The 5th level DM NPC build I'm terrified of (happily unseen)

[Psionic]

Variant human, start with Healer feature and 8/16/13/16/8/12. First level as rogue.

With your six skills (two coming from background, so make sure you account for that in your choices) you'll need (expertise) Intimidation, Stealth, and Arcana for certain. The rest are flexible. I recommend Sleight of hand, Perception, and Acrobatics (you are a rogue, after all). Use the other expertise where you like (and again, I recommend Sleight of hand)

Second level, multiclass into Wizard. All spells are preference, though I recommend Disguise Self.

Stay wizard until (third) second level so you can pick up (Invisibility at 3rd level and) your Arcane Tradition... Enchantment. Enchantment Wizards get Hypnotic Gaze at second level. This is the bread of the build. A careful reading of the skill will tell you that you can use this as often as you want, and it lasts as long as you want, and it makes a creature useless for the duration. The caveats:

- One target at a time
- Five foot range
- Requires action upkeep
- Target must be able to either see or hear you

(Invisibility means you can stay safe in the meantime, although how useful CC'ing one target at the expense of one character "safely" will vary greatly, and oftentimes not be useful. Invisibility also turns you into a cloaked healer that can patch people up for 1d6+8 without drawing aggro, which is the initial purpose of Invisibility. If you want this now, get this now)

Switch back to Rogue for two levels and get your Roguish Archetype... Thief. With fast hands at 3rd level, you can steal as a bonus action, pop locks as a bonus action, but the most important one, and the butter of the build, "use an object" as a bonus action. What do we do with this option?

Set the scenario for you. You're fighting a group of unwelcomes, humanoids, and you want to know what they're after. Or maybe you're the unwelcomes, and you're trying to get information or secure a villain / hero / innocent for some figure. In either case, you (go invisible or are invisible,) get within five feet of someone, and hypnotize them with your voice, preferably a self-repeating rhyme. If they succeed the initial saving throw, ditch them and move on to the next target. Once one fails the throw, interact with object, stow whatever it is you are holding and grab Manacles out from your pack. Use an object as bonus action, manacle them. This doesn't break Hypnotic Gaze (or Invisibility). You could also make the argument that simply throwing a sack over the head of an incapacitated target would count for "use an object" and not an Improvised weapon attack since no damage can be dealt and it's a trivial task in such a scenario. If so, that wouldn't break Hypnotic Gaze (or invisibility) either. Intimidation is useful to ensure that the sneaky ones don't try to wiggle out of the manacles or pick themselves free (though a well placed dagger in a sensitive spot certainly can convince them if intimidation fails).

It should be obvious why I'm terrified of a DM with this build. If the hypnosis fails, they deep six and they wait until the next day to try again. In combat, they guarantee one of your partymates (or more) is beyond useless. A DM doesn't have to argue with the DM over whether or not throwing a sack over the head of an enemy is an attack or not, he can just do it. Manacles do pretty well for taking away combat prowess. On the other hand, a player with this build usually is outnumbered by DM foes, and has the DM's restraint as to how strong such a build might be. A DM can prepare for such an enemy. Good luck preparing for this as a player.

[JackPhoenix]

That's a PC, not NPC. The GM can already do whatever they want with their NPCs without any need for convulted "builds".

And of course, Invisibility doesn't make you hidden, and you reveal your location the moment you try to do this, meaning the rest of the characters can gang upon you.

And Cha (Intimidate) doesn't work against PCs.

[Psionic]

That's a PC, not NPC. The GM can already do whatever they want with their NPCs without any need for convulted "builds".

Certainly. But a PC might rightfully question "how."

As a DM, and a player, I hate to be the player and be told "because DM hacks" and to tell the player as a DM "because DM hacks"

Roughly level 6, be afraid of any spellcasters that don't immediately chuck a fireball because the alternative is worse.

[MaxWilson]

Frankly I'd be more scared of a Goblin 5th level Skulker Shadow Monk. Stealth +17ish and Nimble Escape and Skulker is a nasty combination to fight.

