Questions on magical attack and defense

[lolcat]

Greetings playground!

I've been trying to use my Google-Fu to fund answers to these questions, but sadly i failed :smallfrown:
So if any of you know some of those, it would be much appreciated:

1.) How to defend from Dispel Magic & friends as a divine caster: Asides from counterspelling, i've read some advice on i.e. having multiple spells with a slightly higher caster-level on you than your regular buffs. The used example was Magic Mouth, since it was a low-level and permanent-duration spell. Sadly though it's an arcane-only spell, so the question is: is there an analog divine spell that can fulfill this role?

2.) How to destroy items/weapons with spells: I could not find clear rules on how to target held/worn items on enemies with spells. What's the AC? If the spell does not allow a save on a regular target, does the same go for the item?

3.) Does an item that triggers i.e. on "enemies being within 30 ft." need line of effect? Asking since, if not, one could wear some slot-less magical items underneath armor/clothing and thus break line of effect to dispel magic, damaging spells etc.

As always, many thanks for your help and a happy new year!

[Telonius]

2. If a spell has the (object) notation, then it can be cast on objects. If it doesn't, it can't. The description of the spells in questions will tell you what the attack would be. It's almost always going to be the case that it involves a saving throw, only if the item is attended or magical (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm):


(object)
The spell can be cast on objects, which receive saving throws only if they are magical or if they are attended (held, worn, grasped, or the like) by a creature resisting the spell, in which case the object uses the creature’s saving throw bonus unless its own bonus is greater. (This notation does not mean that a spell can be cast only on objects. Some spells of this sort can be cast on creatures or objects.) A magic item’s saving throw bonuses are each equal to 2 + one-half the item’s caster level.

If you're targeting something with a spell that requires an attack roll that also has the (object) tag (no idea what spells those would be, but I'm sure there are a few out there), that's a bit murkier. I'd use the general Sunder rules in that case, since the spell would be weaponlike. Opposed attack roll to see if it's affected. If it's a weapon or piece of armor, use this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/exploration.htm#tableCommonArmorWeaponAndShieldHar dnessAndHitPoints) for the hardness and item HP. (There are tables for the main composition of other sorts of items below). Note that Magic Shields and Magic Weapons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm) have additional hardness based on their enhancement bonus: +2 to hardness and +10 HP per point of enhancement bonus.

If not, this line under Sunder (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#sunder) would apply.


Sundering a Carried or Worn Object
You don’t use an opposed attack roll to damage a carried or worn object. Instead, just make an attack roll against the object’s AC. A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character. Attacking a carried or worn object provokes an attack of opportunity just as attacking a held object does. To attempt to snatch away an item worn by a defender rather than damage it, see Disarm. You can’t sunder armor worn by another character.

It's a very rarely-used and often-forgotten rule, but if a target rolls a natural 1 on a save, the spell can damage the items he's carrying (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#savingThrow):


Items Surviving after a Saving Throw
Unless the descriptive text for the spell specifies otherwise, all items carried or worn by a creature are assumed to survive a magical attack. If a creature rolls a natural 1 on its saving throw against the effect, however, an exposed item is harmed (if the attack can harm objects). Refer to Table: Items Affected by Magical Attacks. Determine which four objects carried or worn by the creature are most likely to be affected and roll randomly among them. The randomly determined item must make a saving throw against the attack form and take whatever damage the attack deal.

If an item is not carried or worn and is not magical, it does not get a saving throw. It simply is dealt the appropriate damage.

[lolcat]

Very interesting, thanks for the detailed information!

One follow-up though: what if the spell does not define a target-type? Lesser Orb of Acid, for example, does not define a target-type in its stat-block and even in the text only speaks about a "target". Using this, it should be possible to attack i.e. a spell-component-pouch, right?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Very interesting, thanks for the detailed information!

One follow-up though: what if the spell does not define a target-type? Lesser Orb of Acid, for example, does not define a target-type in its stat-block and even in the text only speaks about a "target". Using this, it should be possible to attack i.e. a spell-component-pouch, right?

Telonius has made a small error, if I'm not mistaken. Most spells that call for an attack roll omit a target line altogether. You can aim such spells at whatever you like per the normal rules for making an attack, including attempts to sunder. It is noteworthy that energy based attacks have only a fraction of their damage applied to objects; half for fire and electricity, full damage for acid and sonic, and one quarter for cold.

[ColorBlindNinja]

1.) How to defend from Dispel Magic & friends as a divine caster: Asides from counterspelling, i've read some advice on i.e. having multiple spells with a slightly higher caster-level on you than your regular buffs. The used example was Magic Mouth, since it was a low-level and permanent-duration spell. Sadly though it's an arcane-only spell, so the question is: is there an analog divine spell that can fulfill this role?

Well, depending on your group's tolerance for cheese, you can use Cheater of Mystra or Selective Spell on Antimagic Field.

