Build Review Swash Bard Champ 4/5/11 Help

[Starman973]

Okay I know I am not Min/maxing the character as best I can. But I thought I'd still get some input. So I'm not going to tell you what I picked, but why I picked it and why the clearly best options were not chosen.
I went the the build going 4 Swashbuckler, 5 College of Swords Bard and 11 Champion fighter.
This way I'm still getting three attacks because of the fighter, still recover inspiration dice on the short rest as a bard. and still pick up the Rogue's ASI.
For race I picked Lightfoot Halfling. I know Half-Elf is better, and gets me more skills, but I don't want to overshadow other players and leave some area for them to show skill, and no I don't know what any other players will be, but I can assume they will be Medium in size so I can hide behind them, and Lucky is such a boon.
Now the build itself focus on Dex Con and Charisma. Charisma will be maxed out in the end, but Dex only needs to hit 16, while any positive number is fine in Con same said for Wisdom, while I know str and int I just don't want a negative modifier.
while going over the backgrounds I realized something, if I picked a background that had Thieves tools as proficiency then I could choose a different tool set as per page 126 in the player's book. Like a poisoner's kit. now I can't use a background from the league, it has to be in a book. so that limits me to 4 backgrounds. Spy, Criminal, Urban Bounty Hunter, and Urchin. Now I recently done Urchin and Bounty hunter so of the remaining, Spy and Criminal. I liked the idea of being a spy more than a criminal, but basically they are the same. Now often we dice roll out stuff, but for theory crafting a character I use point buy to figure it out.
Str 10
Dex 12 +2 =14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 15 +1 =16
Since I get Deception and stealth to start
I continue the build with Acrobatics, Intim, Perception, Performance (after I will be a bard Later)
Expertise into Stealth and Deception ( I am a Criminal or spy after all)
Stay Rogue till level 4 going swashbuckler, and upping Charisma for the ASI.
Then go Bard for 5-9, My Charisma is High enough, Take Persuasion so I can now be a charmer
Take College of swords, Not sure which I'll take for hitting this expertise, maybe acrobatics and perception. Just spitballing here.
Take Dueling
Raise Dex+2 as ASI
the Fifth level of Bard is for the ability to regain inspiration dice on a short rest, the idea for the dice is for the college of swords defensive flourish which allows me an extra D8 to my AC, which I am planning for Medium armor, eventually half plate which gives me 15 AC +2 from Dex +2 from Shield, without magic items. I'll improve this a touch more later.
The remaining 11 levels is all Champion fighter. Take defense as Fighter which at level 12 means I'm now at 20 AC which for a rogue bard, is good.
Get second wind, and action surge, go champion for the later crit increase take my last ASI for Wisdom Maxing it out.
I will be honest, I'm not married to the Champion idea, but I'm having a hard time thinking any of the other ones would work any better.
This means any other ASI can be merits. and that is as much as I've figured out. I was thinking Sheild Master to help with Dex saves, but, again, let's leave some room for everyone else to share an idea here. Well Let me know community, what do you think/.

[bid]

while going over the backgrounds I realized something, if I picked a background that had Thieves tools as proficiency then I could choose a different tool set as per page 126 in the player's book. Like a poisoner's kit. now I can't use a background from the league, it has to be in a book. so that limits me to 4 backgrounds. Spy, Criminal, Urban Bounty Hunter, and Urchin. Now I recently done Urchin and Bounty hunter so of the remaining, Spy and Criminal.
You might want to read p125 again, specifically:
- "The sample background..."
- "Customizing a background"

You can pick the background feature you want, add any 2 skills and 2 more tools/languages.

[CTurbo]

Interesting concept. I would most certainly put more emphasis on dex though but that's just me. I don't see any reason not to max it out by then end.

Battle Master kinda fits the theme better than champion too. You'll have the Cha for the Rally maneuver and Riposte and Parry fit your concept too.

You're going to struggle a little through the lower-mid levels and then probably again in the lower teens.

