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kpenguin
2007-09-23, 05:19 PM
I'm planning on making a mind flayer BBEG for my PCs. Since they're about 6th level right now and I want the mind flayer to grow more powerful at each meeting until a climatic showdown at around 13th level, I need class levels for him. I thought that Warlock might be a good idea, since the needed charisma would synergize well with with mind flayer's spell-like abilities.

My two questions:

1) Is warlock a good idea? (I know psion would be better, but I'm running a non-psionic campaign)
2) What sorts of invocations, feats, etc. should I give?

13_CBS
2007-09-23, 05:21 PM
Hmm, check out this thread at gleemax:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=703767

Dullyanna
2007-09-23, 05:45 PM
Fluffwise, it should probably be an alhoon, since the standard mind flayer is part of a "collective". Getting down to the cruchy bits, though, I'd say a warlock makes an excellent BBEG, due to their survivability. I'd give him some minions, as he can't deal that much damage on his own.

slexlollar89
2007-09-23, 05:51 PM
You could make more than one, and have a sort of coven... Plus multiple warlocks are actually pretty scary, and if they work together...ughhh TPK.

kpenguin
2007-09-24, 04:09 AM
Alright, update:

I'm thinking that that the mind flayer won't be the actual BBEG, but a very powerful minion. The back story is that the mind flayer escaped from a collective that was about to execute him for his warlocky ways and was nursed back to health by a very ambitious kobold (the BBEG). The mind flayer swears loyalty to the kobold and we've got a nice minion. Anyway, the mind flayer will come in later when one of the PCs is captured and performs an interrogation on him.

I need a singular mind flayer warlock. I'm thinking some battlefield control invocations. I'm going to have a few minions accompany him so put that in your thoughts as you pimp my illithid.

Duke of URL
2007-09-24, 07:16 AM
Well, an mind flayer has 8 racial HD and a +7 LA. That's ECL 15 before any class levels. I doubt you're going to get much Walocky goodness there. Of course, you're ditching psionics, so that takes away a special ability of the race and can allow you to drop the LA accordingly.

Still, you're looking at Least invocations and maybe a Lesser one or two. Battlefield control is a good move, as you aren't going to do appreciable direct damage with invocations, and you don't need to pump up your melee presence.

Least:

Voice of Madness - a must, I would think. Will save DC 12 + CHA (14 + CHA, assuming you've taken Ability Focus, and, why wouldn't you?) to confuse a PC for 3-4 rounds? Yes, please.
See the Unseen - if the PCs are expected to use invisibility
Earthen Grasp - may be a little weak against PCs, though
Miasmic Cloud - minions can get harmed too, though
Baleful Utterance - nothing says "gaaaah!" like losing a cherished possession


Lesser:

Curse of Despair - nice way to knock those PCs down a peg, and permanent (until healed) effects will make a more lasting impression of "bossness"
Fell Flight - flying mindflayers... yummy
Flee the Scene - almost mandatory for recurring bosses
Hungry Darkness - see Miasmic Cloud; also, concentration invocations make you otherwise useless
Walk Unseen - invisibility is fun, but probably not necessary
The Dead Walk - interesting one here... too bad it's 4HD per invoker level and not 4 HD controlled per invoker's total HD -- undead minions would be immune to Miasmic Cloud, making it more viable.


Edit: You get a lot more Warlock levels if you consider just applying a half-ithilid template instead (applies to any non-human humanoid, maybe chaos gnome?) -- no racial HD and only LA +5, so figuring a good boss has ECL 3 or 4 higher that the PC's party level, you can introduce it at ECL 9-10, giving it a few Warlock levels, and getting up to ECL 17 or so by the end, looking at cracking into the Greater invocations, specifically, Chilling Tentacles.

Leon
2007-09-24, 07:21 AM
Given its a "Minion of the BBEG" ECL and LA arent as important

RTGoodman
2007-09-24, 07:26 AM
I second the Duke's suggestion of the Earthen/Stony/Whatever Grasp invocations. Those are really good if you have minions fighting under you, since you just make sure the hands grapple enemies while your allies hack them to death.

kamikasei
2007-09-24, 08:59 AM
Well, an mind flayer has 8 racial HD and a +7 LA. That's ECL 15 before any class levels. I doubt you're going to get much Walocky goodness there. Of course, you're ditching psionics, so that takes away a special ability of the race and can allow you to drop the LA accordingly.

