View Full Version : I can't see the point of rituals
It's a neat idea, but most the spells that can be cast as rituals seem to be spells that nobody was ever using anyway, or that are "please give me a hint, GM" spells.
What's the point to this mechanic?
DaveOfTheDead
2019-01-01, 08:52 AM
It allows spellcasters to cast spells without using slots but increases the casting time by 10 minutes.
If the players have time, a wizard can cast Detect Magic as a ritual to see any magic auras or even be able to tell what school of magic it is. Maybe during a dungeon crawl, they want to be able to find out what kind of magic items they found as loot with Identify.
It saves spell slots is the main thing here.
Trustypeaches
2019-01-01, 08:54 AM
It saves me spell slots on Alarm, Detect Magic, Comprehend Languages, Tiny Hut, Silence, etc.
Just because you don't see the value of those spells doesn't mean they aren't useful.
Unoriginal
2019-01-01, 08:54 AM
It's a neat idea, but most the spells that can be cast as rituals seem to be spells that nobody was ever using anyway, or that are "please give me a hint, GM" spells.
What's the point to this mechanic?
It's to allow people to cast those spells without spending (or some would say wasting) spell slots on them, at the cost of some time.
nickl_2000
2019-01-01, 09:13 AM
My druid casts detect magic as a ritual on many adventure days to check for magical traps and hidden items. I've used detect magic to find invisible creatures too.
Also rituals are really good on a fighter with the ritual caster feats who doesn't need to worry about concentration.
If you don't see the point of water breathing ... well ... you wouldn't last 5 minutes at my gaming tables...
JackPhoenix
2019-01-01, 09:20 AM
Another point is that with Ritual Caster, anyone can use ritual spells, even people without any spellcasting. And ritual spells are generally utility spells without direct combat application: divination, communication, travel and location defenses. There are more spells that propably should've been rituals, and unless you're a wizard, tomelock or Ritual Caster, you'll need to have them prepared/known anyway. But they are great way to expand your non-combat options, and from what I know about your settings (I remember reading the old Land of the Barbarian Kings thread), they fit right in.
Damon_Tor
2019-01-01, 09:31 AM
It's to allow people to cast those spells without spending (or some would say wasting) spell slots on them, at the cost of some time.
And sometimes time is a resource you have in abundance. You're creeping through the dungeon it pays to be constantly refreshing Detect Magic: it has a 10 min duration and a 10 min casting time when cast as a ritual, which means you can just keep it "turned on" all the time. You don't have to be sitting in one spot to cast rituals, you can do it on the go. Detect Magic is great against magical traps and stuff. Unseen Servant is great against mundane traps, for that matter, so depending on the enemy you're facing you can switch up which trap detector spell you're keeping active.
Another point is that with Ritual Caster, anyone can use ritual spells, even people without any spellcasting. And ritual spells are generally utility spells without direct combat application: divination, communication, travel and location defenses. There are more spells that propably should've been rituals, and unless you're a wizard, tomelock or Ritual Caster, you'll need to have them prepared/known anyway.
The disappointing thing is how few of them there are. It looks like a really cool mechanic, but the actual spells you can use with it feel really lacking. Summoning powerful beings to make poorly thought through deals with, or opening gates to other worlds is the kind of things I would be expecting of rituals. Big things that are too difficult or take too long to have at the snap of a finger.
instead I see mostly the typical spells for making camp: alarm, detect magic, identify, tiny hut, and floating disk (to haul the loot to the campsite). Great idea, but underwhelming application.
Ganders
2019-01-01, 10:05 AM
It's a neat idea, but most the spells that can be cast as rituals seem to be spells that nobody was ever using anyway, or that are "please give me a hint, GM" spells.
What's the point to this mechanic?
You've almost answered your own question. It's for spells that nobody was using anyway. And BTW, sometimes it IS important to the plot to use a spell to get a hint, whether it be by detect magic, or locate an object, or augury, or breath underwater.
