Some quick questions

[cleanrunner]

Just wanted to get these few out of my system before the new year, and also since the book is probably close to ending.

1) How have none of the gods know about the planet inside the Snarl? (have none of them peeped in or something)

2) Even if they did know, what could they (Thor & Odin) do about it? What kind of change of plans would they tell Durkon?

3) If Redcloak reaches epic-level (given Kraagor's difficulty, it might be a possibility) what additional stuff could he do?

4) 1v1 style, how would each member of the Order fare against Hilgya? (assuming full power on both sides)

5) Also just out of curiosity what level was Right-eye around?

Also, happy new year in a few hours...

[Peelee]

1.) Unknown. Maybe we'll find out.

2.) Unknown. Maybe we'll find out.

3.) Anything in the Epic Level Handbook for epic clerics that he chooses. I doubt we'll find out.

4.) Unknown. I doubt we'll find out.

5.) I'd say tennish, why not.

[Rrmcklin]

I never get the point of threads like this, we know just as much as you do.

[Fyraltari]

Just wanted to get these few out of my system before the new year, and also since the book is probably close to ending.

1) How have none of the gods know about the planet inside the Snarl? (have none of them peeped in or something)
Would you peep into the lair of a ravenous man-eating bulletproof tiger?

2) Even if they did know, what could they (Thor & Odin) do about it? What kind of change of plans would they tell Durkon?
To gather more info before doing anything irreversible. If the Snarl tolerates this world then it means that there is more to it than mindless destruction. Maybe it could be reasonned with. If there are people on this world then messing with the Rifts might endanger them. If the Eastern Gods are there and alive they could be rescued. Basically what it says is that the gods don’t know nearly as much as they thought. Therefore caution is advised.

[MartianInvader]

My thoughts on the 1v1s:

She stomps Belkar and Elan.

Haley can probably beat her (evasion works on flame strike, right?), especially if she has cover and can snipe like she did against Tsukiko.

Durkon is her opposite, so it would be an even match-up, but since he just lost two levels I think she wins.

V could go either way - it might come down to who rolls higher initiative.

Roy, as a fighter, would typically lose to a similar-level cleric, but his sword is a serious power-up now - enough to even the odds, I think.

[dtilque]

1) How have none of the gods know about the planet inside the Snarl? (have none of them peeped in or something)


The planet is inside the rifts. It may or may not be inside the Snarl too. My guess is it isn't.

The Snarl is known to occasionally lash out through the rifts. For example, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0945.html). That wasn't the first time it's done that. Gods are especially vulnerable to the Snarl, so they stay as far away from the rifts as they can.

[Caerulea]

Would you peep into the lair of a ravenous man-eating bulletproof tiger?
I think it would better be compared to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgj3nZWtOfA)bunny. Lethal, but could be defeated with a sufficiently powerful Holy Hand Grenade.

[factotum]

Durkon is her opposite, so it would be an even match-up, but since he just lost two levels I think she wins.


That's assuming she was as high level as him to start with, and I don't think we can assume that--while he's been adventuring for the last year or so, she's been pregnant and giving birth, so she might well have lost some ground on him.

[RatElemental]

1v1 Between V and Hilgya, I put better odds on Hilgya. Clerics get better saves, better BAB, better hit dice, the ability to heal and the ability to cast in armor. V's best shot would be a save or lose that targets reflex saves because they can't summon anything, but Hilgya has greater dispell magic to dispell and counterspell with.

[Fyraltari]

I think it would better be compared to this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgj3nZWtOfA)bunny. Lethal, but could be defeated with a sufficiently powerful Holy Hand Grenade.

Except the grenade doesn’t exist yet and the Snarl doesn’t look cute and harmless. I don’t see the resemblance.

[MartianInvader]

That's assuming she was as high level as him to start with, and I don't think we can assume that--while he's been adventuring for the last year or so, she's been pregnant and giving birth, so she might well have lost some ground on him.
I think you've forgotten how this stuff works (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) (see panels 3 and 4)

[Peelee]

I think you've forgotten how this stuff works (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0581.html) (see panels 3 and 4)

Yeah, I don't think "met once and had a one night stand" quite meets the requirements for personal rival, whatever they are.

[factotum]

Agreed--I don't think Hilgya is Durkon's personal rival in anything like the way Crystal was for Haley. Or, to put it another way: I didn't forget anything, I just didn't think that applied here.

