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Thinker
2007-09-23, 04:27 PM
I have come up with a house rule for spellcasting in DnD and was wondering how balanced it seems compared to a. non-caster classes and b. current caster classes:


Get rid of the whole vancian system mess.
All casters may have a number of prepared spell-levels worth of spells equal to 2 * Primary Casting Stat Modifier + level. This would be all they could have prepared at any given moment.
It requires one move-action per spell-level to prepare a spell, provided you are not already at your cap for prepared spells. This preparation may be performed at any time.
Every time a spell is cast, the caster must pass a Will Save (DC = 10 + Spell Level * 1.5). The first failure results in the caster becoming fatigued (-2 penalty on strength and dexterity). The second failure results in the caster becoming exhausted (-6 penalty on strength and dexterity). Once the caster becomes exhausted he is unable to cast spells. The cure for both of these effects is the same as normal.
All arcane casters use Intelligence as their primary casting stat. This represents their mental capacity to hold magical energy.
All divine casters use Wisdom as their primary casting stat. This represents inspiration from their gods for the magic they use.
All spellcasters use Charisma to determine the spell-save DCs of their spells. This represents their force of personality having an effect on other people.
A spellcaster must have a primary stat equal to 10 + spell level to cast a spell of that level.
Spellcasters may know spells as a sorceror may normally cast in a day.

Spells Known
{table=head]level|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
1st|5|3
2nd|6|4
3rd|6|5
4th|6|6|3
5th|6|6|4
6th|6|6|5|3
7th|6|6|6|4
8th|6|6|6|5|3
9th|6|6|6|6|4
10th|6|6|6|6|5|3
11th|6|6|6|6|6|4
12th|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
13th|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
14th|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
15th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
16th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
17th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
18th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3
19th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4
20th|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
[/table]


This is my attempt to get away from the vancian casting system without resorting to spell points. What do you think?

I originally posted this in the Homebrew section, but did not get very much feedback, though what I did get was useful.

kamikasei
2007-09-23, 04:39 PM
I have come up with a house rule for spellcasting in DnD and was wondering how balanced it seems compared to a. non-caster classes and b. current caster classes:

[list]
Get rid of the whole vancian system mess.
All casters may have a number of prepared spell-levels worth of spells equal to 2 * Primary Casting Stat Modifier + level. This would be all they could have prepared at any given moment.

Can you clarify - is this 2*(mod+level) or (2*mod)+level?


Every time a spell is cast, the caster must pass a Will Save (DC = 10 + Spell Level * 1.5). The first failure results in the caster becoming fatigued (-2 penalty on strength and dexterity). The second failure results in the caster becoming exhausted (-6 penalty on strength and dexterity). Once the caster becomes exhausted he is unable to cast spells. The cure for both of these effects is the same as normal.

This sounds fantastically annoying. In general I cannot envision it being much fun to risk becoming fatigued every time I cast prestidigitation. Random elements of this sort - no thank you.

Kurald Galain
2007-09-23, 04:42 PM
You're way overdoing it.

You're essentially disallowing "utitility" mages entirely (because they can know way too few spells) and forcing high-level mages to use mostly first-level spells (most of which are ineffective at higher levels). Also, you haven't in fact gotten rid of Vancian at all, since you're still using fire-and-forget, although instant preparation during combat does break its flavor. And also, you're effectively forcing all casters to be charismatic, which breaks several archetypes.

For comparison, a standard first level sorcerer (which is not overpowered yet at that level) can cast four first-level spells in a row, useful for a tough encounter, and afterwards can resort to normal weapons. Under your system, he is about 50% likely to fail his will save after the first spell, thus likely to be unable to keep casting after three of them, and will no longer be able to use weapons by that point.

Although I normally tend to play casters, I would not even remotely consider playing anything resembling a caster under your system, even if you paid me.

Thinker
2007-09-23, 04:51 PM
Can you clarify - is this 2*(mod+level) or (2*mod)+level?
This is (2*mod)+level.


This sounds fantastically annoying. In general I cannot envision it being much fun to risk becoming fatigued every time I cast prestidigitation. Random elements of this sort - no thank you.
I could see a strong case for allowing cantrips/orisons to be freebies.




