On WIS score, outlook and alignment

[rbetieh]

So, I've been wondering if there is some definitive link between a character's WIS stat score, how it links to their general outlook and if it ties to their alignment... Since we have a new high-Wis character who has just defined their outlook for us, I thought it might be a good time to share what I have so far.

First, this comes up because a certain characters outlook (and possibly alignment) is a direct result of his LOW Wisdom:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html

- what is interesting here is a very sudden jump in Wisdom causes outlook to shift dramatically. Most of the other characters are assumed to be gaining wisdom, but at a very gradual rate. I wonder if there would be an outlook shift to the high-wisdom characters if they similarly had their minds expanded, or perhaps there are diminishing returns on how Wisdom affects personal outlooks as Wisdom increases?

Some of the other High Wis characters plus outlook defining moments for each:

Roy - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html - Went through a learning curve earlier and got admonished for it in Celestia but arrived at an outlook of, "if there is something I can do about this problem, then I have a duty to do something about it". He has, since this point, held fast to this idea. But we give him the ability to nuance his outlook as needed, and we know he is trying to be good (on the LG end).

Greyview (because I kind of sort of remember Worgs having higer than 10 Wis although I dont know how to navigate SRD so throw it out if wrong) - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1037.html - Clearly defined outlook of "Go along with it, live your best life, because you might die at any moment" super nihilistic, but as far as we know, he allows no space for nuance in this outlook. Might be because he is still an animal and may rely more on automatics such as instinct than the bi-peds do? I have no idea what the default alignment for Worg is, probably some Evil, but I don't know if we can say for certain that he is default alignment?

Durkon - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html - He has gone through some growth as of late, but the last two panels show that he essentially as he was defined originally. Tried to do what he thought was his duty and what he thought another dutiful dwarf might want and found out the hard way that not everyone is so concerned with duty. His first argument from his raise dead is again an argument aligned more with duty (Ye Dinnae haf tha "right"...) than general goodness (next panel). It would seem that through all that he has gone through, Durkon's outlook is not damaged. He is rather resolute in his beliefs, and definitely not budging on his Alignment (LG)

Seems like Hilgya is just as resolute - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1150.html - plenty on her in other threads on alignment so I wont push that one here. I find it interesting that in two occasions already when someone has expressed emotion for the loss of life (chaos animal summons, and Durkon) her first word is "Relax". She has absolute confidence is her (or maybe Lokis) power to solve any problem, much like Varsuuvius had until Xykon taught him otherwise. I personally don't see it as very Wise to act this way, but a cleric has to have a high wisdom so her general outlook must be Wise for her alignment.... maybe someone here has a good explanation of how her outlook is wise? Or maybe Wisdom and outlook arent linked?

In that Vein - the Exarch - I was going to leave him out because I considered both him and Vampire Durkon nascent creatures who are relying on the original soul (instead of their own experiences) to form their Wisdom score. But I leave the point here in case someone wants to debate it....

Now Redcloak - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html - this is an interesting case because I would say he is "Most likely to Improve" when it comes to his outlook. He realizes that he has a duty to Goblinkind, not just the Globin race in this comic. He also tends to learn better ways to handle Xykon. And the arc is shaping up to having to have his outlook change for the good of the world. My major question here is will the alignment change or will he still be an Evil character with a changed outlook?

I saved Malack - http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0875.html for last because he is about as un-budging as it gets. "Only fools like Nale resist" is very telling of both him and Nale. I would venture an Owls wisdom applied to Nale would affect him similarly to Belkar, outlook generally shifted in some major way. Although Malack seems to think it would be on the "Duty to Self vs Duty to Higher Power" axis (which I always thought was a Law vs Chaos argument, but Nale is Lawful so go figure).


These are my highlighted guys, feel free to add in more (Leeky worth adding?).

My takeaway:

It seems to me that the characters were constructed such that Alignment was picked first, then an outlook was applied to match the alignment. Wisdom appears on the most part to cement the outlook as opposed to allow the character to "learn and change", although sudden jumps in Wisdom do affect outlooks (kind of like some psychotropic drug) at least in low-wisdom characters. It seems like characters with high wisdom use teachable moments more to cement their own outlooks (confirmation bias) than to change the outlooks. Haley stands out as an example of a character that shouldn't have a very high Wisdom but changed outlooks due to her teachable moments. The big counter-example is Redcloak who by nature of the narrative must shift his outlook and maybe his alignment.

But... does this really make sense? It feels counter-intuitive to me that wisdom increases resoluteness and allows a person to dig in their heels on their own beliefs instead of learning new things and compromising their beliefs going forward. What am I missing here?

[Morty]

What you're missing here is that the D&D wisdom attribute doesn't actually mean or represent anything in particular. Trying to map it into any kind of consistent trait is going to result in confusion.

[The Pilgrim]

Definition of Wisdom from the 3.5 Rules:

Wisdom describes a character’s willpower, common sense, perception, and intuition. While Intelligence represents one’s ability to analyze information, Wisdom represents being in tune with and aware of one’s surroundings.

