Supermount: How does it work when not a horse?

[Master O'Laughs]

Looking at the Paladin/Beastmaster/Halfling Outrider combo to get dual progression on your mount with Devoted Tracker. How does it work for lets say a Deinonychus (with DM approval of course!).

Does the Paladin Special mount bonuses directly apply, where the animal companion bonuses follow the druid calculation (level - 6) to determine the bonuses?

Thanks for the rules advice in advance!

Last attempt at getting an answer but major questions I still have are these:

1) for a Flying mount I know the formula is CR+4 = Paladin level the mount could be obtained, does the animal companion CR just stack on top, or does it have to be adjusted for CR as well?

1b) How does 1 calculate the adjusted AC level if it does not just stack on top?

1c) If they both have adjustments to the level, am I correct in thinking using as low a CR animal as possible is best to get the most bonuses?

2a) What wands would be desired (I assume Rhino's Rush and Heal Mount)?

2b) Since Rhino's Rush uses a swift action to cast, but activating a wand costs a standard action, what is the benefit besides more uses per day? It seems like it messes up action economy and wastes a turn doing nothing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

There's a section in the DMG for getting more powerful than normal special mounts at an adjusted effective paladin level on pages 204-205.

[Master O'Laughs]

Is it better to lose some HD progression on your supermount to make it half-celestial rather than take the planar paladin substitution level to make it full celestial?

I find it curious being half-celestial gives it the ability to cast spells and fly where being full celestial does not.

I am thinking about a halfling paladin riding a half-celestial fleshraker as opposed to a celestial one.

[OgresAreCute]

Is it better to lose some HD progression on your supermount to make it half-celestial rather than take the planar paladin substitution level to make it full celestial?

I find it curious being half-celestial gives it the ability to cast spells and fly where being full celestial does not.

I am thinking about a halfling paladin riding a half-celestial fleshraker as opposed to a celestial one.

Well, if you look at the evil themed counterparts you have Half-Fiend and Fiendish. I guess they just called it Celestial because Celestial-ish doesn't sound very good, and because Celestial is an adjective already, unlike Fiend.

[Master O'Laughs]

Well, if you look at the evil themed counterparts you have Half-Fiend and Fiendish. I guess they just called it Celestial because Celestial-ish doesn't sound very good, and because Celestial is an adjective already, unlike Fiend.

The half-celestial/fiendish templates give the creature flying and spell casting (if INT or WIS is high enough)

The Celestial/Fiendish templates do not. The curious thing to me is I would thing a "full-fledged" fiend or celestial would be more powerful.

But back to the base question, for a Halfling Paladin looking to ride a supermount, would a Celestial Fleshraker (from Paladin 6 - Planar substitution level) be better or worse than a Half-Celestial Fleshraker (loss of bonus HD progression due to having a fly speed and as HD increases, so does its challenge rating)

Put a different way:
Celestial Fleshraker is good to go at Paladin Level 6

Half-Celestial Fleshraker would count as CR 5 at 11 HD or higher and has the Paladin-4 due to flying

Also, what are other good templates to consider for a Supermount? (thinking of warbeast and dungeonbred in particular)

[OgresAreCute]

The half-celestial/fiendish templates give the creature flying and spell casting (if INT or WIS is high enough)

The Celestial/Fiendish templates do not. The curious thing to me is I would thing a "full-fledged" fiend or celestial would be more powerful.

That's what I'm saying. The template is called Fiendish (as in, has a few fiend-like qualities), not Fiend (full-fledged evil outsider). Same thing with the Celestial template, but the name gets weird because you can't call it "celestialish" since "celestial" is already an adjective.

[Master O'Laughs]

That's what I'm saying. The template is called Fiendish (as in, has a few fiend-like qualities), not Fiend (full-fledged evil outsider). Same thing with the Celestial template, but the name gets weird because you can't call it "celestialish" since "celestial" is already an adjective.

Okay, now I understand what you were saying (sorry about that.. lol). Do you have any thoughts about what would be better from a Supermount perspective?

[DarkSoul]

Think of the celestial and fiendish templates as the monster versions of aasimar and tieflings: an intermediate step between mortal beings and the half-outsiders.

That being said, see how much your effective paladin level drops if you have the dinosaur. If what you gain from the template is better than what you lose in effective level, take the template.

[liquidformat]

That's what I'm saying. The template is called Fiendish (as in, has a few fiend-like qualities), not Fiend (full-fledged evil outsider). Same thing with the Celestial template, but the name gets weird because you can't call it "celestialish" since "celestial" is already an adjective.

I always took it as having a strong celestial/fiendish bloodline (not to be confused with mechanical bloodlines). granted that opens the door to how all these animals are getting these bloodlines. I mean I get it from the demon and devil point of view but those are some kinking angels out there, or maybe blame it on the Guardinals?