[Citan]

Okay I know I am not Min/maxing the character as best I can. But I thought I'd still get some input. So I'm not going to tell you what I picked, but why I picked it and why the clearly best options were not chosen.
I went the the build going 4 Swashbuckler, 5 College of Swords Bard and 11 Champion fighter.
This way I'm still getting three attacks because of the fighter, still recover inspiration dice on the short rest as a bard. and still pick up the Rogue's ASI.
For race I picked Lightfoot Halfling. I know Half-Elf is better, and gets me more skills, but I don't want to overshadow other players and leave some area for them to show skill, and no I don't know what any other players will be, but I can assume they will be Medium in size so I can hide behind them, and Lucky is such a boon.
Now the build itself focus on Dex Con and Charisma. Charisma will be maxed out in the end, but Dex only needs to hit 16, while any positive number is fine in Con same said for Wisdom, while I know str and int I just don't want a negative modifier.
while going over the backgrounds I realized something, if I picked a background that had Thieves tools as proficiency then I could choose a different tool set as per page 126 in the player's book. Like a poisoner's kit. now I can't use a background from the league, it has to be in a book. so that limits me to 4 backgrounds. Spy, Criminal, Urban Bounty Hunter, and Urchin. Now I recently done Urchin and Bounty hunter so of the remaining, Spy and Criminal. I liked the idea of being a spy more than a criminal, but basically they are the same. Now often we dice roll out stuff, but for theory crafting a character I use point buy to figure it out.
Str 10
Dex 12 +2 =14
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 11
Cha 15 +1 =16
Since I get Deception and stealth to start
I continue the build with Acrobatics, Intim, Perception, Performance (after I will be a bard Later)
Expertise into Stealth and Deception ( I am a Criminal or spy after all)
Stay Rogue till level 4 going swashbuckler, and upping Charisma for the ASI.
Then go Bard for 5-9, My Charisma is High enough, Take Persuasion so I can now be a charmer
Take College of swords, Not sure which I'll take for hitting this expertise, maybe acrobatics and perception. Just spitballing here.
Take Dueling
Raise Dex+2 as ASI
the Fifth level of Bard is for the ability to regain inspiration dice on a short rest, the idea for the dice is for the college of swords defensive flourish which allows me an extra D8 to my AC, which I am planning for Medium armor, eventually half plate which gives me 15 AC +2 from Dex +2 from Shield, without magic items. I'll improve this a touch more later.
The remaining 11 levels is all Champion fighter. Take defense as Fighter which at level 12 means I'm now at 20 AC which for a rogue bard, is good.
Get second wind, and action surge, go champion for the later crit increase take my last ASI for Wisdom Maxing it out.
I will be honest, I'm not married to the Champion idea, but I'm having a hard time thinking any of the other ones would work any better.
This means any other ASI can be merits. and that is as much as I've figured out. I was thinking Sheild Master to help with Dex saves, but, again, let's leave some room for everyone else to share an idea here. Well Let me know community, what do you think/.
HI OP!

Honestly I'd say overall your build is pretty much optimal as is. My only suggestions about it would be...
1.DEX vs CHA: from what I get, your character is still very much a martial although with a strong gishy component. For such personal characters, my (little ;)) personal experience would say that having so high a CHA is absolutely not necessary, especially considering...
a) You'll have Expertise in the skills you really want
b) You won't get any other decent use of it before char level 7-8 (unless your concept is actually different that I understood and you planned to use Suggestions, Phantasmal Force or other such manipulation "save" spells, the only reason for CHA is Bardic Inspiration. And until you get them on short rest basis, having one or two more is really not a big deal imo).
c) As a Bard, you'll also get Enhance Ability so whether it's for you or for others, Bardic Inspiration can be "lived without".
All the while, in every fight, every single weapon attack you make, you'll miss "just a bit more" but enough to really feel the difference (and frustration).

So I'd really bump DEX in your first ASI.

2. Champion: I don't have any precise idea of how you envision your character (and how you see it working with his party), but considering among other things you'll want to take short rests ultimately because of Action Surge and Bardic Inspiration, or the fact you still want to use magic, Champion seems a bit limitative to me: it will certainly make you very good against STR dangers, and +1 AC is nice, but...
- Battlemaster recharges on short rest and can help you in many ways (especially Evasive Manoeuver, Precision, Trip).
- Eldricht Knight would allow you to boost your AC when it really counts for a 1st level slot (Shield) and give you ultimately access to Rope Trick too, along with a bit better spellcaster level.
- Cavalier would give you strong ways to play a secondary tank.

3. Level progression
I'm not sure you'll really be fine tri-classing "the old way". Unless it's a way to describe actually the character life or there are plot/character development reasons for this.
Otherwise, I'd start Fighter or Bard (depending on whether you prefer good concentration or Wisdom saves), or at least get one level or two of Bard earlier in character build.

