Leadership, pc creates Cohort or DM creates?

[Warlawk]

So I've seen a lot of references around to how PCs can create exactly the cohort they are looking for, but I cannot seem to find any documentation to support this. The leadership feat states as follows:


A character can try to attract a cohort of a particular race, class, and alignment.

Try... that's not exactly a clear statement that you get to create your own cohort. Currently playing an undead game where I'm running a Ghoul Cleric Necromancer taking Undead Leadership. Mostly I just want it so that I can have disposable mindless hordes to toss at unsuspecting towns but I was looking around to find any sort of official documentation supporting the fact that PCs can create their own custom cohorts.

Thank you in advance for any help or info!

[Jack_Simth]

So I've seen a lot of references around to how PCs can create exactly the cohort they are looking for, but I cannot seem to find any documentation to support this.That'd be because there isn't any. At least, none I've ever encountered.

That said:
When a DM permits a character to take leadership, that DM generally doesn't want to have to think "OK, so what would Joe do?" every round in addition to all the other things the DM needs to think about every round ("what would Trag the Troglodyte do?"). So it's very common for DMs to permit players to control the cohort. Likewise, the DM already has a lot of work to do with preparing encounters, and so doesn't want to think much about what Joe would pick during level up for skills, feats, class options, and so on. So it's very common for DMs to permit players to control the cohort's build. And DM's don't generally want to make yet another NPC to track (especially when he's going to have to build five or six to present, and only one will get chosen), and so permit the player to make the cohort from scratch.

So when folks say "To solve this problem you're talking about, take leadership, and get a Class X cohort with Y feat and Z spell", they're operating under some assumptions that are very commonly true.

But no, there's no actual rules text backing it up.

[Warlawk]

That'd be because there isn't any. At least, none I've ever encountered.

That said:
When a DM permits a character to take leadership, that DM generally doesn't want to have to think "OK, so what would Joe do?" every round in addition to all the other things the DM needs to think about every round ("what would Trag the Troglodyte do?"). So it's very common for DMs to permit players to control the cohort. Likewise, the DM already has a lot of work to do with preparing encounters, and so doesn't want to think much about what Joe would pick during level up for skills, feats, class options, and so on. So it's very common for DMs to permit players to control the cohort's build. And DM's don't generally want to make yet another NPC to track (especially when he's going to have to build five or six to present, and only one will get chosen), and so permit the player to make the cohort from scratch.

So when folks say "To solve this problem you're talking about, take leadership, and get a Class X cohort with Y feat and Z spell", they're operating under some assumptions that are very commonly true.

Everything here matches with my experiences and expectations.



But no, there's no actual rules text backing it up.

This is the confirmation I was looking for, thank you!

[Telok]

Personally I always build and advance the NPCs myself, cohorts included. But I enjoy building characters, so there's usually a decent selection of NPCs around to recruit from.

I let the players run them though.

[Elysiume]

Since the rules part is already sorted, I'll throw something that may be interesting on the pile: the 3.5/PF Deck of Many Things offers a Knight card that gives you a follower that you can take on as a cohort, if you have the appropriate feat. The 5e DoMT offers a Knight card that explicitly gives you a follower that you control. I think it's a bit of a win/win for the player to control their cohorts and followers that are primarily player-driven. The DM can interject if necessary, but letting the player take the reins on their cohort allows them more control on the interpersonal dynamics and alleviates some of the DM burden.

[Falontani]

When I dm and someone asks for leadership I ask them what kind of cohort they would be looking for. I will then create an appropriate cohort that lies somewhere on what they were asking for. They then get to control the cohort as they would their own character, but there may be times that I pop in and run their character for a small while.

When I create a cohort for someone they might ask for something vague or something super specific. When they ask for something vague the cohort is usually decently optimized, but built in a way that the player may need to learn a new mechanic, system, play style, or just role play much more differently than their used to. I also give them options to choose an appropriate npc as a cohort.
If they choose an npc and the npc is more powerful than them I usually don't give them the sheet and play the character myself until they are powerful enough, I refuse, or in one case, the caster was kind of spontaneous and crazy; she enervated herself so that it would be fun for her. If the npc is really weak then they go through accelerated learning, gaining levels quickly.

[Crake]

Since the rules part is already sorted, I'll throw something that may be interesting on the pile: the 3.5/PF Deck of Many Things offers a Knight card that gives you a follower that you can take on as a cohort, if you have the appropriate feat. The 5e DoMT offers a Knight card that explicitly gives you a follower that you control. I think it's a bit of a win/win for the player to control their cohorts and followers that are primarily player-driven. The DM can interject if necessary, but letting the player take the reins on their cohort allows them more control on the interpersonal dynamics and alleviates some of the DM burden.

I doesn't say you need the feat though, in fact, it makes no mention of leadership at all, it simply says that the knight serves loyally until death, so there's actually no need to get leadership for the knight at all in 3.5

[Florian]

The PF version of Leadership is pretty direct: Cohorts and followers are NPC with class levels.

[redking]

The PC has no control over the game world. He can no more create a cohort than we can create customized friends in real life. The best the PC can do is try to attract the kind the cohort that he wants. Depending on the kind of setting, certain classes will be easy to attract, others harder because they are less common. Maximum cohort level is simply the maximum, it doesn't mean that a cohort of that level will be attracted.

