Melee Warlock

[KyleG]

Just a quick couple of question and then happy to delete post.
Is a melee based hexblade pack of the Blade warlock viable starting with 12 total in charisma
Dex 15 Con 15 Cha 12 or Dex 16 Con 14 Cha12
Vs
Dex 15 Con 14 Cha 14

I know its spellcaster class but the warlock patron is thematically appropriate as too is having less Charisma.
With ASIs im happy to add Charisma along the way although i was thinking of picking up Dual Wielder and/or Elven Accuracy.
does it become more viable with a 1/2 level dip in Fighter for a fighting style?

[JNAProductions]

You can't multiclass out of Warlock with only a 12 in Charisma. You need a 13+.

Also, FYI, you can't delete threads. Only mods can do that.

[KyleG]

But I could ASI the Charisma at 4 or 8 before. its not what I would probably want to do but I thought it might make him better at melee. thanks for the heads up.

[Chuupag]

I don't have my books in front of me, but doesn't hexblade or pact of the blade let you use your Cha for your melee attacks. It would seem like you're trying to fill 2 buckets that are getting you alot of the same stuff trying to push Dex over Cha in that scenario.

[Misterwhisper]

Also there is no real reason to have dex that high, a 14 is plenty, they have medium armor.

I would go max cha, some ok Dex, Con and Wis, dump str and keep int at 10.

[KyleG]

Also there is no real reason to have dex that high, a 14 is plenty, they have medium armor.

I would go max cha, some ok Dex, Con and Wis, dump str and keep int at 10.

the other stats are fixed only these three are subject to change.
yes medium armor can only add +2 from dex but my finesse weapons can still gain from the higher dex.
or I move the +1 racial (half elf) from dex to Con = Dex 14 Con 16 Cha 12

It still begs the question...for a melee build what do I lose by dropping from 14 to 12 at least until Level 4 and or 8. or what is the advantage to keeping at 14 and continuing to stack more at level 4 and/or 8?

[Misterwhisper]

the other stats are fixed only these three are subject to change.
yes medium armor can only add +2 from dex but my finesse weapons can still gain from the higher dex.
or I move the +1 racial (half elf) from dex to Con = Dex 14 Con 16 Cha 12

It still begs the question...for a melee build what do I lose by dropping from 14 to 12 at least until Level 4 and or 8. or what is the advantage to keeping at 14 and continuing to stack more at level 4 and/or 8?

If you are not going to have a good cha why are you playing a hex blade?

[Grod_The_Giant]

The Hexblade is crazy powerful precisely because you can/I] be an strong melee fighter without having to accept a low Charisma and dip Fighter-- Hex Warrior means that you're using the same stat to swing your sword as you do to cast your spells. That said, you [I]can be effective without doing so; the Warlock list has plenty of great spells that work just as well with low Cha, from Hex and Armor of Agathys all the way to Foresight and Power Word: Kill. So I'd go with Dex 14/Con 14/Cha 15 if possible; or Dex 15/Con 14/Cha 14 if not.

[sophontteks]

the other stats are fixed only these three are subject to change.
yes medium armor can only add +2 from dex but my finesse weapons can still gain from the higher dex.
or I move the +1 racial (half elf) from dex to Con = Dex 14 Con 16 Cha 12

It still begs the question...for a melee build what do I lose by dropping from 14 to 12 at least until Level 4 and or 8. or what is the advantage to keeping at 14 and continuing to stack more at level 4 and/or 8?

Hexblades have an ability that allows charisma to be used instead of dex for your weapons.

[KyleG]

If you are not going to have a good cha why are you playing a hex blade?

because the character made a deal with a devil so to speak. But he is not a spellcaster being much more direct.

It seems I would be foolish to reduce the charisma below 14 so I shall (as I had originally in my mind) flavor that Charisma as the strength of will to see things done, then do 14 DEX and 15 CON Then decide on feat at 4 and ASI or feat at 8.
I start with max AC with my 14 DEX, and a +2 to attacks from CHA
Any extra in DEX would be redundant as the focus becomes on CHA, but the extra point in CON means we can ASI in more later if we want.
ASIs in no particular order (suggestions welcome)
1. elven accuracy to bring con to 16
2. dual weapon (for bonus action usage, or leave for ???)
3. CHR
4. CHR
5. CHR or CON

[Petrocorus]

because the character made a deal with a devil so to speak. But he is not a spellcaster being much more direct.


What you're describing and that you seems to want do not fit an Hexblade.

