Just for Fun: Sneaky, Trapfinding Oracle

[Maat Mons]

I've been reading the Pathfinder SRD a bit, and I've taken a shine to the Seeker archetype for Oracle. I'd like to build a character, even though I don't have any game lined up. Whould anyone be willing to help?


Class

I'm pretty sure I want to go Oracle. Sorcerer also has an option to gain Trapfinding, but it has fewer skill points, the features seem to come in a fixed order, and it's not as durable a chassis.

I know the Trapfinding ability is only needed to disarm magical traps in Pathfinder, but I'd still like to have it.

One thing I notice is that Pathfinder added an ability to auto-detect traps just for walking near them. As an Oracle, I won't have access to this. (Unless I cast Find Traps, but it would be hard to keep it up as long as I'd want.) Is this a big loss?


Race

I thought the most tempting favored class bonuses were for Human and Half-Elf. Both of which gain extra spells known.

Also, can Half-Elves not select Human favored class bonuses? I would've thought they could, but then why explicitly give a redundant option?

I feel like lurking in shadows suits what I'm going for, so I'm leaning toward Half-Drow. That is to say, Half-Elf with some Drow-themed alternate racial abilities.

I have to ask though, why do some of the alternate racial abilities say "(X RP)" next to them? Do I need to worry about that?

Drow-Blooded would give me the Darkvision I desire, but at the cost of Light Blindness. Is there an easy way to get around that? Blended View would be better, but I'm confused about how my Human parent would have had low-light vision.

I'd also consider Allert for Betrayal for Perception as a class skill and Fey Thoughts for Bluff and Stealth as class skills. But again, I'm worried because I don't know how this Racial Point stuff works.

Are there any other alternative racial traits I should consider?


Alternative Class Features

I'd like the Seeker archetype. There don't seem to be many other archetypes that are compatible.


Mystery

I'm leaning towards [s]Darkness[/i] Shadow, for Hide in Plain Sight. Also, giving my summons concealment seems nice. I have given some thought to Intrigue, but really the only think I like about that is getting more of my skills onto Charisma.

I know I said I was looking to get Darkvision from Half-Drow, but choosing the Darkness mystery wouldn't necessary cause me to change anything with my race. If I have 60-foot Darkvision from Half-Drow, and I take the Darkvision revelation, I wind up with 120-foot Darkvision, which I think is kind of neat. I do want to be good at sneaking around in the dark, after all.

Seeker will replace my bonus class skills, so I'm not too worried about that aspect.

Seeker gives bonuses with the spells from my mystery, so I should probably think about that.


Curse

I'm leaning towards Accursed, since the penalties don't seem that bothersome. I most especially don't want any penalties that will interfere in social situations. Also, being constantly morose kind of fits what I'm going for.

But I don't really have that good a handle on Curses in general.


Revelations

Army of Darkness sounds pretty awesome. Stealth Mastery gets me Hide in Plain sight, which is a big part of what attaracted me to this mystery. However, the part I care about won't come online until later, so this doesn't have to be one of the early ones. I might go for that for my 1st-level one. Pierce the Shadows is something I'd like to have eventually. I definitely want Darkvision at 1st level, but with Half-Drow, I can put this off a bit. Cloak of Darkness is a Stealth bonus, which isn't bad.

What other ones are good?


Traits

Are traits allowed by most DMs? How many?


Spells

I have no idea.


Feats

I really, really have no idea.


Advice?

[Florian]

The real strength of the shadow mystery lies in the combination of Dark Secrets and Shadow Mastery. Dark Secrets is needed to get the whole set of shadow-type spells on the spells known (Shadow Enchantment, Shadow Transformation and so on), while Shadow Mastery will raise the apparent reality of the spells. The Elf/H-Elf fav. class bonus to bolster one revelation should therefore go towards Shadow Mastery.

There're some feats that work quite well with shadow-type spells, starting with simple spell focus: illusion and spell penetration, going over to the Solid Shadows and Piercing Spell MM feats, which work fine with Seeker Magic.

[grarrrg]

Also, can Half-Elves not select Human favored class bonuses? I would've thought they could, but then why explicitly give a redundant option?
There was some early contention on Paizos part about making "half-elves" a (technically) distinct race (when they introduced all the Race specific stuff).
Thankfully they came to their senses (after the book was finalized).

Anyway, Half-Elves can take anything that Humans, Elves, and Half-Elves can take.


I have to ask though, why do some of the alternate racial abilities say "(X RP)" next to them? Do I need to worry about that?
Not really.

[Florian]

Not really.

That again depends on whether the GM is strict with calculating the APL (Average Party Level).

[Krazzman]

Traits:

Afaik the "common consensus" is that 2 traits are expected when the are allowed.
Strong options are Trap Finder (Campaign Trait from Mummys Mask afaik, which might make many GMs not allow it), Magical Lineage/Knack (I mix those two up all the time) for a one-spell only Metamagic reduction, or any other option to get a skill as a class skill. And maybe, if you are in a game where you will play an AP... the campaign traits for that might be a good idea since they are either freeing the type of Trait (i.e. Chance Saviour instead of Reactionary giving access to another combat trait while still having +2 initiative) or being just outright stronger (i.e. Finding Haleen [free Toughness as well as more skill points]).

Feats:
The Feats Florian mentioned. The Eldritch Heritage feats might be a "good" idea, since you could take a familiar archetype that can aid you for free bonuses to skills...

Curses:
Clouded vision is a trap. Haunted is sounding worse than it is and gives you access to some good-ish spells. Legalistic can be a quite fun curse for a "Technically I didn't lie" type of character or an upstanding character... might not fit your image though.
The Wrecker Curse could be substituting the Seeker Archetype... Spirit Guide would be a Strong alternative afaik... but might not fit the theme.

[Maat Mons]

The real strength of the shadow mystery lies in the combination of Dark Secrets and Shadow Mastery. Dark Secrets is needed to get the whole set of shadow-type spells on the spells known (Shadow Enchantment, Shadow Transformation and so on), while Shadow Mastery will raise the apparent reality of the spells. The Elf/H-Elf fav. class bonus to bolster one revelation should therefore go towards Shadow Mastery.

Oh wow. Pathfinder has not only shadow conjuration and evocation, but enchantment and transmutation too?

But, is the elven favored class bonus really worth it? Dedicating 18 levels worth of benefits to it gets me +3% realness. But dedicating 18 levels to the human favored class bonus gets me 18 extra spells known.

Don't get me wrong. Being able to cast a crapton of spells from 4 different schools at 80% realness is definitely neat. I'm just not sure that bumping it up to 83% realness is worth losing 18 spells known. Having, effectively, hella spells known from the shadow x spells and as many actual spells know as I can get sounds more tempting.



Hey, so here's a question. If I have the Army of Darkness ability, and I can Shadow Conjuration, do I get the benefit of Army of Darkness on the Summon Monster spell I'm mimicking? Or do I need to actually have Summon Monster spells as spells known to take advantage of Army of Darkness?

Also, is there a feat or something that would get the casting time of Summon Monster spells down from 1 round? A full-round action would be fine, but a standard action would be ideal.




There're some feats that work quite well with shadow-type spells, starting with simple spell focus: illusion and spell penetration, going over to the Solid Shadows and Piercing Spell MM feats, which work fine with Seeker Magic.

Solid Shadows looks good. Between that and Shadow Mastery, I should be able to get 100% realism on Greater Shadow Conjuration, Enchantment, and Evocation. Is there any feat I could take to eliminate the increase in casting time for applying a metamagic feat?

[Florian]

Summoning is pretty lackluster on an Oracle, even with the discount given by the revelation. The class simply lacks the Aura class feature necessary for the Sacred Summons feat, which would turn summoning into a standard action.
(That makes H-Elf Cleric 1/Oracle 5(or 7)/Hellknight Signifer 1+ with the Bifurcated Magic trait a rather strong choice)

More annoyingly, Army of Darkness gets in the way of two of the better feats, Summon (Alignment) Monster and Summons Guardian Spirit. And yes, it only works with "real" Summon Monster spells. Btw., using Shadow Conjuration to copy a summon spell has the downside of not profiting from any summon-specific feats, but the upside of being a standard action and it is open to debate if you're stuck with the basic list or can grab something from the feat-enhanced lists.

