Daggermaster feat

[CTurbo]

I like the idea of a feat that boosts the common dagger. I want to make a full feat, not a half feat.

I've been drawing inspiration from the 4e's Daggermaster.

I was thinking about a proper balance of 3 points.

1. Gain +1 to all attacks made using a dagger.

2. You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18–20.

3. ???


Originally for #3 I was thinking about "Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls made with a dagger", but I think it's silly to be able to be any kind of accurate with a dagger from 60ft, and that poaches a feature from Sharpshooter anyway.

I thought about #3 being an extra +1 AC as long as you're wielding a dagger in your offhand

I thought about replacing #2 with "On your turn, when you score a melee critical hit with a dagger, you can immediately make one melee weapon attack against the same creature. "

What would be a good 3rd feature?

[EggKookoo]

Maybe something that helps you if the other guy has a dagger?

3: If a creature without this feature attacks you with a dagger and misses, you may use your reaction to make a single dagger attack against it.

Or something like that?

[Crgaston]

I like this idea. Expanded Crit range is typically a class feature, though. To keep this in line with other Feats, how about...

2. When you make a ranged attack with a dagger, it is treated as having the Ammunition property for you.
3. Being within 5 feet of a hostile creature doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged attack rolls.

[Digimike]

How about something like...

1. Gain +1 to all attacks made using a dagger.
2. When dual wielding daggers, you may add your strength or dexterity modifier to the damage when attacking with your off hand as a bonus action.
3. When scoring a critical hit you may add an additional d4 to the attack's damage on top of any class or racial features.

[mer.c]

I feel like your #2 or #3 would be well-served by relaxing the drawing restriction. It’s not a big deal for melee combat, but throwers are limited to one throw per round unless they started combat with weapons drawn. And even then, they end up at one attack per round within a few rounds of throwing (although they can periodically duck into melee to draw back up without missing attacks).

The simplest way would just be to crib Dual-Wielder’s double-draw feature and apply it only to daggers. I’ve been trying out giving daggers the Tiny property, which relaxes their draw restrictions. I like the latter since it’s thematic and gives daggers a niche.

[CTurbo]

I was also considering

1. Gain +1 to attacks using a dagger
2. When you roll a critical hit with a dagger, roll an additional 2d4 and add it to the damage
3. When you hit with an melee attack with a dagger, you can use your bonus action to make a ranged attack with the same dagger at a different enemy within range.


or

3. When you hit with a melee weapon attack, you can use your bonus action to make a ranged attack against a different enemy within 30ft with a dagger you are holding in your off-hand. This attack uses the same ability modifier as the primary attack.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I would favor the second iteration over the first. A crit range of 18-20 is a 15th level class feature for Champion fighters and the last thing you're going to want to see at your table are Rogue's and Paladin's running around with butter knives and a 15% crit chance.

[Unoriginal]

How about "drawing a dagger does not cost you your free item interaction"?

[Trickery]

I would think about how daggers are used and come up with something unique to the weapon type.

For example, weapon attacks have disadvantage when you're squeezing through a smaller space. Should daggers?

Historically, daggers were used against armored opponents because you can fit them into the gaps (look up dagger of mercy). A bonus to hit against armored opponents would make sense, since some of their AC comes from armor that would be more effective against a sword than a dagger. (Realistically, the same bonus should apply to bludgeoning weapons, but I digress.)

[CTurbo]

Historically, daggers were used against armored opponents because you can fit them into the gaps (look up dagger of mercy). A bonus to hit against armored opponents would make sense, since some of their AC comes from armor that would be more effective against a sword than a dagger. (Realistically, the same bonus should apply to bludgeoning weapons, but I digress.)

This is partially why I really like the idea of daggers having a crit boost, because when they do hit just right, they can be devastating.

I was thinking about something like ongoing "bleeding" damage on a crit. Like-

When you make a critical hit with a dagger, the creature takes 5 damage(no save) at the beginning of each of it's turns until healed.

But that could be complicated and there is no other feature similar to that in 5e that I'm aware of.

[Trickery]

This is partially why I really like the idea of daggers having a crit boost, because when they do hit just right, they can be devastating.

I was thinking about something like ongoing "bleeding" damage on a crit. Like-

When you make a critical hit with a dagger, the creature takes 5 damage(no save) at the beginning of each of it's turns until healed.

But that could be complicated and there is no other feature similar to that in 5e that I'm aware of.

Poisoned is similar to that. "A poisoned creature has disadvantage on Attack rolls and Ability Checks."

If you want to mimic bleeding, you could do something like this: "When you score a critical hit against a target that can bleed, it has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks until it recovers hit points. A creature can also end this effect on itself or another creature using a medicine kit." That's powerful, so I would be sure to play test it.