I know because I've used something very much like this against the PCs. :-P Once.

[Unoriginal]

Invisibility means you can stay safe in the meantime, although how useful CC'ing one target at the expense of one character "safely" will vary greatly, and oftentimes not be useful. Invisibility also turns you into a cloaked healer that can patch people up for 1d6+8 without drawing aggro, which is the initial purpose of Invisibility. If you want this now, get this now)

You can't Hide and use Hypnotic Gaze at the same time, so no, Invisibility doesn't make you "safe", it just makes you a tiny bit harder to hit.




It should be obvious why I'm terrified of a DM with this build.

It's really not. Why would you be scared of this build, and why would a DM use it?

"An invisible guy puts a dagger on your throat, what do you do?" isn't particularly scary. What is it supposed to accomplish.



If the hypnosis fails, they deep six and they wait until the next day to try again.

What. if the hypnosis fail the guy get demolished. How would they escape?


In combat, they guarantee one of your partymates (or more) is beyond useless.

Even if it was somehow true, too bad there is 3-4 more adventurers who will demolish that dumbass invisible fellow.


Good luck preparing for this as a player.

Wait, I'm going to try:

I'm going to play an adventurer, and have them have weapons and armor, or maybe magic spells.

There, I'm prepared against Mr. Invisimanacle.

Certainly. But a PC might rightfully question "how."

As a DM, and a player, I hate to be the player and be told "because DM hacks" and to tell the player as a DM "because DM hacks"

So I guess you don't use the Monster Manual. Or any of the published modules.

Using the game's rules isn't "DM hacks".




Roughly level 6, be afraid of any spellcasters that don't immediately chuck a fireball because the alternative is worse.

You have not demonstrated that, thought. "Oh, no, that spellcaster is threatening me with a dagger" isn't worse than a fireball.

I literally seen this situation happen in-game. A Sorcerer attacked a Death Knight, with only a dagger in hand and none of the group close enough to help.

Needless to say that sorcerer got bisected in the first round.



I'm sorry to be harsh, but I have no idea what you're trying to say beyond that we should be afraid of a not-really-functioning invisibility+mind control build used by a DM, which is puzzling in itself.

[Citan]

You can't Hide and use Hypnotic Gaze at the same time, so no, Invisibility doesn't make you "safe", it just makes you a tiny bit harder to hit.

Yes he can. You should read properly before answering in such a "raw" tone.
He's speaking of a Rogue/Wizard multiclass, that used Invisibility before closing up to enemies (and obviously won't come close if he didn't succeed on an initial Stealth check).

Turn starts: come close to A, use action to Hypnotic Gaze, whatever result, use Hide as bonus action. If both fail, you are not in a good situation. If just Hide succeeds, you're mostly safe unless the first guy trying to find you (wasting its action to do so) succeeds and immediately tells everyone else.

Once you have a Gaze succeeds, on subsequent turns use up one of the tactics aforementioned.

What. if the hypnosis fail the guy get demolished. How would they escape?

Probably because "the guy gets demolished" is not at all a certitude. First case, he succeeds on Hide (confer previous point). Second case, in one way or another he gets localized and whole party attacks him: what are the odds?
- Attacks are at disadvantage (he's still invisible, and few people care enough about Invisibility to learn See Invisibility, lest prepare it) so chances of autohit through crit is low.
- Being a Wizard, he knows Shield and have at least one 1st slot (otherwise he's a moron who deserves his fate). So effective AC to hit will be ~21 (13+3+5).
So overall the chance of killing him is very, VERY low. Best case will be hitting him enough to make him break concentration on Invisibility. What then?

- Being a Rogue, he can Dash as a bonus action
- Being a Wizard, he knows Longstrider so he may have buffed himself before starting (after all we are talking about a very specific tactic, might as well go all the way).
So the minimum distance that character can run away will be 30*3 (move+action+bonus action) or maybe 40*3, so 90 or 120 feet.
Only a Monk could hope catching up to him, only a Ranger, Fighter or Devotion Paladin could hope being accurate enough with a long-range weapon to put him down before he gets into "auto disadvantage range" and beyond.