You look more like you'd want a multiclass Fighter/Warlock and doing mostly melee.
In this case, you'd rather start with Fighter 1 / Fiend Warlock 3 / Fighter +X. With Str 10/ Dex 16/ Con 14/ Int 10/ Wis 12/ Cha 14 to start.
And you don't really need Pact of the Blade unless you want only a few levels of Fighter.

You do need a Cha of 14 because it's required for multiclassing and your class feature depends on it.
If you're set on the Hexblade in order to drop your Cha to 12, then you're depriving yourself of using of the very feature that the Hexblade is used for. So what's the point of going Hexblade? The point of the Hexblade is to be SAD, so Dex 14 and Cha 16 to start and all the ASI you can spare in Cha.

We need more infos to gives you a better advice. In what setting do you play? Have you decided the subrace? Are you set on elf? At what level do you start? At what level do you think you'll go? What kind of roles do you want to fill with your character?

[Prince Vine]

You can make deals without being a warlock if you wanted to.

[KyleG]

What you're describing and that you seems to want do not fit an Hexblade.

You look more like you'd want a multiclass Fighter/Warlock and doing mostly melee.
In this case, you'd rather start with Fighter 1 / Fiend Warlock 3 / Fighter +X. With Str 10/ Dex 16/ Con 14/ Int 10/ Wis 12/ Cha 14 to start.
And you don't really need Pact of the Blade unless you want only a few levels of Fighter.

You do need a Cha of 14 because it's required for multiclassing and your class feature depends on it.
If you're set on the Hexblade in order to drop your Cha to 12, then you're depriving yourself of using of the very feature that the Hexblade is used for. So what's the point of going Hexblade? The point of the Hexblade is to be SAD, so Dex 14 and Cha 16 to start and all the ASI you can spare in Cha.

We need more infos to gives you a better advice. In what setting do you play? Have you decided the subrace? Are you set on elf? At what level do you start? At what level do you think you'll go? What kind of roles do you want to fill with your character?

Mostly melee, absolutely. Set on the Charisma drop...nope as I said I can flavour that, I was just exploring options. Ive already setup by Hexblade patron and his plans for the Character. When this character enters a campaign Ill discuss that more with the DM.

thanks to all for setting me straight.

[sophontteks]

I think its safe to say that it's not viable because you are dumping the stat that dictates almost every aspect of your class, and you are getting almost nothing back in exchange.

But its probably not unplayable. I do, however, think multiclassing will make it unplayable.

Your already under the scale. It will be even more rough if you miss getting a second attack and third level spells at level 5. This is the time leveling really starts to slow down too, so it could make up a significant part of your characters career.

[Petrocorus]

Mostly melee, absolutely. Set on the Charisma drop...nope as I said I can flavour that, I was just exploring options. Ive already setup by Hexblade patron and his plans for the Character. When this character enters a campaign Ill discuss that more with the DM.

thanks to all for setting me straight.
So if you're set on the Hexblade, then i need to tell you again that Cha must be your highest stat.

You don't really need Pact of the Blade if you don't want to use Heavy Weapon. GFB will do more damage than two attacks with a longsword in many cases. Chain/Tome allows a lot of better and more versatile options. Blade allows 2 attacks with PAM/GWM and Eldritch Smite for max melee damages. Your choice depending on your tastes and the party composition.

With Dex 14, you can get AC 13 at level 1; AC 16 after some earnings (studded leather plus shield); AC 18 or 19 (depending on your need for stealth) with money (400 or 750 GP). You don't need Str. You don't need more than 10 in Int.

You don't need to multiclass normally.

Consider Resilient (Con) and/or Warcaster.

[KyleG]

Yeah I think ill make it work starting with the 14 dex / 15 con / 14 cha starting.
Ill see how things play out. Hopefully play out a bit of backstory

[Malifice]

Just a quick couple of question and then happy to delete post.
Is a melee based hexblade pack of the Blade warlock viable starting with 12 total in charisma
Dex 15 Con 15 Cha 12 or Dex 16 Con 14 Cha12
Vs
Dex 15 Con 14 Cha 14

I know its spellcaster class but the warlock patron is thematically appropriate as too is having less Charisma.
With ASIs im happy to add Charisma along the way although i was thinking of picking up Dual Wielder and/or Elven Accuracy.
does it become more viable with a 1/2 level dip in Fighter for a fighting style?

You use Charisma in melee as well.

Its what Hexblades are famous for.