[Helldin87]

IMO Avoid defensive abilities. With daggers you don't realistically have the ability to parry like you might with a longer weapon like a sword.

Daggers are really weapons of last resort and skullduggery and as noted above the real damage potential comes from carefully placing your strike.

1. When attacking with daggers as a bonus action you may lower your target's AC by D6 for all other attacks you make with daggers for the remainder of your turn.

This would maybe represent your ability to pick your strike well. It would increase your average DPR by making your attacks hit more often but not unrealistically inflate the actual damage done with each ability. There are many spells and effects in-game that INCREASE AC but I can't think of any that decrease a target's AC? Using your bonus action becomes a real choice since you are forfeiting TWF in that case. Against enemies that are just really well armored though maybe taking your time to plan that perfect hit is more important than death by a thousand cuts that bounce off armor? I picked D6 but maybe a D4 is more appropriate? What do y'all think?

[Potato_Priest]

As far as the first feature goes, the two suggestions so far will incentivize dagger use by rather different classes. Here's a probably not all-inclusive list of the classes that have noticeable synergies with the feat under each version.

First version-expanded crit range
All Rogues
Paladins
College of Secrets Bards

Second Version- Extra damage on a crit
All spellcasters with Hold Person
Champion Fighters
Assassin Rogues only

Although there are unideal items on either list (paladins on the first, champions on the second) I in general prefer the first list for its inclusion of all rogues, who I feel should thematically be among the best with daggers.

As for a good third feature, an explicitly written ability to conceal daggers on your person with a very high TN to find them would be sweet.

[JackPhoenix]

Historically, daggers were used against armored opponents because you can fit them into the gaps (look up dagger of mercy). A bonus to hit against armored opponents would make sense, since some of their AC comes from armor that would be more effective against a sword than a dagger. (Realistically, the same bonus should apply to bludgeoning weapons, but I digress.)

Daggers were used to finish DISABLED armored opponent. Dagger is worse than a sword against someone in plate armor who's able to defend himself.

You know, like a rogue with sneak attack.

[Misterwhisper]

1. You gain +1 to hit with daggers

2. You may make an attack with a dagger as a bonus action if you make an attack with another one handed weapon as part of your attack action.

3. Drawing a dagger costs you no action and may be made as part of rolling initiative.

[Wildarm]

I'd recommend some sort of sharpshooter hybrid:

Dagger Master:

- Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged dagger attack rolls.
- Before you make an attack with a dagger you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.
- Drawing a dagger is a free action for you

[Foxhound438]

I'd recommend some sort of sharpshooter hybrid:

Dagger Master:

- Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged dagger attack rolls.
- Before you make an attack with a dagger you can choose to take a -5 penalty to the attack roll. If the attack hits, you add +10 to the attack's damage.
- Drawing a dagger is a free action for you

that'd be good for a monk, but it'd be nothing new for fighters and rogues that can throw darts with sharpshooter... I guess drawing more efficiently would be a good thing though.

[olskool]

Daggermaster FEAT:

-Drawing a dagger is a free action.
- You get DOUBLE your Proficiency Bonus on To Hit Rolls.
- You may take either your DEX MOD OR your STR MOD to all Damage Rolls.

[Potato_Priest]

that'd be good for a monk, but it'd be nothing new for fighters and rogues that can throw darts with sharpshooter... I guess drawing more efficiently would be a good thing though.

I don't have a phb handy so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that sharpshooter's -5/+10 only works with ranged weapons, and that thrown weapons are a different category. Of course, if a player came to me wanting to take sharpshooter and use it on javelins or darts I wouldn't hesitate to allow it but that's a different thing from it being RAW.


Daggermaster FEAT:


If I may make some pedantic suggestions, I'd change the text a bit on this. Green text is stuff I've inserted.


-Drawing a dagger is a free action. does not prevent you from interacting with another object for free on your turn.
- You get DOUBLE your Proficiency Bonus on To Hit Rolls made with daggers.
- You may take either your DEX MOD OR your STR MOD to all Damage Rolls.

[Misterwhisper]

Daggermaster FEAT:

-Drawing a dagger is a free action.
- You get DOUBLE your Proficiency Bonus on To Hit Rolls.
- You may take either your DEX MOD OR your STR MOD to all Damage Rolls.

You can already use dex or str for damage with a dagger it is a finesse weapon.

Also double proficiency for attack is crazy op.

[Potato_Priest]

Also double proficiency for attack is crazy op.

