Two-Weapon Fighting build assistance

[Waifu]

Hey, all. It's been quite a long while since I've last touched anything D&D related, and my old group is getting back together for a good old-fashioned 3.5 campaign starting at level 3. The DM kindly asked all of us that we tone down our usual power level by a notch or two (to give you guys an idea, the last campaign we did, I played a beguiler who had a save DC of 21 for their 0th-level illusion spells-it was a little cheesy) and I think TWF would be perfect for this. Right now, I have my heart set on going into the Dervish PrC, but where I'm getting stuck at is which class or classes I should go into beforehand. I've been looking at Swashbuckler for free weapon finesse and int to damage, but Warblade is also looking pretty attractive for its D12 hit die and maneuvers. I've also heard good things about Barbarian where you can use rage as a backup for dervish dance and Ranger for how much it assists TWF. It is to my understanding that I'd need a really good reason to sacrifice BAB, especially at low levels, though I'm not too sure how true that is..
My stats are as follows, and can be rearranged if need be. I decided to play human, but that can be changed as well.
13 STR
17 DEX
14 CON
16 INT
11 WIS
6 CHA
Thanks in advance!

[gorfnab]

Here is a Two Weapon Fighting Dervish build that might work for you.

Human
Scout (CA) 5/ Ranger - Arcane Hunter ACF (CM) 2/ Barbarian - Whirling Frenzy (UA) ACF, Spiritual Totem: Lion (CC) ACF, City Brawler (Drg#349) ACF 1/ Dervish (CW) 9/ Scout 3
Feats:
1. Expeditious Dodge (RotW) or regular Dodge, Mobility
3. Weapon Finesse
4. B: Combat Expertise
6. Weapon Focus Scimitar
7. B: Two Weapon Fighting
9. Improved Two Weapon Fighting
12. Swift Hunter (CS)
15. Greater Two Weapon Fighting
18. *Open Feat*
20. B: Improved Skirmish (CS)

*Open Feat Options* - Extra Rage (CW, set to Whirling Frenzy), Elusive Target (CW), Combat Reflexes, Deadly Defense (CS), Flay Foe (CoR), or Nemesis (BoED, combos with Arcane Hunter Ranger ACF)

[Rebel7284]

Dervish isn't that good, so a pretty good match for "not too optimized" requirement!

Barbarian 1/Hit and Run Fighter 1/Warblade 3/Revenant Blade 5/ Dervish 10

You could dip Cobra Strike Monk 2 for Invisible Fist, Perform Dance, and two feats, but that does slow your BAB. Also requires an alignment change (lawful->chaotic) if you also want barbarian.

[Max Caysey]

Hey, all. It's been quite a long while since I've last touched anything D&D related, and my old group is getting back together for a good old-fashioned 3.5 campaign starting at level 3. The DM kindly asked all of us that we tone down our usual power level by a notch or two (to give you guys an idea, the last campaign we did, I played a beguiler who had a save DC of 21 for their 0th-level illusion spells-it was a little cheesy) and I think TWF would be perfect for this. Right now, I have my heart set on going into the Dervish PrC, but where I'm getting stuck at is which class or classes I should go into beforehand. I've been looking at Swashbuckler for free weapon finesse and int to damage, but Warblade is also looking pretty attractive for its D12 hit die and maneuvers. I've also heard good things about Barbarian where you can use rage as a backup for dervish dance and Ranger for how much it assists TWF. It is to my understanding that I'd need a really good reason to sacrifice BAB, especially at low levels, though I'm not too sure how true that is..
My stats are as follows, and can be rearranged if need be. I decided to play human, but that can be changed as well.
13 STR
17 DEX
14 CON
16 INT
11 WIS
6 CHA
Thanks in advance!

Dont have odd numbered stats... take one from wis and place it in Dex.