You're way overdoing it.

You're essentially disallowing "utitility" mages entirely (because they can know way too few spells)
Or it makes scrolls more worthwhile.



and forcing high-level mages to use mostly first-level spells (most of which are ineffective at higher levels).
At level 20 you can expect to have approximately a 34 casting stat. Maybe less with this, so we will say 28. That is 29 spell levels prepared at any given time.

Also, you haven't in fact gotten rid of Vancian at all, since you're still using fire-and-forget, although instant preparation during combat does break its flavor.
This is not the same flavor as vancian magic at all. Vancian does not just mean "fire and forget." The flavor I had in mind was capacity for magical power.


And also, you're effectively forcing all casters to be charismatic, which breaks several archetypes.
In DnD the Charisma stat covers a lot, including force of personality. You are willing people to be afflicted by your power.


For comparison, a standard first level sorcerer (which is not overpowered yet at that level) can cast four first-level spells in a row, useful for a tough encounter, and afterwards can resort to normal weapons. Under your system, he is about 50% likely to fail his will save after the first spell, thus likely to be unable to keep casting after three of them, and will no longer be able to use weapons by that point.
A standard first level magic-user with this would be able to cast a minimum of 2 spells before he's spent. An exhausted character can still use weapons, just not very effectively. A first level sorcerer isn't very effective at nonmagical combat to begin with.



Although I normally tend to play casters, I would not even remotely consider playing anything resembling a caster under your system, even if you paid me.
Now who's overreacting? :smalltongue:

Kurald Galain
2007-09-23, 04:56 PM
A first level sorcerer isn't very effective to begin with.

No, and your idea makes him an order of magnitude worse.

However, judged by your response you don't seem interested in feedback, so I don't think there's any use in discussing this further.

Thinker
2007-09-23, 04:59 PM
No, and your idea makes him an order of magnitude worse.

However, judged by your response you don't seem interested in feedback, so I don't think there's any use in discussing this further.

I am interested in feedback and discussion. I'm sorry if I don't say "My god you're right! The entire system I've come up with is fatally flawed and should never be brought up again!" just because you mentioned you had an issue with it. All you have said is that you're "way overdoing it." What would you suggest be changed? Also, that comment was not meant to be very effective, but very effective at nonmagical combat.

Rad
2007-09-23, 05:03 PM
I wouldn't bother with changing the magic system; as much as I hate vancian casting I think it is too much rooted in the system to be easily replaced (unless you want to homebrew 4e before the PHB is out, which could be an honorable purpose).

That said, I'll give you my first impressions:
- you're requiring more dice rolls. An attack has a to hit roll but not a defence roll. Now spells involve a roll for casting them as well as SR and saves.
- the use of the will save makes me raise several points:

you are tying spellcasting to wisdom by requiring a will save. Now a wizard needs three ability scores while a cleric/druid only 2.
taking several PrCs will boost your will save since usually caster PrCs get good will save and 1st level gives you +2. This encourages cherrypicking to the point where a caster looks for more classes just to push the base will up
saves are cheap to boost via items or other effects. So it can very well not work in limiting casters unless they choose to nerf themselves (and then you could play vancian)
in the spirit of the rules, saves are for preventing something to happen to you. A spellcraft check (see epic magic) would be more in tune with the rest of the mechanics.


- you allow to prepare spells with much liberality. Basically any caster can replenish spell slots between encounters. Not sure if that is what you intended but they hardly need it IMO.

-preparing spells on the fly makes a lot of utility spells too useful. To prepare and cast detect traps is too much better that to make a search check. Your rogue is going to be shadowed (or dip as sorcerer)

- stating the limit on spells prepared in terms of spell levels is not good. Higher level spells are much better than more lower level ones, so you allow casters to get more powerful spells for their (limitedly useful) lower level ones.

-few spells known is bad (personal preference). What is a fact is that limited spells known kills many neat spells that are not broad enough to earn a place in any real PG list but are occasionally fun to see cast.

All in all... I don't think I'd use it.