Firstly - if he's not playing with psionic rules that just means the flayer's psionic abilities are spell-like and he can't be beefed up with levels in psion; he'll still have psionic abilities as detailed in the monster entry.

Secondly, ECL != CR. A vanilla mind flayer is CR 8. The 9th-level sorcerer flayer in the MM is only CR 13 (apparently it considers sorcerer levels non-associated for the creature, which seems odd to me). With the party going from 6th to 13th level that allows for quite a few levels in warlock - especially if it's nonassociated.

Afraidofsharpie
2007-09-24, 09:05 AM
Not to mention that the CR system itself is only really reliable with a party of a a Tank, a Skill Monkey, an Arcane Caster, and a Divine Caster. If you deviate from that its best just to determine yourself if it would be a good encounter.

Now for the OP, how large is the party? Is it the 'standard' 4-man team or is it smaller? Larger? If its larger then you might want to pick up some of the invocations that take a target out of the fight. Don't have my books on me but later when I get home I can start naming some of the invocations.

kpenguin
2007-09-24, 10:44 PM
The party is five strong:

CN Elf Sorcerer: Party's face, strong personality, very greedy, likes blasting

CG Elf Wizard: Party leader, casts mostly control and buffs but blasts often enough

CG Halfling Rogue: Likes to steal and sneak, throws daggers

NG Dwarf Barbarian: Power attacks and tracks

LG Human Cleric: Support spells, healing, connection to the guy giving out the hooks

The party is relatively inexperienced, so no Batman or CoDzilla or Shock Troopers.

Jasdoif
2007-09-24, 11:12 PM
A vanilla mind flayer is CR 8. The 9th-level sorcerer flayer in the MM is only CR 13 (apparently it considers sorcerer levels non-associated for the creature, which seems odd to me).What? My MM says the sorcerer's CR 17 (which is right if its sorcerer levels are associated).

kpenguin
2007-09-24, 11:28 PM
What? My MM says the sorcerer's CR 17 (which is right if its sorcerer levels are associated).

My MM agrees.

JackMage666
2007-09-24, 11:56 PM
My M&M just says... M.

It's not at helpful

Either way, a Warlock is alright for a BBEG/Assistant BBEG. Just remember, plan to CR, not ECL. ECL is for Players, CR is for DMs.

kpenguin
2007-09-24, 11:59 PM
I know.

Should warlock be treated as associated or unassociated?

Associated means 5 levels of warlock, unassociated means 9.

JackMage666
2007-09-25, 12:11 AM
I'd say unassociated. Yeah, it's arcane power, but it's also a bit different than, say, a Sorcerer or Wizard.

Plus, a Warlock 5 gains so few abilities. It won't even have a lesser invocation. A Warlock 9 is no picknick either, but it's got at least some curveballs to throw.

Dausuul
2007-09-25, 01:43 AM
A vanilla mind flayer is CR 8. The 9th-level sorcerer flayer in the MM is only CR 13 (apparently it considers sorcerer levels non-associated for the creature, which seems odd to me). With the party going from 6th to 13th level that allows for quite a few levels in warlock - especially if it's nonassociated.

The idea behind associated classes is that their benefits stack with the creature's native capabilities. Thus, fighter is associated for a minotaur, because the minotaur's Strength, BAB, high hit points, natural weapons, and natural armor all stack with the fighter's talents. Likewise, rogue is associated for a babau demon, since the rogue's sneak attack and stealth skills stack with the babau's.

Caster classes are only associated for creatures that are actual spellcasters. For instance, a planetar casts spells as a 17th-level cleric. If the planetar somehow gained 3 actual cleric levels, it would cast as a 20th-level cleric, so cleric is an associated class for a planetar. On the other hand, a mind flayer with 9 levels in sorceror still only casts as a 9th-level sorceror; the sorceror's casting does not stack in any way with the mind flayer's SLAs. (Yeah, the MM says the mind flayer sorc is CR 17, but I think that's a mistake. A real CR 17 monster--a marilith, say--would go through that sorc like it wasn't even there.)