You could also pick up the Wild Talent feat and cast Dweomer of Transference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/spells/dweomerOfTransference.htm) on yourself to become immune to all spells.

But all of these border on (or flat out are) TO and probably won't fly at most tables.

EDIT: You can also take levels in Dweomerkeeper to make your spells supernatural and thus impossible to dispel without epic magic. Still TO, sadly. :smallfrown:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Dweomerkeeper isn't TO. That's the class working exactly as intended. There was just a glaring oversight in that they forgot to put the xp cost back into spells that normally have them after a failure to consider things like (limited) wish, gate, or even just shapechange.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Dweomerkeeper isn't TO.

Fair enough, TO is a fuzzy definition.


That's the class working exactly as intended.

The same could also said of spells like Ice Assassin.


There was just a glaring oversight in that they forgot to put the xp cost back into spells that normally have them after a failure to consider things like (limited) wish, gate, or even just shapechange.

Still, I don't think free Wishes is going to fly with most groups. :smallsmile:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Fair enough, TO is a fuzzy definition.



The same could also said of spells like Ice Assassin.



Still, I don't think free Wishes is going to fly with most groups. :smallsmile:

Hey, I'm not arguing that the WoTC team are the best game designers ever. I'm just saying that using a class feature exactly as intended doesn't take anything like the knowledge or skill to even call it extraordinary optimization much less something as rarified as a thing that only works in theory.

I'm right with you on the idea that ice assassin and xp-less wishes need some houserule attention, though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Hey, I'm not arguing that the WoTC team are the best game designers ever.

:smallbiggrin:


I'm just saying that using a class feature exactly as intended doesn't take anything like the knowledge or skill to even call it extraordinary optimization much less something as rarified as a thing that only works in theory.

I mostly brought it up with Dweomerkeeper because I've hear people refer to it as tier 0.


I'm right with you on the idea that ice assassin and xp-less wishes need some houserule attention, though.

I honestly am not certain how you're supposed to use Ice Assassin at all without snapping the game in two. :smallsigh:

[tyckspoon]

I mostly brought it up with Dweomerkeeper because I've hear people refer to it as tier 0.


Outside of XP-free Wishes and certain other nonsense with component-less abilities Dweomerkeeper isn't even that impressive. It has awkward requirements to enter (Arcane + Divine casting, but only advances one class, so you either give up a casting advancement in your primary class or have to use some kind of weird and not otherwise useful things to cheat counting as one of them) and doesn't even give you that much useful.. limited spontaneous casting (better ways to do that, too), ignoring SR/making some of your spells undispellable (Supernatural Spell is *better* at this, but you can get close enough without locking ten of your levels into this class), and metamagic reduction. Which.. ok, I'm not gonna say metamagic reduction isn't cool, but, you know, if that's what you want to do Incantatrix is standing over in the corner hoping you'll ask it to dance.

('tho, I will say if you don't want to go to the extreme of infinite-value Wishes.. Supernatural Permanency on Supernatural spells lets you do some pretty silly things. One of my favorites is a Symbol bomb - key your party to it so your companions are immune, scribe all of the various Symbol spells on the front of a shield or something, cover it up with a drape of your heraldry or god's symbol or whatever, and when you get in a fight whisk off the cover to expose your enemies to a massive aray of debuffs and save-or-lose-or-die effects.)

[Kelb_Panthera]

I mostly brought it up with Dweomerkeeper because I've hear people refer to it as tier 0.

It's certainly quite powerful but it doesn't meaningfully break the limitations inherent to the T1s other than enabling wish spamming.


I honestly am not certain how you're supposed to use Ice Assassin at all without snapping the game in two. :smallsigh:

If you can't ignore the material component, it becomes much more interesting and much less abusable. Great for placing spies by replacing people near people that matter and occasionally even the actual VIPs. All of the TO uses center on bypassing the material component to create minions that you would otherwise be unable to obtain either because of extreme difficulty in accessing a piece of something powerful or because they simply don't exist in the first place but could it theory.

[lolcat]

Thanks for the input! So if i understand it correctly, there are no divine spells perfectly suitable for the role of Magic Mouth?

Also, anyone has an idea on my last Question?

3.) Does an item that triggers i.e. on "enemies being within 30 ft." need line of effect? Asking since, if not, one could wear some slot-less magical items underneath armor/clothing and thus break line of effect to dispel magic, damaging spells etc.

Btw, i found this in the Eberron campaign Setting p. 299:
....., opponents can attack the symbiont itself instead of its host creature. This works the same way as attacking an object: The symbiont gains the benefit of the host's Dexterity modifier to AX instead of its own, and gains any deflection bonus to AC the host as as well. Its own size modifier and natural armor bonus, if any, apply

[Kelb_Panthera]

Generally, you should check LoE unless the spell/item explicitly says not to do so except if requiring it would make the effect non-functional. Unfortunately, there are enough edge cases that it's hard to say anything clearer than that.

[lolcat]

Bumping in case anybody else has good input :smallsmile: