Variant Scroll activation.

[Yael]

I was thinking that in most games (non D&D related) where you find a scroll, you can use it, regardless of the class or character you have. So I thought on having a character be able to activate a scroll without having to use the UMD skill. Now, I also thought that this could make scrolls effective for non-casters only, so what about using the user's CL when casting the scroll (not the CL used for creation, but any non-caster would use the original CL instead.)

Would this be that bad? I know potions are basically self-only scrolls because anyone can use them, but would it be that gamebreaking for having any character cast a scroll without the need of having the UMD skill, or a caster level at all?

[denthor]

Simple rule.

Have the rule tested this way it is used against your character. If you think it works use it. So long as everyone can use a scroll. Then it works. The waiter in a town can cast it against your PC .

[Feantar]

I was thinking that in most games (non D&D related) where you find a scroll, you can use it, regardless of the class or character you have. So I thought on having a character be able to activate a scroll without having to use the UMD skill. Now, I also thought that this could make scrolls effective for non-casters only, so what about using the user's CL when casting the scroll (not the CL used for creation, but any non-caster would use the original CL instead.)

Would this be that bad? I know potions are basically self-only scrolls because anyone can use them, but would it be that gamebreaking for having any character cast a scroll without the need of having the UMD skill, or a caster level at all?

So, you're elevating scrolls to staves, which isn't particularly problematic as staff charges cost less, and potions, which is more problematic as it completely removes the utility of potions. If you're okay with that, it's not gamebreaking from the PC's side. From an NPC viewpoint on the other hand, you're giving NPC classes a huge power boost. For example, in a city where you can buy up to a 2000 gp magic item, any NPC can save for a few years (Check profession income, it's doable) and bind a demon (planar binding, magic circle and dimensional anchor). This is just an example, but it makes the power ceiling collapse. Even in much more minor examples, a commoner can be trusted to have a 1st level scroll, which makes magic much more common - and since all wizards get scribe scroll, unless wizards are unheard of, low level scrolls are common.

[Yael]

Then I guess it would work better in a setting where magic is less common than standard D&D?

[ColorBlindNinja]

So, you're elevating scrolls to staves

I thought you had to UMD staves or be able to cast spells to utilize them?

[Gullintanni]

So, you're elevating scrolls to staves, which isn't particularly problematic as staff charges cost less, and potions, which is more problematic as it completely removes the utility of potions. If you're okay with that, it's not gamebreaking from the PC's side. From an NPC viewpoint on the other hand, you're giving NPC classes a huge power boost. For example, in a city where you can buy up to a 2000 gp magic item, any NPC can save for a few years (Check profession income, it's doable) and bind a demon (planar binding, magic circle and dimensional anchor). This is just an example, but it makes the power ceiling collapse. Even in much more minor examples, a commoner can be trusted to have a 1st level scroll, which makes magic much more common - and since all wizards get scribe scroll, unless wizards are unheard of, low level scrolls are common.

I think a few years of work entitles one to summon a demon -- I think that's probably a fair ratio. The issue is that most commoners are going to lack the knowledge and understanding to combine planar binding, with magic circle and dimensional anchor. There is no spellcasting apprenticeship for non-casters, and spellcraft is not a class skill for any of the NPC classes.

Moreover, special access may be required to access spell scrolls. They're likely found only as dungeon loot, or sold by mage colleges, or by church orders. Any responsible guild is going to have rules about selling dangerous magic to the uninitiated. And NPCs who've just spent all of their income on binding a demon will have no means to protect themselves from potentially vengeful demons once the binding is complete.

The DM has enough realistic justifications to limit NPCs to simply being NPCs even in a world where anyone can use a scroll.

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving mundane classes more options; however, I think a scroll's caster level should just be the scroll's caster level. The idea is that when you're activating a scroll, you're activating someone else's magic, rather than your own. Casters don't need a buff.

[Feantar]

I thought you had to UMD staves or be able to cast spells to utilize them?

Oh, I get where I confused you, I was commenting on the variant rule they suggested for spellcasting classes using their own CL for scrolls, not the part about removing UMD requirements.


I think a few years of work entitles one to summon a demon -- I think that's probably a fair ratio. The issue is that most commoners are going to lack the knowledge and understanding to combine planar binding, with magic circle and dimensional anchor. There is no spellcasting apprenticeship for non-casters, and spellcraft is not a class skill for any of the NPC classes.

Moreover, special access may be required to access spell scrolls. They're likely found only as dungeon loot, or sold by mage colleges, or by church orders. Any responsible guild is going to have rules about selling dangerous magic to the uninitiated. And NPCs who've just spent all of their income on binding a demon will have no means to protect themselves from potentially vengeful demons once the binding is complete.

The DM has enough realistic justifications to limit NPCs to simply being NPCs even in a world where anyone can use a scroll.

I don't think there's anything wrong with giving mundane classes more options; however, I think a scroll's caster level should just be the scroll's caster level. The idea is that when you're activating a scroll, you're activating someone else's magic, rather than your own. Casters don't need a buff.

On the first part, binding an outsider as an NPC is more problematic when you actually don't combine it with magic circle (so the outsider does whatever they want) than when you do. All in all, it would increase their presence in the world.

On the special access part, yes, I suppose. But utility has a tendency to go wide(as in, tend towards increase accessibility) in society. Scrolls are really cheap to produce. Yes, some mages may try to control some parts of the market, but I assume that enough would be tempted by the income possibilities. I might be overestimating this though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Oh, I get where I confused you, I was commenting on the variant rule they suggested for spellcasting classes using their own CL for scrolls, not the part about removing UMD requirements.

Ah, I see. Thanks for clarifying.

[Gullintanni]

On the first part, binding an outsider as an NPC is more problematic when you actually don't combine it with magic circle (so the outsider does whatever they want) than when you do. All in all, it would increase their presence in the world.

On the special access part, yes, I suppose. But utility has a tendency to go wide(as in, tend towards increase accessibility) in society. Scrolls are really cheap to produce. Yes, some mages may try to control some parts of the market, but I assume that enough would be tempted by the income possibilities. I might be overestimating this though.

I figure most unbound outsiders would either kill the summoner and then wreak havoc or travel back to their home plane; thus, summoning would, on a widespread basis, garner a reputation as unproductive at best and lethally dangerous at worst.

As for widespread utility... I don't agree. Hellfire missiles are expensive and mass produced, just like scrolls could be, but their production, use and distribution are strictly controlled by the institutions responsible for governing society at large. Dangerous magic should be treated accordingly by the institutions responsible for their production. Summoning magic won't be available at large to commoners by virtue either of explicit treaties, supply economics wherein most commoners won't actually amass thousands of gold pieces in a life time according to the DMG's description of commoner incomes (and even if they do, black market scrolls would likely be exponentially more expensive), or by jealous hoarding by the elite NPCs who control the means of production.

I don't see why implements of potential mass destruction would be treated any differently in the game world than they are in reality.