Monk dipping Ranger

[ZorroGames]

BLUF: Item of debate was what order to build such a character.


More off table discussions on MC among the AL players.

I have a Water Genasi figure from Hero Forge that started thlS...

“A monk who dips ranger gains a fighting style, some spells, and likely a hunter ability. The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Hunter’s Mark is a fantastic damage boost on a class with 3-4 attacks a round. The hunter or gloomstalker ability is just more damage. This is a great choice for a 4 level dip, grabbing the precious ASI and avoiding doubling up on extra attack. It is completely void of MADness. Avoid Horizon Walker or Monster Slayer as there is too much bonus action competition.
{snip}
Water Genasi
Kensei 5+/Hunter 4
8, 15, 17, 8, 16, 8

This Kensei uses a longsword made of ice (Shape Water) to slice through it's foes. Horde Breaker scales well with the level 11 Kensei feature to make any weapon a +3 weapon. Hunter's Mark works great with the monk's many attacks”

The longsword of ice is optional...


A:
Monk 1 or 2
Ranger 4
Monk (Kensei) X

B:

Ranger 4
Monk X

C:

Monk 5
Ranger 4
Monk X

Forum input?

[1ring42]

Honestly A would be the best path to go, but if your dm is sane enough to allow revised ranger I'd take a long hard look at beàstmaster especially since the revised beast companion gets it's own initiative and is proficient in armor class based off your proficiency bonus, meaning a +3 by the time you get to ranger 3.

[ZorroGames]

Honestly A would be the best path to go, but if your dm is sane enough to allow revised ranger I'd take a long hard look at beàstmaster especially since the revised beast companion gets it's own initiative and is proficient in armor class based off your proficiency bonus, meaning a +3 by the time you get to ranger 3.

Sigh.

AL setting only in local shop.

[Foxhound438]

probably C so you can get extra attack at 5 like you would normally expect. Stunning strike is also kind of a big deal. If I were to take more than 2 levels of anything on a monk, I'd probably go for the extra d8 once per turn from colossus slayer. It's usually better to increase your damage against one target so you can focus them down and reduce the enemy's numbers faster.

[Rallek25]

If you're using adventure league rules then you can only use 1 thing outside of the PHB. Your character's race would be that one thing and therefore you wouldn't be able to use the other subclasses.

[Man_Over_Game]

If you're using adventure league rules then you can only use 1 thing outside of the PHB. Your character's race would be that one thing and therefore you wouldn't be able to use the other subclasses.

Great catch. The next best option would probably be a Wood Elf.

[Vogie]

Great catch. The next best option would probably be a Wood Elf.

If they want Shape Water, it'd have to be High Elf.

[ZorroGames]

If you're using adventure league rules then you can only use 1 thing outside of the PHB. Your character's race would be that one thing and therefore you wouldn't be able to use the other subclasses.

The build is from PeteNutButters Ultimate Optimizers Multiclassing Guide which is clearly not AL friendly in some builds. Kensei would need to be changed. The original discussion blithely ignored that. The General course of discussion (Monk dipping Ranger) still is valid.

[ZorroGames]

If they want Shape Water, it'd have to be High Elf.

From D&D beyond.

Water Genasi

The lapping of waves, the spray of sea foam on the wind, the ocean depths—all of these things call to your heart. You wander freely and take pride in your independence, though others might consider you selfish.

Most water genasi look as if they just finished bathing, with beads of moisture collecting on their skin and hair. They smell of fresh rain and clean water. Blue or green skin is common, and most have somewhat overlarge eyes, blue-black in color. A water genasi’s hair might float freely, swaying and waving as if underwater. Some have voices with undertones reminiscent of whale song or trickling streams.

Ability Score Increase
Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Acid Resistance
You have resistance to acid damage.
Amphibious
You can breathe air and water.
Swim
You have a swimming speed of 30 feet.
Call to the Wave
You know the shape water cantrip. When you reach 3rd level, you can cast the create or destroy water spell as a 2nd-level spell once with this trait, and you regain the ability to cast it this way when you finish a long rest. Constitution is your spellcasting ability for these spells.

[ZorroGames]

Great catch. The next best option would probably be a Wood Elf.

The discussion was based on a Water 💦 Genasi figure so no.

