Multiclass Spells.

[Nhorianscum]

With the holidays burrying me in free time I've been attempting to really optimize some rather oddball multi's but the dead slot issue keeps rearing its ugly head.

Aside from the greater dragonmark feats what options are availible to allow "early" entry by casting from spellslots that would otherwise be used only for upcasting on multiclassed characters?

Past that what exactly is the accepted RAW on a (insert class) spell?

A few roadbumps so far are...

Cleric domain spells, are they only cleric spells now or do these function as both cleric and wizard/sorc/druid/etc spells?

Can racial spells be used to forcibly open and learn new spells?

And so on etc...

Figured I'd check with the community at large before I start crunching the nitty gritty progression aspects.

[Helldin87]

Do the Ravnica backgrounds allow for a way around? I know each comes with a spell list that is active regardless of class.

[bid]

Cleric domain spells, are they only cleric spells now or do these function as both cleric and wizard/sorc/druid/etc spells?
Anything in the Classes chapter uses the class level. Whether you are a pure cleric 5 or an MC cleric 5 / whatever X, you gain nothing more from the cleric features.

Moreover, it explicitely states "cleric levels" in the Domain Spells section.

[Nhorianscum]

Anything in the Classes chapter uses the class level. Whether you are a pure cleric 5 or an MC cleric 5 / whatever X, you gain nothing more from the cleric features.

Moreover, it explicitely states "cleric levels" in the Domain Spells section.

This is correct as domain spells are a class feature.

Was wondering if (for example) Dimension door from trickery would qualify as a wizard spell AND as a cleric spell. The RAW inclusively moves these to the Cleric list but does not exclude them from their source list.

[Aett_Thorn]

This is correct as domain spells are a class feature.

Was wondering if (for example) Dimension door from trickery would qualify as a wizard spell AND as a cleric spell. The RAW inclusively moves these to the Cleric list but does not exclude them from their source list.

They count as a Cleric spell for that character. Not a Wizard and Cleric spell. If that character was a multiclass Wizard/Cleric, the spell would remain a Cleric spell for them unless they also learned it as a Wizard.

[Chronos]

I'm confused. What are we trying to get early entry to?

[bid]

Was wondering if (for example) Dimension door from trickery would qualify as a wizard spell AND as a cleric spell. The RAW inclusively moves these to the Cleric list but does not exclude them from their source list.
If you are trickery cleric 7, you have access to dimension door (as a cleric spell).
If you are wizard 7, you have access to dimension door (as a wizard spell).
If you are both, you have access to it twice (both as cleric and wizard spells).

This has nothing to do with MC, and nothing in MC changes it.
Ask the trick question you have, because we can't read your mind and guess what you are trying to pull.

[ProsecutorGodot]

This is correct as domain spells are a class feature.

Was wondering if (for example) Dimension door from trickery would qualify as a wizard spell AND as a cleric spell. The RAW inclusively moves these to the Cleric list but does not exclude them from their source list.

A spell being available on any particular list does not make them a "X-Class" Spell. Spells are spells, they gain the "X-Class" tag when you learn them via levelling in a class.

For demonstrations sake, Light is a cantrip available on 4 class spell lists. If you learn it as a Cleric, it is a Cleric spell. If you multiclass bard and for some reason choose to take Light as a bard spell as well, you now know it as a Bard and Cleric spell.

[PeteNutButter]

To sum up, there is no work around for MC characters to cast higher level spells than those they learn from their individual classes. It's by design. You use the higher level slots to upcast.

To optimize MC spellcasting classes you just pick spells that scale well. Fireball, Spiritual Guardians, Conjure Animals, Healing Spirit, to name a few, all scale quite well with higher level slots. Some are even better than their higher level comparisons. Compare Fireball to Ice Storm for example. Fireball does ~37% more damage (though its more commonly resisted and does not create rough terrain).

A character can get by on these spells for their whole career. You miss out on the more game-breaking high level spells, but you can still contribute just fine.

[tieren]

Was wondering if (for example) Dimension door from trickery would qualify as a wizard spell AND as a cleric spell. The RAW inclusively moves these to the Cleric list but does not exclude them from their source list.

Why in the world would it matter? So you can use Int as your casting stat for Dimension Door? Does your casting stat even matter in that spell?

Is it a spells prepared issue? You want to prepare it out of your spellbook and prepare a bunch of different cleric spells?

[Nhorianscum]

To sum up, there is no work around for MC characters to cast higher level spells than those they learn from their individual classes. It's by design. You use the higher level slots to upcast.

To optimize MC spellcasting classes you just pick spells that scale well. Fireball, Spiritual Guardians, Conjure Animals, Healing Spirit, to name a few, all scale quite well with higher level slots. Some are even better than their higher level comparisons. Compare Fireball to Ice Storm for example. Fireball does ~37% more damage (though its more commonly resisted and does not create rough terrain).

A character can get by on these spells for their whole career. You miss out on the more game-breaking high level spells, but you can still contribute just fine.