Anyways, warbeast is always a great choice, so is magebred if your dm is ok with letting you take it. Technically neither template adjusts the effective level of you fleshraker.

I believe even with the level adjustment your half-celestial fleshraker will still hit 20hd by the time you hit level 20 making half-celestial a good choice. Plus the fact that it can casts some buffs and will be intelligent enough to do so is quite nice.

[OgresAreCute]

Okay, now I understand what you were saying (sorry about that.. lol). Do you have any thoughts about what would be better from a Supermount perspective?

Fly speed is pretty valuable, even if the numbers happened to be a little worse. Having some heals/utility spells on your mount is pretty neat too. I'd go for the Half-Celestial for sure.

I think for Paladins you generally want to use the "swap out for CR = Paladin -3/4" thing since a higher CR creature gets both numbers and more special abilities while giving progression to the default warhorse just gives +numbers.

[hamishspence]

Think of the celestial and fiendish templates as the monster versions of aasimar and tieflings: an intermediate step between mortal beings and the half-outsiders.


I always took it as having a strong celestial/fiendish bloodline (not to be confused with mechanical bloodlines). granted that opens the door to how all these animals are getting these bloodlines.



I think it's more a case of "mortal beings that reside on the Outer Planes gain the templates over time - possibly taking generations to do so" hence the templates including the Extraplanar subtype.

A "Celestial cat" is the distant descendant of mortal cats that were brought to Celestia and made their homes there - but at no point did an Outsider hybridise with those cats.

[PrismCat21]

Does the Paladin Special mount bonuses directly apply, where the animal companion bonuses follow the druid calculation (level - 6) to determine the bonuses?

You get your special mount through Paladin. The alternate animal companion adjustment means nothing because you don't get it through Ranger/Druid.
Add your full Effective Druid Level to your Special Mount to determine it's bonus HD and abilities from Animal Companion.


Is it better to lose some HD progression on your supermount to make it half-celestial rather than take the planar paladin substitution level to make it full celestial?

I find it curious being half-celestial gives it the ability to cast spells and fly where being full celestial does not.

Half-Celestial is loads better than Celestial.
Half-Celestial basically means a parent was a full Good Outsider and you got many of their powers/abilities through close genetics. Celestial typically implies that the Good Outsider you are descended from was many generations ago and you just have a sprinkling of power compared to them.

Since it will cost you almost as much to apply Celestial rather than Half-Celestial, just go with Half-Celestial.


The half-celestial/fiendish templates give the creature flying and spell casting (if INT or WIS is high enough)
~snip~
But back to the base question, for a Halfling Paladin looking to ride a supermount, would a Celestial Fleshraker (from Paladin 6 - Planar substitution level) be better or worse than a Half-Celestial Fleshraker (loss of bonus HD progression due to having a fly speed and as HD increases, so does its challenge rating)

Put a different way:
Celestial Fleshraker is good to go at Paladin Level 6

Half-Celestial Fleshraker would count as CR 5 at 11 HD or higher and has the Paladin-4 due to flying

Also, what are other good templates to consider for a Supermount? (thinking of warbeast and dungeonbred in particular)

You've mentioned both Deinonychus and Fleshraker. They are two completely different creatures. The Deinonychus is stronger and has more health, the Fleshraker is more agile and has more attacks and special abilities.

Half-Celestial gives you specific Spell-Like Abilities, not spellcasting. It makes a big difference.

Typically, templates that grant abilities based on HD only care about 'Racial HD'. The extra HD you get from Paladin levels and Effective Druid Levels are 'Bonus HD'. Since the normal Fleshraker has 4HD, it only gets the SLA's of HD 1-2 and 3-4. Tht also means that it's CR is only increased by 1.

If your DM decides to rule that the bonus HD allows it more SLA's, Damage Reduction, and Spell Resistance, you'll need to adjust it's CR whenever it reaches the appropriate HD. Same with Celestial. I would not recommend it. Too easy to mess up the numbers and make a mistake.
If you start out as a higher level paladin, you can always just advance the Fleshraker's racial HD before applying any templates, and start off with a higher CR creature. That might make i easier on you.

Celestial Fleshraker would be CR 3 and a suitable mount for a Paladin for at least 6th level.
Half-Celestial Fleshraker would also be CR 3 and a suitable mount for a Paladin for at least 7th level. (Pick this one)

I wouldn't apply any other templates to it. And the two others you've suggested can't be applied.
Warbeast requires an Animal or Vermin but the Fleshraker's Type is now changed. Celestial makes it a Magical Beast and Half-Celestial makes it an Outsider.
Dungeonbred requires a size of at least Large and Fleshrakers are Medium. It could potentially to applied at a Celestial Fleshraker if it was Large(through Racial HD advancement), but I still wouldn't do it. It's too much, and bad form(imo).


Okay, now I understand what you were saying (sorry about that.. lol). Do you have any thoughts about what would be better from a Supermount perspective?

Half-Celestial.

[OgresAreCute]

I think it's more a case of "mortal beings that reside on the Outer Planes gain the templates over time - possibly taking generations to do so" hence the templates including the Extraplanar subtype.

A "Celestial cat" is the distant descendant of mortal cats that were brought to Celestia and made their homes there - but at no point did an Outsider hybridise with those cats.

I think you're right. The SRD/MM1 say this in the fluff blurb:
https://i.gyazo.com/eec7de642ef0660e64164c1d810b0e3c.png

The line "They can be mistaken for half-celestials, more powerful creatures that are created when a celestial mates with a non-celestial creature." seems to imply that unlike half-celestials, Celestial creatures are NOT hybrids.

[Master O'Laughs]

You get your special mount through Paladin. The alternate animal companion adjustment means nothing because you don't get it through Ranger/Druid.
Add your full Effective Druid Level to your Special Mount to determine it's bonus HD and abilities from Animal Companion.



Half-Celestial is loads better than Celestial.
Half-Celestial basically means a parent was a full Good Outsider and you got many of their powers/abilities through close genetics. Celestial typically implies that the Good Outsider you are descended from was many generations ago and you just have a sprinkling of power compared to them.

Since it will cost you almost as much to apply Celestial rather than Half-Celestial, just go with Half-Celestial.



You've mentioned both Deinonychus and Fleshraker. They are two completely different creatures. The Deinonychus is stronger and has more health, the Fleshraker is more agile and has more attacks and special abilities.

Half-Celestial gives you specific Spell-Like Abilities, not spellcasting. It makes a big difference.

Typically, templates that grant abilities based on HD only care about 'Racial HD'. The extra HD you get from Paladin levels and Effective Druid Levels are 'Bonus HD'. Since the normal Fleshraker has 4HD, it only gets the SLA's of HD 1-2 and 3-4. Tht also means that it's CR is only increased by 1.

If your DM decides to rule that the bonus HD allows it more SLA's, Damage Reduction, and Spell Resistance, you'll need to adjust it's CR whenever it reaches the appropriate HD. Same with Celestial. I would not recommend it. Too easy to mess up the numbers and make a mistake.
If you start out as a higher level paladin, you can always just advance the Fleshraker's racial HD before applying any templates, and start off with a higher CR creature. That might make i easier on you.

Celestial Fleshraker would be CR 3 and a suitable mount for a Paladin for at least 6th level.
Half-Celestial Fleshraker would also be CR 3 and a suitable mount for a Paladin for at least 7th level. (Pick this one)

I wouldn't apply any other templates to it. And the two others you've suggested can't be applied.
Warbeast requires an Animal or Vermin but the Fleshraker's Type is now changed. Celestial makes it a Magical Beast and Half-Celestial makes it an Outsider.
Dungeonbred requires a size of at least Large and Fleshrakers are Medium. It could potentially to applied at a Celestial Fleshraker if it was Large(through Racial HD advancement), but I still wouldn't do it. It's too much, and bad form(imo).



Half-Celestial.

Thank you! This was very helpful.

Asking for other templates was more of a back-up in case my DM disallowed half-celestial.

Am I correct in reading the spell resistance from 15 to 20 HD to be calculated simply as Paladin level+5 (10 to 11 max) and how would this stack with spell resistance gained from Half-celestial SR (stacks or no?)

[liquidformat]

Typically, templates that grant abilities based on HD only care about 'Racial HD'. The extra HD you get from Paladin levels and Effective Druid Levels are 'Bonus HD'. Since the normal Fleshraker has 4HD, it only gets the SLA's of HD 1-2 and 3-4. Tht also means that it's CR is only increased by 1.


Please sight where half-celestial says anything is based on 'racial Hit Dice' I am not seeing any support for this claim anywhere in the SRD.

[hamishspence]

The sample Half Celestial Human 9th level Paladin in the PHB, has spell-like abilities as appropriate for a 9HD Half-Celestial - so it would appear that class hit dice, count, for the purposes of determining things like how many spell-like abilities you get.

I think the same has been the case for any rulebook template with an example creature that has class hit dice, as I recall.

[Master O'Laughs]

So the Half Celestial Fleshraker would have 11 levels of HD from Paladin Mount Progression (Paladin 5, Halfling Outrider 10, Wild Plains Outrider 3, -7 Half-celestial and flying) correct?

Would all 18 (5 from Beast Master 2, Halfling Outrider 10, Natural Bond 3) of the animal companion HD apply? Or would there be a similar deduction due to template?

[tyckspoon]

The sample Half Celestial Human 9th level Paladin in the PHB, has spell-like abilities as appropriate for a 9HD Half-Celestial - so it would appear that class hit dice, count, for the purposes of determining things like how many spell-like abilities you get.

I think the same has been the case for any rulebook template with an example creature that has class hit dice, as I recall.

I want to say Primal is weird about the difference (but then Savage Species is weird in general), and there probably are some monster special abilities that specify racial so that you don't get, for example, a monster having a stronger breath weapon because it started taking levels in Fighter. But in most cases an HD is an HD is an HD, yes. It's why Inspire Greatness can cause a number of rather odd edge cases in the rules.

[OgresAreCute]

I want to say Primal is weird about the difference (but then Savage Species is weird in general), and there probably are some monster special abilities that specify racial so that you don't get, for example, a monster having a stronger breath weapon because it started taking levels in Fighter. But in most cases an HD is an HD is an HD, yes. It's why Inspire Greatness can cause a number of rather odd edge cases in the rules.

There are some templates that specify racial HD other than Feral from Savage Species, like Half-Fiends only gives more skill points to racial HD and not to, say, Fighter levels. Half-Dragon upgrades racial HD too.

[Master O'Laughs]

So at ECL 11 (Pal 5/BM 1/WPO 1/ HO 3), how many bonus HD am I adding from Paladin and Animal Companion?

Should WPO be applied to Paladin or Animal companion?

My guess at the calculation is CR as 5 (base 2+3 for 11 HD or more), add 4 for flying so Special mount would require 9 levels so tier 1 from paladin.

I am lost for whether I just straight add the animal companion progression or determine the adjusted starting level.

[hamishspence]

There are some templates that specify racial HD other than Feral from Savage Species, like Half-Fiends only gives more skill points to racial HD and not to, say, Fighter levels. Half-Dragon upgrades racial HD too.

Skill points are specifically tied to racial hit dice, because those template change the creature's hit dice from whatever it was before, to Dragon hit dice (or Outsider hit dice).

But things like Damage Reduction, or Spell-like abilities, tend to be tied to total hit dice rather than racial hit dice.

[liquidformat]

There are some templates that specify racial HD other than Feral from Savage Species, like Half-Fiends only gives more skill points to racial HD and not to, say, Fighter levels. Half-Dragon upgrades racial HD too.

Not seeing racial hit dice called out in Feral Creature template either...

[hamishspence]

Not seeing racial hit dice called out in Feral Creature template either...

Under Special Attacks :
"It gains the special attacks indicated in the row corresponding to its monster hit dice, plus all those in previous rows"

The implication is that a 1HD character with the Feral template, who then goes on to take a bunch of PC class levels, does not "unlock" Pounce, Rake, and Rend as they level up.

Same might apply to the Darkvision and Fast Healing - with them being calculated at the moment the template is taken, and not scaled up as PC levels are taken.

However, since it says just "hit dice" not "monster hit dice" - they might scale.

[Master O'Laughs]

So at ECL 11 (Pal 5/BM 1/WPO 1/ HO 3), how many bonus HD am I adding from Paladin and Animal Companion?

Should WPO be applied to Paladin or Animal companion?

My guess at the calculation is CR as 5 (base 2+3 for 11 HD or more), add 4 for flying so Special mount would require 9 levels so tier 1 from paladin.

I am lost for whether I just straight add the animal companion progression or determine the adjusted starting level.

So in addition to the question above, what ACFs are worth considering? Is it worth giving up spell casting for the extra feat from Holy Warrior? The most amount of lvl 1 spell slots is likely to be 2 after bonus spells. The bigger concern would be the inability to use wands though.

What wands would be desired? can you use lvl 3 spell wands even if you only have access to level 1?

[Master O'Laughs]

Last attempt at getting an answer but major questions I still have are these:

1) for a Flying mount I know the formula is CR+4 = Paladin level the mount could be obtained, does the animal companion CR just stack on top, or does it have to be adjusted for CR as well?

1b) How does 1 calculate the adjusted AC level if it does not just stack on top?

1c) If they both have adjustments to the level, am I correct in thinking using as low a CR animal as possible is best to get the most bonuses?

2a) What wands would be desired (I assume Rhino's Rush and Heal Mount)?

2b) Since Rhino's Rush uses a swift action to cast, but activating a wand costs a standard action, what is the benefit besides more uses per day? It seems like it messes up action economy and wastes a turn doing nothing.

[tyckspoon]

1) for a Flying mount I know the formula is CR+4 = Paladin level the mount could be obtained, does the animal companion CR just stack on top, or does it have to be adjusted for CR as well?

1b) How does 1 calculate the adjusted AC level if it does not just stack on top?