[Man_Over_Game]

The discussion was based on a Water �� Genasi figure so no.

Kensei is in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Water Genasi is in the Elemental Evil article.

PHB + 1 requirements of Adventure League means you cannot be a Water Genasi and use options outside of the Water Genasi source and the Player's Handbook, so you'd no longer be able to play Kensei. There are no races available in Xanathar's, so the only other races available are in the Player's Handbook, and the closest fitting race is the Wood Elf/High Elf.

[ZorroGames]

Kensei is in Xanathar's Guide to Everything.

Water Genasi is in the Elemental Evil article.

PHB + 1 requirements of Adventure League means you cannot be a Water Genasi and use options outside of the Water Genasi source and the Player's Handbook, so you'd no longer be able to play Kensei. There are no races available in Xanathar's, so the only other races available are in the Player's Handbook, and the closest fitting race is the Wood Elf/High Elf.

No, I use a PHB subclass Monk. This discussion I mentioned was based on using the Water Genasi figure we were looking at so changing races defeats the point of using the figure. Obviously Kensei is out, probably would be best as a Water Genasi OH Monk/Hunter Ranger?

[1ring42]

Honestly you're better dipping rogue than PHB ranger.

[Man_Over_Game]

No, I use a PHB subclass Monk. This discussion I mentioned was based on using the Water Genasi figure we were looking at so changing races defeats the point of using the figure. Obviously Kensei is out, probably would be best as a Water Genasi OH Monk/Hunter Ranger?

That'd be what I'd do. With your moderate Wisdom and defensive stats, you can really afford to be in melee combat for a while and land some solid OH-empowered hits off and be a solid boss slayer.

Shadow Monk could also work well, if your team really lacks stealth or mobility.


Honestly you're better dipping rogue than PHB ranger.

Rogue doesn't provide much for the unarmed strikes. The Ranger aspect is likely mostly to grab Hunter's Mark more than anything else.

[1ring42]

Depends on whether the dm rolls with letter of the law vs spirit of the law in regards to sneak and they could get hunters mark from magic initiate.

[Vekon]

Depends on whether the dm rolls with letter of the law vs spirit of the law in regards to sneak and they could get hunters mark from magic initiate.

You can't use magic initiate to grab hunters mark. The feat is limited to grabbing spells from full caster classes, and the spell is only on the Ranger list.

They could, however, grab hex.

[Sorlock Master]

Option D

Race: Wood Elf
Ranger (Gloom Stalker) 4
Monk (Kensei) 5+

[Dark Schneider]

Honestly you're better dipping rogue than PHB ranger.
That's specially true for the Shadow Monk. Get an extra skill, Expertise, Thieves' Tools, Sneak Attack (not much but OK). With only 1 level of Rogue the Shadow Monk get many advantages. Can up to 3 levels of Assassin to get critical to all the attacks (and can be many) on surprise and an extra d6 to Sneak Attack.

[Citan]

BLUF: Item of debate was what order to build such a character.


More off table discussions on MC among the AL players.

I have a Water Genasi figure from Hero Forge that started thlS...

“A monk who dips ranger gains a fighting style, some spells, and likely a hunter ability. The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Hunter’s Mark is a fantastic damage boost on a class with 3-4 attacks a round. The hunter or gloomstalker ability is just more damage. This is a great choice for a 4 level dip, grabbing the precious ASI and avoiding doubling up on extra attack. It is completely void of MADness. Avoid Horizon Walker or Monster Slayer as there is too much bonus action competition.
{snip}
Water Genasi
Kensei 5+/Hunter 4
8, 15, 17, 8, 16, 8

This Kensei uses a longsword made of ice (Shape Water) to slice through it's foes. Horde Breaker scales well with the level 11 Kensei feature to make any weapon a +3 weapon. Hunter's Mark works great with the monk's many attacks”

The longsword of ice is optional...


A:
Monk 1 or 2
Ranger 4
Monk (Kensei) X

B:

Ranger 4
Monk X

C:

Monk 5
Ranger 4
Monk X

Forum input?


