Warriors Spirit

[KyleG]

Two characters both in need of an martial archetype

1. Previously a sage now out for vengeance with skills learnt over the last 5 years. From underground fight clubs, to ex military teachers. She has learnt to fight the hard way preparing her for this moment. Whether fists or swords or bow no-one in her path will be left standing. Think Jennifer Garners Peppermint who fits the bill quite well actually.

2. My other heroine has spent the last 10 years running from her past always looking over her shoulder even when only the sea sits back there. Taken in by the former soldier turned captain of a sometime merchant sometime pirate vessel she has trained under his expert eye and worked her way up to first mate. With a no nonsense attitude for anyone not listening to her captain she is the captains right hand, dealing discipline or leading her crew on both legitimate and illegitimate missions across the seas. Sword and Shield?

I considered swashbuckler for 2 but the natural flair wasn't there, even if she is at least somewhat charismatic i guess.
And Samurai could fit 1 but again lacking the Charisma aspect even more so than 2.

Any suggestions? I dont see either being wielders of big two handed weapons although i could be wrong.

[Crgaston]

1. Kensei Monk

2. Blue Dragon (or Storm, or maybe Sea) Sorcerer 1/ Swashbuckler 6/ Sorcerer x

3. ???

4. Profit

[KyleG]

1. Kensei Monk

2. Blue Dragon (or Storm, or maybe Sea) Sorcerer 1/ Swashbuckler 6/ Sorcerer x

3. ???

4. Profit

Why sorcerer?

[Crgaston]

You said Swashbuckler alone lacked "natural flair." Sorcerer has that. Just a level of Sorcerer can give you a couple of cool abilities that can really play up your Swashbuckler's mobility and Charisma. Cantrips like Message, Mending, Shape Water and Booming Blade, and spells like Jump for leaping to/around an enemy ship and Mage Armor for improved AC without having to wear armor (or just for free as a Dragon Sorc) bring a lot of flavor and power to a Swashbuckler. It's a really synergistic pairing. Once you get to Rogue 5 or 6 you can start adding more Sorcerer levels to increase your magical utility to match your martial utility. It's like a Cha based Arcane Trickster.

[KyleG]

You said Swashbuckler alone lacked "natural flair." Sorcerer has that. Just a level of Sorcerer can give you a couple of cool abilities that can really play up your Swashbuckler's mobility and Charisma. Cantrips like Message, Mending, Shape Water and Booming Blade, and spells like Jump for leaping to/around an enemy ship and Mage Armor for improved AC without having to wear armor (or just for free as a Dragon Sorc) bring a lot of flavor and power to a Swashbuckler. It's a really synergistic pairing. Once you get to Rogue 5 or 6 you can start adding more Sorcerer levels to increase your magical utility to match your martial utility. It's like a Cha based Arcane Trickster.

Lol. I read that differently to you lol. I meant the natural flair of the character wasnt there. She isnt overly charismatic not a swashbuckler felt too much like a show off, laugh at your opponents type.
So shes not the 8-10 of the first character, more like a 10-12 in Cha.

They are both "just get it done" types. The first does it with anger, the second as part of her job. I know im struggling to articulate this lol.

[Crgaston]

Lol. I read that differently to you lol. I meant the natural flair of the character wasnt there. She isnt overly charismatic not a swashbuckler felt too much like a show off, laugh at your opponents type.
So shes not the 8-10 of the first character, more like a 10-12 in Cha.

They are both "just get it done" types. The first does it with anger, the second as part of her job. I know im struggling to articulate this lol.


Oooooh, I see now. Sorry!

Maybe a Dex Battlemaster then? Or even Battlemaster/Thief?

[Azgeroth]

how about

1. ranger x

2. valor bard/rogue inquisitor


from your description, fighter doesn't seem to fit well, as there training as been intermitant at best, but there is a fair bit of a 'clandestine' nature to both..

ranger fits 1 quite well i think, 2 is a little trickier, especially as a non-cha character, valor bard gets you martial proficiencies and alot of skill versatility, plus the bardic inspiration fleshes out the assistant commander role really well. rogue though fits the on the run aspect much better, and inquisitor will help with understanding motives, but lacks the martial prowess of other options (i.e. only light armour, no shield, one attack, but you get SA!)

[KyleG]

how about

1. ranger x

2. valor bard/rogue inquisitor

from your description, fighter doesn't seem to fit well, as there training as been intermitant at best, but there is a fair bit of a 'clandestine' nature to both..

ranger fits 1 quite well i think, 2 is a little trickier, especially as a non-cha character, valor bard gets you martial proficiencies and alot of skill versatility, plus the bardic inspiration fleshes out the assistant commander role really well. rogue though fits the on the run aspect much better, and inquisitor will help with understanding motives, but lacks the martial prowess of other options (i.e. only light armour, no shield, one attack, but you get SA!)