[Starman973]

Citan: You bring up some good points Though I am certain I am going to start out rogue, the changing of the classes, will come easily enough, I'm not worried about the RP angle. and might be starting out at level 5, so that means, Rogue 4/Bard 1, and backgrounds are who you were, not who you are, so I can build from there. the enhanced ability, will be great if I feel like I'm not hitting my target well enough. I know Champ isn't the best, and there are a few maneuvers I like. I am just not sure I want to go with it or not. oh and this is just build theory, as my stats, if rolled, may be even higher, so a kind of hope for the best prepare for the worst. won't the maneuvers conflict with the flourishes? I could do one or the other, but not both. the Flourishes are there so I don't need to go Eldritch knight and cast shield, (also currently play one and loving it) worse case, I could just later get a spell storing ring and pay for someone to dump shield into for me. But Does Feigning Attack maneuver stack with Sneak attack?, might be nice if I'm going out numbered. But that's also why I leave in the chance of hiding behind one of my fellow PCs and still get a sneak attack in even if outnumbered. I will have to give it some serious consideration. Thank you.

Bid: I like using a little more structure than picking willy-nilly.

Cturbo: True there will be some tough parts, but I find that happens in most builds, and if I roll well who knows maybe Dex will be maxed out.

[Citan]

Citan: You bring up some good points Though I am certain I am going to start out rogue, the changing of the classes, will come easily enough, I'm not worried about the RP angle. and might be starting out at level 5, so that means, Rogue 4/Bard 1, and backgrounds are who you were, not who you are, so I can build from there. the enhanced ability, will be great if I feel like I'm not hitting my target well enough. I know Champ isn't the best, and there are a few maneuvers I like. I am just not sure I want to go with it or not. oh and this is just build theory, as my stats, if rolled, may be even higher, so a kind of hope for the best prepare for the worst. won't the maneuvers conflict with the flourishes? I could do one or the other, but not both. the Flourishes are there so I don't need to go Eldritch knight and cast shield, (also currently play one and loving it) worse case, I could just later get a spell storing ring and pay for someone to dump shield into for me. But Does Feigning Attack maneuver stack with Sneak attack?, might be nice if I'm going out numbered. But that's also why I leave in the chance of hiding behind one of my fellow PCs and still get a sneak attack in even if outnumbered. I will have to give it some serious consideration. Thank you.

Bid: I like using a little more structure than picking willy-nilly.

Cturbo: True there will be some tough parts, but I find that happens in most builds, and if I roll well who knows maybe Dex will be maxed out.
Hey again ;)

Thanks for appreciating the comments, it's nice to hear, but honestly I wouldn't mind even if you had disregarded. It's your character, your fun, your rules. :)

If you are ok with the progression being "sequential" then by all means go for it. ^^

About Manoeuvers being stackable with Flourish: my understanding of RAW is that it's completely legal: both require a weapon attack to be made, but they don't require any kind of action (so no action competition) and they are not features from the same "source" either (contrarily to some UA archetypes which provided basically "alternative Manoeuvers sets"), which is further stressed by the fact they don't use the same resource.
So nothing, except maybe the fear of being too damn good at your job ^^, would prevent you to stack both features on a single weapon attack.

It's exactly the same with Sneak Attack: it's a totally different feature that just happens to share one common requirement (weapon attack) with the aforementioned ones, in addition to other ones (using finesse or ranged, advantage or being "alone" with target).

If you are afraid of overshadowing others because of that extra efficiency, well, there are simple workarounds: pick Manoeuvers that help others, manoeuvers that uses up your reaction, or pick offensive Manoeuvers but alternate between them and Flourish to spare your resources between short rest while keeping a steady efficiency over encounters. :)

But, again, it's your character concept and you will be the one playing it in the first place ^^. And Champion is still a solid choice. I'm just biaised against it because I'm the kind of guy that craves for (tactical and otherwise) options, and have a hard time keeping the munchkinist in me in check. So I while I still think EK or Battlemaster could be "better" mechanically considering this specific tri-class (especially Battlemaster's Precision considering you won't bump your attack stat for most of your carrier), Champion is "largely fine" -especially if you count on getting advantage often, as a consequence getting more of Improved Critical range... And it has at least the merit of providing benefits without added resource tracking, which can be a bother at times ^^.
So go with your gut. :)

The only point I think would really merit serious reflexion of you as a possible change of plans is the CHA vs DEX bump. I'm afraid 14 DEX would feel a bit low (on that note, Enhance Ability helps with ability checks, *not* weapon attacks: so you can use it to Shove reliably, but otherwise it won't help htting people). Of course, if you roll a few 17-18...:smallbiggrin:

[bid]

I know Champ isn't the best, and there are a few maneuvers I like.
The randomness of the damage dice has a larger impact than archetype features, dropping the target to 1 hp happens regularly.

If you were going rogue 11, riposte would be godsent though. But as it stands, Citan hits the nail as usual.:smallwink: