[3.5] Duskblade vs. Undead

[GreatDane]

One of the PCs in my Age of Worms campaign is a duskblade. Age of Worms is pretty heavy on undead, and in particular the minions of Kyuss are often immune to electricity damage. Since the bread and butter of duskblade touch spells are shocking grasp and vampiric touch, the player is feeling a little ineffective, especially as we climb into the upper levels.

The character has plenty of cash to throw at the problem, and maybe a feat or two. I'm looking for workarounds, alternative spells, etc. to boost the duskblade's effectiveness. We generally use the core, Complete, and a few miscellaneous rulebooks like PHBII and ToB. Everything else is case-by-case.

[Aetis]

A pretty simple fix would be to just homebrew "fiery grasp", which is shocking grasp but deals fire damage.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Maybe he could take the Energy Substitution feat? Or buy a rod of it?

[DarkSoul]

Energy substitution is probably his best option.

[GreatDane]

All right, so it sounds like Energy Substitution (with Rapid Metamagic, of course) is the top solution for shocking grasp. Anything for vampiric touch?

[liquidformat]

Energy substitution is probably his best option.

Doesn't metamagics kind of ruin duskblade's ability to function since they are spontaneous spell casters?...

Maybe home brew an item that would function as energy substitution but not make the spell a full round action?

[Goaty14]

(with Rapid Metamagic, of course)


Doesn't metamagics kind of ruin duskblade's ability to function since they are spontaneous spell casters?...

CONTEXT: Rapid Metamagic gets rid of that problem

[ColorBlindNinja]

CONTEXT: Rapid Metamagic gets rid of that problem

It's worth noting there are two versions of Rapid Spell.

One from Complete Divine which shortens the casting time of a spell (only works on spells with one full round casting time or greater).

Then, there's one from the Complete Mage which allows spontaneous casters to avoid longer casting times when using metamagic.

Why these two feats have the exact same name when they are completely different is a mystery.

EDIT: Complete Mage is the more recent book, so its version of Rapid Spell takes precedence, as far as RAW is concerned.

[tyckspoon]

If you're the GM, adding a few select spells to the Duskblade's spell list is probably the quickest solution. For this particular case, Combust (level 2 Wiz/Sorc, sets a target on fire for CLd8 damage) is a very Duskblade-y sort of spell and will give a good Fire damage option. If you're not the GM, you might be able to make a case for letting the Duskblade grab it by spending a feat on Extra Spell or using spell research to add it as a spell known. Similarly adding a few appropriate self-buffs might be good, like Blades of Fire (also level 2, natural swift-cast, adds 1d8 fire damage to attacks for one round.)

It's not as satisfying as the spells, but bopping a Truedeath crystal or Energy Assault crystal on the Duskblade's weapon will at least give him some cost-effective bonus damage when he can't hit them with a decent spell.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you're the GM, adding a few select spells to the Duskblade's spell list is probably the quickest solution. For this particular case, Combust (level 2 Wiz/Sorc, sets a target on fire for CLd8 damage) is a very Duskblade-y sort of spell and will give a good Fire damage option. If you're not the GM, you might be able to make a case for letting the Duskblade grab it by spending a feat on Extra Spell or using spell research to add it as a spell known. Similarly adding a few appropriate self-buffs might be good, like Blades of Fire (also level 2, natural swift-cast, adds 1d8 fire damage to attacks for one round.)

It's not as satisfying as the spells, but bopping a Truedeath crystal or Energy Assault crystal on the Duskblade's weapon will at least give him some cost-effective bonus damage when he can't hit them with a decent spell.

The Duskblade could also take the Extra Spell feat, since by RAW, it lets you get any spell from any list.

EDIT: Combine with Sanctum Spell to get spells of the highest level you can actually cast.

[Troacctid]

What's wrong with Chill Touch? It's still a pretty nasty save-or-suck against undead, with the potential to take them out of the fight completely for many rounds.

