Scholar

[Fynzmirs]

Hi!
I'm new to D&D 5e though I've played 3.5 a lot. I want to create a scholar-type character and I honestly don't know where should I start. Sage background seems obvious, but beyond that - I have no idea.


Wizard would be fine except he isn't able to reliably cover Arcana, History, Nature and Religion and I care for these skills more than I do for spells. Also I am quite suprised how they were able to make a Diviner Wizard having only 1 class ability based on gathering information, and all the others just about this future, fate and luck nonsense. And boo, no expertise.

Bard may be ok mechanically, but it has a problem of being a Charisma-based class - I am interested in creating a bookworm, not a social juggernaut that also happens to know something.

Cleric is an option, but again - main ability being Wisdom not Intelligence does mess some things up. I tend to create low-Wisdom mad characters and an obsessed scholar is better than a regular one. Would it ok/balanced to make Knowledge Clerics Int-focused? It just... makes sense.

Are there any other/better options in official material or homebrew?

[JackPhoenix]

With lore bard, you can get away with low Cha if you focus on healing and buffing your team instead of using attack or save spells on your enemies. You'll limit yourself, but you'll still be effective. Same with knowledge cleric.

Wizard with 1 level knowledge cleric dip is great... you'll get armor proficiencies, access to cleric magic items, expertise and some cleric cantrips and level 1 spells you can upcast from multiclass slots if you want to. Still Wis 13.

If you want neither Cha or Wis in your multiclassing, you can dip into rogue for expertise, or go pure rogue (mastermind is great for that) if you want non-magical scholar. You'll have to get proficiencies elsewhere, though... you can get two from your background, and then take Skilled or Prodigy (assuming human or half-human). You can also go half-elf, and grab two lore skills from background and two from race. Prodigy also works on a pure wizard build.

However, I suggest asking your GM about the content of the campaign first. Lore skills don't get much use in some games, and the scholar may be wasting resources for little to no gain.

[Unoriginal]

Make a Rogue?

Inquisitive or Mastermind seems good subclasses for you.

[HappyDaze]

Wizard would be fine except he isn't able to reliably cover Arcana, History, Nature and Religion and I care for these skills more than I do for spells. ... And boo, no expertise.

A Wizard with proficiency in the four skills you mention and a high Intelligence (which is pretty much a given for a Wizard unless you're deliberately going against type) can reliably cover those skills. Expertise is a luxury, not a necessity. However, if you really want it, then Rogue is the way to go.

[Unoriginal]

A Wizard with proficiency in the four skills you mention and a high Intelligence (which is pretty much a given for a Wizard unless you're deliberately going against type) can reliably cover those skills. Expertise is a luxury, not a necessity. However, if you really want it, then Rogue is the way to go.

Or OP could play an human and get the Prodigy feat.

[Zorrah]

Or go half elf and use their free proficiency.

[Fynzmirs]

Thank you all for help!


With lore bard, you can get away with low Cha if you focus on healing and buffing your team instead of using attack or save spells on your enemies. You'll limit yourself, but you'll still be effective. Same with knowledge cleric.


I dunno… as far as I love bards they seem a bit to silly for this particular concept. How would I inspire my allies, by telling stories and saying "Stay awhile and listen"?.

Actually, that's a funny idea.


Wizard with 1 level knowledge cleric dip is great... you'll get armor proficiencies, access to cleric magic items, expertise and some cleric cantrips and level 1 spells you can upcast from multiclass slots if you want to. Still Wis 13.


Eh, stupid sanity.


Make a Rogue?

Inquisitive or Mastermind seems good subclasses for you.

Oh, I haven't thought about that one. While the features of both archetypes are nice and flavorful, playing a 60+ scholar (assuming human) would mean forgoing many rogue benefits. Although sneak attacking with books would be fun.
I tend to think of spells as my backup plan, to have a way to contribute when my knowledge fails. Would the abilities from these two subclasses be enough to do that?



Or OP could play an human and get the Prodigy feat.

Great find, I didn't know about this one.



Try this. I haven't played it, but it looks good. Someone or other recommended it to me.

That's... interesting. Not sure if that great for a 100% bookworm, but I might give it a try.


As a side note, what are some useful spells for gathering information in 5e?

[Unoriginal]

I tend to think of spells as my backup plan, to have a way to contribute when my knowledge fails. Would the abilities from these two subclasses be enough to do that?


Well, one of the Mastermind Rogue's signature ability let you use the Help action at distance, which is generally useful.

[Mercurias]

This seems like a good idea for a Knowledge Cleric if you want to invest in bumping your INT. That or an Inquisive or Arcane Trickster Rogue.

UA also has a Lore Wizard that might bear examination with the right Background and the Prodigy feat.