Im wondering if an archer would fit the first one better. Fits the vengeance idea. Cripples from a far then zips in for the finishing blow? She is a Half Elf so that could work i think. Focus in on Dex?

Fighter 2 isnt going to have an armour issue...shes a tortle. I think the "on the run" is more character than class, so Crgaston's battlemaster crossed with a rogue might work (14+2, 13, 15, 8, 10+1, 12)

[Arkhios]

Im wondering if an archer would fit the first one better. Fits the vengeance idea. Cripples from a far then zips in for the finishing blow? She is a Half Elf so that could work i think. Focus in on Dex?

Fighter 2 isnt going to have an armour issue...shes a tortle. I think the "on the run" is more character than class, so Crgaston's battlemaster crossed with a rogue might work (14+2, 13, 15, 8, 10+1, 12)

Arcane Archer might work too. Or, Battle Master. Or Eldritch Knight. Or even Champion. Anyway, whichever you choose, as a fighter, you could afford to spend one of your Ability Score increases to take Tavern Brawler.
Because of Tavern Brawler, you might not want to entirely dump your strength, because RAW there are no way to attack with Unarmed Strike using Dexterity without multi-classing into Monk (and I'm not telling you should). But, hear me out:

Take the Archery Fighting Style. It will technically make your Dexterity modifier count as 2 points higher when attacking with a ranged weapon. Personally, I'm of the opinion that accuracy matters more than damage. You could have Dex 16 and Str 20 (for example) and have the same +5 bonus to attack rolls both in melee and at range. Your Ranged Attack would deal slightly less damage, but considering that the flat bonuses to damage matter very little in the end, because most of the damage you deal comes from the dice (for example, critical hits multiply only the dice, not the bonuses).

Additionally, as a Fighter, you would have by far superior amount of attacks per Attack Action compared to any other class. And you'd have Action Surge, to let you make it twice per round.
As a fighter all your attacks could be made with either your bow, your sword, or your fists. Tavern Brawler is great exactly because with it your Unarmed Strikes would deal 1d4+strength instead of 1+strength. The key is that 1d4 is a die that can be multiplied on a critical hit. A flat 1+Str can't (and even if your DM let you, a maximum of 2+str isn't exactly very impressive, right? :smallbiggrin:)

I disagree that fighter wouldn't fit. The class alone doesn't determine how you may have learned your skills. Factor in your background, and you could well have been a Sage who learned fighting skills afterwards from someone else, long before you became an adventurer. That's the whole point of having a mechanical background: it represents what you did before you became an adventurer. The mechanical benefits from the background come in the form of the feature you get from it. In other words, your background represents what your character did before she became a Player Character.

[KyleG]

Arcane Archer might work too. Or, Battle Master. Or Eldritch Knight. Or even Champion. Anyway, whichever you choose, as a fighter, you could afford to spend one of your Ability Score increases to take Tavern Brawler.
Because of Tavern Brawler, you might not want to entirely dump your strength, because RAW there are no way to attack with Unarmed Strike using Dexterity without multi-classing into Monk (and I'm not telling you should). But, hear me out:
...
...
...
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I disagree that fighter wouldn't fit. The class alone doesn't determine how you may have learned your skills. Factor in your background, and you could well have been a Sage who learned fighting skills afterwards from someone else, long before you became an adventurer. That's the whole point of having a mechanical background: it represents what you did before you became an adventurer. The mechanical benefits from the background come in the form of the feature you get from it. In other words, your background represents what your character did before she became a Player Character.

As per original write up she left her academic life in the pursuit of skills to carry out revenge so all the "fighting" skills were learnt in the last 5 years. And ranger doesnt fit i dont think.
My only question is why anyone (except monk) would opt to do an unarmed strike when a perfectly good short sword to the gut will hurt more. Flavor? And therefore dumping str would be ok. I was leaning towards a 12 str / 16 dex build with archery as the first style. Using a short sword/scimitar for close quarters.

[JackPhoenix]

My only question is why anyone (except monk) would opt to do an unarmed strike when a perfectly good short sword to the gut will hurt more. Flavor?