[Quietus]

Mostly melee, absolutely. Set on the Charisma drop...nope as I said I can flavour that, I was just exploring options. Ive already setup by Hexblade patron and his plans for the Character. When this character enters a campaign Ill discuss that more with the DM.

thanks to all for setting me straight.

Is there any reason you couldn't take a different patron, and use pact of the blade through that? If you want to go low Charisma, as others have pointed out, you can easily just use spells that don't rely on it. Rely on your dex for attacking, and for AC (permanent mage armor invocation, maybe, when your dex is high enough?) - or if you get that 13 Cha to multiclass, dip a single level of Fighter to get the dual wield fighting style, plus medium armor/shields. Then roll with a different patron, maybe take advantage of the temp HP from Fiend.

[Joe the Rat]

To be fair, Crap Charisma Hexblade can work fine - martial weapon and medium armor proficiency are valuable and viable for a melee fighter. Strength melee loses the least due to the heavy weapons restrictions on Cha-fighting, but dexing still works.

Blade pact may yet be preferable, as a non-spell focused weapon lock will enjoy the pocket paladin / fake rogue Eldritch Smite option.

[KyleG]

Is there any reason you couldn't take a different patron, and use pact of the blade through that? If you want to go low Charisma, as others have pointed out, you can easily just use spells that don't rely on it. Rely on your dex for attacking, and for AC (permanent mage armor invocation, maybe, when your dex is high enough?) - or if you get that 13 Cha to multiclass, dip a single level of Fighter to get the dual wield fighting style, plus medium armor/shields. Then roll with a different patron, maybe take advantage of the temp HP from Fiend.

He was originally fiend but someone suggested hexblade to me and I liked the idea once I had played a bit. But maybe I need to revisit that part of the equation.

[Vogie]

A little louder for people in the back - You are NOT REQUIRED to use the charisma conversion of Hex Warrior.

For example, if you're using Armor of Shadows, or you want the maximum amount for dexterity checks and saving throws, want to use nonmagical longbows without wasting an invocation on Improved pact weapon, or any combination thereof. If you have high dexterity, but low or negative strength, you can use the charisma conversion for melee non-finesse weapons, but dexterity for your other weapons, that works too.

Grabbing a Fighting style with 1 level in fighter or 2 levels in paladin (provided your strength is high enough) could be useful once you have over 13 Charisma

[Fryy]

ASIs in no particular order (suggestions welcome)
1. elven accuracy to bring con to 16
2. dual weapon (for bonus action usage, or leave for ???)
3. CHR
4. CHR
5. CHR or CON

Just to advise... You cannot use Elven Accuracy to boost Con by +1. You can only use Elven Accuracy to boost one attribute which is not Str or Con... because Elves are not strong or conscientious, I guess.

If you want to dual-wield and use charisma for attack/damage on two different weapons, then I think you also need Pact of the Blade. Hexblade only allows you to substitute charisma for attack/damage on one weapon. Pact of the blade allows you to extend the Hexblade benefit to any pact weapon. So... you could apply charisma to you chosen Hexblade weapon and also to your pact weapon.

[KyleG]

Just to advise... You cannot use Elven Accuracy to boost Con by +1. You can only use Elven Accuracy to boost one attribute which is not Str or Con... because Elves are not strong or conscientious, I guess.

If you want to dual-wield and use charisma for attack/damage on two different weapons, then I think you also need Pact of the Blade. Hexblade only allows you to substitute charisma for attack/damage on one weapon. Pact of the blade allows you to extend the Hexblade benefit to any pact weapon. So... you could apply charisma to you chosen Hexblade weapon and also to your pact weapon.

Must have got mixed up along the way. Oops.
So in pretty set on some sort of double weapon fighting but maybe less committed to patron than I first thought. Ive seen people calculating damage outputs and wondering if I could get an idea off what things would look like by level 5 under the below conditions.
So being a half elf and including racials id start with 2x14s 1x15 in dex,con and chr. (Numbers are fixed, where they go less so)
OPTIONS:
1. Dipped 1 level for twf style.
2. dipped and took feat dual weapon.
3. no dip but feat dual weapon
4. Elven accuracy at 4 instead still attacking with bonus action weapon attack
5. Long sword attack + a bonus action attack cantrip (if there is one available to a warlock)
6. Or a rogue dip.

I want this guy to be directly combative in action and bonus if possible.

[Petrocorus]

What universe do you pay in?

