Minor buffs for shadowcaster? Why is it bad in the first place?

[Albions_Angel]

Hi all,

Putting together a website for my game world, because its getting hard to keep track of everything on the fly, and print everything out whenever I want to play. It will serve as a place for the general lore, pantheons, geography, hidden pages I can give people links to for hidden lore, campaign logs, and most importantly, my collection of homerules and homebrew fixes. From using Veils and Lines (from one of the popular Twitch D&D groups) to avoid certain topics, to changing the odd feat here and there, or modifying class abilities and spells.

These changes are not high op things. Without my changes, I have seen fighters perform just as well as wizards. People dont turn up to my games with preplanned super-TO builds. They just sort of turn up and plink away at enemies and have a bit of fun. I even saw a FANTASTIC monk build which was HUGELY effective, because he took the tripping ACF from UA and wore full plate. He couldnt get hit, and could trip almost anything. So thats the level of op I am going for.

So, to the thread. Tome of Magic is one of my favourite books, flavour-wise. And the Binder is a fantastic class. The truenamer, however, is awful, even for the powerlevel I am batting at. So it got some major changes. Its truenaming checks were made easier, the law of sequence removed and the law of resistance only applies against the same target, they get extra utterances. And I am giving them some free power word SLAs (because why not?). Not the best, but totally playable.

But that leaves shadowcasters. First up, remind me why they are bad, again? And what MINOR fixes would you make to boost them a little bit? Im not looking to rewrite EVERY mystery. But a change to make them usable more often across the board would be fine.

Cheers

[RedWarlock]

Hi all,

Putting together a website for my game world, because its getting hard to keep track of everything on the fly, and print everything out whenever I want to play. It will serve as a place for the general lore, pantheons, geography, hidden pages I can give people links to for hidden lore, campaign logs, and most importantly, my collection of homerules and homebrew fixes. From using Veils and Lines (from one of the popular Twitch D&D groups) to avoid certain topics, to changing the odd feat here and there, or modifying class abilities and spells.

These changes are not high op things. Without my changes, I have seen fighters perform just as well as wizards. People dont turn up to my games with preplanned super-TO builds. They just sort of turn up and plink away at enemies and have a bit of fun. I even saw a FANTASTIC monk build which was HUGELY effective, because he took the tripping ACF from UA and wore full plate. He couldnt get hit, and could trip almost anything. So thats the level of op I am going for.

So, to the thread. Tome of Magic is one of my favourite books, flavour-wise. And the Binder is a fantastic class. The truenamer, however, is awful, even for the powerlevel I am batting at. So it got some major changes. Its truenaming checks were made easier, the law of sequence removed and the law of resistance only applies against the same target, they get extra utterances. And I am giving them some free power word SLAs (because why not?). Not the best, but totally playable.

But that leaves shadowcasters. First up, remind me why they are bad, again? And what MINOR fixes would you make to boost them a little bit? Im not looking to rewrite EVERY mystery. But a change to make them usable more often across the board would be fine.

Cheers

Here's the homebrew fixes by Ari Marmell, the guy who wrote the SC (I think):

Source (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?184955-Shadowcaster-fixes-by-Mouseferatu)


I'll do you one better. I'll post the latest version, which has a few further tweaks from the one I posted a while back. It still needs playtesting, so I can't swear it's all going to work as written, but this where it stands now.

1) Charisma determines the DC to save against your mysteries. Intelligence determines the highest level mystery you can cast.

2) Grant bonus mysteries per day based on Charisma. These would work just like bonus spells. For instance, if your Cha is 14, you can cast one extra mystery of 1st-level equivalent and one of 2nd-level equivalent per day. (Note that each mystery does give an equivalent level, even though you don't learn them by level.)

3) Eliminate the rule that says you have to take mysteries in a given Path in order. If you want to jump around, so as to broaden your versatility, you can.

4) Within a category—Apprentice, Initiate, Master—you must have at least two mysteries of any given level before you can take any mysteries of the next higher level. For instance, you must have two 1st-level mysteries before you can take any 2nds, and at least two 2nds before you can take any 3rds.

5) Eliminate the rule that says you get a bonus feat equal to half the number of paths you have access to. Instead, you get a bonus feat equal to the total number of Paths you complete. Thus, while you are no longer required to take the entirety of a given Path, there's still encouragement to do so.