[Rynjin]

Trap Spotter is a much-maligned Talent; many (if not most) GMs will roll Perception to spot traps as a passive check (assuming you're taking 10) unless you actively search, because the idea of Trap Spotter slows the game to a crawl.

There might be some way for you to get access to Aram Zey's Focus (Trapfinder's Focus on the SRD) as an Oracle, though I don't know it off the cuff. It's a 2nd level Bard/Wizard/Alchemist spell that gives Trapfinding.

Barring that, you can disable magical traps with Dispel Magic, so it's not a huge loss anyway.

[Geddy2112]

Apologies if I rehash any of the already good advice

As said, you could take the wrecker mystery to get disable device instead of the seeker archetype, but that won't let you disarm magical traps. With the trait from mummy's mask, you get that back. Don't worry about trap spotter and just have a trait to make perception a class skill and/or just max ranks.

One of the best traits for a charisma based caster is irepressible-it lets you use CHA instead of WIS for will saves against enchantments, making wis an even bigger dump stat. Any trait that gives perception as a class skill is good, as is +2 initiative, +1 to a save, or anything that gives a re roll. Magical knack for multiclassing or level -3 spellcasters, lineage for metamagic tricks.

If you want to consider another curse, deaf is surprisingly good for a stealth build for free silent spell everything, allowing you to cast from hiding without giving away your position. Shadowbound gives you free shadow spells and darkvision, with just light blindness as a downside.

As said, as cool as Army of Darkness is (if just for the reference to the movie) it is a meh revelation and summoning as an oracle is subpar. Getting a feat tax removed is nice, but shadow template is arguably weaker than the celestial or fiendish templates. Cloak of darkness is not only stealth bonuses, but scaling armor-buy some cheap armor with no ACP as a backup but don't worry about getting better stuff and just pop it before combats-ideally if you are sneaky enough you won't get caught without it up. Dark secrets is a must, but there are only a handful of spells you need-shadow con&greater, shadow enchantment&greater, shadow evocation, shadow transmutation&greater. Since that's 7 spells, you would need to take the revelation at level 14 to get them all but if you took it earlier you can get a few key ones.

Stealth mastery is good for free skill focus, allowing you to qualify for the dampen presence feat to negate blindsense and blindsight. You can always use the extra revelation feat to grab a couple revelations early on, but you might want to retrain them should the game get to higher levels or you will get stuck with some of the crap revelations. Spell focus(illusion) and greater are obviously musts, as is solid shadows once you are higher level. As a caster, improved initiative is never bad.

For spells, you can use shadow thing to mimic a lot of spells on your list, so keep that in mind, particularly for passive/out of combat/utility spells as you can choose to fail the save to disbelieve. This works good for things like communal mount, etc. Avoid filling your spells known with things you can eventually shadow duplicate.

[Maat Mons]

For racial features, I'm thinking:

Alert for Betrayal: Gain Perception as a class skill and a +2 bonus on saves against illusions. Lose Adaptability.
Drow-Blooded: Gain darkvision and light blindness. Lose low-light vision.
Fey Thoughts: Gain Bluff and Stealth as class skills. Lose Multitalented.
Thinblood Resilience: Gain poison use and a +2 bonus to saves against disease and poison. Lose Elven Immunities.

And then just leave Elf Blood and Keen Senses be.

Is that a reasonable selection of traits that would be allowed in most games?



I think the skills I'd like to keep topped off are Bluff, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Perception, and Stealth. I doubt I'd have better than a +1 int bonus.

I might take the extra skill point favored class benefit for the first three levels. More cantrips known doesn't sound too appealing.

What would be a good use of 3 spare skill points?




Shadowbound gives you free shadow spells and darkvision, with just light blindness as a downside.

So, the most readily-available sources of Darkvision also give Light Blindness. What are the odds of a DM allowing the 3.5 feat, Daylight Adaptation?

Or would I have better luck going for the Blended View alternative racial trait? I'm not thrilled to lose the two class skills from Fey Thoughts. But I could make that up elsewhere.



An albino drow... interesting.

Kiding. I understand that I could ditch the (half) drow angle if I'm getting darkvision from elsewhere.