There is no mechanic in D&D relating WIS to Alignment. Note that a person can have common sense and be still Evil.

Belkar shifting alignment due to getting his WIS score increased by Owl's Wisdom was a joke of the early times when OOTS was a joke-of-the-day webcomic.

In any case, while it could be argued that, in Belkar's case, his psycopathic nature was in part the product of low wisdom, and his journey towards turning a less bitter leaf began when he adquired some, that doesn't means that having low Wisdom is the source of all Evil. Elan has very low Wisdom too, and is Good.

[RatElemental]

What you're missing here is that the D&D wisdom attribute doesn't actually mean or represent anything in particular. Trying to map it into any kind of consistent trait is going to result in confusion.

Not entirely true, wisdom does map to awareness of one's surroundings. If a creature has any level of awareness at all, it has at least 1 wisdom, which goes hand in hand with being able to tell the difference between itself and things that are not itself (at least 1 charisma) to allow a creature to qualify as actually being a creature at all.

[Elvensilver]

I wouldn't judge any undead in this thread. Undead like Malack and Durkula where subjected to a negative particle wave and are therefore shaped in a way that is unchangeable - not like any humanoids, they don't come with predetermined alignments.

Wisdom in D&D and related systems doesn't determine alignments - as seen by the wide cast of both good and evil characters with widely differnt wisdom scores-
but it is vital for will-saving throws, which could be meant as: ability to resist mental change. Thus Hilgya is absolutly set in her evil ways,while Durkon her mirror is absolutly set in his good ways : both are to wise to be easily swayed. So for a person with high wisdom most character developments will be genuine, powered from within - as with Redcloak. Of course, persons with less wisdom might still change, but they are more inclined to doubt themselves or trustworthy others (looking at you, Haley).

And finally: Belkar. His change for the better after being hit by owl's wisdom is mostly a joke, and from all the orders members we know the least of his thoughs and feelings, I thing the Giant once said to make purely comedy, he couldn't have a tragic past. But while Belkar is mostly comedy, he too changed since Azure city, becoming less uncaring. But his changes were mostly unwillingly http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1115.html and after being influenced by other persons (Lord Shojo, Durkon).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wouldn't judge any undead in this thread. Undead like Malack and Durkula where subjected to a negative particle wave and are therefore shaped in a way that is unchangeable - not like any humanoids, they don't come with predetermined alignments.

They still have free will. They could choose to not be Evil, and indeed the author has said that there might have been good vampires elsewhere in OotS - just that none would show up because he has no use for them in the narrative.

Grey Wolf

[Morty]

Not entirely true, wisdom does map to awareness of one's surroundings. If a creature has any level of awareness at all, it has at least 1 wisdom, which goes hand in hand with being able to tell the difference between itself and things that are not itself (at least 1 charisma) to allow a creature to qualify as actually being a creature at all.

Which would be fine if it was called Perception or Wits, but it also covers willpower, knowledge of religion, knowledge of medicine and divine magic, among other things. None of which have much to do with what we normally associate with the word "wisdom", either.

[MartianInvader]

All the stats in D&D represent multiple things. Someone with high CHA might be good-looking or a persuasive speaker, someone with high DEX might be really flexible or have great hand-eye coordination. So I think for WIS it makes sense for it to be expressed differently for different characters - Durkon's wisdom is about seeing and bringing out the best in people, while Hilgya's wisdom is more about practical street smarts.

For Belkar, my headcannon is that way (way, way) deep down inside, there's a jolly CG halfling that just wants to cook, play with animals, and make love all day. But that core has been buried deep (deep, deep) beneath layers of anger and hatred that started building up when he was ostracized as a child and kept building. His boosted wisdom didn't so much change his alignment as it allowed him to access that core part of himself. It's the same thing he's slowly been learning to do over the past couple arcs.

[factotum]

It stands to reason that making massive changes to your mental stats (Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma) ought to have some effect on your personality, but there's absolutely nothing in D&D RAW saying that it does--it's just up to the player to roleplay the change effectively. (Quite how an average human is supposed to roleplay a character with genius-level intellect is left as an exercise for the reader).

[RatElemental]

Which would be fine if it was called Perception or Wits, but it also covers willpower, knowledge of religion, knowledge of medicine and divine magic, among other things. None of which have much to do with what we normally associate with the word "wisdom", either.

Knowledge (Religion) is int based, and there are divine casters who use other casting stats (the comic's very own Veldrina being an example: Favored Souls use charisma). You are correct about it governing the heal skill and applying to will saves, though, and it's also what all normal jobs depend on.

Spot, Listen, Survival and Sense motive all make sense from the "perceptiveness" angle though.

[Reddish Mage]

I think there are plenty of ways you will be disappointed by OOTS if you think of attribute scores determining personality traits, no less alignment!

We have the one joke comic of Belkar completely changing his outlook on life by having "Owl's Wisdom" but there's plenty of things to suggest a high WIS score is completely compatible with a bad outlook on life and being naive, or even being fooled by obvious ruses.

