Slashing Flourish & Sweeping Attack; Any Riders Apply?

[PeteNutButter]

Sweeping Attack (the BM move) and it's slightly superior cousin Slashing Flourish (Swords Bard), are both odd abilities that cause you to deal a bit of splash damage with an attack. The damage of these abilities is set, relatively low, with similar wording, though perhaps slightly looser on Slashing Flourish. My question is simple, are there any riders that can apply to the these attacks (that aren't attacks).

Most damage boosting abilities like Improved Divine Smite say things like "when you hit," which should refer to an attack roll ruling out these abilities. It gets a little nonsensical when you are using something like a Flame Tongue. Technically it doesn't look like FT should apply extra damage, but I'd not get upset at a DM that allowed it. After all the ability specifically says the weapon deals the flourish damage, and it is that same weapon that is currently on fire dealing an extra 2d6 to everything it hits.

Is there anything out there that RAW should apply extra damage to these relatively meager splash damage abilities?

[stoutstien]

Raw both are written to only grant the damage from the maneuver die. Thematically its wonky that a flametounge sword doesn't work on a cleaving attack and I would happily allow weapon effects to carry over.

[Man_Over_Game]

Is there anything out there that RAW should apply extra damage to these relatively meager splash damage abilities?

Look for abilities that say "When this weapon deals damage" that's not reliant on a "hit". RAW, that'd be the best way to go.

RAI, it's guaranteed damage on two separate targets, so it *does* provide something that other options don't have. Compare it to the Divine Smite of a Paladin, who deals 2d8 damage with a level 1 spell slot, and can get up to 4 of those. The Bard can do his ability as many times as he has Bardic Inspiration (up to 5), can deal up to 2d12, and refreshes on a short rest, on top of being a full caster.

Is it underpowered? Kinda? Not really? Numbers-wise, it does just fine, it just might appear to fall short when compared to something like Whispers, who deals roughly the same damage and has some cool stuff, but lacks extra attacks and better proficiencies.

I'd say the Swords Bard is the worst of the Bards, but the Bard is still one of the better classes.

So....Is the buff needed? Probably not. You could talk to your DM about changing the ability so that half of all the damage on the original target hits an adjacent target as bonus damage.

[PeteNutButter]

Look for abilities that say "When this weapon deals damage" that's not reliant on a "hit". RAW, that'd be the best way to go.

RAI, it's guaranteed damage on two separate targets, so it *does* provide something that other options don't have. Compare it to the Divine Smite of a Paladin, who deals 2d8 damage with a level 1 spell slot, and can get up to 4 of those. The Bard can do his ability as many times as he has Bardic Inspiration (up to 5), can deal up to 2d12, and refreshes on a short rest, on top of being a full caster.

Is it underpowered? Kinda? Not really? Numbers-wise, it does just fine, it just might appear to fall short when compared to something like Whispers, who deals roughly the same damage and has some cool stuff, but lacks extra attacks and better proficiencies.

I'd say the Swords Bard is the worst of the Bards, but the Bard is still one of the better classes.

So....Is the buff needed? Probably not. You could talk to your DM about changing the ability so that half of all the damage on the original target hits an adjacent target as bonus damage.

Well actually the intent is Slashing Flourish should be able to hit all foes within 5 feet, and not just one. I believe there was a tweet clarifying so. With that in mind it has an upper limit of 9d12, assuming foes aren’t squeezing, potentially double that on a crit. So it could be quite nasty.

In practice, you are rarely going to hit more than 3 or 4 foes max. Still 5d whatever is pretty solid. I feel inclined to build a character around this now. I can definitely see why they limited it to once per round, as you could shred some hordes if they let you do it 2-4 times.

Edit: I think I found one that works! Dueling FS. It gives you +2 to damage rolls with that weapon. It won’t work on sweeping attack but should on slashing flourish since it specifies the weapon deals the damage. It’s dicey though.

[McSkrag]

Well actually the intent is Slashing Flourish should be able to hit all foes within 5 feet, and not just one. I believe there was a tweet clarifying so.

Confirmed. Here's the Sage Advice:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/08/does-slashing-flourish-mean-you-only-deal-extra-damage-to-one-other-creature-within-5ft/

[stoutstien]

Confirmed. Here's the Sage Advice:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/12/08/does-slashing-flourish-mean-you-only-deal-extra-damage-to-one-other-creature-within-5ft/
Interesting. if you apply this to the battlemasters maneuver it actually makes it usable. Niche but usable

[PeteNutButter]

Interesting. if you apply this to the battlemasters maneuver it actually makes it usable. Niche but usable

Sadly the wording is different, making it clear that it only hits one creature. The maneuver days “another creature,” and the flourish says “any creature within five feet.”