6) You may “swap out” mysteries, just as a sorcerer does spells known. If you “un-complete” a Path in this way, however, you lose access to the bonus feat you gained from completing that Path. (You can regain access by re-completing the Path, completing a different Path and choosing that feat as your new bonus, or selecting that feat as a normal feat at your next opportunity.)

7) Once your Apprentice Mysteries become supernatural abilities, change the save DC from 10 + equivalent spell level + Cha to 10 + 1/2 caster level + Cha. This makes them useful even against high-HD opponents, and follows the pattern for other supernatural abilities.

[The Viscount]

The shadowcaster isn't really bad. A lot of people dismiss it, but there's stuff worth doing with it (see Piggy Knowles's excellent Shadowcaster Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?268661-3-5-Pulvis-Et-Umbra-Sumus-The-Shadowcaster-Handbook)).
Many of a Shadowcaster's mysteries are essentially slightly stronger spells, but there are definite gems in there, including the online mysteries.
The Shadowcaster's biggest problem is actually a practical one. You have 1 use per day of each mystery when they're cast as spells. They eventually go up to 2 and then 3 for some, but that's very slow going. It's hardest at low levels when you know so few mysteries, especially since you can't increase the number known beyond the class's allotment, and you don't have any bonus mysteries.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Shadowcaster isn't bad, per se, it's just -very- weak in comparison with the prepared spellcasters that are the most obvious point of comparison.

[Albions_Angel]

So would buffing the per day limit be enough to fix it? 3/day for spells, 4/day for SLAs, 5/day for Su?

Or at first, one of your 3 fundamentals can be used an unlimited number of times? That still allows the buff at level 14 to come online for the others, but also ensures you always have SOMETHING you can fall back on (plink away with Arrow of Dusk for example).

[ColorBlindNinja]

So would buffing the per day limit be enough to fix it? 3/day for spells, 4/day for SLAs, 5/day for Su?

Or at first, one of your 3 fundamentals can be used an unlimited number of times? That still allows the buff at level 14 to come online for the others, but also ensures you always have SOMETHING you can fall back on (plink away with Arrow of Dusk for example).

One of the fixes I heard for them is to add "bonus spells" based on their casting stat.

Alternatively, you could make all their abilities at will; I doubt that'd break anything.

EDIT:

Another fix I recall was allowing them to take whatever mysteries they want without having to follow paths.

[Florian]

Oh, Shadowcasters...

Well... The base mechanics and choices are fine, nothing to complain there. Thing is, the lack of a +X casting per day mechanics really sucks, aka. bonus spells/day along the lines of the other full casters, but translated to spells/SLA/SU that SC progress along.

The class also needs an interface regarding mechanics that will add spells known and how to transfer that.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Shadowcasters are one of those classes I want to love, but are just too mechanically deficient to really enjoy playing. This is especially true at low levels. :smallfrown:

[Piggy Knowles]

As an addendum, as someone who has played two shadowcasters in decently long games, it definitely is not bad but its low levels are rough. The problem is threefold:


Super low number of mysteries per day. Starting with a single first level apprentice mystery is just painful; even a non-optimized wizard should have three first level spells thanks to bonus spells and specialization. A shadowcaster... gets one. That's it.
Early level mysteries have really low impact. Apprentice mysteries definitely aren't bad; there are some real gems there, even at low levels. But there isn't a single mystery that will have the encounter-turning impact of first level spells like color spray, sleep or grease at low levels. Even things like disguise self or silent image can be really important in an actual encounter. Meanwhile, shadowcaster first level mysteries just lack any such options. One or two will be a bit useful in most encounters but not that big of a deal (carpet of shadows, for instance... difficult terrain is cool and can help in most combats if used smartly but will rarely be the deciding factor in an encounter) to outright useless. And this is made worse because...
You're locked into underwhelming mysteries. Want the super cool flicker, one of the most unique and useful things a shadowcaster can do? Sucks that you have to lock yourself into two terrible mysteries to get there, at a time in your career when those terrible mysteries will represent a major percentage of your daily resources. And it's not just flicker that has this problem (though it's the most extreme case). Or take something like quicker than the eye. By the mid-levels it's probably the best first level mystery in the game and lets you do something really rare in 3.5. But at first level it kind of sucks because it relies on umbral hand to be good, and umbral hand only lasts a single round at that point. Except that if you want it in hopes of being good later on in your career, you pretty much have to take it during your first two levels.