Though the half-drow thing is kind of growing on me. I have thoughts about how I could make a half drow who undertakes a secret mission to the surface to prove himself. Or a half drow with a sob story about how the evil drow mistreated him, causing him to abandon his home for the surface. Or a half drow who undertakes a secret mission to the surface to prove himself, and lies to people, telling them a sob story about how the evil drow mistreated him, causing him to abandon his home for the surface




Stealth mastery is good for free skill focus, allowing you to qualify for the dampen presence feat to negate blindsense and blindsight.

Would it be alright to delay Dampen Presence until 11th level? There's a lot of competition for my lower-level revelations.




Trap Finder (Campaign Trait from Mummys Mask afaik, which might make many GMs not allow it)

...the trait from mummy's mask...

I'll bear the Trap Finder trait in mind. But I kind of like how Seeker gives me half my level on checks, and isn't tied to any setting. On the other hand, Trap Finder would net me two more revelations, and the racial traits I was planning to use on class skills.

Irrepressible sounds good. So lets call that one trait picked, one more to go.




+2 initiative

Also tempting.




Traits: ... get a skill as a class skill.


Any trait that gives perception as a class skill is good

My skill points are more-or-less spoken for. But if I were to switch from getting a class skill from a racial trait to getting it from a trait, which one would I do?

Losing Alert for Betrayal makes the most sense, since it's only getting me one class skill. Should I stick with the base Skill Focus feat? Should I take Drow-Trained? Dimdweller? Sociable?

[Geddy2112]

I would advise against trading out elven immunities for thinblood resistance. Poison use is pretty meh, and saves against poison and disease come up far less than enchantments and sleep. When they do, they are not nearly as devastating. Failing a save against an enchantment is a near guaranteed save or die, possibly even the kind that kills the entire party later that night. If you really want to use poison just risk it, or use magic. Oracles have a ton of poison themed spells-making it, resisting it, and curing it.

Not sure if your DM will allow 3.5 or racial traits with race points, as that varies from table to table. General consensus I have seen is that it depends on what you are taking from 3.5 and what race point trait. I don't think fey thoughts or daylight adaptation are gamebreaking by any means and would allow both personally, but that's just my 2 coppers.

For your extra skills, the best use would be a rank in knowledge (planar), knowledge (religion) and spellcraft. The other option would be 3 ranks in acrobatics for a poor man's combat expertise, in the off chance you need to fight defensively or take total defense it is a good boost to AC and acrobatics is a decent skill otherwise. You are right not to take extra orisons, as you eventually get 9 of the 14 and a few are totally worthless.

Dampen presence at 11th level is fine, but swing it earlier if you can. A frustrating number of things have some form of sense/sight, and it only increases by level. Most casters have access to some form of it reliably before level 11. I do get that the big sell of the revelation is level 10, when the skill focus comes to +6 and the skill unlock actually matters for your build so 11th level for dampen makes sense.

Perception is by far the best class skill to get, although I could see an argument for arcana as a magical trap detector and disarmer. Between that and spellcraft you can know the exact nature of any magical trap you are up against, and the costs for failure. If you get perception through a trait, keep the skill focus. Dimdweller is good for your build but still circumstantial(creatures with LLV and darkvision negate the bonus, aka everything), drow trained is only good if you plan to build around one of those weapons, and socialable is only good if you build around it(i.e. diplomancer). A free skill focus also helps you qualify for the bonkers powerful eldritch heritage, namely arcane for a free familiar or bonded item.

Another thing, as a half elf, take the spell paragon surge when you get 3rd level spells. Even with the nerf it is still one of the best spells in the game.

[Ellrin]

One thing I notice is that Pathfinder added an ability to auto-detect traps just for walking near them

Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve done a scouting build, can you remind me what specific ability you’re referring to?

[Maat Mons]

Sorry, it’s been a while since I’ve done a scouting build, can you remind me what specific ability you’re referring to?

The Rogue class has Trap Spotter as one of the Talents you can select.




Trap Spotter is a much-maligned Talent; many (if not most) GMs will roll Perception to spot traps as a passive check (assuming you're taking 10) unless you actively search, because the idea of Trap Spotter slows the game to a crawl.

Oh, that's right. The reason you had to actively search for traps in 3.5 was because the Search skill couldn't be used reactively. But Pathfinder uses Perception to find traps, and Perception can be used reactively.

So, wait, does that mean Trap Spotter does literally nothing?