[DrMotives]

What's wrong with Chill Touch? It's still a pretty nasty save-or-suck against undead, with the potential to take them out of the fight completely for many rounds.

Because undead tend to be immune to cold, and while RAW the cold damage is separate from the save-or-suck, thematically it's linked. Many DMs will make a RAI ruling and say cold-immune creatures can completely ignore chill touch.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Because undead tend to be immune to cold, and while RAW the cold damage is separate from the save-or-suck, thematically it's linked. Many DMs will make a RAI ruling and say cold-immune creatures can completely ignore chill touch.

Chill Touch outright states that although the Undead don't take damage, they still must make a WILL save:



An undead creature you touch takes no damage of either sort, but it must make a successful Will saving throw or flee as if panicked for 1d4 rounds +1 round per caster level.

[Techwarrior]

I mean, a +1 Undead Bane weapon is probably an easy drop if you're not afraid of the character having that.

Further, Duskblades are full BAB characters that are incentivized to use a two handed weapon. Have them take Power Attack.

What is the character actually working with as far as resources already committed in build or items?

[A_S]

Because undead tend to be immune to cold, and while RAW the cold damage is separate from the save-or-suck, thematically it's linked. Many DMs will make a RAI ruling and say cold-immune creatures can completely ignore chill touch.
Chill Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) has a specifically-called-out alternate effect that applies only when targeting undead. I've never heard of a DM ignoring that clause.

*edit* Swordsage'd

[Kurald Galain]

What's wrong with Chill Touch? It's still a pretty nasty save-or-suck against undead, with the potential to take them out of the fight completely for many rounds.

Poor save DC. As the OP mentions higher levels, you get a DC of about 15 when the actual casters are throwing around DC 20 or more.

[GreatDane]

What's wrong with Chill Touch? It's still a pretty nasty save-or-suck against undead, with the potential to take them out of the fight completely for many rounds.
Ho-hum, you're quite right. I've edited the original post.


If you're the GM, adding a few select spells to the Duskblade's spell list is probably the quickest solution. For this particular case, Combust (level 2 Wiz/Sorc, sets a target on fire for CLd8 damage) is a very Duskblade-y sort of spell and will give a good Fire damage option. If you're not the GM, you might be able to make a case for letting the Duskblade grab it by spending a feat on Extra Spell or using spell research to add it as a spell known. Similarly adding a few appropriate self-buffs might be good, like Blades of Fire (also level 2, natural swift-cast, adds 1d8 fire damage to attacks for one round.)

It's not as satisfying as the spells, but bopping a Truedeath crystal or Energy Assault crystal on the Duskblade's weapon will at least give him some cost-effective bonus damage when he can't hit them with a decent spell.
Combust is exactly the kind of spell I was hoping to mine from this thread. I am indeed the DM, and the player has options for adding spells to their spell list. I will suggest it!

The part's melee fighters have long since invested in greater truedeath crystals; they're great bang for the buck in such an undead-heavy campaign.

[Kurald Galain]

Combust is exactly the kind of spell I was hoping to mine from this thread. I am indeed the DM, and the player has options for adding spells to their spell list. I will suggest it!
I strongly suggest giving the duskblade a better deal than spending a feat for just a single spell. For instance, knowstone items exist, and add a spell to your list for the cost of 1000 gp * (spell level squared).

[Thurbane]

Here's a pretty decent (homebrew) list to expand the Duskblade's spell list: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=7807766&postcount=19


Duskblade spell list Expansion:
L0
Caltrops
Electric Jolt
Know Greatest Enemy
Launch Item
Stick

L1
Corrosive Grasp
Critical Strike
Deafening Clang
Fist of Stone
Ice Dagger
Lightfoot
Nerveskitter
Nightshield
Persistent Blade
Phantom Threat
Rhino's Rush
Snowshoes

L2
Battering Ram
Bladeweave
Body of the Sun
Bristle
Combust
Daggerspell Stance
Delusions of Grandeur
Fireburst
Flame Dagger
Infernal Wound
Ironthunder Horn
Mountain Stance
Rainbow Beam
Scorch
Shadow Spray
Weapon Shift
Wracking Touch