Well, it would be if the weapon was almost anything other than a dagger. The real kicker with +to hit abilities is when they enhance your chance of landing a -5/+10 attack, which by my understanding of the rules is impossible with a dagger. Adding double your proficiency bonus to an attack made with a dagger is certainly still extremely good, but still pretty on-par with stuff like polearm master.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can already use dex or str for damage with a dagger it is a finesse weapon.

Also double proficiency for attack is crazy op. Add half proficiency bonus then. Tops out at +3. Also make it so that there is only one range, no disadvantage on throws greater than 20' and less than 60'.
Finesse, light, thrown (range 20/60)\

Similar to SS feat, but I don't agree with the -5 + 10.

[olskool]

You can already use dex or str for damage with a dagger it is a finesse weapon.

Also, double proficiency for attack is crazy op.

The Damage listed would be stacked. The Double Proficiency Bonus to attack is OP BUT several FEATS and Class Abilities give Double Proficiency to everything from Skill Use to certain Spell-Like Abilities so it is in line with 5e. I'd say this is no more OP than Polearm Master or any other FEAT that boosts Characteristics in addition to providing bonuses.

I guess an alternate Damage Option would be to increase the Weapon's Damage Die one step (from 1D4 to 1D6).

[Damon_Tor]

Simulating the dagger's ability to penetrate heavy armor:


When making a melee weapon attack with a dagger, you get a +1 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 14-16 AC, a +2 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 17-20 AC, and a +3 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 21 AC or greater.

[JackPhoenix]

Dagger already has a ton of properties: light, finesse, thrown. That makes it one of the best, and certainly the most versatile simple weapon already, despite the low damage. Look at poor sickle or club, with only light property and the same damage, or mace, with 1d6 damage without any property at all. Finesse property especially make it only simple melee weapon usable with sneak attack, and its size make it easier to smuggle it into guarded areas than rapier. It does not need further buffs.


Simulating the dagger's ability to penetrate heavy armor:


When making a melee weapon attack with a dagger, you get a +1 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 14-16 AC, a +2 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 17-20 AC, and a +3 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 21 AC or greater.

Except you can easily have high AC without wearing any armor at all (Mage Armor and Dex 16 will give you AC 16) and dagger doesn't have any ability to penetrate heavy armor. And why is dagger better at damaging solid hunk of iron that is iron golem than, say, maul? It's easier to finish lying, wounded or grappled opponent with a dagger than a longsword, but as far as actual combat against opponent fighting back is concerned, you'll have easier time trying to exploit a gap in the enemy's defense with a longsword than with a dagger with no reach to speak of.

Again, like when rogue uses sneak attack on distracted or disabled opponent. Dagger can be used for that, but if the opponent is able to fight back, you'd be better off with a proper combat weapon.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Simulating the dagger's ability to penetrate heavy armor:


When making a melee weapon attack with a dagger, you get a +1 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 14-16 AC, a +2 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 17-20 AC, and a +3 bonus to the attack roll against a creature with 21 AC or greater.

This is a bit fiddly and requires us to rationalize how a daggers ability to squeeze between (or plunge through)plates of armor makes it equally as effective (or more) in sliding through the multiple inch thick hide of an ancient dragon.

Probably better to handle the idea in a different way:
You gain a +2(?) to attack rolls made with daggers when making a melee attack against a target wearing metal armor.

Like mentioned above as well, daggers seem to be better for attacking an opponent who is already at a disadvantaged state. It seems more thematic to me to try and tailor the bonuses towards having advantage on the strike, since you really would need it to outduel a skilled longsword user using only a dagger.

[JNAProductions]

This belongs in the homebrew forum.

[mer.c]

A few thoughts:

I feel like the armor-contingent bonuses are mechanically fiddly and predicated mostly on a simulationist impulse that, IMO, doesn't really even hold up.
AC-dependent bonuses are a pain for the DM, who either has to adjust monster armor vs. your attacks, math out your hit bonus each attack, or just tell you their AC.
Even 1.5x proficiency to hit is kind of absurd on top of multiple other bonuses. +1 is fine if combined with a few other decent bonuses.
Things like bleeding damage and penalty-until-healed seem overly fiddly to me for no really good reason I'm seeing. Even with the chance of being nullified by healing (which IMO introduces an unhealthy delta in the floor and ceiling of the feature), throwing out disadvantage like that can be insane. Especially when combined with auto-crits like Hold X and Assassin. It would IMO at least need a save, but I'd say just skip the whole thing.

[Kenny Snoggins]

How about, daggers can be drawn and poisoned with the same free action, and since they can be thrown much faster than any other ranged weapons can be fired, you can throw 2 daggers for 1 attack action at any target at short range or less.