Despite all the other answeres here, it's really more a matter of spells known than spell slots. Here's how it goes: A wizard going into a dungeon wants powerful spells, mostly combat spells. He needs spells like Hold Person, Fireball, Magic Missile, and so on in order to survive. If he prepares Detect Magic, Read Magic, Speak with Animals, and Comprehend Languages, there's a good chance he'll end up dead. So in practice, PCs almost never prepare those spells. You end up with whole worlds where wizards are unable to detect magic, or cast Unseen Servant, or any other utility service. And it just didn't feel right.
So, various methods were introduced to allow wizards to do wizard-y stuff without sacrificing their combat spells. These include preparing spell scrolls ahead of time and finding wands, but those had their own issues. Rituals are something every wizard can do without spending thousands of gold, and without letting the other characters take over the wizard's role, so they work out better.
Unoriginal
2019-01-01, 10:17 AM
The disappointing thing is how few of them there are. It looks like a really cool mechanic, but the actual spells you can use with it feel really lacking. Summoning powerful beings to make poorly thought through deals with, or opening gates to other worlds is the kind of things I would be expecting of rituals. Big things that are too difficult or take too long to have at the snap of a finger.
instead I see mostly the typical spells for making camp: alarm, detect magic, identify, tiny hut, and floating disk (to haul the loot to the campsite). Great idea, but underwhelming application.
Don't be mistaken, the spells with the Ritual tags are far from the limit of rituals.
In the various books and adventure modules, plenty of other rituals are mentioned or encountered, with power ranging from "equivalent of th Bless spell but at lesser cost" to "direct Apotheosis", with things like creating monsters, granting flight for days or summoning entities in-between.
Though summoning powerful beings and opening portal to other worlds can be done with the spells Planar Ally and Gate, as well as other spells like Infernal Calling or the like.
The PBH casters get spells that are useful to make camp.... because they're adventurers and it's useful to be able to help with making camp. They don't exactly often have the occasion to spend years researching the secrets of Oorzea the Sinning in a laboratory filled with dribbling candles, colored chemicals bubbling in alambics, and a stuffed alligator suspended to the ceiling.
Particle_Man
2019-01-01, 12:13 PM
It adds flavour to the totem barbarian that they in effect get two ritual spells.
Summoning powerful beings to make poorly thought through deals with, or opening gates to other worlds is the kind of things I would be expecting of rituals.Well, you certainly don't get what rituals are, then..
Rituals exist so they don't burn spellslots - a.k.a. so that they don't cost the wizard efficiency.
You want to summon powerful beings? Look at Conjure Celestial. "casting time: 1 minute". Planar Ally? 10 minutes. These spells are what one could call, rituals (in-game; not the game mechanic).
Allowing them to do this at will / for free makes no sense at all from a balance point of view. Not if we're talking about powerful beings.
Max_Killjoy
2019-01-01, 02:10 PM
There are more spells that should have the ritual option, and some that should be ritual-only.
Chronos
2019-01-01, 02:42 PM
Some spells, effectively, are already ritual-only. Look at the casting time on Find Familiar, for instance: Even if you use a spell slot to cast it, it still takes an hour. Why would anyone ever use a spell slot on it, then?
Willie the Duck
2019-01-01, 02:43 PM
Conceptually, it is wonderful-- If a player doesn't have to choose between magic missile and comprehend language, they might actually consider picking up comprehend language.
I would love the idea of a pure, non-multiclassing tomelock be a preferred character type (and that the things a warlock did other than spamming Eldritch Bolt was the thing for which the warlock was known).
Great idea, but underwhelming application.
There are more spells that should have the ritual option, and some that should be ritual-only.
What I find most frustrating is how more valuable the ability is for wizards than for any other caster--just have the spell in your book (of which you can have as many as you can collect), and you can ritual cast it. Much better than having to have memorized it today (the cleric/druid model), or have selected it as one of your extremely limited selection of spells (bard, sorcerer, etc.).
th3g0dc0mp13x
2019-01-01, 02:53 PM
which means you can just keep it "turned on" all the time. You don't have to be sitting in one spot to cast rituals, you can do it on the go.
This would be true if detect magic wasnt concentration. As it is you will lose concentration on DM the second you start concentrating on casting a ritual spell.
Clistenes
2019-01-01, 03:01 PM
More spell slots, but only to be used out of combat.