There are currently 2 hard workarounds for empty slots in UA.

Greater dragon mark and school of invention both allow a limited but effective way of casting with our empty slots.

The goal here was to see if there are any other ways of doing this to really smooth out progression and allow for more flexibility overall. Upcasting low level wonderspells is great (and I often comment on this) but tends to come online late and progression tends to feel really inelegant.

------------------

Similarly finding ways to shift our casting stat around in a concept allows for a more fluid midgame along with some freedom in concept creation, no huge payoff at late levels, just smoothing things out.

[PeteNutButter]

There are currently 2 hard workarounds for empty slots in UA.

Greater dragon mark and school of invention both allow a limited but effective way of casting with our empty slots.

The goal here was to see if there are any other ways of doing this to really smooth out progression and allow for more flexibility overall. Upcasting low level wonderspells is great (and I often comment on this) but tends to come online late and progression tends to feel really inelegant.

------------------

Similarly finding ways to shift our casting stat around in a concept allows for a more fluid midgame along with some freedom in concept creation, no huge payoff at late levels, just smoothing things out.

Aren't those both UA which is inherently balanced for single class only? I'd argue that UAs in general are immensely imbalanced, even without MCing.

[Nhorianscum]

Aren't those both UA which is inherently balanced for single class only? I'd argue that UAs in general are immensely imbalanced, even without MCing.

Yes. It is UA. This was stated openly.

UA is very much on the table in this thread along with all other source books.

[bid]

Yes. It is UA. This was stated openly.

UA is very much on the table in this thread along with all other source books.
Yeah, you can learn the dragonmark 5th spell at character level 9. That's the only exception.

I think racial spells are the only other character level ones, and you can cast them once per day. There are no freebie there, as you'll need to be wizard 9 to "know" it and use a spell slot to recast it.

[Burley]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that you can avoid "empty slots"

Sorry, but you're wrong.

MC-ing is pretty much never going to keep you on the same power level as a single-classed character, and this is especially true for casters.

The quotes you used are probably taken out of context, and the surrounding text is important. I guarantee that those text blocks begin by saying something along the lines of "When you gain a level in this class, you get..."
You don't swap Sorcerer spells and slots when you gain Wizard levels. If you didn't gain a Sorcerer level, you shouldn't even be looking at that page of the book, because nothing Sorcerer-y is gonna happen today.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that you can avoid "empty slots"

The rules change when you multiclass, the multiclassing rules tell you that your spells known and prepared function as if you were only taking levels in that class. For example, if you are Wizard 5/Cleric 2 you prepare Cleric Spells as if you were only a 2nd level Cleric, and Wizard spells as if you were only a 5th level Wizard.

When preparing cleric spells, you would still be limited to the spell slots available to you as a cleric in this case. You would not be able to prepare up to 4th level Cleric spells, even though your spell slots can go up to that level. Likewise you wouldn't be able to scribe 4th level spells because your Wizard spells can only be up to 3rd level. Your 4th level slot is only going to be used for upcasting in this case.

[Chronos]

It's ambiguous whether you can scribe higher-level wizard spells, but even if you can scribe them, you can't prepare them.

[ProsecutorGodot]

It's ambiguous whether you can scribe higher-level wizard spells, but even if you can scribe them, you can't prepare them.

It's not ambiguous.

Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Since you follow the known and prepared rules for Wizard in this case, as per the multiclass rules, you can't scribe spells of a higher level than you can prepare as a Wizard.

[Nhorianscum]

Since you follow the known and prepared rules for Wizard in this case, as per the multiclass rules, you can't scribe spells of a higher level than you can prepare as a Wizard.

The text used in the above post is what's giving me fits on the wizard side of things.

If a (insert class) spell is strictly a spell gained through that class then the above is true. If a (insert class) spell is a spell on that classes spell list then things get weird. Not broken weird. Just funtimes weird.

So far we have tweets supporting both interpretations from WoTC.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The text used in the above post is what's giving me fits on the wizard side of things.

If a (insert class) spell is strictly a spell gained through that class then the above is true. If a (insert class) spell is a spell on that classes spell list then things get weird. Not broken weird. Just funtimes weird.

So far we have tweets supporting both interpretations from WoTC.

Can you explain this in more detail? A spell is not an "X-Class" spell unless you know or prepare it as that class, spell lists are merely pools of spells that a class can choose their known and prepared spells from.

Those tweets in question also interest me, if you can link them. The only Sage Advice (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/20/can-multiclass-druid-19-wizard-1-scribe-9th-level-wizard-spells-into-their-spellbook/) post I was able to find mentions that an errata was made to be clear that you must be able to prepare a spell to transcribe it into your spellbook.

Since a 1st level Wizard can't prepare or cast 2nd-9th level spells (as per the question in this sage advice) they can't transcribe anything higher than 1st level into their spellbook.