Warlock would thus be non-associated for mind flayers. A basic mind flayer is CR 8. A mind flayer with 4 levels of warlock is CR 10. A mind flayer with 8 levels of warlock is CR 12. Beyond that, additional warlock levels will increase the CR on a 1-for-1 basis.

Duke of URL
2007-09-25, 07:14 AM
Thanks all for the CR lesson. :smallredface:

Okay... Mindflayer Warlock 9, battlefield control specialist. Let's assume 28 point buy for giggles... max out CHA, get good DEX and CON, let racial bonuses shore up STR, INT, and WIS. I get (with level increases): STR 10, DEX 18, CON 16, INT 16, WIS 14, CHA 28

HD1: Spell Penetration
HD2
HD3: Greater Spell Penetration
HD4: CHA+1 (CHA=25)
HD5:
HD6: FEAT
HD7:
HD8: CHA+1 (CHA=26)
Wk1: Least Invocation: Voice of Madness, Ability Focus (Voice of Madness)
Wk2: Least Invocation: Earthen Grasp
Wk3:
Wk4: CHA+1 (CHA=27), Least Invocation: Baleful Utterance, FEAT
Wk5:
Wk6: Lesser Invocation: Curse of Despair
Wk7: Ability Focus (Curse of Despair)
Wk8: CHA+1 (CHA=28), Lesser Invocation: Flee The Scene
Wk9:

There are two unassigned feats there... I kind of like Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes, in case AoOs arise, but these are entirely up to you. You can also trade the Ability Focus feat for Curse of Despair for an extra Least Invocation (see the unseen) if you don't mind losing the +2 DC.

This puts save DCs (without additional CHA enhancements) for Voice of Madness at 21 and for Curse of Despair at 23. Too bad they're both Will saves, it's be nice to have a Fort save in there to target the casters' weaknesses.

Even at level 1, it's frighteningly dangerous to a party of 6th levels when paired with minions. Voice of Madness (Will DC 20) will confuse a party member (specifically, the Barbarian or Rogue) for a round with probably 75+% chance of success. At level 2, this becomes two rounds, with an additional round every two levels (so, 5 rounds at level 9).

kamikasei
2007-09-25, 08:00 AM
What? My MM says the sorcerer's CR 17 (which is right if its sorcerer levels are associated).

Mine definitely says 13. Odd. I bought my MM fairly recently, so I suspect if the lot of you disagree that it was an edit in more recent editions (of the book, not the rules).


Okay... Mindflayer Warlock 9, battlefield control specialist.

Remember to build a progression, so that you can start him out at one power level and then add Warlock levels between encounters to keep scaling him up as the party levels. Remember also that if the party is to reach 13th level for the final confrontation, you can afford to give him a higher CR in order to keep him "very difficult" rather than "challenging". When they're at 6th level a flayer with two levels of warlock would be CR 9, just shy of overpowering. Four levels makes CR 10, six CR 11, eight CR 12, nine CR 13, ten CR 14, eleven CR 15, twelve CR 16. That's a decent amount of warlock to make the encounter quite a tough fight.

kpenguin
2007-09-25, 10:37 PM
Mmmmm... would Ability Focus (Mind Blast) be a good idea?

EDIT: What should the CR be, given I want to give him a few minions to help out in the fight?

Ramza00
2007-09-25, 11:53 PM
The idea behind associated classes is that their benefits stack with the creature's native capabilities. Thus, fighter is associated for a minotaur, because the minotaur's Strength, BAB, high hit points, natural weapons, and natural armor all stack with the fighter's talents. Likewise, rogue is associated for a babau demon, since the rogue's sneak attack and stealth skills stack with the babau's.

Caster classes are only associated for creatures that are actual spellcasters. For instance, a planetar casts spells as a 17th-level cleric. If the planetar somehow gained 3 actual cleric levels, it would cast as a 20th-level cleric, so cleric is an associated class for a planetar. On the other hand, a mind flayer with 9 levels in sorceror still only casts as a 9th-level sorceror; the sorceror's casting does not stack in any way with the mind flayer's SLAs. (Yeah, the MM says the mind flayer sorc is CR 17, but I think that's a mistake. A real CR 17 monster--a marilith, say--would go through that sorc like it wasn't even there.)