Ari Marmell's fix definitely helps this, by the way. Bonus mysteries help the first issue a little, and allowing you to pick any mystery in a path and letting you retrain mysteries both help the third issue. It still won't be *strong* in the early levels, but it'll help. I might even go a bit further: up the skills to 6/day, add sleight of hand and listen to the list of class skills, and increase the use of fundamentals to 5/day. By shifting the focus a bit to skills, you can use the early level mysteries in the way that they are best: as cool ways to augment a stealthy, shadow-focused character, while slowly building up the magical elements.

[ColorBlindNinja]

As an addendum, as someone who has played two shadowcasters in decently long games, it definitely is not bad but its low levels are rough. The problem is threefold:


Super low number of mysteries per day. Starting with a single first level apprentice mystery is just painful; even a non-optimized wizard should have three first level spells thanks to bonus spells and specialization. A shadowcaster... gets one. That's it.
Early level mysteries have really low impact. Apprentice mysteries definitely aren't bad; there are some real gems there, even at low levels. But there isn't a single mystery that will have the encounter-turning impact of first level spells like color spray, sleep or grease at low levels. Even things like disguise self or silent image can be really important in an actual encounter. Meanwhile, shadowcaster first level mysteries just lack any such options. One or two will be a bit useful in most encounters but not that big of a deal (carpet of shadows, for instance... difficult terrain is cool and can help in most combats if used smartly but will rarely be the deciding factor in an encounter) to outright useless. And this is made worse because...
You're locked into underwhelming mysteries. Want the super cool flicker, one of the most unique and useful things a shadowcaster can do? Sucks that you have to lock yourself into two terrible mysteries to get there, at a time in your career when those terrible mysteries will represent a major percentage of your daily resources. And it's not just flicker that has this problem (though it's the most extreme case). Or take something like quicker than the eye. By the mid-levels it's probably the best first level mystery in the game and lets you do something really rare in 3.5. But at first level it kind of sucks because it relies on umbral hand to be good, and umbral hand only lasts a single round at that point. Except that if you want it in hopes of being good later on in your career, you pretty much have to take it during your first two levels.


Ari Marmell's fix definitely helps this, by the way. Bonus mysteries help the first issue a little, and allowing you to pick any mystery in a path and letting you retrain mysteries both help the third issue. It still won't be *strong* in the early levels, but it'll help. I might even go a bit further: up the skills to 6/day, add sleight of hand and listen to the list of class skills, and increase the use of fundamentals to 5/day. By shifting the focus a bit to skills, you can use the early level mysteries in the way that they are best: as cool ways to augment a stealthy, shadow-focused character, while slowly building up the magical elements.

Do you think the dual casting stats of the Shadowcaster is an issue? Should they get houseruled to just use CHA or INT?

[Florian]

Do you think the dual casting stats of the Shadowcaster is an issue?

Not that much. As with any GOD Wizard build, the key is avoiding that the enemy actually has saves, so the due stat setup doesn't come up that much.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not that much. As with any GOD Wizard build, the key is avoiding that the enemy actually has saves, so the due stat setup doesn't come up that much.

Still, it seems like an unnecessary drawback for an already troubled class.

I don't recall how many of the Shadowcaster's mysteries actually allow saving throws in the first place. Do you?

[Florian]

Still, it seems like an unnecessary drawback for an already troubled class.

I don't recall how many of the Shadowcaster's mysteries actually allow saving throws in the first place. Do you?

Oh, been ages since I've played one. Did the whole 3 part fear campaign thingie from lvl 1 and up and the class worked more than sufficiently, at least for my purposes.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Oh, been ages since I've played one. Did the whole 3 part fear campaign thingie from lvl 1 and up and the class worked more than sufficiently, at least for my purposes.

From level 1? My, you're brave! :smallsmile:

I strongly suspect that the optimization level of your group will influence how effective the Shadowcaster will be.

They do get some nice Mysteries; namely the ones that emulate Control Winds, Shadow Evocation and Time Stop.