[stoutstien]

Sadly the wording is different, making it clear that it only hits one creature. The maneuver days “another creature,” and the flourish says “any creature within five feet.” I should be more clear. Was thinking of house ruling it because I've never seen a player take this maneuver.or maybe allow them to take it twice adding more Targets each time they take it? Hmmm

[RSP]

Technically, Hexblades Curse would deal +prof damage on the maneuver/flourish added target, but I don’t know why you wouldn’t be attacking them straight out. Probably tough to build around this, too.

[PeteNutButter]

Here’s what I’m thinking:
Fighter 1/Bard 10 for d10 inspiration and magical secrets. This is pure money if the DM rules Holy Weapon damage applies to slashing flourish. Then maybe pick up fighter 3-4 for champion just to get a decent shot at critting those flourishes.

Stat spread should be variant human 16, 8, 14, 8, 10, 16, or maybe swap str/dex. Str allows future dipping into paladin to put all those bard slots to smite use. Dex is better save/initiative and allows dipping into rogue for cunning action/sneak attack. Hexblade would be another tempting dip as the ASIs should be in charisma over the attack stat.

Go shield and whip. The slashing flourish hits all adjacent enemies, so attacking with a reach weapon opens up bigger AoE options. Whip over PAM because it works with Dueling FS.

Another option for the str build would be to pick up mounted combatant feat and use a lance. Greater Find Steed could be the other secret. That’d certainly make for better crits.

[RSP]

Here’s what I’m thinking:
Fighter 1/Bard 10 for d10 inspiration and magical secrets. This is pure money if the DM rules Holy Weapon damage applies to slashing flourish. Then maybe pick up fighter 3-4 for champion just to get a decent shot at critting those flourishes.
...
Go shield and whip. The slashing flourish hits all adjacent enemies, so attacking with a reach weapon opens up bigger AoE options.

Actually Reach weapons won’t change anything: “Slashing Flourish: You can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target you hit and to any other creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of you.”

Unfortunately, it’s worded as specifically within 5’, not “within reach.” Further, Spashing Flourish states it only does damage equal to the Bardic Inspiration die, and never actually states the added damage comes via a “hit” or an attack with the weapon. Though, yes, a DM could certainly rule differently and add to the usefulness of SF.

[darknite]

The tiny amount of add'l damage allowed by either for the expenditure of a Superiority or Inspiration Die make both very uninteresting to me.

[PeteNutButter]

Actually Reach weapons won’t change anything: “Slashing Flourish: You can expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to cause the weapon to deal extra damage to the target you hit and to any other creature of your choice that you can see within 5 feet of you.”

Unfortunately, it’s worded as specifically within 5’, not “within reach.” Further, Spashing Flourish states it only does damage equal to the Bardic Inspiration die, and never actually states the added damage comes via a “hit” or an attack with the weapon. Though, yes, a DM could certainly rule differently and add to the usefulness of SF.

You misunderstand me. The reach is to use your attack to hit an enemy at reach, while positioning yourself to be within 5 feet of as many enemies as possible. By attacking an enemy at 10 feet you net one more inspiration die worth of damage against that foe within 5feet that you would normally be attacking.

*That is assuming the foes are positioned in such a way that you can’t just be adjacent to all of them, which comes up rather often.

Edit: Imagine four enemies standing in a line. A medium creature can only get within 5 feet of 3 of them at a time. Using the reach weapon to attack the fourth allows you to hit the other three with the flourish instead of just two that you’d hit with a non-reach weapon.

[RSP]

You misunderstand me. The reach is to use your attack to hit an enemy at reach, while positioning yourself to be within 5 feet of as many enemies as possible. By attacking an enemy at 10 feet you net one more inspiration die worth of damage against that foe within 5feet that you would normally be attacking.

*That is assuming the foes are positioned in such a way that you can’t just be adjacent to all of them, which comes up rather often.

Edit: Imagine four enemies standing in a line. A medium creature can only get within 5 feet of 3 of them at a time. Using the reach weapon to attack the fourth allows you to hit the other three with the flourish instead of just two that you’d hit with a non-reach weapon.