Even if it was somehow true, too bad there is 3-4 more adventurers who will demolish that dumbass invisible fellow.

Yeah, because, obviously, that guy came alone...
You are saddening sometimes you know? Jumping on a guy before even actually trying to understand what he meant even when that means filling a few blanks?
OP obviously described a "support" character whose main job is disabling one opponent in a reliable way. So obviously that guy has his own party with (maybe hidden a bit further or on the contrary going straight to focus attention).

I certainly agree with you that it's not at all a "oh my god what can I do against it?" trick, considering all the limitations, at least the "favorable target part" (casters all proficient in WIS, many races having advantage/immunity against charm) and the damage part: it's reasonable to expect any friendly to smack the charmed creature since "visibly dazed", and it's not a big stretch for a DM to rule it deals one HP damage).
I'd rather rate it as "an interesting trick to use once or twice in favorable situation to spice up variety", whether on PC side or NPC side (in other words, definitely not building a character around -fortunately, a Rogue/Wizard is very viable dual-class in the first place).

But technically as long as the initial conditions are met (you pop from hidden to use HG then hide again), there is no particular reason for enemy party to know, or even suspect, that the creature that inflicted a magical effect on their friend needs to be still close to it (so caster is safe unless every enemy comes up and fills space around, at which time they will definitely understand there is an invisible creature taking up some place).
And even if enemies quickly realize slapping may be enough, it's still one round or two where several enemies wasted actions and/or moves.

Whether it was a beneficial tradeoff is something that cannot be evaluated outside a true concrete situation. :)

[JackPhoenix]

obviously won't come close if he didn't succeed on an initial Stealth check

There's nothing to "succeed" on. You roll a Dex (Stealth) check, and that's it. There's no set DC, you'll get what you roll


Turn starts: come close to A, use action to Hypnotic Gaze, whatever result, use Hide as bonus action. If both fail, you are not in a good situation. If just Hide succeeds, you're mostly safe unless the first guy trying to find you (wasting its action to do so) succeeds and immediately tells everyone else.

The bonus action he just used to play with manacles?


Probably because "the guy gets demolished" is not at all a certitude. First case, he succeeds on Hide (confer previous point). Second case, in one way or another he gets localized and whole party attacks him: what are the odds?
- Attacks are at disadvantage (he's still invisible, and few people care enough about Invisibility to learn See Invisibility, lest prepare it) so chances of autohit through crit is low.
- Being a Wizard, he knows Shield and have at least one 1st slot (otherwise he's a moron who deserves his fate). So effective AC to hit will be ~21 (13+3+5).
So overall the chance of killing him is very, VERY low. Best case will be hitting him enough to make him break concentration on Invisibility. What then?

They don't need to break his concentration if he casts Shield. He was kind enough to end the Invisibility for them. And you know what's NOT at disadvantage? Grapple... which also conveniently prevents him from running away.


- Being a Rogue, he can Dash as a bonus action

Where's he getting so many bonus actions at once? Object interaction, Hide, Dash...


OP obviously described a "support" character whose main job is disabling one opponent in a reliable way. So obviously that guy has his own party with (maybe hidden a bit further or on the contrary going straight to focus attention).

The OP described no such thing. If anything, the description of tactics points out to operating alone.

[Unoriginal]

Beside what JackPhoenix said, a few more points:


Yes he can. You should read properly before answering in such a "raw" tone.
He's speaking of a Rogue/Wizard multiclass, that used Invisibility before closing up to enemies (and obviously won't come close if he didn't succeed on an initial Stealth check).

Turn starts: come close to A, use action to Hypnotic Gaze, whatever result, use Hide as bonus action. If both fail, you are not in a good situation. If just Hide succeeds, you're mostly safe unless the first guy trying to find you (wasting its action to do so) succeeds and immediately tells everyone else.

