I have found my character! I think...

[ZorroGames]

Edit: rebuilt as needed to be AL MC legal. Thanks for the catch. Multiple variations on a theme and I missed a basic requirement. 🤯

BLUF: Should I play this character in our AL games? Currently I only play AL since that is my only option at this time.

This seems to be my perfect, wacky, slightly optimized, character filled Mountain Dwarf Wizard with a Dip in Fighter (or possibly Cleric.)

Because he likely starts with a level of fighter he is proficient in Heavy Armor, (See page 144 PHB) he is not suffering the penalties for lack of proficiencies. He avoids the speed reduction penalty on PHB page 20 because he is a dwarf.

Alternatively, he could start as a War Cleric for Heavy Armor proficiency, Martial Weapons proficiency, and Domain spells which might be better with Domain Spells and spell slots.

Final levels either F1/WI 19 or F2/WI 18. Alternatively, CL 2/WI 18.

Starting stats are likely:

ST 8+2 (0)=10, average
DE 10 (2), average
CO 14+2 (7)=16, Wizard HPs per level 4+3=7; start with 10+3 as Fighter (8+3 if Cleric start, see below.)
IN 15 (9), will need boosting at some point
WI 14 (7), CL MC possibility and WI saves.
CH 10 (2), average

(27 total with point buy)

First Feat/ASI to raise IN to 16. Second might be Warcaster.

NOTE: Stealth is at disadvantage, yes. You could stay Fighter in Medium Armor at level 1 instead of Cleric and switch DE to 14 and WI to 10. There are costs associated though in WI saves. Not really appealing to me to go Medium Armor.

NOTE: Really like the idea of PAM with Staff and Shield. Maybe level 16 if boost IN at Level 12 to 18?

NOTE: F1 would allow IN to 20 when achieve level 19 at cost of Action Surge whereas F2 allows Action Surge at cost of last ASI.

This defines Mountain Dwarf “Fun and Games” to me.

I have the background started. Of course I do...

[Aett_Thorn]

So I may have missed the point here. Why going Wizard if you then want to go with PAM/staff/shield? You’re stuck with one weak attack and a weak bonus action attack.

You didn’t really explain why this character is a Wizard, and for what purpose.

[CTurbo]

Yeah don't build a non Bladesinger Wizard and plan to melee it up with him unless you're gonna run some Abjuration + Armor of Agathys shenanigans.



If you want to be a tougher than normal Wizard, take a level or two of Cleric so you don't lose spell slots. I'd go Forge if you REALLY want heavy armor, but Knowledge with Medium Armor is probably the best pick. Heavy Armor really only has a +1 AC advantage over Medium. Is it really that worth it to you?

[ZorroGames]

Ah, the optimizer oriented chime in. That is cool. 🙃

This is a Mountain Dwarf Wizard who is a high faith character. Role Play over Optimization. 😀

Heavy Armor is “just” a 16 at start and an 18 with plate. With a DE of 10, this is good enough for defensive purposes. And some nice Mariner’s Armor (Plate) would be great characterization. Just saying. 😉

Melee is something it would be nice to avoid but sometimes you can’t avoid it. If he must fight this give him a “fighting chance” with a martial weapon, eventually Plate, and maybe a shield. War Priest and Channel Divinity add to that emergency combat. Add in SOF. AC 20 with Plate. Adequate, no?

[Perlywhirly]

You mentioned optimization in your opening post. If you didn’t want critique, what are you looking for here? Do you just want people to congratulate you on playing a suboptimal unorthodox character?

[KorvinStarmast]

You mentioned optimization in your opening post. If you didn’t want critique, what are you looking for here? He's trying to optimize for a particular concept, not DPR, and is looking for feedback on the options he has necked it down to.

For the OP:
I'd recommend the F1 W 19 approach. Fighting Style Defensive.

[ZorroGames]

So I may have missed the point here. Why going Wizard if you then want to go with PAM/staff/shield? You’re stuck with one weak attack and a weak bonus action attack.

You didn’t really explain why this character is a Wizard, and for what purpose.

Which is one more attack, if you must fight, than a Quarterstaff. Initially it would be more likely a martial weapon like a Great Sword or Maul but PAM would add that OA at 10 feet as your foes surround you. We have a DM who likes to “sandwich” low level Wizards in melee force them to disengage and prevent their casting. Been there with a Dire Wolf and Two Goblins. My initiative 1 injured Human Wizard finished off the dead (max damage critical hit bite) Paladin injured Dire Wolf with a dagger but that was mot expected by the DM based on his facial expression. Not like that happens regularly.