No, I use a PHB subclass Monk. This discussion I mentioned was based on using the Water Genasi figure we were looking at so changing races defeats the point of using the figure. Obviously Kensei is out, probably would be best as a Water Genasi OH Monk/Hunter Ranger?
Hi all Hi Zorro it has been some time. :)

So, first, my opinion disregarding the AL legality question.
If I just had to choose between A, B and C, it would probably be C, simply makes more sense to me since you want to be mainly a Monk.

I'd suggest those alternatives though.
D. Monk 2 -> Ranger 2 -> Monk 7-11 -> Ranger 4 -> Monk finish. Idea here being that, yeah, you delay Extra Attack by a significant amount of time, but you also get Zephyr's Strike and Hunter's Mark which are helpful in toughest fights.
E. Monk 1 -> Ranger 5 -> Monk X. Extra Attack is doubled, but you get 2nd level spells, which can help in various ways (just Pass Without Trace and Healing Spirit make it worth unless you have another one in party with PWT and another one with decent healing). Obviously big downside is that you play as a "Ranger with better defense and mobility" until you get Stunning Strike. If SS was a core part of your concept, forget that.

Now if you want to play a Kensei with Shape Water cantrip, the easiest is either start Variant Human and grab Magic Initiate: Druid (added benefit: you get Shillelagh which synergizes well)...
Or simply pick Magic Initiate feat as your first ASI.
Or simply grab one level of Druid (which has several other merits too, especially if you want to use Ranger spells, it's a quick boost to number of 1st level spells per day).

Or, if the important part is being a Water Genasi, either go Shadow and focus on your weapon attacks with DEX, or go 4E for the fluffy Water Whip (and other perks, especially if DM would allow refluff of Fangs of Fire Snake as Ice Snake). Open Hand is a decent choice only on the cumulative conditions...
1) You'll focus on WIS (which means lower attack rate or Shillelagh which would defeat the ice sword idea)
2) You won't use repetitive spells like Hunter's Mark or only against tough enemies (in order to keep bonus action competition low)
3) You will get Monk high ASAP.
Because only worth of Open Hand is the added effect on Flurry of Blows, which is dependent on WIS and costs Ki.

[djreynolds]

I would still take archery style, +2 to hit with a bow or crossbow is huge. Coupled with kensai +3 bonus makes sharpshooter real easy to use

[Citan]

I would still take archery style, +2 to hit with a bow or crossbow is huge. Coupled with kensai +3 bonus makes sharpshooter real easy to use
+1.

Reason why the best archer is probably a fluff-wreck -and possibly glass cannon- build mixing Archery, Kensei, Devotion's Sacred Weapon and Magic/Elemental Weapon from whatever source: DEX + 2 + 3 + CHA + 2 + proficiency should easily end around +18, conservatively, and if gone Hexblade for Elemental Weapon you can also bond with the longbow to use CHA instead and get another +1. Fortunately, only Improved Pact Weapon cares about weapon being already magical or not, and the +1 bonus it provides otherwise actually does not make weapon magical by RAW, so you can still use Elemental Weapon on it XD.
So considering that optimal choice, and disregarding action economy problem (this optimal to-hit implies you had time to prepare or the enemy is that hard to hit that spending possibly several turns to set up is still the best shot if I may say so)... 5+2+3+5+2+1+6 = 24 bonus to hit.
This is stupidly overkill against regular enemies (but has the merit of greatly speedying up fights, just check if you rolled a 1 or not basically XD) but also means you can safely kill most dangerous creatures provided some help to kite or guard if they engage straight after you start pinning them from 400+ feet away. ^^

And that same effective range of engagement means that you should most of the time be the one deciding when to start the fight, so you can afford to spend one or two turns preparing if your timing was not perfect, unless that enemy has very high threatening range (dragon, some casters).

[ZorroGames]

Depends on whether the dm rolls with letter of the law vs spirit of the law in regards to sneak and they could get hunters mark from magic initiate.

AL DMs locally are very RAW oriented.

[ZorroGames]

Option D

Race: Wood Elf
Ranger (Gloom Stalker) 4
Monk (Kensei) 5+

Remember the discussion was based on using a Water Genasi figure I had custom made. So no. No racial changing.

[ZorroGames]

Hi all Hi Zorro it has been some time. :)

So, first, my opinion disregarding the AL legality question.
If I just had to choose between A, B and C, it would probably be C, simply makes more sense to me since you want to be mainly a Monk.

I'd suggest those alternatives though.
D. Monk 2 -> Ranger 2 -> Monk 7-11 -> Ranger 4 -> Monk finish. Idea here being that, yeah, you delay Extra Attack by a significant amount of time, but you also get Zephyr's Strike and Hunter's Mark which are helpful in toughest fights.
E. Monk 1 -> Ranger 5 -> Monk X. Extra Attack is doubled, but you get 2nd level spells, which can help in various ways (just Pass Without Trace and Healing Spirit make it worth unless you have another one in party with PWT and another one with decent healing). Obviously big downside is that you play as a "Ranger with better defense and mobility" until you get Stunning Strike. If SS was a core part of your concept, forget that.

Now if you want to play a Kensei with Shape Water cantrip, the easiest is either start Variant Human and grab Magic Initiate: Druid (added benefit: you get Shillelagh which synergizes well)...
Or simply pick Magic Initiate feat as your first ASI.
Or simply grab one level of Druid (which has several other merits too, especially if you want to use Ranger spells, it's a quick boost to number of 1st level spells per day).

Or, if the important part is being a Water Genasi, either go Shadow and focus on your weapon attacks with DEX, or go 4E for the fluffy Water Whip (and other perks, especially if DM would allow refluff of Fangs of Fire Snake as Ice Snake). Open Hand is a decent choice only on the cumulative conditions...
1) You'll focus on WIS (which means lower attack rate or Shillelagh which would defeat the ice sword idea)
2) You won't use repetitive spells like Hunter's Mark or only against tough enemies (in order to keep bonus action competition low)
3) You will get Monk high ASAP.
Because only worth of Open Hand is the added effect on Flurry of Blows, which is dependent on WIS and costs Ki.

Thank you, nice useful analysis.

Not 100% sure where this figure’s actual play direction will go.

The figure was a “spell effect” in one hand and a staff (Hero Forge’s Bo stick) in the other and wearing robes.

It was part of an order with Air Genasi and Fire Genasi (my Earth Genasi made 11th so did not order another one.)

BTW, I hate Hero Forge’s Maul on my Earth Genasi. OMG steroid overdose! Next time I order a E. G. figure with their warpick (one side hammer face and one side pick face) and just declare it a pick backed Maul.

[ZorroGames]

I would still take archery style, +2 to hit with a bow or crossbow is huge. Coupled with kensai +3 bonus makes sharpshooter real easy to use

Please see following note on how the figure that started this discussion off forum is equipped.

But there is frequently a low (non existent sometimes) number of melee types at our AL tables. Very good point otherwise.

[ZorroGames]

@Citan,

Hi. Yes, been awhile, which probably makes Roland St. Jude’s life easier. 🤭. JK.

Two words. Real Life.

Most of my time rEcently has been moving a friend out of a snake pit of “assisted living” facility to his own apartment due to his psychotropic drugs being not given as they should (decades long unbroken string of compliance until then,) 👿.

And my gaming has been split between DM’ing AL, my long neglected war game friends, and adjusting to my wife also being retired full time. Her Social Security is a lot less than her RN (40+ years) pay was. Life is all about adjusting to changes.

It has been tough to set aside D&D playing but when you see 1 DM and 12+ tier 1 players, up to 4 of them brand new, it is hard to say, “No.”. Hopefully that is now less frequent.

Okay, enough pity party verbiage. Back on topic.

[djreynolds]

BLUF: Item of debate was what order to build such a character.


More off table discussions on MC among the AL players.

I have a Water Genasi figure from Hero Forge that started thlS...

“A monk who dips ranger gains a fighting style, some spells, and likely a hunter ability. The fighting stye is probably duelist on a traditional monk. Hunter’s Mark is a fantastic damage boost on a class with 3-4 attacks a round. The hunter or gloomstalker ability is just more damage. This is a great choice for a 4 level dip, grabbing the precious ASI and avoiding doubling up on extra attack. It is completely void of MADness. Avoid Horizon Walker or Monster Slayer as there is too much bonus action competition.
{snip}
Water Genasi
Kensei 5+/Hunter 4
8, 15, 17, 8, 16, 8

This Kensei uses a longsword made of ice (Shape Water) to slice through it's foes. Horde Breaker scales well with the level 11 Kensei feature to make any weapon a +3 weapon. Hunter's Mark works great with the monk's many attacks”

The longsword of ice is optional...