[Morquard]

4) 1v1 style, how would each member of the Order fare against Hilgya? (assuming full power on both sides)

Hilgya would likely win, since almost everyone in the Order would be too worried to hit the baby and hold back. While she doesn't.

[Kish]

Hilgya would likely win, since almost everyone in the Order would be too worried to hit the baby and hold back. While she doesn't.
That's what Precise Shot is for.

Says so right in the Player's Handbook: "When fighting an evil cleric who doesn't mind using her own toddler as a shield, this feat will ensure you hit her, not him."

If you actually look it up, I'll laugh at you.

[Son of A Lich!]

Would you peep into the lair of a ravenous man-eating bulletproof tiger?

You thought you could stop me Snarl!? HaHA! It is I, Herakles! Defeating a Ravenous Man-Eating Bulletproof Lion was my First Labor!

-Rest in Peace, Eastern Pantheon.

[Peelee]

That's what Precise Shot is for.

That's terrible. I can't believe you said that. I thought I knew you better.

You need Accurate Shot. Precise Shot just means they'll be grouped closer together. Could have a bunch hitting dwarf baby in great concentration.

Its totally not a made up feat and if you can't find it you obviously did something wrong.

[Riftwolf]

Hilgya would likely win, since almost everyone in the Order would be too worried to hit the baby and hold back. While she doesn't.

By RAW, could V create a forcecage/resilient sphere between Hilgya and Kudzu?

[RatElemental]

By RAW, could V create a forcecage/resilient sphere between Hilgya and Kudzu?

If they somehow ended up in different squares, I suppose.

[MartianInvader]

Hilgya apparently (if somewhat bizarrely) doesn't have a great will save. V could safely hit her with Dominate Person even if she had Kudzu. Similarly Durkon could try a Hold Person or other single-target spell.

But yeah, against the rest of the order I guess she wins if she's carrying Kudzu (though Roy and Haley could probably escape before she kills them).

Edit: WAIT A MINUTE the question specified 1v1, no fair giving Hilgya a teammate!

[rbetieh]

my best guess right now is that maybe single-quiddity beings can't see past their creations (the prison and technically the snarl) so whatever the snarl itself made in there is invisible to them....

[martianmister]

1) How have none of the gods know about the planet inside the Snarl? (have none of them peeped in or something)

The Dark One did, according to SoD. Others were too scared to do it.

2) Even if they did know, what could they (Thor & Odin) do about it? What kind of change of plans would they tell Durkon?

That depends on what's happened to the Snarl.

3) If Redcloak reaches epic-level (given Kraagor's difficulty, it might be a possibility) what additional stuff could he do?

He can made miracles happen.

4) 1v1 style, how would each member of the Order fare against Hilgya? (assuming full power on both sides)

Belkar would die
Elan would die
Haley would die
Vaarsuvius would kill her
Roy would die
Durkon would die (obv.)

5) Also just out of curiosity what level was Right-eye around?

We have nothing official.

[RatElemental]

Hilgya apparently (if somewhat bizarrely) doesn't have a great will save. V could safely hit her with Dominate Person even if she had Kudzu. Similarly Durkon could try a Hold Person or other single-target spell.

It is legit impossible for Hilgya, barring homebrew or multiple persistent debuffs, to have a bad will save given the fact that she's throwing around multiple empowered flame strikes and a resurrection in one day. She has to have at least a +15 just from levels and ability mod alone.

It is not impossible for her to roll multiple 1s in a row, however unlikely. In a non-canon hypothetical fight it is probably best to formulate possible strategies based on the minimum abilities we know the characters possess.

[Kish]

I think more likely, Rich decided that failing Will saves would go with "this character is weak-willed" more than with "Imma look at class and mechanically required Wisdom bonus." Thus, Roy has a good Will save*, Elan has a bad one.

*I'm aware he was under Mind Blank, at least before the dispel flurry and maybe after; Durkon still thought back in the pyramid "just Roy," not "Elan and Vaarsuvius."

[Fyraltari]

*I'm aware he was under Mind Blank, at least before the dispel flurry and maybe after; Durkon still thought back in the pyramid "just Roy," not "Elan and Vaarsuvius."

And he was validated by Roy shaking the Domination off twice at (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html) the Moot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1009.html).

[Peelee]

He can made miracles happen.