Ideally the a wizard would not be in melee but this makes it harder for Goblin archers to play “pin the arrow in the Wizard” which that same aforementioned DM also likes to do at first level.

Purpose? Most AL beginning casters I have DM’ed have not thought beyond “fireball” actually. But I can tell you why.

I like... no, love... to play Mountain Dwarf, no need to justify that, I just do. Role play. And hit point bonuses if you need a mechanical reason, I do not.

I remember how great it was in 0D&D to get that D4 hp Wizard levels up to provide support to the fighters and melee Clerics. The idea of being the Heavy Support Weapon for a party tickles my war gamer heart. Much easier as. D6 character in 5e.

The image of a Plate armored Wizard is one I relish. Right now, just thinking about puts a big grin on my face.

Stealth is not a priority for my play style. It just isn’t.

A Goblin getting close to a Battle Axe or Glaive or Great Sword wielding Wizard seems like more fun than a dagger for the Dwarf. I mean me. Yes I identify with my characters.

Higher levels the Scorching Rays, Counterspells, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, Haste, Slow, Banishment, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, Polymorph, Wall of (fill in the blank,) Yada-yada-yada spells will be a mainstay but the fun and flavor will remain for me.

That would be my purpose.

[ZorroGames]

He's trying to optimize for a particular concept, not DPR, and is looking for feedback on the options he has necked it down to.

For the OP:
I'd recommend the F1 W 19 approach. Fighting Style Defensive.

Got it. Exactly.

[OverLordOcelot]

This character isn't legal in the standard rules (including AL). To multiclass as a fighter, you need to have either a STR or DEX of 13, and this character has a 10 in both. You start as any class regardless of stats, but multiclassing requires a 13 in the stats listed in the chart for all of your classes, including the first one.

I don't know what you mean by 'slightly optimized', this character is decidedly non-optimal - he's pretty much always going to come off behind a straight wizard. A one level fighter dip is pretty awful for a mage because it hurts your spell progression without giving you the big ability of action surge. One level of forge cleric gives you the same armor types and AC bonus as a fighter without reducing your spell slot progression, and you have 1st level cleric spells and additional cantrips instead of healing surge. (It's also legal with your current stats).

Planning to spend feats on polearm mastery when you're bad with the polearm is also weird to me, if you're planning to do enough melee to spend feats on things like that then you should probably take enough STR to make the polearm attacks worthwhile. Doing 1d6+1d4 (staff + bonus action) at the cost of a feat really pales behind the 2d8 you could get from shocking grasp or 2d8/2d12 from Toll the Dead , which doesn't cost a feat or use your bonus action.

[Aett_Thorn]

Got it. Exactly.

Okay, then we need to know more about the concept! You gave us a bunch of stats, and a build, but almost no details on the concept that you're trying to go for. Why Wizard? Why a Fighter/Wizard? Why a Mountain Dwarf? None of that was in the OP, so yes, I assumed that you were looking for optimization help on this. If you're just going for a concept, then you need to explain what exactly the concept is.

[ZorroGames]

He's trying to optimize for a particular concept, not DPR, and is looking for feedback on the options he has necked it down to.

For the OP:
I'd recommend the F1 W 19 approach. Fighting Style Defensive.

That is a path I have considered but others have told me, “No, you need action surge.” Not sure of that comment. Yes, it would be useful once a short or long rest but that second 6th level spell at 19th is not a throw-away item IMO plus losing that last ASI/Feat opportunity...

I think that is a great suggestion. Thanks for providing a course of action for this character. The Cleric thing seems so much more complicated TBH. Wizard is complex enough without adding MC considerations.

As I just leveled my first character (Earth Genasi Fighter) to 11th I am finally letting myself think seriously about taking a character to level 20. The Mountain Dwarf Wizard has been on my mind since I returned to D&D with 5e after several decades away.

Nothing wrong with extreme optimization but it carries less weight that character for my playing. I can let the others casters, martial, etc., play their style while I enjoy mine.

[ZorroGames]

Okay, then we need to know more about the concept! You gave us a bunch of stats, and a build, but almost no details on the concept that you're trying to go for. Why Wizard? Why a Fighter/Wizard? Why a Mountain Dwarf? None of that was in the OP, so yes, I assumed that you were looking for optimization help on this. If you're just going for a concept, then you need to explain what exactly the concept is.