Because there are situations where punching someone can be acceptable, while stabbing won't. Tavern brawls (you know, like the feat) are fun until someone pulls a weapon. Beating someone in underground fight club propably doesn't involve weapons. Punching a subordinate on a pirate ship may be a way to establish authority, attacking him with a sword is a nice way to get a mutiny. And you propably can't bring a sword to a royal ball, but nobody can take away your fists or feet. Same when you end up captured.

Also, I'm surprised nobody suggested barbarian. You don't have to wear armor, which is always a plus on a ship, you're incredibly tough, you hit hard, and you have incentive to keep both Str and Dex decent... and if the Str lags behind, you can compensate with Rage and Reckless Attack (and it works with fists too). And for the former, vengeance, rage, what's the difference anyway?

[KyleG]

Because there are situations where punching someone can be acceptable, while stabbing won't. Tavern brawls (you know, like the feat) are fun until someone pulls a weapon. Beating someone in underground fight club propably doesn't involve weapons. Punching a subordinate on a pirate ship may be a way to establish authority, attacking him with a sword is a nice way to get a mutiny. And you propably can't bring a sword to a royal ball, but nobody can take away your fists or feet. Same when you end up captured.

Also, I'm surprised nobody suggested barbarian. You don't have to wear armor, which is always a plus on a ship, you're incredibly tough, you hit hard, and you have incentive to keep both Str and Dex decent... and if the Str lags behind, you can compensate with Rage and Reckless Attack (and it works with fists too). And for the former, vengeance, rage, what's the difference anyway?

Good points...very good points...I can see both characters using that feat...hmmm.
And i had briefly considered the first character going barbarian...but i couldnt for the life of me flavour from her academic background to barbarian after reading barbarian in PHB again. felt like they are almost a race unto themselves and only storm fits i reckon??? I think fighter might still be the way to go.

[JackPhoenix]

Good points...very good points...I can see both characters using that feat...hmmm.
And i had briefly considered the first character going barbarian...but i couldnt for the life of me flavour from her academic background to barbarian after reading barbarian in PHB again. felt like they are almost a race unto themselves and only storm fits i reckon??? I think fighter might still be the way to go.

Ignore fluff. That's mutable. Barbarian doesn't have to be savage. Noble with anger issues? Elven warrior who goes into a sort of a battle trance instead of rage? Conan the librarian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8)? Religious fanatic who channels divine wrath in a different way than a paladin? All valid options for barbarian class.

[KyleG]

Ignore fluff. That's mutable. Barbarian doesn't have to be savage. Noble with anger issues? Elven warrior who goes into a sort of a battle trance instead of rage? Conan the librarian (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZHoHaAYHq8)? Religious fanatic who channels divine wrath in a different way than a paladin? All valid options for barbarian class.

Good advice. But i think the fighter is more her now...especially with the tavern brawler knowledge.

[Man_Over_Game]

For a character to be complete, I've always been of the opinion that the combat mechanics should match how the character is.


The clearest choice here is the Battlemaster or Kensei, for being able to adapt in combat to kill any opponent. If you want to focus more on the "sage" aspect and you're willing to ignore the sword-and-bows bit, you can go Long Death monk with a single level into Druid for Shillelagh and just max out Wisdom as you drain the life out of your enemies. For a combination of the two, Ranger (into Hunter or Monster Slayer) can be a solid fit if you're willing to work in some magic. Arcane Archer can also fit, harassing enemies with a high intelligence score and whipping out dual swords when they get close.
There's not much to work on here that really shouts out "unique" or "playstyle". Ranger seems like the closest fit, with Favored Terrain: Coast. Alternatively, a Bladesinger with a pet Octopus familiar could be very flavorful as a pirate mage.

[thoroughlyS]

Echoing battle master with Tavern Brawler. Learning your skills from a series of mentors can easily mean picking up a bunch of fighting tricks (e.g. maneuvers) that you splash into fights when you need to. "Whether fists or swords or bow..." screams Tavern Brawler, so you can manage with whatever you have on-hand. Kensei could also work, but I don't see why this character would want any of the ancillary monk tricks (e.g. Slow Fall, Purity of Body).
This is pretty much just the backstory for the character, with no mention of your playstyle in-game. What do you want this character to do, exactly? With the description you've given so far, they could be basically anything that doesn't rely on CHA.

[Trickery]

For the first character, the archetype Monster Hunter from Xanathar's might be more your flavor. Bonus skills, superiority die to boost your attacks and some checks and saves, limited magical ability, and the character is particularly adept at fighting aberrations, feys, fiends, and undead.

