Scatter into a Forcecage?

[Crgaston]

Forcecage requires a Cha save to teleport out of it. Scatter can teleport unwilling creatures into a space you can see if they fail a Wis save.

How do these spells interact per RAW, RAI, RAF and/or your personal opinions?

[Eragon123]

You can teleport them inside no problem.

[qube]

Forcecage requires a Cha save to teleport out of it. Scatter can teleport unwilling creatures into a space you can see if they fail a Wis save.

How do these spells interact per RAW, RAI, RAF and/or your personal opinions?in RAW, You can't chose to fail saves.

Force Cage

If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to leave the cage, it must first make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the creature can use that magic to exit the cage. On a failure, the creature can't exit the cage and wastes the use of the spell or effect.
Scatter

You teleport a creature to an empty space on the ground within 120 feet of you. ... A creature unwilling to teleport must pass a Wisdom save to be unaffected.

So, an unwilling creature most both fail it's wisdom saving throw & succeed it's charisma saving throw.

I wouldn't rule it differently, because then you'd get "oh, I'm a low charisma wisdom character. I don't want to get out of prison. Oh, look, now I can escape easier, poor me."

[Darkstar952]

in RAW, You can't chose to fail saves.

Force Cage

If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to leave the cage, it must first make a Charisma saving throw. On a success, the creature can use that magic to exit the cage. On a failure, the creature can't exit the cage and wastes the use of the spell or effect.
Scatter

You teleport a creature to an empty space on the ground within 120 feet of you. ... A creature unwilling to teleport must pass a Wisdom save to be unaffected.

So, an unwilling creature most both fail it's wisdom saving throw & succeed it's charisma saving throw.

I wouldn't rule it differently, because then you'd get "oh, I'm a low charisma wisdom character. I don't want to get out of prison. Oh, look, now I can escape easier, poor me."

Maybe I'm reading the question differently but it seemed he was asking about teleporting creatures into the forecage after it was already in place.

Yes by RAW the limitation on Forecage is only for teleportation out of the cage, so you could teleport a creature into the forecage. Personally I would probably change this so a CHA save has to be made to teleport in or out, as Forcecage is already stupidly strong and doesn't need anything making it more powerful.

Your example is also a little off, if the creature wants out of the cage then it can simply be a willing target of scatter, therefore no WIS save is required.

[MrStabby]

Is teleporting in without a save actually an improvement? I would have thought that being able to teleport whoever cast the spell into the cage with you would make it worse.

[qube]

Maybe I'm reading the question differently but it seemed he was asking about teleporting creatures into the forecage after it was already in place."How do these spells interact" does leave a lot of room for interpretation.


Is teleporting in without a save actually an improvement? I would have thought that being able to teleport whoever cast the spell into the cage with you would make it worse. in RAW it IS without save, Darkstar952 suggest making it with save both ways.

As is/
Teleporting a willing creature into a cage; no prob.
Teleporting a unwilling creature into a cage - fail wis save
Teleporting a willing creature out of the cage - succeed cha save
Teleporting a unwilling creature out of the cage: fail wis save, succeed cha save

[Malifice]

If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to leave the cage, it must first make a Charisma saving throw...

Leave the cage. You can teleport into it just fine.

Wisdom save to Scatter someone in there. If they get zapped in there, they're trapped like anyone else.

[Derpy]

Well, if forcecage is in it's cage form I don't see an issue with teleporting someone inside of it, provided they fail their wis save, if forcecage is in box form it wont work, as per they spell it's "a solid barrier that... blocking any spells cast into or out of the area."

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm not convinced that teleporting into the cage would be any easier than teleporting out of it.

1) Either it never occurred to the PHB authors that someone would ever try teleporting into a force cage, and they didn't bother clarifying that situation. OR...

2) They simply failed to mention that force cage is only a one way barrier.

I'm seeing exactly zero language in the spell description indicating the cage is a one-way barrier, but a number of posts on this thread reading such intent into it, for some reason.

I'm just gonna go with number 1, above, and assume the authors just didn't imagine anyone would be daft enough to teleport into a force cage, and didn't think to mention whether the force cage is a two way barrier. Until I hear otherwise from them, there's no reason to assume it isn't.