1c) If they both have adjustments to the level, am I correct in thinking using as low a CR animal as possible is best to get the most bonuses?

2a) What wands would be desired (I assume Rhino's Rush and Heal Mount)?

2b) Since Rhino's Rush uses a swift action to cast, but activating a wand costs a standard action, what is the benefit besides more uses per day? It seems like it messes up action economy and wastes a turn doing nothing.

Animal Companions do not interact with CR. There is a defined list of possible companions, and the effective druid level required for them/the penalty to effective level they take in regards to extra advancement bonuses is stated for each companion. If you want your mount to be something that is not already defined as an Animal Companion, you will have to work with your DM to figure out what effective druid level it should be assigned. From the Special Mount perspective, the CR should only be worried about for the base creature - any adjustments to it for Mount or Animal Companion advancement should be ignored (otherwise you'd get a 404: Rules Not Found problem, where you select a creature by CR, then apply bonus HD, which increases its CR, which means you have to recalculate the advancement because it changes how many levels of advancement you can apply, which might reduce its CR again because now it has fewer HD..)

Rules Compendium just makes Wand activation equal to the usual action for casting the spell. Still subject to the rules for manipulating items, but that's what Wand Chambers and Wand Bracers are for.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Last attempt at getting an answer but major questions I still have are these:

Let's see



1) for a Flying mount I know the formula is CR+4 = Paladin level the mount could be obtained, does the animal companion CR just stack on top, or does it have to be adjusted for CR as well?

I would say no. If the animal companion benefits were taken into account before setting the special mount abilities, you'd never get anything but the most basic abilities.



1b) How does 1 calculate the adjusted AC level if it does not just stack on top?

Given my answer to 1A, this question is invalid.



1c) If they both have adjustments to the level, am I correct in thinking using as low a CR animal as possible is best to get the most bonuses?

To get the most bonuses, yes. To get the most benefit, not necessarily. Generally, higher CR beasties have useful abilities beyond simply bigger numbers. You should really take that into account.



2a) What wands would be desired (I assume Rhino's Rush and Heal Mount)?

Anything you would normally use as a paladin is still good thanks to share spells.



2b) Since Rhino's Rush uses a swift action to cast, but activating a wand costs a standard action, what is the benefit besides more uses per day? It seems like it messes up action economy and wastes a turn doing nothing.

IIRC, there was a clause in MIC that changed the casting time of wands to match the spell stored in them. Therefore, a wand of rhino's rush would be activated with a swift action.

[Master O'Laughs]

Animal Companions do not interact with CR. There is a defined list of possible companions, and the effective druid level required for them/the penalty to effective level they take in regards to extra advancement bonuses is stated for each companion. If you want your mount to be something that is not already defined as an Animal Companion, you will have to work with your DM to figure out what effective druid level it should be assigned.

Devoted Tracker feat lets you make your Special Mount from Paladin your animal companion. It mentions the benefits a Paladin 5/Ranger 6 would receive the full bonuses of both. The standard Paladin mount is a Heavy warhorse (CR 2), while the Druid AC only lists a normal horse, heavy or light, (CR 1) as a base companion.


From the Special Mount perspective, the CR should only be worried about for the base creature - any adjustments to it for Mount or Animal Companion advancement should be ignored (otherwise you'd get a 404: Rules Not Found problem, where you select a creature by CR, then apply bonus HD, which increases its CR, which means you have to recalculate the advancement because it changes how many levels of advancement you can apply, which might reduce its CR again because now it has fewer HD..)

So the scaling CR from HD from the half-celestial template (I recognize this as needing DM approval) is ignored? Is this because it is only considering the base HD of the creature for the special features (Damage Resistance, Spell Resistance)?


Rules Compendium just makes Wand activation equal to the usual action for casting the spell. Still subject to the rules for manipulating items, but that's what Wand Chambers and Wand Bracers are for.

Okay great! Follow up, any outstanding spells from Paladin worth having in wand form to make Wand Bracers a worth while consideration?
I would definitely want Rhino's Rush, but anything else for mid fight casting.

[Master O'Laughs]

Let's see

I would say no. If the animal companion benefits were taken into account before setting the special mount abilities, you'd never get anything but the most basic abilities.

Given my answer to 1A, this question is invalid.

To get the most bonuses, yes. To get the most benefit, not necessarily. Generally, higher CR beasties have useful abilities beyond simply bigger numbers. You should really take that into account.

Anything you would normally use as a paladin is still good thanks to share spells.

IIRC, there was a clause in MIC that changed the casting time of wands to match the spell stored in them. Therefore, a wand of rhino's rush would be activated with a swift action.

Thank you!