The need to keep concentration and the limited number of spell slots prevent spellcasters from being demigods who can spawn so many powerful spells per encounter they make every other party member redundant, but they risk feeling useless at low levels if they can cast one or two spells per encounter only and then they spend the rest of the fight shooting their one damage-dealing cantrip; rituals allow them to do tons of magical stuff to help the party out of combat.
Toofey
2019-01-01, 03:12 PM
I really couldn't take this post seriously at all once she said it was spells people don't use anyway.
Teaguethebean
2019-01-01, 03:24 PM
I don't know if this was said yet but a wizard doesn't have to prepare a ritual spell allowing detect magic, comprehend languages, or even tiny hut to be used without taking a preparation slot.
What I find most frustrating is how more valuable the ability is for wizards than for any other caster--just have the spell in your book (of which you can have as many as you can collect), and you can ritual cast it. Much better than having to have memorized it today (the cleric/druid model), or have selected it as one of your extremely limited selection of spells (bard, sorcerer, etc.).
It would be more useful to have the spell available without having to rest and prepare it first, than to just save one slot and still having to prepare it.
It adds flavour to the totem barbarian that they in effect get two ritual spells.
The totem warrior is a really cool application of this. Though only because a barbarian can't cast any spells the regular way.
ImproperJustice
2019-01-01, 05:47 PM
Commune + sending is one of the greatest intelligence gathering tools of all time.
Use commune to narrow down some variables, and sending to communicate with knowledgeable allies can change the entire direction of campaigns.
Gentle repose is excellent for saving lives, and food preservation.
Tiny Disc is an excellent solution to moving heavy objects.
It’s just flat one of the best darn features ever for casters.
Add the Ritual Caster feat to a Fighter for some unprecedented utility sometime.
JumboWheat01
2019-01-01, 06:42 PM
...or have selected it as one of your extremely limited selection of spells (bard, sorcerer, etc.).
Unfortunately, Sorcerers cannot cast spells as Rituals without the feat. In fact, Bards are the only "spells known" class that can cast Rituals. Warlocks have to rely on Tome upgrades, which actually makes them better than Wizards unless you limit them to a single class, and Rangers can't cast rituals either.
Regardless, like unlimited Cantrips, I rather like Ritual spells, since it lets your spell caster be more, well, castery throughout the day instead of hording their spell slots just in case they need them. Will you need the spells tagged as Rituals all the time? Probably not, but being able to use them when you do need them without wasting any of your spell casting potential for the day is a very useful thing.
olskool
2019-01-01, 06:48 PM
Well, you certainly don't get what rituals are, then..
Rituals exist so they don't burn spellslots - a.k.a. so that they don't cost the wizard efficiency.
Do you want to summon powerful beings? Look at Conjure Celestial. "casting time: 1 minute". Planar Ally? 10 minutes. These spells are what one could call, rituals (in-game; not the game mechanic).
Allowing them to do this at will / for free makes no sense at all from a balance point of view. Not if we're talking about powerful beings.
We added the House Mechanic that Rituals REQUIRE a Task Roll. Failing the roll makes the Ritual one level of difficulty harder (+5 to DC) until you have no chance to successfully cast it at all. We use the Caster's ability Modifiers (I used the elven Wizard from the quickstarter set with his +5 to Casting) against the Arcanna Skill Proficiency using the following situatiional Skill Level DCs;
Casting in a SAFE place = DC 5+
Casting in a Quiet and Relatively Protected Place (a quiet glade or campsite in the woods) = DC 10+
Casting When Enemies Are Nearby = DC 15+
A failed Ritual still consumes any Material Components during the casting attempt. We also add the following restriction. You cannot cast a Ritual Spell while you are holding a Spell that requires Concentration.
th3g0dc0mp13x
2019-01-01, 06:54 PM
We also add the following restriction. You cannot cast a Ritual Spell while you are holding a Spell that requires Concentration.
That's actually just following RAW.
Longer Casting Times pg 202
Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see "Concentration" below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
olskool
2019-01-01, 07:15 PM
That's actually just following RAW.
Longer Casting Times pg 202
Certain spells (including spells cast as rituals) require more time to cast: minutes or even hours. When you cast a spell with a casting time longer than a single action or reaction, you must spend your action each turn casting the spell, and you must maintain your concentration while you do so (see "Concentration" below). If your concentration is broken, the spell fails, but you don't expend a spell slot. If you want to try casting the spell again, you must start over.