Because the Valenar double scimitar and the Revenant Blade feat looks like what you're looking for, with less investment.

Valenar elf (or half-elf if the DM allows it) with this would need no dip and a single feat investment.

[KyleG]

What universe do you pay in?

Because the Valenar double scimitar and the Revenant Blade feat looks like what you're looking for, with less investment.

Valenar elf (or half-elf if the DM allows it) with this would need no dip and a single feat investment.

Nope no Eberon at this stage.

So the more i read the more i find that no one thinks that dual wielding should be considered in its 5e form.
Therefore that leaves a dip to fighter for TWF or another bonus action use. As it makes sense to take advantage of Hex perhaps just using a dagger for a bonus action attack on SOME occasions makes more and look for a bonus action cantrip/spell to use each turn and go one handed.
This character is not a shield carrier so dont want to carry a shield but neither is he carrying around a massive glaive or halberd. A Longsword/Shortsword/Rapier seem appropriate. He'll probably have EB for range as an action, even im not silly enough to ignore the best cantrip for combat (so they say)

[Vogie]

So the more i read the more i find that no one thinks that dual wielding should be considered in its 5e form.
Therefore that leaves a dip to fighter for TWF or another bonus action use. As it makes sense to take advantage of Hex perhaps just using a dagger for a bonus action attack on SOME occasions makes more and look for a bonus action cantrip/spell to use each turn and go one handed.
This character is not a shield carrier so dont want to carry a shield but neither is he carrying around a massive glaive or halberd. A Longsword/Shortsword/Rapier seem appropriate. He'll probably have EB for range as an action, even im not silly enough to ignore the best cantrip for combat (so they say)

That's not entirely true. Spells like hex or Bestow Curse means that your 2nd attack is going to be more powerful than the average jo's 2nd attack. Doubly so if you are using a rogue dip, or have your Hexblade's curse on the target, as it more attacks = more potential crits & more potential sneak attack hits.

There aren't a huge amount of bonus action spells in the Warlock lists. If you do want to go in that direction, a 3 level dip into sorcerer to be able to quicken your normal spells, allowing you to Attack Twice, then cast a Bonus action Spell using the Quicken Spell Metamagic.

Something you can do if your Pact weapon is light (or you have the DW feat), is you can have your normal pact weapon, then use Shadow Blade as your offhand weapon. While it cannot be combined with Hex OR Darkness (as it too is a concentration spell), it is effectively a one-handed greatsword... but better, as it deals 2d8 damage instead of 2d6 and deals psychic damage instead of slashing.

[Keravath]

You can build all sorts of very effective melee warlocks

It sounds like you want to use a TWF one ... so a one level fighter dip at some point for the fighting style might be desired. If you start fighter you can also get a con saving throw proficiency which will help a lot wiith maintaining concentration in melee.

Elven accuracy is only of any use of you can regularly generate advantage. This makes it sound like you might be planning to use darkness+devils sight on a regular basis because there aren't many options besides knocking a target prone that will generate advantage reliably and your build doesn't seem to have any effective way to knock a target prone.

Another good melee option is to go variant human and take PAM at first level and GWM at 4th. Combined with darkness+devils sight and it can put out a lot of melee damage in a very short amount of time.

Keep in mind that darkness+devil's sight, hex and shadow blade are all mutually exclusive due to concentration.

Finally, as others have said, charisma is the defining stat for a warlock, especially a hexblade. Dumping charisma is probably not ideal when you can use it as your attack stat and max it out to make both melee and spells most effective.

[Petrocorus]

Nope no Eberon at this stage.

So the more i read the more i find that no one thinks that dual wielding should be considered in its 5e form.
Therefore that leaves a dip to fighter for TWF or another bonus action use. As it makes sense to take advantage of Hex perhaps just using a dagger for a bonus action attack on SOME occasions makes more and look for a bonus action cantrip/spell to use each turn and go one handed.
This character is not a shield carrier so dont want to carry a shield but neither is he carrying around a massive glaive or halberd.

For a Vuman Fighter in level 1 to 3, TWF can be the very best style. But in terms of damages output, it falls behind the other styles quite rapidly after this. Notably because PAM, and potentially GWM offers its main advantage too.

As Vogie as said, it still has its perks.

You should remember it is not compatible with GFB.

Now, if you don't want to use polearms, nor heavy weapon, nor shield, there is not much other style of melee left.

Concerning the bonus action cantrip, the only ones i know are Shillegagh and Magic Stone. You won't be using this much.