[Fynzmirs]

Isn't Lore Wizard just straight broken? I mean, changing saving throws...

A weird idea, what about playing a Theurgist of Knowledge? I heard that they are underpowered but are they unplayable?

[Zonugal]

You didn't mention a level, so I am going to use fifth-level as a base for my thoughts.

I think a simple build could be something akin to the following:

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/0c/fd/70/0cfd70525f5491f5bc3953b1c6d7d72b.jpg

The Sage
V.Human 'Mastermind' Rogue 1/'Knowledge Domain' Cleric 2/'Mastermind' Rogue 2 with the 'Sage' background
Str 8 (-1), Dex 14 (+2), Con 12 (+1), Int 17 (+3), Wis 14 (+2), Cha 10 (+0)
Skills: Arcana +9, Disguise Kit +3, Forgery Kit +3, Gaming Set (Dragon Chess) +3, History +9, Insight +5, Investigation +6, Nature +9, Perception +5, Religion +9, Stealth +5, & Thieves' Tools +3
Feats: Keen Mind
Languages: Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, & Primordial
Cantrips Known: Guidance, Mending, & Sacred Flame
Spells Commonly Prepared: Command*, Cure Wounds, Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, Guiding Bolt, & Identify*

This all culminates in a character who shouts advice about monsters weaknesses to his foes during combat (as Unoriginal pointed out above), while also handling all standard knowledge-needs, investigatory-needs, & linguistical-needs. The character can also grant themselves temporary proficiency with any skill or tool for ten minutes, once per short rest. In terms of spells, they can utilize some low-level Cleric spells like Detect Magic, Detect Poison and Disease, & Identify for scholarly/investigatory needs, while Guiding Bolt can help them set up for sneak attacks the following round of combat (and Cure Wounds is well... It's Cure Wounds, you're going to be happy you have it).

[Fynzmirs]

I really love this build yet I fail to see where to go after level 5. More rogue levels give me two nice abilities (Reliable talent and 9th level mastermind feature), but beyond that all I get is sneak attack (which I'm not interested in) and general survivability stuff. Getting more cleric levels kinda defeats the point of going rogue as I could go Theurgist of Knowledge Wizard 19/Knowledge Cleric 1 and get all 4 lore skill expertises on top of getting some useful high-level stuff (Legend Lore, Scrying, Demiplane for a library).

Heck, maybe I'll go with Mastermind 3/Theurgist of Knowledge Wizard 17, what do you think about this version? I wouldn't even have to be sane...

[Zonugal]

I really love this build yet I fail to see where to go after level 5. More rogue levels give me two nice abilities (Reliable talent and 9th level mastermind feature), but beyond that all I get is sneak attack (which I'm not interested in) and general survivability stuff. Getting more cleric levels kinda defeats the point of going rogue as I could go Theurgist of Knowledge Wizard 19/Knowledge Cleric 1 and get all 4 lore skill expertises on top of getting some useful high-level stuff (Legend Lore, Scrying, Demiplane for a library).

Heck, maybe I'll go with Mastermind 3/Theurgist of Knowledge Wizard 17, what do you think about this version? I wouldn't even have to be sane...

If your DM is okay with the Theurgist subclass for Wizards? Oh yeah, do it.

That's a solid build. And I'd suggest pulling Rogue to maybe 4th-level for the ability-boost/feat, but I don't know how badly you want 9th-level spells.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Would it ok/balanced to make Knowledge Clerics Int-focused? It just... makes sense.
Absolutely. If anything, it would be slightly weaker-- Wis saves are a lot more common (and nasty) than Int saves. You might also ask about an Int-based Warlock; the thematics are great and invocations like Eyes of the Rune Keeper would fit perfectly.

If your DM won't accept that swap... most of the published options have been touched on, but the UA Artificer might be just what you're looking for? The Alchemist subclass in particular-- you can pass out magic buffs to your allies and chuck bottles of acid at people like a mad scientist. I've got a less-crappy homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?573870-Artificer-Base-Class-Grod_the_giant-edition&p=23507826) version too.

[Sigreid]

If you really want to be ridiculous, go for a rogue/lore bard/cleric multi-class. Do it up right and you can have nearly every skill in the game, expertise on several skills (up to 10 I think) and half proficiency on any skills and tools you aren't proficient in. In the end, you wouldn't be super powerful guy as you level up but you can seem to know/be able to do everything competently. You'd kind of be the Swiss army knife of characters.

[Fynzmirs]

If your DM is okay with the Theurgist subclass for Wizards? Oh yeah, do it.

That's a solid build. And I'd suggest pulling Rogue to maybe 4th-level for the ability-boost/feat, but I don't know how badly you want 9th-level spells.