[liquidformat]

1) I am a bit confused as to what you are asking here, one issue with going half celestial is that it is unclear how that should be handled from an animal companion point of view since there really isn't a way to get half celestial animal companions. Even if you just had a celestial mount it is not entirely clear that you should take a -3 to animal companion level though with the exalted companion as precedence this seems fair.
I would suggest talking to your dm since there isn't a rule that says if your mount is a half-celestial fleshraker it should have a -6 adjustment to effective animal companion level. Granted this should be perfectly legal by raw since you are designating your animal companion to be your mount per devoted tracker, if it was the other way around you might have some issues.
- Either way Natural Bond seems like a good feat choice for your character.
- Also talk to your dm about letting this half-celestial fleshraker take armor proficiency for free, between all the increases to intelligence, bonus training, and the fact that outsiders traditionally are
you might just be able to get that which would be very nice.

1b) Like I said above between being a fleshraker and half-celestial you are probably looking at a animal companion level adjustment of -6; however, talk to your dm since there is no RAW ruling here. everything you get from special mount and animal companion explicitly stack with each other per devoted tracker.

1c) There is a reason the riding dog is considered the best mount/animal companion by many people (and heavy war horse is also up there). It has better base stats than a wolf, is innately trained for 'combat riding' per handle animal, and you don't need to jump through hoops to get armor prof. Any choice in your mount should be compared to the riding dog to determine if it is worth it.

2a/b) I am not as great with casting and can't remember the highlight paladin spells off the top of my head but check out some of the paladin handbooks out there I know some go over spells and commonly those will be the same ones that are good to have as wands. Like you pointed out Rhino's Rush isn't a good choice. Heal Mount is a good choice, golden barding might be though cost benefits of it are questionable by the time it is in a wand, endure elements could be a useful choice. Also remember your half-celestial fleshraker has spell-likes that free up your potential choices like no point in a protection from evil wand, though maybe a protection from chaos to stack with that against CE enemies.

In general any acf that removes casting is a bad trade according to the optimization boards; however, if you aren't going to be utilizing those wands and your one or two spell slots then getting another feat isn't a bad trade.

Another interesting thing to look at is taking the leadership feat and designating your special mount/animal companion as your cohort depending on your dm's interpretation of these rules your mount can get stupid fast if they are allowed to take class levels...

[Master O'Laughs]

1) I am a bit confused as to what you are asking here, one issue with going half celestial is that it is unclear how that should be handled from an animal companion point of view since there really isn't a way to get half celestial animal companions. Even if you just had a celestial mount it is not entirely clear that you should take a -3 to animal companion level though with the exalted companion as precedence this seems fair.
I would suggest talking to your dm since there isn't a rule that says if your mount is a half-celestial fleshraker it should have a -6 adjustment to effective animal companion level. Granted this should be perfectly legal by raw since you are designating your animal companion to be your mount per devoted tracker, if it was the other way around you might have some issues.
- Either way Natural Bond seems like a good feat choice for your character.
- Also talk to your dm about letting this half-celestial fleshraker take armor proficiency for free, between all the increases to intelligence, bonus training, and the fact that outsiders traditionally are
you might just be able to get that which would be very nice.

1b) Like I said above between being a fleshraker and half-celestial you are probably looking at a animal companion level adjustment of -6; however, talk to your dm since there is no RAW ruling here. everything you get from special mount and animal companion explicitly stack with each other per devoted tracker.

1c) There is a reason the riding dog is considered the best mount/animal companion by many people (and heavy war horse is also up there). It has better base stats than a wolf, is innately trained for 'combat riding' per handle animal, and you don't need to jump through hoops to get armor prof. Any choice in your mount should be compared to the riding dog to determine if it is worth it.

2a/b) I am not as great with casting and can't remember the highlight paladin spells off the top of my head but check out some of the paladin handbooks out there I know some go over spells and commonly those will be the same ones that are good to have as wands. Like you pointed out Rhino's Rush isn't a good choice. Heal Mount is a good choice, golden barding might be though cost benefits of it are questionable by the time it is in a wand, endure elements could be a useful choice. Also remember your half-celestial fleshraker has spell-likes that free up your potential choices like no point in a protection from evil wand, though maybe a protection from chaos to stack with that against CE enemies.

In general any acf that removes casting is a bad trade according to the optimization boards; however, if you aren't going to be utilizing those wands and your one or two spell slots then getting another feat isn't a bad trade.

Another interesting thing to look at is taking the leadership feat and designating your special mount/animal companion as your cohort depending on your dm's interpretation of these rules your mount can get stupid fast if they are allowed to take class levels...

In summation, check with DM, -6 ECL for druid, check with DM, must compare mount to a riding dog for cost benefit (I also realized that unless the mount has pounce, multiple attacks are pointless on charges).

I was definitely thinking of Natural Bond to up AC. Thanks again for the input.\

The whole half-celestial thing was trying to get a decent flying mount for a halfling (any kind of dragon is out) and seeing the Fleshraker as just very fancy.