[Ellrin]

The Rogue class has Trap Spotter as one of the Talents you can select.





Oh, that's right. The reason you had to actively search for traps in 3.5 was because the Search skill couldn't be used reactively. But Pathfinder uses Perception to find traps, and Perception can be used reactively.

So, wait, does that mean Trap Spotter does literally nothing?


Oh, right, that; it's so bad I forgot it existed. I mean, it depends on the DM, but essentially yeah, you should really be getting those perception checks for free. At worst, a DM could give you a bit of a penalty for not actively searching; but he shouldn't just assume you aren't watching where you're going at all just because you aren't rolling Perception checks every five minutes.

[Maat Mons]

Assuming I wind up with a DM that allows Daylight Adaptation, this is how my prospective feats and revelations are looking right now.
Level 1 Revelation: Pierce the Shadows
Level 1 Feat: Daylight Adaptation [note: 3.5 feat]
Level 3 Feat: Extra Revelation (Stealth Mastery)
Level 5 Feat: Dampen Presence
Level 7 Revelation: Shadow Mastery
Level 7 Feat: Extra Revelation (Dark Secrets)
Level 9 Feat: Solid Shadows
Level 11 Revelation: Cloak of Darkness
Level 11 Feat:
Level 13 Feat:
Level 15 Feat:
Level 17 Feat:
Level 19 Revelation:
Level 19 Feat:

Does that look okay?


Other Potential feats (in no particular order): Improved Initiative, Spell Focus (Illusion), Greater Spell Focus (Illusion), Spell Penetration, Greater Spell Penetration, Piercing Spell

[Rynjin]

TBH, I don't think Light Blindness is a big enough deal to spend a Feat on negating. It's only for one round; after that Dazzled is a nothing debuff.

[Maat Mons]

I don't think Light Blindness is a big enough deal to spend a Feat on negating.

Hmm.

Well, I could ditch Daylight Adaptation, but keeping track of lighting conditions and adjusting my stats based on the sounds like a hassle.

I could ditch both Drow-Blooded and Daylight Adaptation. My Darkvision would decrease to 60 feet, but I wouldn't have to futz around with Light Blindness.

I could ditch Drow-Blooded, and take Deepsight instead of Daylight Adaptation. I'd have my 120-foot Darkvision, no Light Blindness, and Low-Light Vision to boot. Strictly better than what I'm doing now, and doesn't require special approval from the DM.

Is it weird to play a half-drow with none of the "drow" racial traits? I mean, I could be a different kind of half-elf. But I'd need a new backstory. And I kind of feel like drow suits the whole shadow thing I have going.

[Ellrin]

I agree with Rynjin, light blindness is a pretty minor malady to spend a feat on. If you're going to blow a feat on it, I think you'd probably be better served by taking Craft Wondrous Item and making lenses of darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/h-l/lenses-of-darkness). Granted, that's a base 12,000 gp (which is absurd for a pair of sunglasses), but the feat will halve your cost and your party will love you for halving their wondrous item costs, too (or charge them 60% of the base price, still get their adulation, and rake in some profit for yourself).

Other options include protective penumbra (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/protective-penumbra), which is on the oracle spell list (and is a second level spell, so a wand wouldn't be unreasonable by low-mid levels), and if we're going to 3.5, the sundark goggles, which are nonmagical and only cost 10 gp. You can find that on p.123, Races of the Dragon (also reprinted here (https://www.realmshelps.net/stores/specialitems.shtml)). They prevent you from using a gaze attack if you've got one, and don't help with the initial round of blindness, but you negate the penalty from being dazzled due to light blindness, and as a side bonus get a +2 circumstance bonus on saves vs. gaze attacks. I had a drow in an old 3.5 game that loved those things.

Also keep in mind that light blindness only actually kicks on in conditions of bright light, which really only includes direct sunlight and daylight spells (and any higher level light spells than that). If you're spending a lot of time out of doors and out of the shade, you'll deal with it a lot, but otherwise...

[Maat Mons]

Good news and bad news. The good news is, I'll be getting to play this character in an upcoming game. The bad news is, traits are not allowed.

Alternate racial traits require approval, and we'll be meeting Friday to build characters. Starting level 3.

