Vengeance Paladin... Dip Blood Hunter or Fighter

[Zetram]

My character is a lvl 7 Dragonborn Vengeance Paladin that has the Polemaster feat. Our group is ranged heavy with 2 Gloomstalkers and a wizard, but we have a Bear Barbarian tanking and an assassin as well.

I'm about to hit 8 and will take +2 STR to max out. I am thinking about dipping to get the additional fighting style (Great Weapon Fighting). I'm Looking toward an eventual level 20 build.

My options are Fighter:
-Get the style with only one level!
-Action Surge would be great

or Blood Hunter:
-Additional damage from Crimson Rite that I can put on both ends of my Halberd!
-Blood curses are okay...
-Hexblade spells at level 3 are the big draw for me here (Warlock Cantrips).

Another caveat is that I'm a bit of an off-tank, so auras are important and going 3 deep into anything would mean losing Aura Improvements. I'm not sure how much I really need that additional 20' radius though.

I guess the big question is: How good is Improved Auras?

[Benny89]

I will be honest, none of those options seems optimized or good idea for Vengeance Paladin. Unless you just want to go there for roleplay reason- then pick what you feel is more cool. However:

If you think 1 level dip- you don't get much value of it from above classes by pushing your progress and final ASI by 1 level imo. If you talk about 4 level dip (to not lose ASI) I don't know about Blood Hunter as it is unofficial class so I don't know what does it do but I don't think it can beat Sorcerer.

However in my opinion if you want to do 1 level dip: Hexblade is best 1 level dip for Vengeance Paladin imo, as for only 1 level you get:

1. Curse - which synergize greatly with Vow of Enmity in long battle vs big boss or when you already have advantage from other source.
2. You get Warlock cantrips which means: Eldricht Blast and Lighting Lure. First one give you free to spam range magic attack which also works great with Hunter's Mark as each beam is seperate attack so Hunter's Mark adds 1k6 dmg and Lightning Lure synergize well with PAM + Relentless Avenger to not let enemy escape from you.
3. You get Shield spell- extremely good for Paladin. +5 AC on reaction when you know big hit is coming is absolutely great.
4. You get one level 1 spell slot that you regain on short rest- which is a great slot to use for spells like Hunter's Mark or Bless as they are becoming short-rest spells at this point which is good way to regain it between some fights without loosing your precious spell slots. And since Bless, Hunter's Mark are among your most used spells- it's very convinient for Paladin.

And all of that for just 1 level dip.

If you want to do 4 level dip I would suggest (though I am still against 4 level dip for Paladin but if you have to): Sorcerer.

You get 4 levels of caster which means one extra high level spell slot for Smite later, a lot of cantrips, level 1 and 2 Sorcerer spells (including Shield) + 4 Sorcerer points which you can use for two quickened spells like Hold Person. You will be only able to do combo Hold Person -> Attacks twice per long rest however it's extremely potent combo for Vengeance Paladin. You don't stop your spell slot progression though you would have to finish 4 levels of Sorcerer now to later enjoy Quickened Spells combo as if you go 4 levels later - it would be too late too slow to feel impact.

I wouldn't suggest Fighter as Paladin dip as 1 level gives you nothing and more levels you lose caster progression and higher level spell slots that are needed for more smites if you take 4 levels. If you take less that 4 but more than 1 you lose one ASI which is bad as Dragonborn you are already one ASI short compare to Variant Human.

So I would not even look at Fighter and go for either: 1 level dip in Hexblade or 4 levels dip Sorcerer.

Since you are 7 level Paladin it's already to late imo to try to go Sorcadin but if you just got 7 level I would take a look at Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 Sorcadin build. For more Sorcadin info I recommend this guide: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?502673-Unlimited-Blade-Works-The-Guide-to-the-Ultimate-Paladin-Sorcerer-Multiclass

But if you really need to chose between those- I would go with Fighter 4 levels to not miss ASI and take Champion for 19-20 crits to combo automatically with your Vow of Enmity. Keep in mind you lose a lot of your caster progress. You will have Action Surge for 2 more attacks in turn but lower numbers of smites to pair that up with.

[Zetram]

I will be honest, none of those options seems optimized or good idea for Vengeance Paladin. Unless you just want to go there for roleplay reason- then pick what you feel is more cool. However:

If you think 1 level dip- you don't get much value of it from above classes by pushing your progress and final ASI by 1 level imo. If you talk about 4 level dip (to not lose ASI) I don't know about Blood Hunter as it is unofficial class so I don't know what does it do but I don't think it can beat Sorcerer.

I'm not trying to dip only one though. The difference is that by dipping 2 I don't lose Improved Auras, which is really what I'm asking I guess. How good is Improved Auras? Though I get your point that you don't see it as worthwhile unless I go all the way to 4.



However in my opinion if you want to do 1 level dip: Hexblade is best 1 level dip for Vengeance Paladin imo, as for only 1 level you get:

1. Curse - which synergize greatly with Vow of Enmity in long battle vs big boss or when you already have advantage from other source.
2. You get Warlock cantrips which means: Eldricht Blast and Lighting Lure. First one give you free to spam range magic attack which also works great with Hunter's Mark as each beam is seperate attack so Hunter's Mark adds 1k6 dmg and Lightning Lure synergize well with PAM + Relentless Avenger to not let enemy escape from you.
3. You get Shield spell- extremely good for Paladin. +5 AC on reaction when you know big hit is coming is absolutely great.
4. You get one level 1 spell slot that you regain on short rest- which is a great slot to use for spells like Hunter's Mark or Bless as they are becoming short-rest spells at this point which is good way to regain it between some fights without loosing your precious spell slots. And since Bless, Hunter's Mark are among your most used spells- it's very convinient for Paladin.

And all of that for just 1 level dip.

These are good points that I didn't consider.



Since you are 7 level Paladin it's already to late imo to try to go Sorcadin but if you just got 7 level I would take a look at Paladin 6/Sorcerer 14 Sorcadin build. For more Sorcadin info I recommend this guide.

Interesting, but seems to be a completely different style and role than what I'm looking to play.

[Benny89]

Actually by dipping four you lose an ASI, the same as dipping 2. The difference is that by dipping 2 I don't lose Improved Auras, which is really what I'm asking I guess. How good is Improved Auras? Though I get your point that you don't see it as worthwhile unless I go all the way to 4.



These are good points that I didn't consider.



Interesting, but seems to be a completely different style and role than what I'm looking to play.

You don't lose ASI if you do 4 level dip:

16 levels of Paladin give you ASI at:

4 lvl, 8th lvl, 12 lvl and 16 lvl

4 levels of Sorcerer give you one ASI:

1 lvl- nothing, 2- nothing, 3- nothing , 4 lvl- ASI

That means by going 16 Paladin/4 Sorcerer you get total of 5 ASI.

Now if you go pure Paladin you get ASI at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19 lvl, which is: 5 ASI too.

You lose ASI if you take more than 1 lvl (as last ASI of Paladin is on 19th level so 1 dip doesn't take that) or less than 4 (because each class gets first ASI at level 4). So to not lose ASI: level 1 dip or 4 levels dip in your case.

As for Improved Aura: depends on party composition. If I had at least 2 more close-combat fighters the improved aura (30 feet) is really good. But if I have one only or rest of my party being casters and ranger characters that usually stick to around 40-60 feet when possible- not good.

Also if you will use Hasted Pegasus once you get Find Greater Steed- your allies won't have much time in your improved aura range at all. If you will use all your mobility you have on Vengeance Paladin: 60 feet movement speed on Haste, 120 feet dash, 500 feet Dimensional Door teleport, 60 feet movement + 30 feet Misty Step teleport, hasted Pegasus, Relentless Avenger + Haste for free 30 feet movement after Opportunity Attack etc. - you won't see much usage of Improved Aura as you will be far away from teammates quite a lot. Mobility and speed is one of Vengeance Paladin traits.

[Zetram]

You don't lose ASI if you do 4 level dip:

16 levels of Paladin give you ASI at:

4 lvl, 8th lvl, 12 lvl and 16 lvl

4 levels of Sorcerer give you one ASI:

1 lvl- nothing, 2- nothing, 3- nothing , 4 lvl- ASI

That means by going 16 Paladin/4 Sorcerer you get total of 5 ASI.

Now if you go pure Paladin you get ASI at 4, 8, 12, 16 and 19 lvl, which is: 5 ASI too.

You lose ASI if you take more than 1 lvl (as last ASI of Paladin is on 19th level so 1 dip doesn't take that) or less than 4 (because each class gets first ASI at level 4). So to not lose ASI: level 1 dip or 4 levels dip in your case.

Oh my mistake.

What I meant was against dipping 1 or 4 levels. You still lose 1 ASI compared to full Paladin. I also understand if you dip 3 you might as well go 4.

EDIT: Though I would lose my 5th level spells

[Benny89]

Oh my mistake.

What I meant was against dipping 1, 2, or 4 levels. You still lose 1 ASI compared to full Paladin.

You don't lose ASI with dipping 1 or 4 levels. You just delay 1 ASI by one level. Meaning your last ASI will be at 20 level instead of 19.

You only lose ASI in your case if you do 3 or 2 levels dip.

[Zanthy1]

Improved Auras is almost as good as the auras themselves. Paladin Auras are truly amazing, with the only real downside being how close everyone has to bunch up to get them. With this you can have your ranged people 30ft behind you (well out of range for most encounters, and the ones ith larger spells could still help). Auras also work even without looking at them, so if they are hiding up a tree or something they can still gain the benefits.

I would also note that by multiclassing out of paladin you miss out on one of the Top capstones in 5e. The only other one I can think of that rivals the paladin capstone is the druid.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Dipping 1 or 2 levels of Blood Hunter is the trappiest trap option that ever trapped anyone in a trap. The problem is their Crimson Rite ability: you'll get a +1d4 typed damage bonus to all your attacks, but activating it requires taking damage (and reducing your max HP) equal to your total character level not just your Blood Hunter level. So the trade-off just keeps getting worse as you level up in your main class, with a higher cost for activating a power that's not scaling up any more.

[Benny89]

Improved Auras is almost as good as the auras themselves. Paladin Auras are truly amazing, with the only real downside being how close everyone has to bunch up to get them. With this you can have your ranged people 30ft behind you (well out of range for most encounters, and the ones ith larger spells could still help). Auras also work even without looking at them, so if they are hiding up a tree or something they can still gain the benefits.

I would also note that by multiclassing out of paladin you miss out on one of the Top capstones in 5e. The only other one I can think of that rivals the paladin capstone is the druid.

I am a die hard fan of Vengeance Paladin but this Oath captsone is actually not that great. It's not bad. It's good, better I think than some other Oaths captones, however it's nothing to really wait 20 levels for (in case of Vengeance). I think that 1 level dip in Hexblade will give him more tools to play with and will be more useful through all 19 levels.

[Zetram]

Dipping 1 or 2 levels of Blood Hunter is the trappiest trap option that ever trapped anyone in a trap. The problem is their Crimson Rite ability: you'll get a +1d4 typed damage bonus to all your attacks, but activating it requires taking damage (and reducing your max HP) equal to your total character level not just your Blood Hunter level. So the trade-off just keeps getting worse as you level up in your main class, with a higher cost for activating a power that's not scaling up any more.

Thanks, bro. You saved my life.


I am a die hard fan of Vengeance Paladin but this Oath captsone is actually not that great. It's not bad. It's good, better I think than some other Oaths captones, however it's nothing to really wait 20 levels for (in case of Vengeance). I think that 1 level dip in Hexblade will give him more tools to play with and will be more useful through all 19 levels.

I agree, that it sounds cool in all, but I don't think it's practically all that effective. Except maybe the menacing aura, but that's not a huge loss as I could take Dragon Fear to get a taste of that.