[Master O'Laughs]

So doing a little light reading, would a Dungeonbred Griffon be a solid choice for a Halfling flying mount?

CR4
Speed would be 30 ft /fly 80 ft (good)

It looks like Animal companion adjustment would be Druid-6 (am I correct on this?)

Dungeonbred mentions adjusting attributes based on size but the only difference between large and medium seems to be -1 Natural Armor (is this correct?)

[liquidformat]

griffons are awesome the one thing to keep in mind is what type of adventure you are going to be part of. If you are typically out doors with lots of space and easy maneuverability flying becomes very powerful and having a large mount is very handy. If you are dungeon crawling with space concerns having a medium sized mount like riding dog, deinonychus, or fleshraker is a really great advantage. Personally I think I would take the half-celestial fleshraker over the dungeonbred griffin if given the choice.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So doing a little light reading, would a Dungeonbred Griffon be a solid choice for a Halfling flying mount?

CR4
Speed would be 30 ft /fly 80 ft (good)

It looks like Animal companion adjustment would be Druid-6 (am I correct on this?)

Dungeonbred mentions adjusting attributes based on size but the only difference between large and medium seems to be -1 Natural Armor (is this correct?)

That is not correct. The reduction in size would be coupled with losses in str and con and a boost to dex along with that AC increase, per the table here; http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

[Master O'Laughs]

griffons are awesome the one thing to keep in mind is what type of adventure you are going to be part of. If you are typically out doors with lots of space and easy maneuverability flying becomes very powerful and having a large mount is very handy. If you are dungeon crawling with space concerns having a medium sized mount like riding dog, deinonychus, or fleshraker is a really great advantage. Personally I think I would take the half-celestial fleshraker over the dungeonbred griffin if given the choice.

I thought the griffon being dungeonbred would reduce it to medium size (originally large)? Did I read it wrong?

I am looking for options in-case DM says no to the half-celestial.


That is not correct. The reduction in size would be coupled with losses in str and con and a boost to dex along with that AC increase, per the table here; http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#sizeIncreases

Ah, I read the chart wrong then. Each size is another iteration of all those bonuses. Good to know.

[liquidformat]

I thought the griffon being dungeonbred would reduce it to medium size (originally large)? Did I read it wrong?

I am looking for options in-case DM says no to the half-celestial.

No you were reading it correctly I had just forgotten what that template does since I was at work and could look. Still I think the half-celestial fleshraker is a better choice all around.

I would actually say the fleshraker is attractive enough that even if I couldn't take half celestial I would still try and go with a warbeast magebred fleshraker and try to work out how to make if fly with something like a winged saddle over the griffon. The base stats and attacks routine of the fleshraker are quite powerful and with the addition of magebred and warbeast it only becomes more so.

[emeraldstreak]

You can get anything that meets the requirements for mount and your CR allowance, including monsters advanced, but not that advanced as to cause CR increase. Within the Core eventually the best choice becomes the Golden Dragon.

[Master O'Laughs]

You can get anything that meets the requirements for mount and your CR allowance, including monsters advanced, but not that advanced as to cause CR increase. Within the Core eventually the best choice becomes the Golden Dragon.

As much as I would like a dragon, DM has said no to them for lore reasons in his world.

[Master O'Laughs]

No you were reading it correctly I had just forgotten what that template does since I was at work and could look. Still I think the half-celestial fleshraker is a better choice all around.

I would actually say the fleshraker is attractive enough that even if I couldn't take half celestial I would still try and go with a warbeast magebred fleshraker and try to work out how to make if fly with something like a winged saddle over the griffon. The base stats and attacks routine of the fleshraker are quite powerful and with the addition of magebred and warbeast it only becomes more so.

I remember reading on the Ashworm dragoon PrC that for paladins they had to be devenomed. Where do the rules talk about this? Can a Paladin of Freedom get around this caveat? Fleshraker is still nice but this was something I was thinking about.

[OgresAreCute]

I remember reading on the Ashworm dragoon PrC that for paladins they had to be devenomed. Where do the rules talk about this? Can a Paladin of Freedom get around this caveat? Fleshraker is still nice but this was something I was thinking about.

Using poison is forbidden in the paladin's code. Other variants may or may not have this restriction as well.

[Master O'Laughs]

A thought I had, if half-celestial is disallowed, Fleshraker is CR2 with 4 HD, war trained makes him CR3 and adds 1 HD. Animals are considered +1 CR for every 3 HD, could I add 2 more HD to the Fleshraker without increasing his CR above 3?

Also, what are good feats to get on supermounts? Is improved natural attack (bite) worth it? What about improved multiattack?

I am guessing I would want to do power attack>improved bullrush>shock trooper right?