He can do that at 17th level.

[D.One]

Roy, as a fighter, would typically lose to a similar-level cleric, but his sword is a serious power-up now - enough to even the odds, I think.



Roy would die


Roy's fight with Greg (which was, at that time, a 15th level vampire version of DUrkon) seems to indicate he would fare reasonably well against a high level cleric in a fight.

[MartianInvader]

It is legit impossible for Hilgya, barring homebrew or multiple persistent debuffs, to have a bad will save given the fact that she's throwing around multiple empowered flame strikes and a resurrection in one day. She has to have at least a +15 just from levels and ability mod alone.
Worth noting that Hilgya already must have some kind of Homebrew in order to turn undead, unless you believe that both she and Loki are chaotic neutral. It's been suggested in the forum that maybe there's a Homebrew rule that lets her use charisma instead of wisdom.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Worth noting that Hilgya already must have some kind of Homebrew in order to turn undead, unless you believe that both she and Loki are chaotic neutral.

No, it would not be a homebrew, since examples of this exist within the rules as written (such as Kelemvor, a Neutral deity who can have Evil priests and that nevertheless only grants turn undead).

Grey Wolf

[factotum]

Yeah, it really wouldn't make sense for Loki to be granting Command or Rebuke Undead to his priests when (according to Hilgya) he hates undead--it makes a lot more sense for him to be granting Turn Undead, despite being Evil.

[MartianInvader]

No, it would not be a homebrew, since examples of this exist within the rules as written (such as Kelemvor, a Neutral deity who can have Evil priests and that nevertheless only grants turn undead).

Grey Wolf
Kelemvor isn't Loki, though - if I copied some properties of a RAW magic item to make a different magic item, it would still be homebrew in my book, and copying properties of RAW deities to make a new deity seems like the same sort of thing. But the definition of "homebrew" is getting so tangential I guess it doesn't really matter, unless somone cares deeply over how likely it is that Hilgya has homebrew effects on a hypothetical save against V's hypothetical Dominate Person in a hypothetical 1v1 where she's hypothetically wearing Kudzu.

Here's a rules question I'm curious about: Could V safely use Chain Lightning on Hilgya without endagering Kudzu? It seems to function as a single-target-at-a-time spell and doesn't need an attack roll - does that mean it hits automatically and V can opt to have no secondary targets?

[factotum]

Here's a rules question I'm curious about: Could V safely use Chain Lightning on Hilgya without endagering Kudzu? It seems to function as a single-target-at-a-time spell and doesn't need an attack roll - does that mean it hits automatically and V can opt to have no secondary targets?

According to the SRD description of the spell:

"You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum."

So, yes, he could use Chain Lightning and not hit Kudzu with it--there might even be a legitimate reason for doing so, since Chain Lightning deals twice as much damage as Lightning Bolt to its primary target. However, it's a 6th level spell as opposed to a 3rd level one, so comes with a greater opportunity cost.

[MartianInvader]

According to the SRD description of the spell:

"You choose secondary targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be struck more than once. You can choose to affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum."

So, yes, he could use Chain Lightning and not hit Kudzu with it--there might even be a legitimate reason for doing so, since Chain Lightning deals twice as much damage as Lightning Bolt to its primary target. However, it's a 6th level spell as opposed to a 3rd level one, so comes with a greater opportunity cost.
But Lightning Bolt would hit Kudzu, right? It's an AOE line spell.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Kelemvor isn't Loki, though

This is a ridiculous argument. None of the OotS gods are identical the gods in any manual - for example the standard dwarven deity is Moradin, not Thor. So if Loki granting turn undead is "homebrew", then so is every other piece of worldbuilding in OotS. Which renders the word meaningless.

Grey Wolf

[MartianInvader]

This is a ridiculous argument. None of the OotS gods are identical the gods in any manual - for example the standard dwarven deity is Moradin, not Thor. So if Loki granting turn undead is "homebrew", then so is every other piece of worldbuilding in OotS. Which renders the word meaningless.
Sure, whatever makes you happy. Like I said, I don't find this worth arguing about.

[KillianHawkeye]

Remember that we're talking about Loki, here. He's kind of the poster god for "not following the rules." If ANY Evil god in OOTS were to go around granting turn undead to their Clerics, it'd be Loki. He'll be damned to Hel before he lets some book tell him what to do!