Crusader Lockdown Basic Build

[Particle_Man]

I am trying to see if I understand this idea correctly, so am trying out a basic build, Crusader 20, LG, Human, no retraining of feats, and see if this is in the right ball park.

So, here goes:

Feats:

Human bonus feat: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain

1. Combat Reflexes

3. Combat Expertise

6. Improved Trip

9. Stand Still

12. Robilar’s Gambit

15. Defensive Sweep

18. Extra Granted Maneuver

Level 20 Maneuvers (including some low level ones that seem useful for lock-downs):

1. Defensive rebuke

2. Crushing vise

3. White Raven Hammer

4. War Master Charge

5. Strike of Righteous Vitality

6. Mountain Tombstone Strike

7. Earthquake Strike

Useful stances:

In combat: Thicket of Blades

When out of combat: Aura of Perfect Order

Useful magic items: Multiple potions of Enlarge, then the usual suspects (stat boosters, weapon, armour, save boosters, AC boosters)

So is this basically the lockdown build?

[ExLibrisMortis]

That looks to be a perfectly suitable crusader.


If you want to expand a bit, you can add things like City Brawler Wolf Totem barbarian 2 (IUS and ITrip as bonus feats), saving you several feats. If you have Combat Expertise anyway, Dodge and Karmic Strike are nice additions.

[Eldariel]

I would definitely make room for Mage Slayer, and preferably move Extra Granted Maneuver a bit earlier. I'd go with either Improved Trip or Stand Still at first, not both. Having both is a luxury, but you're a feat-starved build so it's not a luxury you have. I'd pick Stand Still first for convenience (doesn't require Combat Expertise), though it does lessen the combo potential a bit. This frees up two feats, which you can use on Extra Granted Maneuver and Mage Slayer earlier. The lategame can be the same though you can take the "+4 to hit" feat if you intend on taking a lot of AoOs (which you do). And yeah, a two-level dip in Barbarian is indeed a significant power increase, saving you stats and feats. Note that lockdown is originally a build category people came up with, when they tried to make use of all those Fighter bonus feats though. So don't try to mimic all the tricks, just pick the best ones: you're not a Fighter so you have to be picky.

As for maneuvers, White Raven Tactics is way too good not to have readied and I do like me Order Forged from Chaos too.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I would definitely make room for Mage Slayer,

How useful is Mage Slayer? I understand with the rest of the lockdown build, the mage can't take a 5 foot step away from them, but they can still cast a Quickened spell without provoking, yes?

[Particle_Man]

As for maneuvers, White Raven Tactics is way too good not to have readied.

That raises a question. How close am I meant to be to my party if I am using a lockdown build? Are they meant to be right next to me (thus benefiting from WRT), or are they meant to be some distance from me (20 feet? more?), behind me as at a relative choke-point (and also safely out of the way of Earthquake Strike)?

Also, don't Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit overlap, rather than stack? I had understood that I would not get two Aoos if someone hits me just because I have both of those feats.

[Kayblis]

You're supposed to stay between your more fragile party members and your enemies. There's no point in locking someone down if they can simply keep killing your friends from their space in their turn. This also means you can flank with other melees and such, you won't be alone in the middle of combat. This can make some AoEs harder to set up if you have many teammates and minions.

KS and RG don't stack because a single action cannot cause more than one AoO to the same person. Attacking is a single action, not divided between "declaring" and "hitting" like your conditions.

[ColorBlindNinja]

You're supposed to stay between your more fragile party members and your enemies.

Now, if I recall, swarms pose a problem for tripping builds because they're immune to being tripped?

[Particle_Man]

Would Stand Still stop a swarm?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Would Stand Still stop a swarm?

I think it will? I'm not 100% certain.

[rrwoods]

KS and RG don't stack because a single action cannot cause more than one AoO to the same person. Attacking is a single action, not divided between "declaring" and "hitting" like your conditions.
This is the opposite of common consensus. Rather than go off topic debating what the right answer is, I’d recommend asking your DM.