[Trickery]

How about, daggers can be drawn and poisoned with the same free action, and since they can be thrown much faster than any other ranged weapons can be fired, you can throw 2 daggers for 1 attack action at any target at short range or less.

I like this idea, but I would change it to: when you take the attack action to attack with a dagger, you can apply poison to the dagger one time before you attack. You must have a free hand to do so.

[Reynaert]

How about focusing on the reason daggers were made (i.e. to stick through small holes in armour of a downed armoured opponens), but still keeping it armour-agnostic:

- If you grapple an opponent, you may use your bonus action to attack them with a dagger
- Attacks with a dagger on a grappled opponent gain advantage (and/or extra damage?)

[Mjolnirbear]

I made an 'Up Your Sleeve' ability in mine. You can attack as a bonus action even if you have not taken the attack action.

I think it's cool to dodge three attacks (or cast a spell, or hold the drawbridge crank, or whatever) and launch a dagger at the guy about to shank your friend.

[djreynolds]

I like the idea of a feat that boosts the common dagger. I want to make a full feat, not a half feat.

I've been drawing inspiration from the 4e's Daggermaster.

I was thinking about a proper balance of 3 points.

1. Gain +1 to all attacks made using a dagger.

2. You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18–20.

3. ???


Originally for #3 I was thinking about "Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls made with a dagger", but I think it's silly to be able to be any kind of accurate with a dagger from 60ft, and that poaches a feature from Sharpshooter anyway.

I thought about #3 being an extra +1 AC as long as you're wielding a dagger in your offhand

I thought about replacing #2 with "On your turn, when you score a melee critical hit with a dagger, you can immediately make one melee weapon attack against the same creature. "

What would be a good 3rd feature?

I like the idea, but why?

Why would I choose this?

Why not dual short swords? Okay yoiu cannot throw them.

Why not hand axes or light hammers? They're only good for strength builds

They are stealthy.

1. You throw them. You can throw 2 daggers or darts at one target with one attack. If you have the extra attack, you throw 2 more daggers or darts. You can tweak this and make it your first attack on your turn.

2. You can draw or stow two daggers at the same time. (Might make dual wielder "attractive ")

3. When wielding a light weapon you can still perform the somatic components of a spell, even if you have a shield or weapon in the other hand.

4. When wielding two weapons, and a light weapon in your off hand, you may feint with your main attack to give advantage on your off hand attack.

[CTurbo]

I like the idea of a Daggermaster feat to make the common dagger more popular and because all the best offensive feats are either ranged or Str based. This would be a feat aimed at Rogues, Monks, Swords/Valor Bards, and Rangers.

I agree that this feat should probably have the ability to draw and stow 2 daggers when you could normally only draw and stow one. I like some kind of concealment bonus for having a dagger. I also like the idea of being able to attack with a Dagger as bonus action even if you didn't take the attack action. I'm trying to think about who this would benefit the most and who could abuse it.

Is this too powerful a feature for a feat?

Once on each of your turns when you miss with a dagger attack, you can make another dagger attack as part of the same action. (stolen directly from Gloom Stalker level 11 feature)

[djreynolds]

IMO, you need 3 to 4 perks.

I'm partial to someone throwing to daggers or darts with one hand, looks cool.

You need one perk that isn't only about a dagger, like crossbow expert. And it could lend itself to other builds and concepts. Something involving light ranged melee weapons so hand axes and light hammers have something.

You need something that shows how sneaky a dagger can be in melee. Your eye is focused on the other weapon and you never see the dagger striking.

It's definitely a concept needed for the game.

[Citan]

I like the idea of a feat that boosts the common dagger. I want to make a full feat, not a half feat.

I've been drawing inspiration from the 4e's Daggermaster.

I was thinking about a proper balance of 3 points.

1. Gain +1 to all attacks made using a dagger.

2. You can score critical hits with daggers on a roll of 18–20.

3. ???


Originally for #3 I was thinking about "Attacking at long range doesn't impose disadvantage on your ranged weapon attack rolls made with a dagger", but I think it's silly to be able to be any kind of accurate with a dagger from 60ft, and that poaches a feature from Sharpshooter anyway.

I thought about #3 being an extra +1 AC as long as you're wielding a dagger in your offhand

I thought about replacing #2 with "On your turn, when you score a melee critical hit with a dagger, you can immediately make one melee weapon attack against the same creature. "

What would be a good 3rd feature?
Hi!