[tiercel]

TWF wants a couple of major things:

1) The ability to full attack most rounds
2) Some kind of bonus damage that applies to each hit

If you’re not mega-optimizing, you may not need at-will Pounce plus bardic Inspire Courage optimization for fistfuls of d6 for every swing, but you’ll probably want at least a bit of (1) and (2).

A couple of the most usual tricks for (1) include Travel Devotion (possibly with a [Cloistered] Cleric 1 dip) or Barbarian 1, Lion Totem ACF for Pounce, but there is a handbook full of various ways to get pounce/extra movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?103358-3-X-Ways-to-get-Pounce-or-Free-Movement). (Even just picking up some useful magic-item-trinkets helps.)

As for bonus damage, Swashbuckler has Int to damage; the Shadow Blade feat does Dex to Damage if you can swing a Shadow Hand stance; Daring Outlaw feat gives you Swashbuckler’s Int to damge plus Rogue’s Sneak Attack, all with nearly full BAB (arguably making Dervish unnecessary); Song of the White Raven feat means you can dial up whatever optimization level of Inspire Courage fits your campaign on a Warblade (or Crusader) build; Knowledge Devotion is good if you like Int-focused melee and have the skill points and access to Knowledge skills to back it up; and, of course, there’s a general TWF Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook) as well

[Sleven]

Revenant Blade is an excellent option if the OP is willing to build around strength. I don't think you can go wrong with a Ranger 2/Unarmed Swordsage 2/Fighter 2/Dervish 9/Revenant Blade 5 in such a case. Swordsage looks great on dervish builds, even better if you're willing to swap Int and Wis. It lets you get the Wis bonus to AC while still being able to wear light armor (something that the Dervish's AC bonus allows for as well).

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Word Given Form. It's not a feat, but if you can swing 12 points in Truespeak (Aereni Focus or other such feats will do) all you need is Improved Unarmed Strike to find yourself with total concealment against a single enemy (or multiple with feats like Expeditious Dodge or Desert Wind Dodge).

If you don't like Revenant Blade or Word Given Form, consider Kalashtar for Dancing with Shadows. Graceful Lunge -> Lingering Defense + Elaborate Parry + Desert Wind Dodge is a pretty nice bonus to AC with no drawbacks (other than the 2 feats). Just remember to put 5 ranks in Tumble for the extra dodge bonus to AC.

Beware of dexterity builds that rely on Shadow Blade, as it only works with Shadow Hand weapons (of which the Dagger and Kama are the only slashing weapons). Of course, you can always throw all of that out the window and go with one of my favorite builds: the Shar worshiping skirmishing Halfling Monk 7 / Dervish 9-10 / Blade Dancer 1-2 / etc. that uses their unarmed strikes as slashing weapons via the Versatile Unarmed Strike feat (from Secrets of Sarlona or PHBII). That way you get total concealment without having to worry about Truespeak and get one of the best weapons in the game as part of your Dervish Dance. Don't forget to take Mantis Leap and make a jump check for every 5ft of movement you take. That way you get another bonus attack in addition to the one your full-attack action Dervish Dance gives you (EDIT: that's every time you make the jump check, btw). Of course, if having 32 Int is "OP" (it's really not that hard to get), just ignore this advice and use someone else's build recommendation.

[Twurps]

I've recently made a dervish build as well. I was aiming for an even lower power level, so the build itself isn't all that relevant, but here's some observations on what I've seen mentioned so far:

Initiator classes: I love them, and usually dip them whenever I can. They all focus on standard action attacks though. A dervish wants to full attack. So they don't really work together well.

Barbarian dip: Pounce is nice, but as a dervish, you can already move your full movement speed and full-attack. Also: you give up fast movement when taking pounce. On a dervish, I think fast movement might be worth more. As those 10 extra feat might just be what gets you out of 'full-attack' range at the end of your turn. Rage is nice, but with only 1 level, you only get it 1/day. Of course there's 'extra rage', but you'll be feat starved with TWF already. Most importantly: you can't dervish dance while raging.