Would ability focus be worth it (for poison)?

[Master O'Laughs]

If the fleshraker has the half-celestial template, how does that impact its skills? As a base, it has hide +12 and jump +24 right?

It says it has a racial bonus of +8 to hide (so 4 skill points in it) and a +6 bonus to jump (so 18 skill points in it)

How does it have 22 skill points when it only gets 2+int (-4 modifier so minimum 1) per HD, *4 on 1st HD?

That would be 7 skill points in total.

So if it is half-celestial and now an outsider, it gets 8+int skills per racial HD. How would this affect the creature?

[liquidformat]

Power Attack and leap attack are very good choices, INA is always a decent choice, though I would probably go for other things like your shock trooper idea first. Also keep in mind that with your half-celestial fleshraker's high int its feat choices are really opened up and you should be getting the standard outsider weapons and armor profs so you can do stuff like mouthpick (from LoM) a weapon and wield it in the fleshraker's mouth. Replacing a bite attack with full iteratives of a great sword attack is totally worth it.

As far as skill points go they will need to be recalculated with 8+int and it does get *4 at level 1. Remember you have to subtract out ability mods too, so it has 0 points in hide and 15 jump which is still way too high but hey how often are the numbers correct inside these things...

[Master O'Laughs]

Power Attack and leap attack are very good choices, INA is always a decent choice, though I would probably go for other things like your shock trooper idea first. Also keep in mind that with your half-celestial fleshraker's high int its feat choices are really opened up and you should be getting the standard outsider weapons and armor profs so you can do stuff like mouthpick (from LoM) a weapon and wield it in the fleshraker's mouth. Replacing a bite attack with full iteratives of a great sword attack is totally worth it.

As far as skill points go they will need to be recalculated with 8+int and it does get *4 at level 1. Remember you have to subtract out ability mods too, so it has 0 points in hide and 15 jump which is still way too high but hey how often are the numbers correct inside these things...

Ahhh! thank you! I totally forgot about the ability modifier thing. Would you suggest just subtracting 7 skill points from the new total from being an outsider?

[Kelb_Panthera]

If the fleshraker has the half-celestial template, how does that impact its skills? As a base, it has hide +12 and jump +24 right?

It says it has a racial bonus of +8 to hide (so 4 skill points in it) and a +6 bonus to jump (so 18 skill points in it)

How does it have 22 skill points when it only gets 2+int (-4 modifier so minimum 1) per HD, *4 on 1st HD?

That would be 7 skill points in total.

So if it is half-celestial and now an outsider, it gets 8+int skills per racial HD. How would this affect the creature?

You forgot the +8 for its 50ft land speed and the ability bonuses to both skills. It has no ranks in hide. All 7 of its skill points were spent on jump.

[Master O'Laughs]

You forgot the +8 for its 50ft land speed and the ability bonuses to both skills. It has no ranks in hide. All 7 of its skill points were spent on jump.

Thank you! I also missed the that bonus under the jump skill!

[Master O'Laughs]

Another question, this time related to the rider (actual PC). In combat, what am I looking to do with my halfling? I plan on taking Divine shield at some point to buff both rider and mount AC (Rider shield). Am I best suited using a lance and doing some charges along with the mount or are there better uses of my actions?

[liquidformat]

Another question, this time related to the rider (actual PC). In combat, what am I looking to do with my halfling? I plan on taking Divine shield at some point to buff both rider and mount AC (Rider shield). Am I best suited using a lance and doing some charges along with the mount or are there better uses of my actions?

I personally go with lance and also often the riding saber (can't remember the book it is from off the top of my head but it is forgotten realms.). Although I always have a ranged weapon on me I have never much used them nor taken mounted archery feat. Not sure about other people though.

[Master O'Laughs]

Would a minor/intermediate/major bloodline be worth it?

It seems like it could help push my mounts ECL into very high levels and help offset a more powerful base mount.

[liquidformat]

possibly especially if you are aloud to home brew the bloodline beyond that it really depends on what bloodline.

[Master O'Laughs]

possibly especially if you are aloud to home brew the bloodline beyond that it really depends on what bloodline.

I was thinking Storm Giant or Titan since they offer PA feat and Strength and Con bonuses and fit alignment (from base monster).

Storm Giant also offers a Wisdom bonus (nice to bump my bad save from odd to even number)

Titan has Spell resistance which is rather nice.

1 slight issue I see is DM does not use XP but milestones. What would be a valid work around?

Maybe if/when party reaches lvl 20, I am 18 so I have gained back 1 level? Or should I just let it be 3 levels worth of classes that do not increase BAB, Saves, Hit Dice?

[Master O'Laughs]

Also, if the bloodline supposedly does not increase ECL, how does that affect normal Attribute and feat gains?