[bid]

If a (insert class) spell is strictly a spell gained through that class then the above is true. If a (insert class) spell is a spell on that classes spell list then things get weird. Not broken weird. Just funtimes weird.
You're not making sense. Could you give a concrete example of that "funtimes weird"?

[Nhorianscum]

Can you explain this in more detail? A spell is not an "X-Class" spell unless you know or prepare it as that class, spell lists are merely pools of spells that a class can choose their known and prepared spells from.

RAW on this? Cause that would be beyond helpful. Definitive proof that something cannot be done is just as useful as proof that a thing can be done here.

As for tweets (not an active follower). There's a few from extra lazy JC that are just "A sorcerer spell is a spell on the sorcerer list" and the like if memory serves.

[ProsecutorGodot]

RAW on this? Cause that would be beyond helpful. Definitive proof that something cannot be done is just as useful as proof that a thing can be done here.

As for tweets (not an active follower). There's a few from extra lazy JC that are just "A sorcerer spell is a spell on the sorcerer list" and the like if memory serves.

Each class that has the spellcasting feature describes it's own spells known and prepared as "X-Class" spells. Features that rely on that tag say so, and unless they do they're just asking for "spells". The PHB was errata'd to make this distinction clear.

You'll also note that Racial spells and Magic Initiate only reference spell lists, they don't label those spells by the class list you chose from because they are "inherent spellcasting". Drow and High Elves are good references for this.

As for "A sorcerer spell is a spell on the sorcerer list" that would be a true statement, there cannot be a sorcerer spell that isn't found on the sorcerer spell list*. This doesn't mean that a spell on the sorcerer list is always a sorcerer spell as many spells are found on multiple lists. Again, we can reference Magic Initiate. Even though you choose from the Sorcerer spell list with Magic Initiate, the spells you choose are not Sorcerer spells.
*unless a feature gives exception, like Divine Magic from Divine Soul Sorcerer, which allows spells from the Cleric spell list to be treated as Sorcerer spells. Keep careful note of the wording of this feature, as it is worded in a way that explicitly differentiates between "Class Spell" and "Class Spell List".

I don't know how better to explain it. To me, the rules for multiclassing a spellcaster read in such a way that it is obvious that the classes are meant to know and prepare their spells individually, meaning you would follow all of the rules for knowing and preparing spells in each spellcasting class you choose to take. The natural conclusion is that when your Sorcerer page says:

You know two 1st-level spells of your choice from the sorcerer spell list.

The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you learn more sorcerer spells of your choice.
That only the spells you learn as a Sorcerer are called Sorcerer spells. Every class with the spellcasting feature specifies it in this way.

[Nhorianscum]

Each class that has the spellcasting feature describes it's own spells known and prepared as "X-Class" spells. Features that rely on that tag say so, and unless they do they're just asking for "spells". The PHB was errata'd to make this distinction clear.

You'll also note that Racial spells and Magic Initiate only reference spell lists, they don't label those spells by the class list you chose from because they are "inherent spellcasting". Drow and High Elves are good references for this.

As for "A sorcerer spell is a spell on the sorcerer list" that would be a true statement, there cannot be a sorcerer spell that isn't found on the sorcerer spell list*. This doesn't mean that a spell on the sorcerer list is always a sorcerer spell as many spells are found on multiple lists. Again, we can reference Magic Initiate. Even though you choose from the Sorcerer spell list with Magic Initiate, the spells you choose are not Sorcerer spells.
*unless a feature gives exception, like Divine Magic from Divine Soul Sorcerer, which allows spells from the Cleric spell list to be treated as Sorcerer spells. Keep careful note of the wording of this feature, as it is worded in a way that explicitly differentiates between "Class Spell" and "Class Spell List".

I don't know how better to explain it. To me, the rules for multiclassing a spellcaster read in such a way that it is obvious that the classes are meant to know and prepare their spells individually, meaning you would follow all of the rules for knowing and preparing spells in each spellcasting class you choose to take. The natural conclusion is that when your Sorcerer page says:

That only the spells you learn as a Sorcerer are called Sorcerer spells. Every class with the spellcasting feature specifies it in this way.

Thank you. This helps a lot.

[Crgaston]

Interestingly, the EK spellcasting feature states that when you gain a level as an EK and replace one of your Spells Known, you "...replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots..."

So the way it reads to me is that if you are an EK5/Wizard 7 and level up to EK 6, you now have the slots of a 9th level caster, meaning you could learn a 5th level spell. It would still have to be Abjuration or Evocation, unless you were replacing your any-school spell

There may well be something I'm missing, though.

[bid]

Interestingly, the EK spellcasting feature states that when you gain a level as an EK and replace one of your Spells Known, you "...replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots..."
Still not good enough. You are nothing but an EK6 when you use the EK features.

We had that discusssion last year.

[Crgaston]

Still not good enough. You are nothing but an EK6 when you use the EK features.

We had that discusssion last year.

Had to go back and re-read the multiclassing rules, but I concur.