[Sleven]

I think it will? I'm not 100% certain.

Yes it does. They're not immune to reflex saves.

Also, you can skip most of the Robilar's, Improved Trip, etc. and go "budget" lockdown with just Stand Still, Combat Reflexes, and Thicket of Blades. This is great because Improved Trip isn't going to work vs everything (and will likely cause you to lose your weapon or get tripped if you're not careful), while the DC for Stand Still is easy enough to boost into the stratosphere. Mage Slayer will also still be great, but tripping isn't really an effective way of locking mages down, nor are crusaders the best at controlling (or killing) them.

The reason people like Karmic Strike is because you can get it significantly earlier than Robilar's Gambit, you don't have to spend any gold on AC (because you want people to hit you) and it synergizes with your natural healing maneuvers, Steely Resolve, and Furious Counterstrike.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes it does. They're not immune to reflex saves.

True enough.


Mage Slayer will also still be great,

I still am not super convinced of Mage Slayer's usefulness, to be honest.

[Sleven]

I still am not super convinced of Mage Slayer's usefulness, to be honest.

Party composition and DM tendencies could come in to play as well. It's not a "must-have" by any stretch of the imagination. But you typically want someone or some things capable of stopping spells available.

It also says more about the ubiquitous and powerful nature of magic in D&D. Having any chance of or ability to stop enemies with spells or spell-likes is typically a worthwhile investment. Lockdown builds place themselves within reach of enemies, who tend to have spell-likes available at tables of higher difficulty. Being able to attack them when attacking is more or less all your build can do is a nice option.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Party composition and DM tendencies could come in to play as well. It's not a "must-have" by any stretch of the imagination. But you typically want someone or some things capable of stopping spells available.

It also says more about the ubiquitous and powerful nature of magic in D&D. Having any chance of or ability to stop enemies with spells or spell-likes is typically a worthwhile investment. Lockdown builds place themselves within reach of enemies, who tend to have spell-likes available at tables of higher difficulty. Being able to attack them when attacking is more or less all your build can do is a nice option.

Fair enough, I guess. I'm not certain I'd bother to get the feat. Maybe if I was picking up Pierce Magical Concealment too, but not just Mage Slayer.

[Eldariel]

How useful is Mage Slayer? I understand with the rest of the lockdown build, the mage can't take a 5 foot step away from them, but they can still cast a Quickened spell without provoking, yes?

Yes, they just can't cast defensively. Which means unless they have a quickened escape ready, they are stuck taking an AoO whenever they try to cast a spell (cf. being able to trivially defensively cast any escape spell like Dimension Door as early as ECL7 to put enough distance between the two of you). Spell-like abilities also provoke unless used defensively so that's an extra use (though many monsters lack the Concentration ranks for reliable defensive casting anyways). Mostly, you're pretty useless vs. spellcasters without it but your threatened area actually matters a bit if you do have it.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yes, they just can't cast defensively. Which means unless they have a quickened escape ready, they are stuck taking an AoO whenever they try to cast a spell (cf. being able to trivially defensively cast any escape spell like Dimension Door as early as ECL7 to put enough distance between the two of you). Spell-like abilities also provoke unless used defensively so that's an extra use (though many monsters lack the Concentration ranks for reliable defensive casting anyways). Mostly, you're pretty useless vs. spellcasters without it but your threatened area actually matters a bit if you do have it.

I hadn't really considered monsters with SLAs, that does make Mage Slayer a lot more useful.

As for spellcasters themselves, I guess it'd depend on optimized they are and what level they are.

[Eldariel]

I hadn't really considered monsters with SLAs, that does make Mage Slayer a lot more useful.

As for spellcasters themselves, I guess it'd depend on optimized they are and what level they are.