Okay, my oversight.

[ZorroGames]

This character isn't legal in the standard rules (including AL). To multiclass as a fighter, you need to have either a STR or DEX of 13, and this character has a 10 in both. You start as any class regardless of stats, but multiclassing requires a 13 in the stats listed in the chart for all of your classes, including the first one.

I don't know what you mean by 'slightly optimized', this character is decidedly non-optimal - he's pretty much always going to come off behind a straight wizard. A one level fighter dip is pretty awful for a mage because it hurts your spell progression without giving you the big ability of action surge. One level of forge cleric gives you the same armor types and AC bonus as a fighter without reducing your spell slot progression, and you have 1st level cleric spells and additional cantrips instead of healing surge. (It's also legal with your current stats).

Planning to spend feats on polearm mastery when you're bad with the polearm is also weird to me, if you're planning to do enough melee to spend feats on things like that then you should probably take enough STR to make the polearm attacks worthwhile. Doing 1d6+1d4 (staff + bonus action) at the cost of a feat really pales behind the 2d8 you could get from shocking grasp or 2d8/2d12 from Toll the Dead , which doesn't cost a feat or use your bonus action.

Right. Great catch. Rebuilding...

F 1/ Wi 19 build passing on Cleric.

ST 15 (5+2) looking at Plate eventually, no boost needed
DE 10 (2)
CO 14 (7+2)
IN 15 (9) boost at first ASI.
WI 12 (4)
CH 8 (0)

Background Soldier from a clan in Ironmaster that provided warriors for generations. Because you developed magic skills your clan master “suggested” you undertake adventuring (as in a ‘voluntary permanent self-banishment’) to save everyone from the “embarrassment.” You have been teaching yourself the principles of magic but at first lev l you have yet to master it. That will show up at 2nd level. 😉.

[ZorroGames]

Okay, then we need to know more about the concept! You gave us a bunch of stats, and a build, but almost no details on the concept that you're trying to go for. Why Wizard? Why a Fighter/Wizard? Why a Mountain Dwarf? None of that was in the OP, so yes, I assumed that you were looking for optimization help on this. If you're just going for a concept, then you need to explain what exactly the concept is.

Reposting because I think our posts crossed paths.


“ I like... no, love... to play Mountain Dwarf, no need to justify that, I just do. Role play. And hit point bonuses if you need a mechanical reason, I do not.

I remember how great it was in 0D&D to get that D4 hp Wizard levels up to provide support to the fighters and melee Clerics. The idea of being the Heavy Support Weapon for a party tickles my war gamer heart. Much easier as. D6 character in 5e.

The image of a Plate armored Wizard is one I relish. Right now, just thinking about puts a big grin on my face.

Stealth is not a priority for my play style. It just isn’t.

A Goblin getting close to a Battle Axe or Glaive or Great Sword wielding Wizard seems like more fun than a dagger for the Dwarf. I mean me. Yes I identify with my characters.

Higher levels the Scorching Rays, Counterspells, Fireballs, Lightning Bolts, Haste, Slow, Banishment, Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere, Polymorph, Wall of (fill in the blank,) Yada-yada-yada spells will be a mainstay but the fun and flavor will remain for me.

That would be my purpose.”

[ZorroGames]

@OverLordOcelet. Good build but not one I really wanted for this character. The self-banishment of my previous post works better if my Ironmaster clan master wants me gone. Magic seemed more in tone than Forge Cleric for that aspect.

Edit: I think that is actually a great build but I would have to rewrite my background story. 😉. That would be great character to play and maybe next time I will write a background story to base such a character on.

[OverLordOcelot]

As for your later comments - the wizard smacking things with a greatsword is going to be woefully ineffective at slicing compared to zapping after the first few levels. He's not even going to be very good at slicing over zapping at low levels. Giving up a feat and 2 AC to get one op attack that does 1d10 to 2d6 damage with no attack bonus and no damage bonus (PAM, polearm with reach, you only get 1 reaction per turn) as an enemy approaches you just isn't going to be very effective. Frying enemies by delivering shocking grasp through your staff (so you keep the visual of smacking them) is going to be way, way more effective once you hit 5th level, and your melee abilities are going to pale beside marital characters who get twice as many attacks and +3-4 more to hit and damage over you.


I'd recommend the F1 W 19 approach. Fighting Style Defensive.