L3
Belker Claws
Body Blades
Clarity of Mind
Diamondsteel
Find the Gap
Knight's Move
Know Opponent
Moon Blade
Ring of Blades
Spectral Weapon
Spider Poison
Steeldance
Sppress Breath Weapon
Unluck
Whirling Blade

L4
Bands of Steel
Blindsight
Displacer Form
Flame Whips
Forcewave
Frost Breath
Lion's Charge
Mind Poison
Vulnerability

L5
Acid Sheath
Aura of Evasion
Charge of the Triceratops
Emerald Flame Fist
Fireburst, Greater
Girallon's Blessing
Ray Deflection
Translocation Trick

Complete Mage
Assassin Spells
Bloodletting (1)
Catsfeet (1)
Summon Weapon (2)
Rusted Blade (3) (or (4) as per Wiz/Sorc list)
Unseen Strike (4)

Wiz/Sorc Spells
Steam Jet (1)
Escalating Enfeeblement (2)
Heart of Air (2)
Tenacious Dispelling (3)
Heart of Water (3)
Prickling Torment (3)
Heart of Earth (4)
Crypt Warden's Grasp (5)
Touch of Vecna (5)
Heart of Fire (5)
Tactical Teleportation (6) as (5)

[DrMotives]

This is a problem with growing up on one edition and switching later on. I never read the new description for chill touch, and just assumed it was the old cold damage version. To make an excuse, I don't think it's come up at all in my games, but still. I should have read and seen how the spell is different from its 2e & older versions.

[Eldariel]

Depends on the level, but just simple Knowledge Devotion + Arcane Strike + Power Attack should be more than sufficient even with no spell slots invested. For channeling, Disintegrate is the big one to dust Undead but of course, it takes some levels to get into. Energy Substitution does indeed work if you also pick up Rapid Metamagic, but that's a rather hefty investment for relatively minor benefits. If you added like Born of Three Thunders and daze immunity that might be better but even then, BoTT is better on AOE spells than channeled spells.

[Techwarrior]

BoTT is better on AOE spells than channeled spells.

You ever Born of Three Thunders a Heartfire or another AoE that does damage per round? God it feels so deliciously evil.

[Troacctid]

Poor save DC. As the OP mentions higher levels, you get a DC of about 15 when the actual casters are throwing around DC 20 or more.
If you're channeling it, then you still do weapon damage if they succeed on the save. If you're casting it normally, you get to make like a bajillion attacks in one round, which gives them a lot of chances to fail. Either way, it's a fine prospect IMO.

[PrismCat21]

Since your main concern seems to be about the kinds of spells he has, just give him additional spells to choose from. Easy fix.


Chill Touch outright states that although the Undead don't take damage, they still must make a WILL save:

Chill Touch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) has a specifically-called-out alternate effect that applies only when targeting undead. I've never heard of a DM ignoring that clause.

If you're channeling it, then you still do weapon damage if they succeed on the save. If you're casting it normally, you get to make like a bajillion attacks in one round, which gives them a lot of chances to fail. Either way, it's a fine prospect IMO.

QFT

[Fuzzy McCoy]

Also, while a bit more questionable, gauntlets of energy transformation, on page 102 of the MIC, might help here. It depends if you count the spell as weapon damage - since it’s channeled through the weapon.

If you don’t know what the gauntlets do, for one round at the cost of your swift they swap the type of energy damage your weapon does. A steal at 1k.

[SirAshley]

While more of a late game fix, I have always liked how nasty a Duskblade can get when they become an Ur-Priest. Channel Heal in the face of a vampire? Yes please.

[Thurbane]

Depends on the level, but just simple Knowledge Devotion + Arcane Strike + Power Attack should be more than sufficient even with no spell slots invested.

One of my players played a Duskblade when I ran expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and didn't have too many problems with Undead.