Question About Prestige classes and Spellcasters

[Stryyke]

I'm just now getting my first spell-casting prestige class. I've only done combat classes before. I'm Sorcerer 10, and I'm taking my first class as a Demonologist. Now Demonologist has it's own spell progression, but it occurs to me that if I get to Sorcerer 10/ Demonologist 10, I'll only have 1 5th level spell, and nothing higher. Is that correct? Or does my sorcerer continue to progress in tandem with my Demonologist levels?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Your Sorcerer casting would not be advanced by Demonologist, you'd be stuck with a maximum of 5th level Sorcerer spells if you entered the prestige class at level 10.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm just now getting my first spell-casting prestige class. I've only done combat classes before. I'm Sorcerer 10, and I'm taking my first class as a Demonologist. Now Demonologist has it's own spell progression, but it occurs to me that if I get to Sorcerer 10/ Demonologist 10, I'll only have 1 5th level spell, and nothing higher. Is that correct? Or does my sorcerer continue to progress in tandem with my Demonologist levels?

If a prestige class doesn't have the "+1 to existing spellcasting class" feature listed on its table, it will not progress your sorcerer casting. Demonologist lacks this feature and gives its own spellcasting progression instead. A sorcerer 10/ demonologist 10 would have many spell slots of levels 1-5 but none higher than that. You could still cast appropriate level summon monster spells and several demonologist spells are at a lower than normal level compared to where they are on other lists but it will be substantially less powerful than a sorcerer 20.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you're looking for good prestige classes to take for Sorcerer, I would recommend Frost Mage (Frostburn) or Archmage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm).

If you're playing a higher OP game, you could take Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerûn) or Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil (Complete Arcane).

[Cosi]

Generally speaking, for a spellcaster, pretty much any PrC that grants full spellcasting progression is reasonable. But anything less than full casting progression is a massive step down. Very often, partial casting PrCs are worse than simply not PrC-ing and using a lot of whatever kind of magic the PrC is nominally supposed to give you. This is why I recommend house-ruling all casting PrCs to full progression.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Generally speaking, for a spellcaster, pretty much any PrC that grants full spellcasting progression is reasonable. But anything less than full casting progression is a massive step down. Very often, partial casting PrCs are worse than simply not PrC-ing and using a lot of whatever kind of magic the PrC is nominally supposed to give you. This is why I recommend house-ruling all casting PrCs to full progression.

And yet, Green Star Adept is still bad. :smallfrown:

[Cosi]

And yet, Green Star Adept is still bad. :smallfrown:

Yeah, but it's Sorcerer v. Wizard bad not Fighter v. Wizard bad. None of what you get is particularly good, so you lose out relative to the people who took good PrCs, but you still get some minor bonuses and a few nice immunities. The point of the change isn't to fix everything perfectly, it's just to stop people from having to trade their core competency (casting level appropriate spells) for minor fluff abilities (being a green robot).

[ColorBlindNinja]

Yeah, but it's Sorcerer v. Wizard bad not Fighter v. Wizard bad. None of what you get is particularly good, so you lose out relative to the people who took good PrCs, but you still get some minor bonuses and a few nice immunities. The point of the change isn't to fix everything perfectly, it's just to stop people from having to trade their core competency (casting level appropriate spells) for minor fluff abilities (being a green robot).

Fair enough, but losing your CON score still sucks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

And yet, Green Star Adept is still bad. :smallfrown:

GSA is a melee prestige class that helps with a touch of casting. Come in off of hexblade or a suel arcanamach.

[ColorBlindNinja]

GSA is a melee prestige class that helps with a touch of casting. Come in off of hexblade or a suel arcanamach.

So it is good for something. Thanks for telling me. :smallsmile:

[Cosi]

So it is good for something. Thanks for telling me. :smallsmile:

Not really. Your baseline spellcasting as a Hexblade or Suel Arcanamach is already pretty weak. If you're cutting your progression in half, you're better off not trying to cast spells at all and just playing a Warblade or something. And losing your CON is even worse if you plan on spending time in melee.

As written, it's just a bad class. Kelb is trying to claim that it's less disappointing if you go into it from a less powerful starting point, and while that's probably true it's nothing more than playing slight of hand with your expectations.

[BowStreetRunner]

If a prestige class doesn't have the "+1 to existing spellcasting class" feature listed on its table, it will not progress your sorcerer casting.Actually, this isn't 100% accurate. In fact, it is the text of the class description that takes precedence over the table. In this instance it's the text under the Spells section that describes the Demonologist's spell progression without mentioning advancing any other class.