What might work is a 2-level dip in the 'wildrunner' PrC (RotW). You have to be an elf, and there's a 1 feat tax. But at lvl2 it gets a primal scream ability. Which is a bit like rage, exept you get in multiple times a day right away, and it boosts your dex by 6, which is a better stat to boost if you're finessing, tubling, and getting dex to damage somehow (hit and run tactics fighter?). (Also: it's a non-provoking free action, so you can get the boost to your initiative roll). As an additional bonus: you get fast movement as well.

It's a bit in 'Ask your DM' territory though. A dervish dance doesn't work with a rage or frenzy ability. This is called 'primal scream' so not rage/frenzy, but it's very close. I can see a DM rule it either way. If it were up to me, I'd say even if it shouldn't work together, I'd allow it anyway. TWF needs all the help it can get.

Seconding the Fighter dip (2 levels). Mainly for 'hit and run tactics' (DotU), but off course the feats help as well. After that: probably ranger for the skill points and TWF at lvl2. I haven't been able to find a full-bab class that offers dance and tuble as class skills. So extra skill point to pay for those cross-class are nice. As a bonus, should you go the 'wildrunner' route. Ranger 3 offers endurance, which is the feat tax for it. So Fighter2-Ranger3 is a good way to get the +5bab and all prereq's out of the way.

[Sleven]

Likely another "abandoned" thread, but I couldn't resist a nitpick.


Initiator classes: I love them, and usually dip them whenever I can. They all focus on standard action attacks though. A dervish wants to full attack. So they don't really work together well.

This is just plain false. An astounding number of maneuvers are in fact stances that take no actions to maintain and a swift to activate. Even more are Boost and Counters that are swift or immediate actions (respectively), many of them more than capable of boosting a Dervish's attack patterns and providing defenses. You can only ready so many maneuvers, even as low-option initiator classes, so having an arsenal of exclusively (or near-exclusively depending on the level and class you enter) is trivial at worst.

[Darrin]

One of the more optimized Dervish entries:

1) Ranger 1. Feat: Travel Devotion. Bonus: Track. Human: ? (maybe take Travel Devotion x2?)
2) Ranger 2. Bonus: TWF.
3) Fighter 1. Feat: Expeditious Dodge. Bonus: Weapon Focus.
4) Fighter 2. Bonus: Mobility.
5) Swashbuckler 1. Bonus: Weapon Finesse.
6) -> 15) Dervish 10.
16) -> 20) could be more Ranger, maybe a splash of Soldier of Light (for Turn Undead), or Revenant Blade 5. Avoid Tempest, it's a trap.

Ah, Dervish... one of the rough spots in the TWF OffHandbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?279079-3-5-The-TWF-OffHandbook). Dervish is a little problematic because it doesn't leave a lot of room to fit in some bonus damage. Swashbuckler 3 is kinda weak... you already need a high Str for melee and high Dex for TWF, so how high exactly is your Int really going to be? Usually it's better to just invest your resources into more Str/Dex. On the other hand, Swashbuckler 3 is one of the less resource-intensive methods to get some bonus damage.

Power Attack + Oversized TWF is another possibility for bonus damage, but winds up following the Ubercharger route for the most part (Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, etc.). Unfortunately, this works against your Slashing Blades ability, and sucks up feats that you might need elsewhere. If Flaws are available, this is probably your strongest option.

Precision damage is a little tricky... you can eventually get Martial Study: Cloak of Deception + Martial Stance: Assassin's Stance + Craven going, but that doesn't really click in until ECL 12 or 15ish. Flaws make this a little easier, as would a Warblade/Swordsage dip, but getting a high enough Initiator Level for Assassin's Stance is still going to take until at least ECL 10ish. Sneak-Attack Fighter is doable, and you could possibly get Highland Stalker 4 for a little Skirmish damage, but that could be a *long* wait.

Fighter 4/Swashbuckler 1/Dervish 10/Something 5, take Weapon Specialization + Melee Weapon Mastery for +4 damage, that could be somewhat decent in a casual-optimization game.