Durkon tricked the vampire despite the vampire having a superior WIS score. A score that even allows for bonuses on checks to detect deception.

Meanwhile, Durkon has always been very naive and easily taken advantage of. A trait that also seems to contrast to high WIS.

Hilgya's idea that her child is safest strapped to her chest and not...just about anywhere else, seems like the sort of poor parental judgment that a high WIS score is incompatible with. That is hardly the first dumb idea Hilgya seems to have had though.

Other people with decent to high Wisdom and high Intelligence is Tsukiko and she got killed after naively assuming that Red Cloak didn't have his own agenda involving using Xykon...after confronting him with evidence that...he did in fact have his own agenda and was just using Xykon.

There are plenty of other examples. Miko's outlook and actions don't seem compatible with a high wisdom....but she has the minimum required to use her spells at least.

Basically, while in D&D there is language that ties personality to attributes, and even plenty of times in OOTS where they have done so (the Belkar example, when Elan claimed he wanted to be a Cleric of Banjo or take a level in Wizard....) there are also plenty of times when that expectation just doesn't work.

[RaveDave92084]

In the context of the D&D and OOTS framework, wisdom works more towards a strength of mind, the decisions of personality and character have already been made and more deeply entrenched and less likely to change the higher the score.

As we see in Durkon's life, from his interactions with the vampire, Durkon's decisions about who he was, and the seeing the consequences of those decisions, has made him more resistant to change.

This is how I see the "Wisdom" stat being used, since comic 100.

High wisdom doesn't, by itself, mean you will tend towards "Law" or "Chaos" or even between "Good" and "Evil". Only that your decisions and life choices are more firmly ingrained into your personality.

In this context, high wisdom people can change periphery habits and character attributes easiest, see comic 1151, but core character and personality changes will border on impossible.

This is how I see wisdom being used in this comic, barring those instances of "Rule of Funny" or "Rule of Drama".

[rbetieh]

In the context of the D&D and OOTS framework, wisdom works more towards a strength of mind, the decisions of personality and character have already been made and more deeply entrenched and less likely to change the higher the score.

As we see in Durkon's life, from his interactions with the vampire, Durkon's decisions about who he was, and the seeing the consequences of those decisions, has made him more resistant to change.

This is how I see the "Wisdom" stat being used, since comic 100.

High wisdom doesn't, by itself, mean you will tend towards "Law" or "Chaos" or even between "Good" and "Evil". Only that your decisions and life choices are more firmly ingrained into your personality.

In this context, high wisdom people can change periphery habits and character attributes easiest, see comic 1151, but core character and personality changes will border on impossible.

This is how I see wisdom being used in this comic, barring those instances of "Rule of Funny" or "Rule of Drama".

Kind of where I was going. From a character construction point, Alignment was picked well before Outlook, but it seems as though high-Wis means "Less likely to change his mind about something that is central to his world-view" or in other words, the higher the wisdom, the less likely your outlook will change, and the less possible it is to go from Evil outlook to Neutral outlook....which is really step 1 for switching alignment. Its like Wise = Stubborn(ish) for some reason.

[Daefos]

Kind of where I was going. From a character construction point, Alignment was picked well before Outlook, but it seems as though high-Wis means "Less likely to change his mind about something that is central to his world-view" or in other words, the higher the wisdom, the less likely your outlook will change, and the less possible it is to go from Evil outlook to Neutral outlook....which is really step 1 for switching alignment. Its like Wise = Stubborn(ish) for some reason.

It could also be that a higher Wisdom doesn’t indicate that you’re stubborn, just that new information doesn’t necessarily change your outlook on things. Elan is easily swayed from a lot of his ideas because he doesn’t think things through and it’s not hard to come up with something he’s overlooked. By contrast, Durkon is much more steady because he’s either already considered and rejected whatever viewpoint is being presented to him, or is able to adapt his worldview to accommodate it without changing it very much.

Wisdom represents awareness, including self-awareness. A high Wisdom character might seem set in their ways, but it seems wrong to say it’s because they’re stubborn; they’ve just figured their life out to a higher degree, and consequently need stronger reasons to change their ways.

[RaveDave92084]

It could also be that a higher Wisdom doesn’t indicate that you’re stubborn, just that new information doesn’t necessarily change your outlook on things. Elan is easily swayed from a lot of his ideas because he doesn’t think things through and it’s not hard to come up with something he’s overlooked. By contrast, Durkon is much more steady because he’s either already considered and rejected whatever viewpoint is being presented to him, or is able to adapt his worldview to accommodate it without changing it very much.

Wisdom represents awareness, including self-awareness. A high Wisdom character might seem set in their ways, but it seems wrong to say it’s because they’re stubborn; they’ve just figured their life out to a higher degree, and consequently need stronger reasons to change their ways.

A bit late to reply, I agree.

Changes in alignment for high Wisdom folks are slower, and have a significantly higher bar to change.