This may seem like nitpicking, but when you run into prestige classes like Sublime Chord (which has its own casting progression and also advances Caster Level (but not spells/day or spells known) for another class, it's important to read the full text and not just look at the table.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Actually, this isn't 100% accurate. In fact, it is the text of the class description that takes precedence over the table. In this instance it's the text under the Spells section that describes the Demonologist's spell progression without mentioning advancing any other class.

This may seem like nitpicking, but when you run into prestige classes like Sublime Chord (which has its own casting progression and also advances Caster Level (but not spells/day or spells known) for another class, it's important to read the full text and not just look at the table.

While it's certainly true that the text under "spellcasting" or "spells" in the class description explains how the class advances the progression of a base class and takes precedent over the table if they disagree; no class that advances a base class' progression lacks that phrase in its table, to the best of my knowledge. Looking for it is the quickest way to determine if a prestige class' progression is independent or not.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Not really. Your baseline spellcasting as a Hexblade or Suel Arcanamach is already pretty weak. If you're cutting your progression in half, you're better off not trying to cast spells at all and just playing a Warblade or something. And losing your CON is even worse if you plan on spending time in melee.

As written, it's just a bad class. Kelb is trying to claim that it's less disappointing if you go into it from a less powerful starting point, and while that's probably true it's nothing more than playing slight of hand with your expectations.

My hopes raised, only to be dashed. :smallsigh:

[Kelb_Panthera]

My hopes raised, only to be dashed. :smallsigh:

It's not great with suel arcanamach (acceptable, just not great) but hexblade casting is weak enough that losing it outright wouldn't be a big deal. You don't have to actually take the tenth level of GSA unless immortality or the construct type are things you just can't live without (they're not, generally). You might also consider qualifying for GSA with a warlock dip or even simply the magical training feat from Player's Guide to Faerun, though that latter arguably leaves you with the "+1 to existing arcane class" feature doing very little.

Cosi has no tolerance or taste for "mundanes" so take anything he says about non-casters with the biggest grain of salt you can find.

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's not great with suel arcanamach (acceptable, just not great) but hexblade casting is weak enough that losing it outright wouldn't be a big deal. You don't have to actually take the tenth level of GSA unless immortality or the construct type are things you just can't live without (they're not, generally). You might also consider qualifying for GSA with a warlock dip or even simply the magical training feat from Player's Guide to Faerun, though that latter arguably leaves you with the "+1 to existing arcane class" feature doing very little.

Hexblade is one of those classes I've been meaning to play...

[Cosi]

Cosi has no tolerance or taste for "mundanes" so take anything he says about non-casters with the biggest grain of salt you can find.

That's weird. I feel like if I had no tolerance or taste for mundanes, I probably wouldn't have suggested that a Warblade (a mundane class) was better than a Hexblade/Green Star Adept (not a mundane class).

[Particle_Man]

Hexblade is one of those classes I've been meaning to play...

I had fun with mine. I basically conned my way into becoming the emperor. :smallcool: On the way, I annoyed one fellow party member so much he became a frenzied berzerker just in the hope of "accidentally" killing me. But I was careful to always *not* be the nearest combatant on our side to the FB. I didn't have to be faster than the FB - I just had to be faster than the other poor saps in my party. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, for people using 3.P or Pathfinder 1st ed, there is the feat "Prestigious Spellcaster" (taken as many times as needed) that lets you gain +1 spellcasting in a "missing slot" of a prestige class that gives you +1 spellcasting in some, but not all, of its class levels. I like the idea of a draconic bloodline sorcerer taking it and going for dragon disciple in pathfinder - it costs four feats (there is a prerequisite feat) but you keep full caster levels in addition to the dragon stuff!

Maybe it could even help with Green Star Adept (since that is this thread's target of choice). :smallsmile:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster

[ColorBlindNinja]

I had fun with mine. I basically conned my way into becoming the emperor. :smallcool: On the way, I annoyed one fellow party member so much he became a frenzied berzerker just in the hope of "accidentally" killing me. But I was careful to always *not* be the nearest combatant on our side to the FB. I didn't have to be faster than the FB - I just had to be faster than the other poor saps in my party. :smallbiggrin:

That's an interesting story, thank you for sharing.


Oh, for people using 3.P or Pathfinder 1st ed, there is the feat "Prestigious Spellcaster" (taken as many times as needed) that lets you gain +1 spellcasting in a "missing slot" of a prestige class that gives you +1 spellcasting in some, but not all, of its class levels. I like the idea of a draconic bloodline sorcerer taking it and going for dragon disciple in pathfinder - it costs four feats (there is a prerequisite feat) but you keep full caster levels in addition to the dragon stuff!

Maybe it could even help with Green Star Adept (since that is this thread's target of choice). :smallsmile:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/prestigious-spellcaster

Interesting. That could really come in handy with those Prestige Classes that are otherwise good, but lose a caster level right off the bat.