A:
Monk 1 or 2
Ranger 4
Monk (Kensei) X

B:

Ranger 4
Monk X

C:

Monk 5
Ranger 4
Monk X

Forum input?

I like the build, it's a solid concept.

Fighter might be a better choice.

Both are short rest dependent.

Also if you are using a long sword two handed, you qualify for great weapon fighting, and can reroll 1s and 2s. Staff and spear also qualify.

You can always grab magic initiate for hex, or even 1 level of war cleric for divine favor.

These are all possibilities.

Horde breaker is excellent, but so are superiority dice.

It's a very cool build, I'd like see how it progresses

[Sigreid]

Buddy of mine is playing a ranger/kensi monk in CoS. Started ranger and leaning heavier into monk. He's doing very well functioning as our light infantry/skirmisher in a party with a life cleric, arcane archer and evoker wizard.

[Thurmas]

I have always wanted to play a Shadow Monk 6, Hunter Ranger 4, Monk X. Tons of mobility, an extra attack from horde breaker in the right circumstances, and several uses of hunters mark to basically double your dice damage against single targets. Great hit and run character.

[animewatcha]

I noticed Kensei being mentioned. Did WOTC or Sage or whomever say yay or nay in regards to the Kensai Weapon being unarmed strike? So you could spend 3 ki for plus 3 to hit and damage for unarmed strikes.

[Dark Schneider]

Shadow Monk (6) + Assassin (3) + Gloom Stalker (3) + Monk (X) would be great. But requires a good level as dipping with 2 instead 1.
Get all the attacks a monk can do with flurry of blows, hidding capabilites of shadow monk for surprise foes (+10 Stealth with Pass without Trace), extra base movement, add gloom stalker initiative bonus, another 10 extra movement, the extra attack and 1d8 extra damage, add Assassin surprise bonus (all attacks with advantage + all criticals), Sneak Attack, and Expertise to Stealth. Throw all that damage dice doubled. And after that, you have a good battler, good hidding, moving, and many things.

Anyway if you want an useful shadow monk I'd get 1 lvl of Rogue no much later after lvl 6 to get the extra skill and thieves' tools (if you don't have yet), Sneak Attack, and Expertise.

[Man_Over_Game]

PSA, he is stuck with PHB Classes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The player is specifically wanting to play an Adventure League legal Water Genasi, no exceptions. With Adventure League rules, you get the Player's Handbook + 1 other source to use for your character building, and the Water Genasi's source has no included classes. This means the only available classes are within the PHB, and so Kensei and other options are unavailable.

[Vogie]

[SIZE=7]The player is specifically wanting to play an Adventure League legal Water Genasi, no exceptions. With Adventure League rules, you get the Player's Handbook + 1 other source to use for your character building, and the Water Genasi's source has no included classes. This means the only available classes are within the PHB, and so Kensei and other options are unavailable.

Okay, then. The best thing to do is

The ice sword is a short sword. As you level up, it'll eventually get to longsword levels.

You'd use Hunter Ranger for Horde Breaker or Colossus Slayer for the 3-4 level dip.

I would use Shadow Monk rather than Open Hand.




Alternatively, as I mentioned before, be Gloomstalker/Kensai, and then use the High Elf stats (picking up Shape Water with the racial ability), but one who happens to be blue and identifies as a Water Genasi in every way that matters. You'll have +1 Dex and +1 Int instead of +2 Con and +1 Wis, and Darkvision / Fey Ancestry instead of Amphibious / Acid Resistance / Swim speed.

[ZorroGames]

PSA, he is stuck with PHB Classes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The player is specifically wanting to play an Adventure League legal Water Genasi, no exceptions. With Adventure League rules, you get the Player's Handbook + 1 other source to use for your character building, and the Water Genasi's source has no included classes. This means the only available classes are within the PHB, and so Kensei and other options are unavailable.

Yes, I have agreed that if the figure determines the discussion of a Build than the Water Genasi must use PHB classes.