Warlock would thus be non-associated for mind flayers. A basic mind flayer is CR 8. A mind flayer with 4 levels of warlock is CR 10. A mind flayer with 8 levels of warlock is CR 12. Beyond that, additional warlock levels will increase the CR on a 1-for-1 basis.

exactly, though you should also pay attention to the monster's stats. The nice boosts to int and cha do help save dcs even if the monster is several levels behind. Just do things on a case by case basis.

For example a Succubus 6/Sorcerer 10 will have a cr of 7+5 =12 if you treat the sorcerer levels as non associated. Due to the racial cha of 26 she is throwing around spells with save dcs of 10+13+5 (5th lvl spells)=28 dc. A lvl 14 paladin would have a fort save of 9 plus con (assuming 14 plus a +4 item for a total of +4), plus cha (assuming 14 plus a +4 item for a total of +4), plus cloak of resistance +4. He would have to roll a 7 to make his save, and this is a tricked out paladin with good saves and targeted with his strongest save. Imagine a rogue whose will save is targeted.

That said sure a mind flayer has a racial cha of 18 and this helps warlock, it may yield a +1 or +2 to cr, but in reality not much as my above succubus example

Dausuul
2007-09-26, 12:27 AM
exactly, though you should also pay attention to the monster's stats. The nice boosts to int and cha do help save dcs even if the monster is several levels behind. Just do things on a case by case basis.

For example a Succubus 6/Sorcerer 10 will have a cr of 7+5 =12 if you treat the sorcerer levels as non associated. Due to the racial cha of 26 she is throwing around spells with save dcs of 10+13+5 (5th lvl spells)=28 dc. A lvl 14 paladin would have a fort save of 9 plus con (assuming 14 plus a +4 item for a total of +4), plus cha (assuming 14 plus a +4 item for a total of +4), plus cloak of resistance +4. He would have to roll a 7 to make his save, and this is a tricked out paladin with good saves and targeted with his strongest save. Imagine a rogue whose will save is targeted.

That said sure a mind flayer has a racial cha of 18 and this helps warlock, it may yield a +1 or +2 to cr, but in reality not much as my above succubus example

Actually, the 10th-level succubus sorceror would be CR 14, not CR 12. She has 6 monster Hit Dice, so her first 6 sorc levels are non-associated. After that point, sorceror is treated as an associated class for her, and any further levels count 1-for-1.

kpenguin
2007-09-26, 01:03 AM
Alright, the mind flayer at its height will be a level 11 warlock (CR 15)

I'm going to use the elite array as the base for the stats, and will be arranging as follows:

Str 8
Dex 10
Con 12
Int 14
Wis 13
Cha 15

With the bonuses from race, HD, and a +4 cloak of charisma, that comes out to:

Str 10
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 22
Wis 19
Cha 27

Now, with a ablility focus (mind blast), the mind flayer's mind blast's DC will jump up to a whopping 24. The DC of its invocations will 14+ESL.

Duke of URL
2007-09-26, 07:27 AM
The DC of its invocations will 14+ESL.
Not sure where you get 14 from... it should be 18 + ESL (10 + CHA modifier + ESL). Any invocation you take Ability Focus for will be at an additional +2 DC as well.

As a level 11 Warlock, as opposed to the 9th level Warlock above, you'll get one more feat (at Warlock 10 [18 total HD]), one more Lesser invocation, and one Greater invocation. I like Chilling Tentacles, and swap out Earthen Grasp for See The Unseen, if you haven't already done so at Warlock 6.

kpenguin
2007-09-27, 12:22 AM
Alright, I've planned for our cephalopod-like friendto have 4 full scale confrontations with the PCs. At each encounter, his CR will be two above the PCs and he will be accompanied by 4 minions.

First Encounter (EL 10)
PC Level: 7
Mind Flayer Level: Warlock 2 (CR 9)
Minions: CR 3 each

Second Encounter (EL 12)
PC Level: 9
Mind Flayer Level: Warlock 6 (CR 11)
Minions: CR 5 each

Third Encounter (EL 14)
PC Level: 11
Mind Flayer Level: Warlock 9 (CR 13)
Minions: CR 7 each

Fourth Encounter (EL 16)
PC Level: 13
Mind Flayer Level: Warlock 11 (CR 13)
Minions: CR 9 each