I'm a bit afraid the improved crit is as is too much and eating at class features.
I'd rather make it as "use a bonus action to feint and strike with even deadlier precision: designate a target within 5 feet of you that you can see; the next time you make a melee weapon attack against that creature in that round, choose one of the following benefits which applies as long as you are still perceiving the target and unrestrained:
- It is made at advantage (ignoring all sources of disadvantage that may normally apply).
- It will be considered a critical hit on a 18-20 roll.
Note, first writing was "advantage source + expanded crit" together, but even then with bonus action I think it would be too powerful on mundane fights. We have to think on all the multiclass/feat stack potential, notably for everyone getting early nova damage like Paladins and Hexblades.
The other interest of the current writing is that it's still a powerful boon for everyone but especially Rogue when you would normally be imposed disadvantage or denied advantage, which becomes common at higher level.


Besides that, I'd make it so you can use it as a thrown weapon unlimited and increase the stealth factor.
Like so...

"You are an expert at waiving and storing daggers in an inocuous yet fluid way. As long as you aren't overloaded and wearing clothes, you can keep as many daggers as you want on you without them being perceivable: any Perception check made to determine whether you're armed with such weapons is made at disadvantage.
Additionally, whenever you try and make a ranged weapon attack using a dagger, you can draw one of all those you are carrying as part of the attack, no interaction required.
EDIT: after reading the last part of your post, thought it made no sense to made drawing easier only for thrown attacks so I'll change to this.
"Additionally, on your turn, you can draw or store daggers without using up item interaction a number of times equal to your Dexterity modifier".
Honestly it may be overkill to set such a limit, since I don't have in mind right now any game-breaking way to use unlimited draws, but it seems a very light constraint considering the classes the most susceptible to use such weapon at feat, and it's imo very fitting thematically too. The only case where this could restrain a player is the corner case of a Fighter at level 20 using Action Surge to try and make 9 thrown attacks (4+4+1)... I can live with that myself. ^^

[MadBear]

What if you made it an interesting ability, akin to shield master? Since daggers were meant to hit the gaps in armor:

"When wielding a dagger, you can spend a bonus action to ignore up to your proficiency modifier in AC".

For someone like a rogue, that's going to really help get their sneak attack in, but it's coming at the cost of their bonus action which they have all sorts of uses for.

[Citan]

What if you made it an interesting ability, akin to shield master? Since daggers were meant to hit the gaps in armor:

"When wielding a dagger, you can spend a bonus action to ignore up to your proficiency modifier in AC".

For someone like a rogue, that's going to really help get their sneak attack in, but it's coming at the cost of their bonus action which they have all sorts of uses for.
Proficiency mod bonus may be a bit much, or maybe not (my brain is useless to process that kind of projections tonight XD), but it's a great idea!

I'll +10 this one (it just needs a limit of some kind, the most sensible would probably be "for the rest of your turn", with the most powerful being "until the start of your next turn"). :)


IMO Avoid defensive abilities. With daggers you don't realistically have the ability to parry like you might with a longer weapon like a sword.

I'll half-disagree. :)
It's certainly more difficult but how good is your chance to parry depend on a lot of things: your respective positions (notably being in the dead zone of your opponent when facing a longer weapon) and the way he's attacking.
When saying "parry" our instinctive thought is "stop the attack", which would certainly be hard (especially also considering usually dagger people are not the most bulky ^^), but deflect is certainly in the line of possibilities.

Likewise for arrows, it's usually too hard to deflect or avoid them, but in some situations it could be done (minimum requirement being of course knowing precisely enough the angle where arrow is coming from), and the dagger is actually one of the best weapons for deflection since it's light enough to allow your arm move near natural speed while providing that bit of solid material that can take the hit from the metal without being destroyed like flesh.
It's just too complex to translate in a game mechanic that would both be simple enough to manage and "realistic" (as void as that word may be here ^^).

[MadBear]

Proficiency mod bonus may be a bit much, or maybe not (my brain is useless to process that kind of projections tonight XD), but it's a great idea!

I'll +10 this one (it just needs a limit of some kind, the most sensible would probably be "for the rest of your turn", with the most powerful being "until the start of your next turn"). :)



You're right about the limit. Since it's really meant to represent a precise strike, I'd be incline to make it work on "the next attack you make". In other words, taking away 2-6 AC is kinda big, but it only works with a single attack.

[Gydian]

Daggermaster FEAT:

-Drawing a dagger is a free action.
- You get DOUBLE your Proficiency Bonus on To Hit Rolls.
- You may take either your DEX MOD OR your STR MOD to all Damage Rolls.

I like this one best so far.

One thing I've always wanted to do since I started to play D&D, Im talking 20+ years, was a dagger throwing character.

How about as part of your attack action you can make an extra attack as long as all attacks are with daggers. +1 number of attacks in an attack action.