I have been told that a number of DMs ignore that restriction for Ritual Casting. I suggested to him that it needed to stay and he agreed. I guess I'm the first Wizard he has ever had who ROUTINELY uses Ritual Casting. It really is too useful not to have certain limits on its use.
Chronos
2019-01-01, 10:20 PM
Yes, other classes aren't as good at rituals as wizards are. That's one of the perks of the wizard class, and it fits in well with the wizard's style. The wizard is the Swiss army knife caster, with all of the utility spells which might not come up very often, but when they come up they're great. This is also reflected in their spell list, which is heavy on spells of that sort, and on their being prepared casters, unlike all of the limited spells known casters. Other classes have other advantages.
Mordaedil
2019-01-02, 04:23 AM
I remember when D&D went over to 4th edition, one of the big things I hated about the switch was that they really neutered the wizard's spell list and converted a lot of to ritual-only mechanic.
But reading the ritual section, I kinda liked the idea behind it and wanted it to be implemented better in a 3rd edition-like ruleset. 5th edition gave me pretty much this, so I'm kinda happy with how it works, even if I do agree a lot more spells ought to be rituals and maybe have some specific writing for "when cast as ritual". Reward players who spend their slots, but not to the extent of making ritual casting useless, basically.
Jerrykhor
2019-01-02, 12:17 PM
The only ritual that is next to useless is Illusory Script.
But like what others have said, speak for yourself, peasant. If you can't find a use for rituals, you should stick to Champion Fighters since the game is obviously too complicated for you.
Sigreid
2019-01-02, 12:44 PM
The disappointing thing is how few of them there are. It looks like a really cool mechanic, but the actual spells you can use with it feel really lacking. Summoning powerful beings to make poorly thought through deals with, or opening gates to other worlds is the kind of things I would be expecting of rituals. Big things that are too difficult or take too long to have at the snap of a finger.
instead I see mostly the typical spells for making camp: alarm, detect magic, identify, tiny hut, and floating disk (to haul the loot to the campsite). Great idea, but underwhelming application.
Nothing really stops you from making some powerful and thematic ritual only spells. Like the summoning of Tiamat in one of the published adventures. Heck, the Palladium system had an entire class that revolved around magic circles that could be drawn and activated at will, provided you had the time and components. Some were pretty awesome, but took a lot of time and expensive materials to setup. Some were dangerous as summoning a demon or devil is always a chancy thing and usually not the best idea.
Tvtyrant
2019-01-02, 01:53 PM
It's a neat idea, but most the spells that can be cast as rituals seem to be spells that nobody was ever using anyway, or that are "please give me a hint, GM" spells.
What's the point to this mechanic?
5E rituals seem to be built as a way of adding back some of the Batman Wizard to the game without 3.5s giant pile of spell slots. You can't cast fireball 44 times a day, but you can still knock a door and detect magic.
I've been playing with the idea of introducing the 4E rituals and some 3.5 spells as rituals that can only be gained by taking the ritualist feat. I like high magic to be an option, and having to spend a feat per two high magic spells seems fair.
holywhippet
2019-01-02, 03:42 PM
I've used detect magic to find invisible creatures too.
That's not actually possible by RAW. Detect magic can only sense magic on visible creatures.
jaappleton
2019-01-02, 03:44 PM
Ritual Casting is amazing simply for this one spell:
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Giving your party a free place to take a long rest is especially amazing.
Potato_Priest
2019-01-02, 03:46 PM
Another awesome ritual spell is Commune- getting to ask three or more yes or no questions of your DM god per long rest for free is incredible. For maximum points, cast it from the safety of the wizard's tiny hut.
MaxWilson
2019-01-02, 03:50 PM
Another awesome ritual spell is Commune- getting to ask three or more yes or no questions of your DM god per long rest for free is incredible. For maximum points, cast it from the safety of the wizard's tiny hut.
Augury is pretty good too. "Should I attune this ring?" "Should I kick down this door?" Etc.