[Florian]

From level 1? My, you're brave! :smallsmile:

I strongly suspect that the optimization level of your group will influence how effective the Shadowcaster will be.

They do get some nice Mysteries; namely the ones that emulate Control Winds, Shadow Evocation and Time Stop.

Sorry, autocorrect there. "fear" = Fearun, the campaign that starts in Cormyr.

Nah, your assumption is not correct. I've worked with my GM to allow entry into a slightly modified Jade Phoenix Mage based on Swordsage and Shadowcaster levels. Disregarding the two mundanes, we had fairly competent Cleric and Wizard in the party, It was pretty easy to overshadow them when it comes to actually using mysteries.

[Piggy Knowles]

Do you think the dual casting stats of the Shadowcaster is an issue? Should they get houseruled to just use CHA or INT?

I mean, it’s certainly not ideal, but it’s not crippling or anything. Realistically if you want to focus on mysteries involving saves, you just start with around a 13 Int and focus heavily on Charisma; getting up to the 19 required to use 9th-level mysteries by level 17 isn’t particularly arduous with items and other boosts. That said if you’re adding on Cha-based bonus mysteries, Charisma becomes a primary stat even if you don’t muck about with save-based powers, so that’s something to consider.

I certainly wouldn’t complain if it became a straight up Int-based caster though...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sorry, autocorrect there. "fear" = Fearun, the campaign that starts in Cormyr.

Nah, your assumption is not correct. I've worked with my GM to allow entry into a slightly modified Jade Phoenix Mage based on Swordsage and Shadowcaster levels. Disregarding the two mundanes, we had fairly competent Cleric and Wizard in the party, It was pretty easy to overshadow them when it comes to actually using mysteries.

Phoenix Mage would certainly help.


I mean, it’s certainly not ideal, but it’s not crippling or anything. Realistically if you want to focus on mysteries involving saves, you just start with around a 13 Int and focus heavily on Charisma; getting up to the 19 required to use 9th-level mysteries by level 17 isn’t particularly arduous with items and other boosts. That said if you’re adding on Cha-based bonus mysteries, Charisma becomes a primary stat even if you don’t muck about with save-based powers, so that’s something to consider.

I certainly wouldn’t complain if it became a straight up Int-based caster though...

I see, thank you for elaborating.

[DrMotives]

Sorry, autocorrect there. "fear" = Fearun, the campaign that starts in Cormyr.

Nah, your assumption is not correct. I've worked with my GM to allow entry into a slightly modified Jade Phoenix Mage based on Swordsage and Shadowcaster levels. Disregarding the two mundanes, we had fairly competent Cleric and Wizard in the party, It was pretty easy to overshadow them when it comes to actually using mysteries.

That's funny, I had a villain I was putting together for a future campaign arc. It's a ebon phoenix mage made with shadowcaster & swordsage too, with the base race being the giant raven from Frostburn. I'm building an inverted phoenix, basically.

[gorfnab]

I don't recall how many of the Shadowcaster's mysteries actually allow saving throws in the first place. Do you?
Over 20 of them. I actually pointed them out in the handbook below in my signature.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Over 20 of them. I actually pointed them out in the handbook below in my signature.

I see, that might be a good reason to boost your CHA, then.

[Yogibear41]

The shadowcaster's biggest flaw is poor endurance, aside from that they are fine.

The dual casting stat really isn't that bad, just boost the one that determines saves, and buy an item for the other one, as long as you start with at least a 13 in the one that determines what level you can cast should be fine, if you can start with a 15 or 17 its even easier.

You could always take a feat like Lost Tradition if you have to.

[Lans]

I would give it an additional mystery per level and give it additional mysteries based on high stats.

[CactusAir]

Main problem with shadowcaster is that it gives you so few uses per day, on top of not getting that many mysteries to begin with.

My preferred fix is to use the re-charge rules UA suggested as an option for 3.5 spellcasting.

Honestly too potent for regular spellcasting, but works fine with shadowcasting, and is thematically appropriate for a class which draws shadowstuff from the shadowplane. You have a constant trickle of shadowstuff refilling your reseviors.



Someone wrote it up here:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74519-Descent-of-Shadows-Project-Shadow-Returns&p=7859199&viewfull=1#post7859199


EDIT: yeah, also not having to follow paths and you get bonus feats for completing a path. That too.