One guy's going to be a Paladin. He's played a few sessions of 3.5 before. The other guy was still very up-in-the-air on what to play when I last spoke to him. He's never played a pen-and-paper RPG before. I think the closest he's come is Arkham Horror. But he's played plenty of video games, some of which must have had RPG elements.

Anyway, I'm feeling pretty well-prepared for character-building session, except on one front. I've only just started looking at spells tonight. In my defense, I was too dumb to find the "spells" section of "Channeling the Cosmos: A guide to the Oracle." I was scrolling through, thinking "Why doesn't this cover spells?" And it turns out I needed to click a link.

For my 5 orisons, I'm thinking create water, detect magic, light, mending, and read magic. Or should I take stabilize? I'm not planning to put ranks into Heal.

For my 3 1st-level spells, I'm thinking obscuring mist, protection from ... law?, and summon monster I. This is, of course, not counting blurred movement and cure light wounds, which I get automatically. I'm really not sure about the "law" part of protection from law. I'm planning to be CN, and from an evil society, so it seems to make the most sense. Or maybe drow would learn protection from evil? (Specifically for when they fight with other drow ... or pretty much any other underdark creature.) Or should I take bless or sanctuary?

[Geddy2112]

Glad to hear you get to play! Even without traits you should be fine enough off, although you pretty much have to be a seeker to get your disable device and the like. For your spells, I would not take stabilize as you have cure spells and a paladin in the group, so you should never need it. Any magical healing automatically stabilizes a creature and likely brings them back into the fight. The only use of stabilize is the range of the spell,but even then it is not very useful. I would consider grabbing guidance, as it is a cheap +1 competence bonus you can get at will. Turns taking 10 into taking 11, cast before knowledge checks, buff your friends, etc. Eventually you will have 9 of the 14 orisons, and 3 orisons are totally worthless(bleed, resistance, virtue) so eventually you will have them all.

Protection from law is probably the least useful of the protection spells, unless the campaign is centered on fighting law based enemies and effects. Evil enemies are the most common for obvious reasons, and the most likely to have effects trying to control your mind(the best use of the pro X spells). You could probably get by with a scroll of the other Pro X's and be fine. Obscuring mist is okay, but if you can hold out fog cloud is exponentially more useful since you can throw it, but it is a good spell. One really good spell to consider and grab with your bonus spells is embrace destiny, which effectively gives you a roll 2x pick the highest on any out of combat check. Sanctuary is okay for your build since you generally won't be fighting, but it will eat your first round combat action so keep that in mind.

[Ellrin]

If you decide the traits you want are of particularly high value to your build, there is a feat called Additional Traits (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/additional-traits/), which lets you pick up two. You’d still want to check if your DM is okay with that, but he might accept trading in a feat where he didn’t want to accept giving them out for “free.”

[Maat Mons]

I would consider grabbing guidance

Now that I think about it, a heavily-shadow-themed dude with super-darkvision probably wouldn't take the light orison. You know, thematically. So I can probably just switch those out.




Protection from law is probably the least useful of the protection spells, unless the campaign is centered on fighting law based enemies and effects. Evil enemies are the most common for obvious reasons, and the most likely to have effects trying to control your mind(the best use of the pro X spells).

Yeah, I'll probably take Protection from Evil. If the DM gives me grief because I'm from an evil society, I'll argue that drow cities are more likely to be assaulted by other underdark societies than by the forces righteousness.

[Maat Mons]

Since that's 7 spells, you would need to take the revelation at level 14 to get them all but if you took it earlier you can get a few key ones.

Wait, the revelation doesn't scale as I level up? I just kind of figured that, as my maximum allotment of spells from Dark Secrets increased, I'd get to pick new spells to fill it out.

[grarrrg]

Wait, the revelation doesn't scale as I level up? I just kind of figured that, as my maximum allotment of spells from Dark Secrets increased, I'd get to pick new spells to fill it out.

It doesn't say that it scales as you level, just says what you get when you take it.
There is the rider for swapping spells though.

[Maat Mons]

Ugh, maybe I will take the Shadowbound Curse,then. That gets it down to 5 spells I need, so I only have to wait until 11th level.

I'll miss out on Shadow Conjuration for 2 levels, and Shadow Enchantment for 4 levels (relative to my initial plan). But if that's what it takes.