Potato_Priest
2019-01-02, 04:05 PM
Augury is pretty good too. "Should I attune this ring?" "Should I kick down this door?" Etc.
Hmm, that's a good point. I always passed that one up because I wanted to use it for more long-term questions, for which the only possible answer is weal and woe, but using it on short term things like traps is a good suggestion.
Another awesome ritual spell is Commune- getting to ask three or more yes or no questions of your DM god per long rest for free is incredible. For maximum points, cast it from the safety of the wizard's tiny hut.
a cool use for it is when you use it to progressively get the geographical direction toward the mac guffin.
Max_Killjoy
2019-01-02, 05:49 PM
Do need to be careful where you stop and take time to do some of these... "Should I kick this door down?" isn't always the sort of thing one is lucky enough to have time for, either due to what's beyond the door in need of possible kicking (hostage situation, assassination attempt, etc) or because of threats that might appear in the middle of the ritual (guards, wandering monsters, whatever).
Chronos
2019-01-02, 07:33 PM
Quoth noob:
a cool use for it [Augury] is when you use it to progressively get the geographical direction toward the mac guffin.
I don't think that works. Being closer to the McGuffin isn't weal. Actually getting it probably is, but that's likely to be outside of the half-hour window.
Potato_Priest
2019-01-02, 07:35 PM
I don't think that works. Being closer to the McGuffin isn't weal. Actually getting it probably is, but that's likely to be outside of the half-hour window.
The poster you're quoting was actually referring to the commune spell, which gives yes or no answers rather than Weal or Woe.
MaxWilson
2019-01-02, 07:43 PM
Do need to be careful where you stop and take time to do some of these... "Should I kick this door down?" isn't always the sort of thing one is lucky enough to have time for, either due to what's beyond the door in need of possible kicking (hostage situation, assassination attempt, etc) or because of threats that might appear in the middle of the ritual (guards, wandering monsters, whatever).
Yes, which questions you ask depends very much on the style of game. In a hostage rescue situation, there isn't much question: you're going to kick down the door and kill what's on the other side of it. I had in mind more of a Tomb of Horrors-style dungeoncrawl/roguelike game where the DM is tempting you to do various possibly-stupid, possibly-rewarding things like open chests, drink funny-looking potions, kiss sleeping princesses, etc. Even there Augury has only limited utility because it doesn't tell you how good or bad the thing is, and it can only be used so often, but hey, some information is better than none.
Luccan
2019-01-02, 07:43 PM
It's a neat idea, but most the spells that can be cast as rituals seem to be spells that nobody was ever using anyway, or that are "please give me a hint, GM" spells.
What's the point to this mechanic?
While I disagree with your assertion (particularly "spells that nobody was ever using") I also think you partially answered your own question. It incentivizes their use if you don't have to spend a spell slot on it, doesn't it? So that's at least one reason: it makes those spells more appealing to cast because it won't cost you any resources except time.
Laserlight
2019-01-02, 07:44 PM
In just this last session, I used Det Magic, Water Walk, and Divination.
I think OP is saying, though, that Rituals ought to be something big, that takes the combined effort of several casters, over hours, and may need a skill roll or a specific time or location ("a coven of nine witches, on Mt Baddoom, at midnight on the autumn equinox"). I agree that D&D ought to have some way to do that, but...
MaxWilson
2019-01-02, 08:06 PM
In just this last session, I used Det Magic, Water Walk, and Divination.
I think OP is saying, though, that Rituals ought to be something big, that takes the combined effort of several casters, over hours, and may need a skill roll or a specific time or location ("a coven of nine witches, on Mt Baddoom, at midnight on the autumn equinox"). I agree that D&D ought to have some way to do that, but...
It makes me wish they had decided to call spells-that-don't-cost-a-spell-slot-and-take-10-extra-minutes something other than "rituals," so you could save the label "ritual magic" for stuff that's a big deal and has lots of special conditions. I guess you could have called it "ceremonial magic."