Why F1 over C1? Forge Cleric gives the same AC as defensive fighting style fighter, so that's a wash. Fighter gets healing surge, but cleric gets healing spells, more cantrips, and doesn't hurt spell slot progression, so I'd say cleric is much better, and fits more with the 'high faith character' idea.

[OverLordOcelot]

@OverLordOcelet. Good build but not one I really wanted. The self-banishment of my previous post works better if my Ironmaster clan master wants me gone. Magic seemed more in tone than Forge Cleric for that aspect.

OK, the later rebuild will be much better at this than what you had before. You'll actually have a hit/damage bonus so using melee weapons isn't so awful, and when you use your ASI to boost INT you can also bump STR to 16 with the second point to help melee also. I do think you want to get a second fighter level if you go this way, action surge can help compensate for being behind in spell casting ability.

[ZorroGames]

As for your later comments - the wizard smacking things with a greatsword is going to be woefully ineffective at slicing compared to zapping after the first few levels. He's not even going to be very good at slicing over zapping at low levels. Giving up a feat and 2 AC to get one op attack that does 1d10 to 2d6 damage with no attack bonus and no damage bonus (PAM, polearm with reach, you only get 1 reaction per turn) as an enemy approaches you just isn't going to be very effective. Frying enemies by delivering shocking grasp through your staff (so you keep the visual of smacking them) is going to be way, way more effective once you hit 5th level, and your melee abilities are going to pale beside marital characters who get twice as many attacks and +3-4 more to hit and damage over you.



Why F1 over C1? Forge Cleric gives the same AC as defensive fighting style fighter, so that's a wash. Fighter gets healing surge, but cleric gets healing spells, more cantrips, and doesn't hurt spell slot progression, so I'd say cleric is much better, and fits more with the 'high faith character' idea.

Background story. Yes, all valid points but it fits the background story of a prejudiced against magic Clanmaster better. This character started out to be a Champion or Battlemaster in his plans but the Gods and his Clan Master threw a monkey wrench into his and his family’s plans.

Similar to real estate: Story, story, story. 😇

I am seriously thinking writing the Cleric build down in my notes for a future character. I do like it very much.

Yeah, the PAM thing might unnecessary story when all is said and done. So noted.

Clerics are expected to have high faith. The Fighter with a high faith is not unreasonable. Not every high faith character needs to be a Cleric, right?

[ZorroGames]

OK, the later rebuild will be much better at this than what you had before. You'll actually have a hit/damage bonus so using melee weapons isn't so awful, and when you use your ASI to boost INT you can also bump STR to 16 with the second point to help melee also. I do think you want to get a second fighter level if you go this way, action surge can help compensate for being behind in spell casting ability.

Thanks my original draft had a ST (for Chainmail) of 14, IN of 15, and WI of 13 then I started playing with the numbers and lost track of the MC requirement out of Fighter. Again, good catch.

LOL, it was pointed out to me that, “... Ringmail does not have a ST requirement but is Heavy Armor...”

🤨🤣

[Palfatreos]

If you haven't picked your +1 you could get SCA and grab booming or green flame blade giving your target a little suprise while smacking them with a staff :P.

[Azgeroth]

Which is one more attack, if you must fight, than a Quarterstaff. Initially it would be more likely a martial weapon like a Great Sword or Maul but PAM would add that OA at 10 feet as your foes surround you.

That would be my purpose.

PAM lets you use your reaction to make an opportunity attack when a creature enters your reach. your reach with a quarterstaff is 5ft.

definitely take warcaster, so you can cast spells when people enter your reach, aswell as adv on conc. checks.

get a casting focus ring, your golden.

if you swap your quaterstaff for a glaive you will be able to cast spells as reactions at 10ft, with warcaster, i recommend booming blade :)

[Petrocorus]

What do you really want to accomplish with this character? Being a Mountain Dwarf Wizard that can survive in melee?

The Mountain Dwarf already gives you intermediate armor prof, so an AC of 16 with Dex 14 and 400 GP.

If you really want the full plate wizard, then go Fighter 1 / Wizard 19, but no more than this on the Fighter side. Lest you become a gish more than a wizard, Action Surge is good for sure but not so good as to sacrifice a caster level. Take the defensive style and get AC 19 at level 1. You're not going to do real melee damage anyway unless you use GFB.

War Magic will improve you melee survivability, but Abjurer is at least as good and Enchanter, Conjurer and Illusionist have some options too.