1. Huh? Shouldn't he? Are they too powerful?

2. Yeah, a feat would be better than 9th level spells. It's not like any of them would really help me. Demiplane for extraplanar library is the only high-level things I really need.


You might also ask about an Int-based Warlock; the thematics are great and invocations like Eyes of the Rune Keeper would fit perfectly.


Wow. Maybe that's the best way. Even without swapping, leaving Cha 14 and Wis 8 would give me this "rather insane but unsettlingly persuasive" look, especially with the Great Old One patron. I wouldn't really need more than 15 Warlock levels (Mystic Araneum - Demiplane). This leaves me with 5 empty levels, and I think something like Lore Mastery Wizard 2 (I don't think GM will ban it if I promise to only take 2 levels of this) would be perfect for expertises. So I could go with Warlock 18/Lore Mastery Wizard 2 or even Warlock 15/Lore Mastery Wizard 2/Mastermind Rogue 3 (for added combat efectiveness, as most spells would propably be utility spells).

There is a problem of Legend Lore not being a Warlock spell, but exchanging Dominate Person for it in the Great Old One spell list propably wouldn't infuriate any GM.


What are your opnions on this idea?


If your DM won't accept that swap... most of the published options have been touched on, but the UA Artificer might be just what you're looking for? The Alchemist subclass in particular-- you can pass out magic buffs to your allies and chuck bottles of acid at people like a mad scientist. I've got a less-crappy homebrew version too.


I really like crafters but not this time.

[Mercurias]

I looked at the Theurgist too while considering this. It’s better than my Lore Wizard idea, really, but it really would be DM dependant. As a Knowledge Theurge Wiz you’d be pretty set for a Sage type character, with flavorful spell selection and features.

If I were DMing your character, I would just go light on giving your character chances to inscribe the Wizard Spells in their domain list from other sources so they have to really invest to access the Cleric spell list. Give opportunities to copy down OTHER Wizard spells? Sure, if they look hard enough. It feels better to earn it, though.

[Unoriginal]

Maybe you could convince your DM to let you use the Expert Sidekick NPC class from the Sidekick UA?

They got proficiencies for days and expertise, and no sneak attack.

Since you don't seem very interested in the combat stuff, it may be your best bet.

Hell, you could start with an unconventional NPC statblock for added fun, like a Bullywug or a Kuo-toa.

[Tanarii]

Great Old One Warlock who delved a little too deep into forbidden knowledge, but isn't actually evil or a cultist.

Sage background has some great personality traits for this!

- I’m convinced that people are always trying to steal my secrets.
- Knowledge. The path to power and self-improvement is through knowledge. (Neutral)
- No Limits. Nothing should fetter the infinite possibility inherent in all existence. (Chaotic)
- I have an ancient text that holds terrible secrets that must not fall into the wrong hands.
- I sold my soul for knowledge. I hope to do great deeds and win it back.
- Most people scream and run when they see a demon. I stop and take notes on its anatomy.
- Unlocking an ancient mystery is worth the price of a civilization

Also note that Acolyte and Hermit backgrounds take a different look at what it means to be a Scholar.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Wow. Maybe that's the best way. Even without swapping, leaving Cha 14 and Wis 8 would give me this "rather insane but unsettlingly persuasive" look, especially with the Great Old One patron. I wouldn't really need more than 15 Warlock levels (Mystic Araneum - Demiplane). This leaves me with 5 empty levels, and I think something like Lore Mastery Wizard 2 (I don't think GM will ban it if I promise to only take 2 levels of this) would be perfect for expertises. So I could go with Warlock 18/Lore Mastery Wizard 2 or even Warlock 15/Lore Mastery Wizard 2/Mastermind Rogue 3 (for added combat efectiveness, as most spells would propably be utility spells).

There is a problem of Legend Lore not being a Warlock spell, but exchanging Dominate Person for it in the Great Old One spell list propably wouldn't infuriate any GM.


What are your opnions on this idea?
Seems solid. Remember that ability scores can be interpreted in different ways, and you can leave your Cha high and social skills lacking. Call it sort of a Manson-esque magnetism-- you're not especially good with words or presentable, but you hold people's eyes for way too long and speak way too intensely and they sometimes just find themselves agreeing with you so you'll go away.

[Unoriginal]

Can't you get Legend Lore as a ritual if you are a Tomelock?

[Vogie]

I'd also want to throw in a combination of Knowledge Cleric and Monster Hunter Ranger. You get all of the utility, but you mix in the prowess of someone who can use their knowledge to gain an upper hand. It's not as on-point as the Inquisitive, but you'd get the 'practical applications' of such knowledge.

I'd picture the character as a sort of OG Van Helsing character, or a Librarian from the tv show & tv-movies - a Jason Bourne-esque application of knowledge to both impart to others while occasionally smashing face.