Like many people I suppose, I've got my own rules for actual, big, special condition-filled rituals, loosely inspired by the Dresden Files. They are the same as my rules for alchemy, and have a couple of conditions:
(1) The ritual's author has to come up with their own ingredients, of which there are a set number that must be supplied for each ritual (base/sight/sound/touch/taste/smell/heart/spirit, all related to the desire effect). Each one triggers an Arcana check to see if the ingredient was appropriate and appropriately-applied; the DC of the Arcana check is based on DM's judgment call of how well it matches the desired effect; trying to use rhinoceros hide for a Potion of Invulnerability is not terrible but is a bit of a stretch (call it DC 15), but the hide of a Tarrasque would be ideal (DC 0). This puts the creative burden on the players instead of the DM.
(2) There's a target number you're trying to reach, and the margin of success for each ingredient gets added to that target number, or subtracted in case of failure. Failures may also cause quirks and unexpected side effects in the final result even if it does work. This ensures that there is dramatic tension in the crafting.
(3) Any given recipe can only ever be used once, which is why wizards are so secretive: you don't want to finally get around to conducting your Ritual of Everlasting Youth to find that it doesn't work because some fool stole the recipe ninety years ago and used it. This limits the stakes for the DM and makes it easier to adjudicate on the fly: even if DCs wind up being too easy or the target number is too generous, PCs won't be setting up assembly lines to mass-produce items exploiting the DM's mistake. It also replicates something like the feel of classic fantasy literature like The Misenchanted Sword.
Max_Killjoy
2019-01-02, 08:43 PM
It makes me wish they had decided to call spells-that-don't-cost-a-spell-slot-and-take-10-extra-minutes something other than "rituals," so you could save the label "ritual magic" for stuff that's a big deal and has lots of special conditions. I guess you could have called it "ceremonial magic."
Like many people I suppose, I've got my own rules for actual, big, special condition-filled rituals, loosely inspired by the Dresden Files. They are the same as my rules for alchemy, and have a couple of conditions:
(1) The ritual's author has to come up with their own ingredients, of which there are a set number that must be supplied for each ritual (base/sight/sound/touch/taste/smell/heart/spirit, all related to the desire effect). Each one triggers an Arcana check to see if the ingredient was appropriate and appropriately-applied; the DC of the Arcana check is based on DM's judgment call of how well it matches the desired effect; trying to use rhinoceros hide for a Potion of Invulnerability is not terrible but is a bit of a stretch (call it DC 15), but the hide of a Tarrasque would be ideal (DC 0). This puts the creative burden on the players instead of the DM.
(2) There's a target number you're trying to reach, and the margin of success for each ingredient gets added to that target number, or subtracted in case of failure. Failures may also cause quirks and unexpected side effects in the final result even if it does work. This ensures that there is dramatic tension in the crafting.
(3) Any given recipe can only ever be used once, which is why wizards are so secretive: you don't want to finally get around to conducting your Ritual of Everlasting Youth to find that it doesn't work because some fool stole the recipe ninety years ago and used it. This limits the stakes for the DM and makes it easier to adjudicate on the fly: even if DCs wind up being too easy or the target number is too generous, PCs won't be setting up assembly lines to mass-produce items exploiting the DM's mistake. It also replicates something like the feel of classic fantasy literature like The Misenchanted Sword.
Eventually ritual magic goes out of the world entirely -- all the formulas with a decent chance of working get used up, the magic gets harder until it fails a lot, and the secretive wizards who do get something to work guard their knowledge jealously and intensely, until everyone forgets it was ever possible and it's just the stuff of myth and faerie tale.
MaxWilson
2019-01-02, 09:56 PM
Eventually ritual magic goes out of the world entirely -- all the formulas with a decent chance of working get used up, the magic gets harder until it fails a lot, and the secretive wizards who do get something to work guard their knowledge jealously and intensely, until everyone forgets it was ever possible and it's just the stuff of myth and faerie tale.
Interesting idea, but that's not how it works under the rules I'm using. As long as you invent your recipe yourself, it counts as a new recipe, even if it happens to be identical to one used by someone else at some point without your knowledge. So as long as you keep your secrets to yourself you're safe. (Any other way would be a huge pain for the players.)
Max_Killjoy
2019-01-02, 10:05 PM
Interesting idea, but that's not how it works under the rules I'm using. As long as you invent your recipe yourself, it counts as a new recipe, even if it happens to be identical to one used by someone else at some point without your knowledge. So as long as you keep your secrets to yourself you're safe. (Any other way would be a huge pain for the players.)