If you don't choose War Magic, use your +1 book to take GFB. Warcaster allows you to make OA with a spell.
If you go War Magic, then Toll the Dead and Frostbite are your melee attacks.

You don't care about Wis or Cha. Your ASI goes to Warcaster and Int.
You can start with 12/14/16/14/10/10 or 15/12/16/14/10/10 or 16/10/16/14/10/10 (If and only if you go for GFB).

Of course, you can consider the PAM + Warcaster + GFB/BB combo, but you must ponder how much it cost. 2 feats and probably the shield bonus to AC. Are you willing to sacrifice or delay a +2 to Int just for this combo?

[CTurbo]

Ah, the optimizer oriented chime in. That is cool. 🙃

This is a Mountain Dwarf Wizard who is a high faith character. Role Play over Optimization. 😀

Heavy Armor is “just” a 16 at start and an 18 with plate. With a DE of 10, this is good enough for defensive purposes. And some nice Mariner’s Armor (Plate) would be great characterization. Just saying. 😉

Melee is something it would be nice to avoid but sometimes you can’t avoid it. If he must fight this give him a “fighting chance” with a martial weapon, eventually Plate, and maybe a shield. War Priest and Channel Divinity add to that emergency combat. Add in SOF. AC 20 with Plate. Adequate, no?


Yeah I may be an optimizer at heart, but I can do flavor too. Flavor is actually really important to me. The thing is, a F1/W19 character with 10 Str and the PAM feat is neither optimized nor flavorful.

I love the idea of a Dwarf Wizard. Hell I love the idea of a Dwarf Sorcerer, but that's another story for another day. But the M Dwarf already comes prepackaged with medium armor proficiency so that's a huge investment to get heavy armor which is literally just +1 AC max over Half-Plate. Dwarfs also already get battleaxe, handaxe, light hammer, and warhammer proficiency.

Even if you did think a 1 level dip was worth the investment, Cleric is infinitely more suitable than Fighter both mechanically and thematically. Any of the Heavy Armor Prof domains would do although I think Forge fits the Dwarf theme best and it also offers the highest AC matching the Fighter with Defense. War is best if you actually want to be halfway somewhat almost decent in melee if you HAVE to since it at least gets you a second full attack with your bonus action every now and then. Tempest would be awesome for a lightning Dwarf and cool reaction ability.

ok lets flip back over the mechanics

F1 gets you full weapon and armor proficiencies, Con saves, Second Wind
C1 gets you full weapon and armor proficiencies, 3 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, a unique domain ability, and you'll be one slot ahead eventually getting an extra 7th level slot.

[ZorroGames]

Yeah I may be an optimizer at heart, but I can do flavor too. Flavor is actually really important to me. The thing is, a F1/W19 character with 10 Str and the PAM feat is neither optimized nor flavorful.

I love the idea of a Dwarf Wizard. Hell I love the idea of a Dwarf Sorcerer, but that's another story for another day. But the M Dwarf already comes prepackaged with medium armor proficiency so that's a huge investment to get heavy armor which is literally just +1 AC max over Half-Plate. Dwarfs also already get battleaxe, handaxe, light hammer, and warhammer proficiency.

Even if you did think a 1 level dip was worth the investment, Cleric is infinitely more suitable than Fighter both mechanically and thematically. Any of the Heavy Armor Prof domains would do although I think Forge fits the Dwarf theme best and it also offers the highest AC matching the Fighter with Defense. War is best if you actually want to be halfway somewhat almost decent in melee if you HAVE to since it at least gets you a second full attack with your bonus action every now and then. Tempest would be awesome for a lightning Dwarf and cool reaction ability.

ok lets flip back over the mechanics

F1 gets you full weapon and armor proficiencies, Con saves, Second Wind
C1 gets you full weapon and armor proficiencies, 3 cantrips, 2 1st level spells, a unique domain ability, and you'll be one slot ahead eventually getting an extra 7th level slot.

Yes, all valid points. All deserving serious consideration.

Flavor is fun but it can be hard work. I have a Forest Gnome Tempest Cleric 2/Illussionist 2 character and for a cynic like me it is fun but wearing to play 4 hours of “upbeat, high school cheerleader alto voiced optimist.” I channel a couple (male and female) high school cheerleaders from the 1960s I went to school with to play that character.

Some of these ideas are causing story ideas to coalesce in my brain. Thanks!