Hiding doesn't magically let you go out in a puff of nothingness. InvisiRogue would need to TALK to activate the Hypnotic Gaze effect, then would have to stay within 5ft of the target. Even with a successful Hide check (which is not a given), the rules are clear that you can guess where an hiding opponent is and still attack. Even if we're being generous and assuming no AoE nor Extra Attacks being used to prod multiple squares, your typical adventuring group will have prodded the whole 8 squares around their friends in a max of 2 rounds.



Once you have a Gaze succeeds, on subsequent turns use up one of the tactics aforementioned.

Again, what are those tactics supposed to accomplish? Manacling one person and threatening them with a dagger isn't going to stop adventurers.



Probably because "the guy gets demolished" is not at all a certitude.

Neither is "the InvisiRogue succeed at DEX (Stealth)". It's obviously an hyperbole to signify the likely outcome.




- Being a Rogue, he can Dash as a bonus action

Which would break the whole Gaze thing.



- Being a Wizard, he knows Longstrider so he may have buffed himself before starting (after all we are talking about a very specific tactic, might as well go all the way).
So the minimum distance that character can run away will be 30*3 (move+action+bonus action) or maybe 40*3, so 90 or 120 feet.
Only a Monk could hope catching up to him, only a Ranger, Fighter or Devotion Paladin could hope being accurate enough with a long-range weapon to put him down before he gets into "auto disadvantage range" and beyond.

I'd count "has to flee for their life immediately or be killed" under "get demolished", personally. But fine, the odds are the InvisiRogue either get killed or flee and then people are aware of their little trick.




Yeah, because, obviously, that guy came alone...

Given that OP presented it as a solo tactic, you can keep your sarcasm.



OP obviously described a "support" character whose main job is disabling one opponent in a reliable way. So obviously that guy has his own party with (maybe hidden a bit further or on the contrary going straight to focus attention).[QUOTE=Citan;23610383]

You're inventing factors to justify your defense. OP did no such things. And nothing about what was presented "disable one opponent in a reliable way".

[QUOTE=Citan;23610383]
I'd rather rate it as "an interesting trick to use once or twice in favorable situation to spice up variety", whether on PC side or NPC side (in other words, definitely not building a character around -fortunately, a Rogue/Wizard is very viable dual-class in the first place).

Sure, but I think at this point of the game's life we're already aware that "get invisible and mind control foes" is a viable tactic.



But technically as long as the initial conditions are met (you pop from hidden to use HG then hide again), there is no particular reason for enemy party to know, or even suspect, that the creature that inflicted a magical effect on their friend needs to be still close to it (so caster is safe unless every enemy comes up and fills space around, at which time they will definitely understand there is an invisible creature taking up some place).
And even if enemies quickly realize slapping may be enough, it's still one round or two where several enemies wasted actions and/or moves.

Again, you need to reveal your presence for the Gaze to work. And then it'd take one turn for one person to slap the Gazed person awake.



Whether it was a beneficial tradeoff is something that cannot be evaluated outside a true concrete situation. :)

True, but we need to make clear what the pros and the cons for this tradeoff are, and so far there is not many cons.


You're honestly better off using Invisibility to force a bag filled with glue and eye-irritating products on the face of the caster so that all the "need to see" spells can't be used for a few turns.



You are saddening sometimes you know? Jumping on a guy before even actually trying to understand what he meant even when that means filling a few blanks?

I know I'm saddening, yes.

As for trying to understand, I do that. But filling blanks isn't "trying to understand" it's "modify what the person said so it fits what you consider makes sense", which more often than not leads to incorrect assumptions because your personal ideas and thought process aren't the other person's ideas and thought process.

[ImproperJustice]

There are some powerful almost nameless K undertones in this thread......:
Minus the recycled art.....


So how does this guy fare against the almighty bag of flour?
Besides see invisible, other threats to this build include but are not limited to:
Dancing Lights, Faerie Fire, Mind Spike, Seeking Arrow, a vial of oil, a can of paint, a bed sheet, alchemist’s fire, a PC with alertness, a PC with a decent perception roll, a PC with any area effect attack, a PC with a decent Wisdom Save, a PC with a familiar that has sharp senses or blindsight, or a PC with Sentinel.