slaves' labor). I hope it all works out."
Yeah, they really should have stuck it to the labor aristocracy, for example, by crossing their picket line in exactly the way they did.

[The_Weirdo]

Yeah, they really should have stuck it to the labor aristocracy, for example, by crossing their picket line in exactly the way they did.

I'm sorry, are you defending the labor rights of slave drivers now? I'm not judging, just curious as to where you stand here. :smallbiggrin:


This simply cannot be Hilgya's fate; she is with Durkon's kid, and has given no indication of being willing to share custody or anything. As being a father is now integral to Durkon's personality, I imagine that this conflict will be solved before current book ends (since Durkon is the main character of this book).

I don't expect, given Hilgya's stated views and observed actions, that it will be solved peacefully.

You're right. Durkon will absolutely kill the mother of his child and kidnap the child for himself to raise with his elderly mother. It makes perfect sense and is exactly what Durkon, as a Lawful Good character that is a traditionalist by the standards of a society that is pretty much scared into horrible tradition, would do.

Of note: neither Durkon nor Hilgya touched upon any arrangements of shared custody. He asked to marry her. She offered him a well-done refusal. That was it.

[Potatopeelerkin]

I guess that seals the "Hilgya Alignment" debate as Chaotic Evil. Hopefully now we can move on from it.

It's funny how one page addressed pretty much all the major talking points from the last few months of discussion. You think the Giant decided to address them after reading these, or is it just coincidental?

[anonynos]

I guess that seals the "Hilgya Alignment" debate as Chaotic Evil. Hopefully now we can move on from it.


Given all previous evidence I'd say its unlikely that anything short of the Giant literally stating her alignment will really "settle" the issue. And even that I wouldn't give better than even odds.

[Luccan]

Given all previous evidence I'd say its unlikely that anything short of the Giant literally stating her alignment will really "settle" the issue. And even that I wouldn't give better than even odds.

Oh, I'm quiet certain that would only make it worse. An alignment argument is never solved: it is at best tabled for later and most often goes on until someone quits* or the thread is locked.

*Not concedes. They shall declare their inability to get through to their opponent and leave with a dramatic flip of their cape.

[rbetieh]

Well, now we know that not all the gods are aware of a world inside the rifts... so now the most informed parties are the heroes and the IFCC...

[Bob_McSurly]

In less fairness to Ganji and Enor, they hunted people on THE WORD OF THE EMPIRE OF BLOOD, who, as Haley's father could tell you, can't really be trusted.

Yeah, I guess you're right.

[diplomancer]

In less fairness to Ganji and Enor, they hunted people on THE WORD OF THE EMPIRE OF BLOOD, who, as Haley's father could tell you, can't really be trusted.

In more fairness to THE EMPIRE OF BLOOD, Ian is the most paranoid character in the story and doesn't trust anyone :p

[Grey_Wolf_c]

you mean the missing 'h'? no, that was a typo when i joined the forum, and i could never fix it later

If you are not aware, you can ask for it to be fixed in this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?108349-Name-Change-Request-Thread-II-(Please-Read-Directions-Before-Posting)). It won't happen overnight, but they'll get to it eventually.

Grey Wolf

[AstralFire]

I don't really understand why there's such interest in declaring that a character must be neutral instead of good/evil or vice-versa. The alignment system is well known for its fuzziness, and oftentimes characters ride the line between two adjacent points. As long as no one's definition of Lawful Good can be confused for Chaotic Neutral, I feel like it's doing its job about as well as can be reasonably expected.

[Cirin]

--at least Thor and Odin have no clue about the world inside the world, which says some interesting things about divine ability to see things that are clearly visible to view (and hearing--Roy and the others were openly discussing the nature of the rift in the desert and what was inside);

The gods aren't omniscient, they seem to need scrying windows from the planes too. They may not have been directly watching the OotS at the right moment, or looking straight into the rift. . .since you seem to need to be right up on it to see the world in there. It wasn't until Blackwing was right in front of it that he could see it, Xykon and Redcloak were close (but not that close) to it and saw nothing. Same with the rift in the Desert, Laurin didn't see it until she was very close to it.

The Gods probably don't look right at it, they don't even want to get close to it with a scrying window, they are impossibly ancient and that's the one thing in all creation that can plausibly kill them. They seem to intentionally keep their distance, and from the sound of it their usual protocol when things get this bad is to just blow up the world and start over, and the main reason they haven't done that this time is Thor's plan with the Purple Quiddity to break the cycle.

Redcloak even mentioned once that The Dark One can't see a LOT of what's going on because other deities are actively blocking him being able to sense things.

Also, I think Odin may know the bigger picture what's going on, at least subconsciously, given his speech at the Godsmoot. . .but his senility due to mortal misperceptions of him means he cannot consciously comprehend many of the deeper or more large scale elements of his plans. . .like Durkon's exile.

[Mightymosy]

As much as I dislike Hilgya for being such an evil idiot, I really love her line:

I reserve my right to respond to idiocy with cleansing divine fire.

If there ever comes a T-Shirt with that, I may want to buy that :smallbiggrin:

Man, I miss the times when the good guys got corny lines like that.

"I can multitask" just doesn't compare :smallwink:

[Nomen]

Really? And was Durkon coming up with reasons why being forced into marriage isn't that bad and why it's oh-so-mean of Hilgya to bankrupt that sex trafficking ring that calls itself her family?

No.:smallconfused: Just that a bad conversation does not justify killing someone.