AH, OK, it's not that someone else used that formula at some point -- it's specifically that you created it and then they used it before you could. Interesting.
I wonder if there is merit to a system where all spells are rituals, and spell slot system is the caster carrying around 99% of the spell. This is similar to what is already the case, but bringing back the differential prep time. (10 minutes/level). The difference here is that you can use ritualised magic to cast "at will", using the time required.
With this sort of system, I would have 3 additions:
1) Cantrips are the base sparks that influences what spells you can cast that day (Spare the Dying -> Healing spells, Fire bolt -> Fire spells, Resistance -> Shield).
2) An upcasted spell ritual acts like a higher level spell.
3) Scrolls are a casters notes on ritual casting (a caster can ritually cast using a scroll and providing any costly components, or cast from the scroll and consume the scroll)
So you want to heal 5 people 1d8 + WIS? That's going to be nearly an hour of healing.
I like the idea that Clerics can make a "Book of Prayers" over time that can function a a Clerical Ritual book, or a stack of Clerical scrolls. And the Ritual Caster (Cleric) fighter using the downed Cleric's holy book as a last ditch healing attempt. Maybe the ornate cover of the magic tomes are the components for the book.
Sigreid
2019-01-03, 12:03 AM
I wonder if there is merit to a system where all spells are rituals, and spell slot system is the caster carrying around 99% of the spell. This is similar to what is already the case, but bringing back the differential prep time. (10 minutes/level). The difference here is that you can use ritualised magic to cast "at will", using the time required.
With this sort of system, I would have 3 additions:
1) Cantrips are the base sparks that influences what spells you can cast that day (Spare the Dying -> Healing spells, Fire bolt -> Fire spells, Resistance -> Shield).
2) An upcasted spell ritual acts like a higher level spell.
3) Scrolls are a casters notes on ritual casting (a caster can ritually cast using a scroll and providing any costly components, or cast from the scroll and consume the scroll)
So you want to heal 5 people 1d8 + WIS? That's going to be nearly an hour of healing.
I like the idea that Clerics can make a "Book of Prayers" over time that can function a a Clerical Ritual book, or a stack of Clerical scrolls. And the Ritual Caster (Cleric) fighter using the downed Cleric's holy book as a last ditch healing attempt. Maybe the ornate cover of the magic tomes are the components for the book.
Your first paragraph is basically how it worked way back in the beginning of D&D. The wizards spell slot list wasn't spells per day, it was spells prepared at a time. If you played by the rules (and I know no one who did) it could take a high level wizard days or even weeks of preparation to re-prepare his spell list if he flattened it.
MaxWilson
2019-01-03, 12:52 AM
AH, OK, it's not that someone else used that formula at some point -- it's specifically that you created it and then they used it before you could. Interesting.
Yeah, basically it just explains why you can't typically buy alchemical/ritual formulas from other wizards instead of creating your own. It puts all the burden on the players to exercise creativity and initiative.
Your first paragraph is basically how it worked way back in the beginning of D&D. The wizards spell slot list wasn't spells per day, it was spells prepared at a time. If you played by the rules (and I know no one who did) it could take a high level wizard days or even weeks of preparation to re-prepare his spell list if he flattened it.
That's where I am drawing the inspiration from. In the old system, that was a pain because spells memorised was tied to spell slots. Now, they are not connected. So if you use the same list over and over, you are fine, but if you need to switch them out it takes time. Really, alchemy, scrolls, and spell preparations should all have similar time scales.
To make choices matter, you would probably need to make around 7 useful cantrip spells, and then have prepared casters able to memorise 4 of them, meaning that they are likely not going to be able to prepare for everything all the time. It will likely result in standardised tactical "lists" but that is too be expected.
For sorcerors, I would have their bloodlines give specific cantrips and expanded spell options, along side the standard caster set of 4 (or maybe caster stat modifier), and then go from there. Since everyone casts comparably to the old Sorceror, having a spellpoint system that is combined with the sorcery point system so that there is only 1 resource tracked for meta magic on spells would work well for a differentiation between the two caster types.
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