Fair enough, though you’re sacrificing, on average, 2 damage per hit, for the chance to, maybe (I don’t know the last time I saw a line of 4 enemies in a game), do one die of damage to one enemy. You’ll surpass that one die of damage in your first combat, most likely, and overall do far more damage in the campaign with a rapier (if needing finesse)

[PeteNutButter]

Fair enough, though you’re sacrificing, on average, 2 damage per hit, for the chance to, maybe (I don’t know the last time I saw a line of 4 enemies in a game), do one die of damage to one enemy. You’ll surpass that one die of damage in your first combat, most likely, and overall do far more damage in the campaign with a rapier (if needing finesse)

That’s not the only “formation” of enemy groups that it works on,—it gets more likely, the more foes you are facing—but you are totally right on the damage for the whip. I guess mounted lance is the best way to really make it work, otherwise stick to regular d8 weapons.

[Azgeroth]

not 100% but could you apply those to GFB? then choose the same target for both additional affects.. not really a 'rider' affect, but its the best i can thing of for what your looking for.

[PeteNutButter]

not 100% but could you apply those to GFB? then choose the same target for both additional affects.. not really a 'rider' affect, but its the best i can thing of for what your looking for.

That would work. Unfortunately for me I tend to play in AL where the two abilities can’t be combined (+1 rule). At any nonrestrictive table or with sweeping strike, it works.

You could even combine all 3, sweeping attack, slashing flourish, GFB with Hunter ranger’s horde breaker to attack the crap out of two adjacent enemies. But that’d be pretty MAD unless you rolled stats, and likely not worth the upside.

Let’s try for fun: Battlemaster 3/Hunter 4/Swords Bard 10/Hexblade 3. Half Elf 8, 14, 16, 9, 13, 16. Two ASIs for cha.

Basic attack would deal 1d8+8 just using Improved Pact Weapon invocation to make it +1. Toss on an extra 3d8 from GFB, 1d8 from sweeping strike, 1d10 from Slashing Flourish for an average of 36. Secondary target takes 3d8+5 from GFB + 1d8 + 1d10+2 from the move and flourish + 1d8+8 from horde breaker for an average of 43. Throw on Holy Weapon which at the very least works on the horde breaker attack so both targets take and extra 2d8 (9). That brings the total average damage to... 97. That’s not at all impressive, especially since it requires adjacent enemies, but it’s fun and boy do you get to roll a lot of dice.

Actually leveling/playing that contraption of a character would be interesting. Probably start fighter 1(con saves)/Hexblade 1 (+cha to attack & GFB) then take bard. I’d probably avoid battlemaster though if taking it for sweeping attack.

[Degwerks]

That would work. Unfortunately for me I tend to play in AL where the two abilities can’t be combined (+1 rule). At any nonrestrictive table or with sweeping strike, it works.

You could even combine all 3, sweeping attack, slashing flourish, GFB with Hunter ranger’s horde breaker to attack the crap out of two adjacent enemies. But that’d be pretty MAD unless you rolled stats, and likely not worth the upside.

Let’s try for fun: Battlemaster 3/Hunter 4/Swords Bard 10/Hexblade 3. Half Elf 8, 14, 16, 9, 13, 16. Two ASIs for cha.

Basic attack would deal 1d8+8 just using Improved Pact Weapon invocation to make it +1. Toss on an extra 3d8 from GFB, 1d8 from sweeping strike, 1d10 from Slashing Flourish for an average of 36. Secondary target takes 3d8+5 from GFB + 1d8 + 1d10+2 from the move and flourish + 1d8+8 from horde breaker for an average of 43. Throw on Holy Weapon which at the very least works on the horde breaker attack so both targets take and extra 2d8 (9). That brings the total average damage to... 97. That’s not at all impressive, especially since it requires adjacent enemies, but it’s fun and boy do you get to roll a lot of dice.

Actually leveling/playing that contraption of a character would be interesting. Probably start fighter 1(con saves)/Hexblade 1 (+cha to attack & GFB) then take bard. I’d probably avoid battlemaster though if taking it for sweeping attack.

Sweeping Attack would work with Greenflame Blade but Slashing Flourish would not. Flourishes are for when you take the Attack Action.

[PeteNutButter]

Sweeping Attack would work with Greenflame Blade but Slashing Flourish would not. Flourishes are for when you take the Attack Action.

Derp. You’re right. The build is silly anyways.

[stoutstien]

Derp. You’re right. The build is silly anyways.
well the way flourish is written it could be a niche use for a ranged bard build. how it works i have no idea. shoot a target when a crossbow and then spin on your head hitting all targets within 5 feet of you with small darts?