Can't you get Legend Lore as a ritual if you are a Tomelock?

Legend Lore isn't a ritual spell, just a normal spell with a 10-minute cast time. However Seeker and Undying Warlocks get it on their expanded spell list

[Trustypeaches]

You could just go Wizard X / Knowledge Cleric 1.

A single level dip in cleric gets you a lot mechanically, but also your expertise in two knowledge skills of your choice.

[Jelkan]

On PHB 125 there is a small section on customizing your background. Basically you can choose a feature, two skills, and two languages or tool proficiencies(or one of each). You can make a pure wizard of any race and still get all four knowledge proficiencies (two from wizard, two from background).

Actually, the Sage background you mentioned gets two of the knowledge skills already. So you'd just have to choose the other two with your wizard skills. This seems somewhat obvious, so maybe there were some other skills you wanted in addition to the four knowledges? In that case, you can ignore my post.

[Tanarii]

On PHB 125 there is a small section on customizing your background. Basically you can choose a feature, two skills, and two languages or tool proficiencies(or one of each). You can make a pure wizard of any race and still get all four knowledge proficiencies (two from wizard, two from background).If you're not in AL, check with your DM before planning on doing this.

[Man_Over_Game]

Hi!
I'm new to D&D 5e though I've played 3.5 a lot. I want to create a scholar-type character and I honestly don't know where should I start. Sage background seems obvious, but beyond that - I have no idea.


Wizard would be fine except he isn't able to reliably cover Arcana, History, Nature and Religion and I care for these skills more than I do for spells. Also I am quite suprised how they were able to make a Diviner Wizard having only 1 class ability based on gathering information, and all the others just about this future, fate and luck nonsense. And boo, no expertise.

Bard may be ok mechanically, but it has a problem of being a Charisma-based class - I am interested in creating a bookworm, not a social juggernaut that also happens to know something.

Cleric is an option, but again - main ability being Wisdom not Intelligence does mess some things up. I tend to create low-Wisdom mad characters and an obsessed scholar is better than a regular one. Would it ok/balanced to make Knowledge Clerics Int-focused? It just... makes sense.

Are there any other/better options in official material or homebrew?

I implement this change (to allow alternative attributes) all the time in my own games. You want to be an Intelligence Cleric? Why not? There are some things I'm a bit strict about (A Wizard has to cast magic through Intelligence), but most other options, if they fit thematically, are good to go.

Alternatively, you can look into the Theurgy Wizard, which is someone who studies divine practices from a logical standpoint. It's in an Unearthed Arcana, and it allows a Wizard to gain the traits and spells of a Cleric domain (like Knowledge). That way, you can be an Intelligence-based Knowledge Cleric without any major homebrewery.

Lastly, you can take a look at the Arcane Trickster, grabbing the Ritual Caster feat. The Arcane Trickster uses a lot of Intelligence, and gains a lot of skills, so it can really fit in with what you're looking for. Treat his specialized mage hand as a tool taught to magical librarians that he used so much that he's more talented at using Mage Hand than most.

[HappyDaze]

You want to be an Intelligence Cleric? Why not? There are some things I'm a bit strict about (A Wizard has to cast magic through Intelligence), but most other options, if they fit thematically, are good to go.
Why is it OK for Clerics to power their magic with Intelligence but not for Wizards to power their magic with Wisdom? Perhaps their spellbooks are picture books with mind-opening mandalas that achieve intuitive understanding without analysis.

[Man_Over_Game]

Why is it OK for Clerics to power their magic with Intelligence but not for Wizards to power their magic with Wisdom? Perhaps their spellbooks are picture books with mind-opening mandalas that achieve intuitive understanding without analysis.

But that's a bit less intuitive. I'd be more inclined to make Sorcerers Wisdom-based rather than Wizards.

Wisdom is used to recognize subtleties in the world around you, or to resist falling prey to your own emotions. It's about knowing oneself.

Intelligence is more about learning by changing your mind to understand something else. Wizards do not recognize spells as "Healing", they recognize healing spells as "Evocation", for the power needed to create raw life energy, or "Necromancy", to channel it directly from one source to another. To them, magic is a form of science. On the flipside, Clerics generally don't care much about what the source of the spell's energy is, only what it provides and how they serve their God with it. I allow Intelligence for Clerics because I feel like they can excel through study, but I don't think that a Wizard who's in tune with their senses would be defined any different than a Sorcerer, Druid, or Cleric, so I just keep them as Intelligence.

[Kane0]

Either Wizard or Bard with a level in Knowledge Cleric ought to do it. Scholar background is a given, any race will do. I like the idea of being a Dwarf Ollam.