Aye, of course. You want it early on because it matters the most when you still matter. Obviously by the time you hit 20, even a terribly built caster will care little about it. At least you can force them to put some resources into staying out of your reach even then, but yes, obviously spellcasters will eclipse you regardless. Still, not every spellcaster is optimised and not every spellcaster is prepared, so do what you can. I definitely think putting resources into beating the ones you can is worthwhile even if it means you'll ultimately be outscaled. Some of the weaker spellcasters like gishes are heavily inconvenienced by a lockdown build with Mage Slayer until they at least get to the Contingency levels, and even there they need some lateral angle of attack to get to you if they plan on using melee (which is generally their shtick).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Aye, of course. You want it early on because it matters the most when you still matter.

Yeah, I think the earliest you could get a quickened teleportation spell is Benign Transposition at level 7 (and that spell requires an ally).


Obviously by the time you hit 20, even a terribly built caster will care little about it. At least you can force them to put some resources into staying out of your reach even then, but yes, obviously spellcasters will eclipse you regardless.

All true, but few games are run at level 20 anyway.


Still, not every spellcaster is optimised and not every spellcaster is prepared, so do what you can. I definitely think putting resources into beating the ones you can is worthwhile even if it means you'll ultimately be outscaled. Some of the weaker spellcasters like gishes are heavily inconvenienced by a lockdown build with Mage Slayer until they at least get to the Contingency levels, and even there they need some lateral angle of attack to get to you if they plan on using melee (which is generally their shtick).

Thank your for clarifying, I think I have a better opinion of Mage Slayer now.

It's also a prerequisite for Pierce Magical Concealment, which I believe is worth a feat.

[Particle_Man]

So a good feat order for an anti-caster "lockdown on a budget" single-classed Crusader build is:

H: Spiked Chain
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Stand Still
6: Mage Slayer

Then at 8 get Thicket of Blades?

9: Pierce Magical Concealment
12: Extra Granted Maneuver
15: ?
18: ?

[ColorBlindNinja]

So a good feat order for an anti-caster "lockdown on a budget" single-classed Crusader build is:

H: Spiked Chain
1: Combat Reflexes
3: Stand Still
6: Mage Slayer

Then at 8 get Thicket of Blades?

9: Pierce Magical Concealment
12: Extra Granted Maneuver
15: ?
18: ?

Maybe Improved Trip for the level 15 feat?

[Eldariel]

Defensive Sweep is not a bad level 15 feat either way. Deft Opportunist is also a fair option and Robilar's is always good. Combat Expertise chains are feat intensive, but Knock-Down would be really strong.

Though getting Extra Granted Maneuver only on 12 sucks. It makes Crusader so much better to play. Could maybe skip EWP and just use Guisarme + Armor Spikes.

[Darrin]

Crusader's capstone is meh, so consider Crusader 18/Fighter 2. Or rather, starting off Crusader 2/Fighter 2/Crusader +16 or Crusader 4/Fighter 2/Crusader +14. This *sorta* evens out your stance progression (at least for Stone Dragon and White Raven... not so much Devoted Spirit).

You might want to consider taking the Duom instead of the Spiked Chain. Duom was reprinted in the Dragon Compendium as a martial polearm with reach, but you can attack adjacent with it. (There are some funky rules for attacking multiple opponents with it, but there's no penalty for attacking a single opponent). This saves you a feat... but unfortunately, the Duom can't be used as a trip weapon (even though it has two backward "hook" blades that usually allow a weapon to trip opponents). If Exoticist Fighter is available (Dragon #310), take that for four free EWPs (Spiked Chain, Dwarven Buckler-Axe, Whip-Dagger, Spinning Sword).

Anyway... feats:

H: EWP Spiked Chain.
1. Stand Still.
3. Extra Granted Maneuver. Fighter Bonus: Combat Reflexes.
4. Fighter Bonus: Mage Slayer.
6. Martial Stance: Thicket of Blades.
9. Supernatural Instincts (Fiendish Codex II)
12. Pierce Magical Concealment. Crusader Bonus: Diehard.
15. Defensive Sweep.
18. Martial Study/Stance.

If you can take two flaws, you could swap the Fighter 2 for Barbarian 2 and get Improved Trip that way (Wolf Totem).