[Calimehter]

For the second one, I see DEX-based Battlemaster Fighter with the Sailor background doing a good job of reflecting where she has been and the fairly specific fighting styles she would have learned during ship-board combat. Personality/Flaw/Bond would focus on the slightly paranoid aspects of the job and her upbringing. Acrobatics and Intimidation seem like the go-to class-based skills to go with what the background already gave you. Go with Commanders and/or Maneuvering Strike for leadership-in-battle abilities, and probably Dueling style to keep a hand free for things like messing with rigging and the like.

See if the GM will work with you to have a 'buckler'-type shield (such as giving only +1AC but allowing for object interaction with the mostly-free hand)?

The Athlete feat is normally not all that great, but might deserve a look-see on a ship where jumping to other boats, climbing rigging, and standing up from prone quickly (whether from a swaying deck or from a failed acrobatics check) could come in very handy.

[KyleG]

Thanks everyone. Flaws etc probably got covered. Although a paranoia flaw spin could be fun. I kinda wish flaws were kinda like that portrayed in critical role...a boon and burden type situation.
Anyway
1. She is going to end up being either battlemaster with maybe a barbarian dip or arcane archer with as noted above whipping out the two weapons for close quarters. She is effectively a self/informally trained vigilante. Dex focus? And her past is a core part of her so with 14 in intelligence she has less pts to spend on physical attributes. And no she is not an eldritch knight. The 14 is independent of her build almost.

2. This ones more difficult. Shes been this pirate/merchant sailor for the past 10 odd years and she has no memory of before being found by the captain. Im also thinking of going with battlemaster but with a swashbuckler dip. Shes had more formal training via the captain but some of what she has seen has probably rubbed off. But at the same time she has that tortle str and unarmoured dc to capitalize on. She might shove whereas 1 is more likely to trip.

When these characters began to take shape they felt quite different with their pasts but they have crept closer as ive thought about them but I dont want them to play the same character but with different pasts. If they both end up battlemaster will the different dips be enough to differentiate them? Or will 1 have to become the archer build? As kind of an assassination sniper type revenge set of skills.

[Calimehter]

If they both end up battlemaster will the different dips be enough to differentiate them? Or will 1 have to become the archer build? As kind of an assassination sniper type revenge set of skills.

You could do the first one as a Champion instead of a Battlemaster. It would reflect her all-around physical training (along with Tavern Brawler) rather than a focus on a specific set of fighting style(s) that the Battlemaster maneuvers model.

[KyleG]

This is pretty much just the backstory for the character, with no mention of your playstyle in-game. What do you want this character to do, exactly? With the description you've given so far, they could be basically anything that doesn't rely on CHA.

I have this image of her with this tortle shell as a shield so im pretty sure she is sword and board type. shoving with it but adept without it too because on ship there is not a lot of use for battling with something that big. I dont know her current goal as such...the why she isnt sailing with her captain still. Perhaps he forced her to leave the nest to search for answers?, perhaps even by stealth leaving her in port? Perhaps she asked to leave although that goes against her personality so that's a bit thin
Personality Traits:
I face problems head-on. A simple direct solution is the best path to success.
I idolize my captain and constantly refer to that his deeds and example.
Ideals:
Respect. The thing that keeps a ship together is mutual respect between captain and crew. (Good)
Freedom. The sea is freedom--the freedom to go anywhere and do anything. (Chaotic)
Bonds:
I’m loyal to my captain first, everything else second.
There are questions to be answered? Who was i before, what happened to me? I fear asking, i fear the answers but i must have them.
Flaws: I am easily distracted by the promise of information about my past.

So here is where i think i find myself
1. Half Elf Fighter - Archery Arcane Archer 9 / 15+1 / 14 / 13+1 / 13 / 8 Plan to add elven accuracy, tavern brawler or martial adept? at 4. Or maybe a dip in ranger for earlier access to that second fighting style? Although that leaves str light for brawler type scenarios.
2. Tortle Fighter - Dueling Battlemaster 15 +2 / 13 /14 / 8 / 10+1 /12 Plan to add tavern brawler increasing strength at 4, and maybe some rogue for some bonus action attacks at some stage.

[Particle_Man]

I would have done the first as a paladin going for the vengeance oath (sage background) and the second as a champion fighter (sailor background). Interesting how people differ on this.

[KyleG]

I would have done the first as a paladin going for the vengeance oath (sage background) and the second as a champion fighter (sailor background). Interesting how people differ on this.

I think you signature speaks to why not...she isnr out to help anyone else, no honor in how she fights, and likely wants to die killing her final target. She's screwed up and her vengeance focused on the 6 she wants revenge on.
Champion does fit well for the second character and I might be influenced by my own desire to play manuevers