[RoboEmperor]

DM creates the Cohort. Unlike your PC you're not raising the cohort since birth. The DM is. So whether your cohort has the feats you want or not is not up to you.

You can try to guide your cohort's development after you gain him, but you can't design one from scratch because you're attracting something existing that you had no previous control over.

Now you can use fluff for the contrary. My cohort is a brother and I guided his growth from birth or something like that. But if you just grab leadership out of the blue your DM creates not you.

[Talverin]

In my experience, the whole 'try to attract' thing normally means you create your Cohort however you want... but DM has final approval. If the thing you make is unbalanced, or doesn't fit with the rest of the game, it gives the DM rules standing to go, "Uhm, yeah, you can't find one of those." I have never seen anyone DM Leadership as the DM having to do all the work for the player. Now, occasionally taking over the Cohort to make sure they're not TOO mindlessly subservient is perfectly reasonable; interjecting morals or ethics into their actions as a way to 'handle' the additional power of an extra playable character.

[OgresAreCute]

If a player takes Leadership, they're probably taking it for the cohort, and if they're taking it for the cohort they probably have something particular in mind for it. Therefore, I'd let them make and play the cohort themselves so they can get what they want out of it.

[Mehangel]

As a GM, when players gain the leadership feat (or similar), I generally require the player to choose an NPC that they have already met (although, some choose to hold off until they come across someone they are interested in). I almost always require that followers use NPC classes (but are generally allowed to pick their race).

I do allow players to utilize downtime rules to retrain the NPC's feats, skills, and classes, but are otherwise stuck with the NPC as is. Players are also given full control over leveling the cohort up.

These house rules might seem harsh, but I also occasionally grant the leadership feat for free.

[Palanan]

In my first 3.5 campaign, I had already incorporated my cohort into my backstory, so I built him myself (badly) and had full control over him. We had another player who shaped his entire character concept around leading an army of expatriate elves, so he put a lot of effort into his cohort and NPCs. (Who were almost entirely wiped out in our first encounter with a green dragon….)

In my first Pathfinder game, the DM originally told me that I could create my own cohort—and then, after I’d gone to a lot of effort to build her, the DM abruptly said he’d be giving me a cohort but he’d be running him as an NPC. I don’t think my character ever actually spoke to his cohort during that game. Frustrating to say the least, especially since I really liked my original concept.

[Elkad]

A cohort is a cohort for a reason. Sub-optimal stats, poor feat selection, etc. Otherwise he'd be out there on his own.

So as the GM, I'm going to do most of the creation. PC says "I'd like to recruit a barbarian from these wood elves".

So I'll make him one, but it's going to have Skill Focus:Climb and Weapon Focus:Longbow or something equally suitable for an arboreal warrior. And some skillpoints "wasted" in Profession:Arborculturist.
Functional, but not optimal.
From that point on, it's the PC's to control, including level-up choices. If the PC wants to spend his own resources getting his cohort a Chaos Shuffle, great.

And of course I reserve the right to butt in at any point later. I rarely use it though.

[unseenmage]

The book Power of Faerun has additional info on Leadership including expanded info on attracting specific creatures as Cohorts.

[EldritchWeaver]

The PF version of Leadership is pretty direct: Cohorts and followers are NPC with class levels.

In addition, Ultimate Campaign has this to say:


Cohort: Advancement choices for a cohort include feats, skills, ability score increases, and class levels.


A cohort is generally considered a player-controlled companion, and therefore you get to decide how the cohort advances. The GM might step in if you make choices that are inappropriate for the cohort, use the cohort as a mechanism for pushing the boundaries of the game rules, or treat the cohort unfairly. a cohort is a loyal companion and ally to you, and expects you to treat him fairly, generously, without aloofness or cruelty, and without devoting too much attention to other minions such as familiars or animal companions. The cohort’s attitude toward you is generally helpful (as if using the Diplomacy skill); he complies with most of your requests without any sort of skill check, except for requests that are against his nature or put him in serious peril.


If you exploit your cohort, you’ll quickly find your Leadership score shrinking away. Although this doesn’t change the cohort’s level, the cohort can’t gain levels until your Leadership score allows for a level increase, so if you’re a poor leader, you must wait longer for your cohort to level up. In extreme cases, the cohort might abandon you, and you’ll have to recruit a new cohort.


Examples of inappropriate advancement choices are a good-aligned companion selecting morally questionable feats, a clumsy cohort suddenly putting many ranks in Disable Device (so he can take all the risks in searching for traps instead of you), a spellcaster cohort taking nothing but item creation feats (so you get access to plenty of cheap magic items at the cost of just one feat, Leadership), a fighter cohort taking a level in wizard when he had no previous interest in magic, or you not interacting with your cleric cohort other than to gain defensive spells from a different class or a flanking bonus.


When you select the Leadership feat, you and the GM should discuss the cohort’s background, personality, interests, and role in the campaign and party. Not only does this give the GM the opportunity to reject a cohort concept that goes against the theme of the campaign, but the GM can plan adventure hooks involving the cohort for future quests. The random background generator can help greatly when filling in details about the cohort. Once the discussion is done, writing down a biography and personality profile of the cohort helps cement his role in the campaign and provides a strong reference point for later talks about what is or is not appropriate advancement for the cohort.

So a player can largely get what he wants.