[Crgaston]

You can teleport them inside no problem.

That's what I thought I was reading.


"How do these spells interact" does leave a lot of room for interpretation.

in RAW it IS without save, Darkstar952 suggest making it with save both ways.

As is/
Teleporting a willing creature into a cage; no prob.
Teleporting a unwilling creature into a cage - fail wis save
Teleporting a willing creature out of the cage - succeed cha save
Teleporting a unwilling creature out of the cage: fail wis save, succeed cha save

Yes, it does leave lots of room for interpretation.

Darkstar952 correctly deduced the idea that prompted the question, but I chose to ask more broadly to see what HADN'T thought of, so thanks very much for your contributions and insight!


If the creature tries to use teleportation or interplanar travel to leave the cage, it must first make a Charisma saving throw...

Leave the cage. You can teleport into it just fine.

Wisdom save to Scatter someone in there. If they get zapped in there, they're trapped like anyone else.

This is how I read it, too.


Well, if forcecage is in it's cage form I don't see an issue with teleporting someone inside of it, provided they fail their wis save, if forcecage is in box form it wont work, as per they spell it's "a solid barrier that... blocking any spells cast into or out of the area."

Key point. Scatter doesn't work for this at all unless it's the Forcecage form with bars.


I'm not convinced that teleporting into the cage would be any easier than teleporting out of it.

1) Either it never occurred to the PHB authors that someone would ever try teleporting into a force cage, and they didn't bother clarifying that situation. OR...

2) They simply failed to mention that force cage is only a one way barrier.

I'm seeing exactly zero language in the spell description indicating the cage is a one-way barrier, but a number of posts on this thread reading such intent into it, for some reason.

I'm just gonna go with number 1, above, and assume the authors just didn't imagine anyone would be daft enough to teleport into a force cage, and didn't think to mention whether the force cage is a two way barrier. Until I hear otherwise from them, there's no reason to assume it isn't.

As Malifice points out above, the spell repeatedly uses the words "exit" and "leave" when referring to teleporting out of either the box or cage forms of the spell.

Likewise, when the text refers to the characteristics of the box form, it does state that it "prevents any matter from passing through it and blocking any spells cast into or out from the area." It doesn't use the same language when talking about the cage form, so presumably spells can be cast through the cage form. Then it goes on to a separate point with regard to teleportation specifically, and it doesn't say "into or out of," it just uses the words "exit' and "leave." That's where the reading of it being a one-way teleportation block comes from.

Your point about intent/oversight is entirely plausible, though, as Scatter came out in XGtE, long after the Forcecage spell was written.

I'm trying to recall if there were any way to teleport an unwilling creature before Scatter? Of the top of my head I've got nothing.

[Malifice]

I'm not convinced that teleporting into the cage would be any easier than teleporting out of it.

1) Either it never occurred to the PHB authors that someone would ever try teleporting into a force cage, and they didn't bother clarifying that situation. OR...

2) They simply failed to mention that force cage is only a one way barrier.

I'm seeing exactly zero language in the spell description indicating the cage is a one-way barrier, but a number of posts on this thread reading such intent into it, for some reason.

I'm just gonna go with number 1, above, and assume the authors just didn't imagine anyone would be daft enough to teleport into a force cage, and didn't think to mention whether the force cage is a two way barrier. Until I hear otherwise from them, there's no reason to assume it isn't.

The spell seems designed to trap people in it. That's the context and intent of the spell.

Its hard to teleport out of it or to leave it once you're in it (Cha save needed). OTOH, it's simple to teleport into it (for whatever reason) and no special rules apply.

A caster could misty step into his own Forcecage easy enough. If he wanted to get out of it, he'd need to pass a Charisma save against his own Spell DC to do so.

Charisma saves traditionally target your 'soul' or 'spirit' so that further infers there is some kind of extra shenanigans going on trapping you inside the Forcecage.

[Deathtongue]

If you're a ranged caster trying to protect an area from the BSFs (like, say, a Lich) I could see the merits of intentionally teleporting into the forcecage.