No MAD, pls. CHA only, no INT.

[Fizban]

I like to think of myself as a champion of minor tweaks, and Shadowcaster is one for which I particularly dislike the common suggestions. Here's a link to my post from last time: link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?568697-Shadowcaster-BBEG-help&p=23360083&viewfull=1#post23360083).

[ZamielVanWeber]

Do you think the dual casting stats of the Shadowcaster is an issue? Should they get houseruled to just use CHA or INT?

I have played a few times with Ari's house rules and they are spot on in both feel and effectiveness. My absolute favorite part is the skyrocketing save DC for low level mysteries. You cannot deny the feeling of mysteries you love and have forgotten suddenly roaring into force with a save DC of 27.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I have played a few times with Ari's house rules and they are spot on in both feel and effectiveness. My absolute favorite part is the skyrocketing save DC for low level mysteries. You cannot deny the feeling of mysteries you love and have forgotten suddenly roaring into force with a save DC of 27.

I see, thank you for elaborating.

[Zaq]

They combine the worst aspects of prepared and spontaneous casting. They’re like prepped casters in that you can have the wrong number of a certain mystery available per day, ending up frustrated whether you have dead weight at the end of the day or simply no juice when under the gun. And they’re like spontaneous casters in that you have to decide at level-up, rather than at start of day, which tools are in your box. Add in the aforementioned low number of mysteries per day and you end up with a mess.

I’m fond of the concept of stapling on Eldritch Blast (and a few blast essences at appropriate levels) to give them a reliable fallback option, but I’ve never seen it tried in a real game.

People tend to frown on my “cross out all instances of ‘per day’ and write in ‘per encounter’ instead” idea, but that’s honestly where I’d go in a high-powered game. Even a mid-powered game if I didn’t expect to reach super-high levels.

[lightningcat]

While only one player ever used it (and the game fell apart at 3rd level), I allowed Ari's fix, with a couple of minor tweaks.
1) Bonus uses of each mystery based on Charisma. Not sure if that was Ari's intention, but that was how I originally read it.
2) Bonus mysteries known based off Intelligence. If you are going to MAD make both them primary stats matter.
3) Start with 4 fundimentals, and they become per encounter at 9th level.

[Lans]

I wanted to bring up that a lot of its abilities are better than the comparable spell, but it doesn't have any analogues to the most broken/strong spells. ie It gets a better version of the d3 cantrips command and mage hand but doesn't get color spray.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I wanted to bring up that a lot of its abilities are better than the comparable spell, but it doesn't have any analogues to the most broken/strong spells. ie It gets a better version of the d3 cantrips command and mage hand but doesn't get color spray.

I mean, Shadowcasters get a Time Stop analogue, but they really can't do much with it.

[CactusAir]

I once again put forth a suggestion for using the Unearthed Arcana Recharging (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7859199&postcount=152) mechanic for Shadowcaster instead of bonus spells for high Cha/Int.

Helps keep it distinct from Arcane casters, and with the errata nerfs, it really doesn't strike me as overpowered.

[Jowgen]

I personally actually don't think Shadowcasters are worth fixing, but better of having their parts harvested.

Take the mysteries and just make them spontaneous caster spells gated behind some set of additional requirements. Like a feat taken at first level, akin to the Shadow Weave Magic feat. Unlock fundamentals as cantrips as the base, each path has some sort of skill requirement, completing one unlocks the next level... something like that.

My point is, the Shadowcaster does not bring enough to the table to warrant its existence as a class. Best to just turn it into options for existing ones imo.

[peacenlove]

Seriously expand his spell list by at least 60 spells, mainly illusion ones. One of the shadowcaster woes is his really limited choices on mysteries.

Even the author suggests so here.
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?164005-Tome-of-Magic-Shadowcaster/page3&p=2863167&highlight=illusion#post2863167

Make the shadowcaster either an arcane or a divine caster, to open up some feat/prestige class choices. He already has a caster level so no significant rules issues should be brought up.
Up the duration of his touch/personal beneficial spells so they are actually usable in combat.

EDIT 2: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?74519-Descent-of-Shadows-Project-Shadow-Returns
This is a nice homebrew project that has a lot of feedback to it and makes sure to make the shadowcaster as versatile as any caster should be.