A question about available prestige classes for Arcane Spellcasters.

[Grendelkhan11]

So it's a long story but are there any other prestige classes that level up 2 casting classes like Ultimate Magus? I'm curious how high I can get a spellcasting class to go. 3.5 or 3e content is what we can use.

Otherwise is there any fun ways to get free spellcasting levels? Like Dragon Archetypes and such.

I don't care what kind of cheese we dig into, I just want to know what is available for max power from a spellcaster.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Loredrake is a common method for getting more Sorcerer levels on a Dragonwrought Venerable Kobold. As well as Draconic Rite of Ascension. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

[BowStreetRunner]

There are a variety of dual-casting progression Prestige Classes out there. However, usually it is hard to find more than one that advances the same two casting classes.

The original dual-progression class was Mystic Theurge (DMG 192) and progresses both an arcane class and a divine class. Wizard/Archivist is a great option here for double intelligence-based casting.


Fochlucan Lyrist (CAd 47) also advances both arcane and divine, but is geared toward Bard and Druid with its prerequisites.
Sublime Chord (CA 60) is a bit unusual. You enter from Bard but then it has its own Sorcerer-like progression. However, while you no longer progress with spells per day or spells known in Bard, your caster level for both classes is the sum of the two.
Eldritch Disciple (CM 53) advances an invocation-using class (Warlock or Dragonfire Adept) and a divine class.
Eldritch Theurge (CM 57) advances an invocation-using class and an arcane class.
Ultimage Magus (CM 77) that you already discovered advances a spontaneous arcane class and a prepared arcane class, although there are some shenanigans that some DMs allow that will make it so that you can use a spontaneous class in the prepared slot or vice-versa.
Cerebremancer (EPH 141) advances both an arcane class and a psionic manifesting class.
True Necromancer (LM 51) advances both an arcane class and a divine class and each gets a 12 level boost over the 14 levels of the PrC.
Sanctified Mind (LoM 198) advances both a divine class and a psionic manifesting class.
Sapphire Hierarch (MoI 136) advances both a divine class and an arcanum meldshaping class.
Soulcaster (MoI 142) advances both an arcane class and an arcanum meldshaping class.
Arcane Hierophant (RotW 108) is another that advances arcane and divine and is geared toward druids.
Jade Phoenix Mage (ToB 113) is considered the 'Theurge' class of martial adepts, advancing both arcane spellcasting and initiator levels.
Anima Mage (ToM 50) advances arcane casting and Soul Binding.
Tenebrous Apostate (ToM 63) advances divine casting and Soul Binding.
Noctumancer (ToM 125) advances both a Mystery using class and arcane spellcasting.


There are others, particularly if you go into the setting-specific books (Faerun, Eberron, etc.).

You will also find that most Prestige Classes that advance casting allow you to alternate between more than one qualifying class - so at each level you decide which you want to advance.

[Malphegor]

True Necromancer is a weird one because the text says that you advance both but the table, likely due to formatting issues, has the slash symbol indicating it's an or. Plus your first two levels are just one arcane, divine, respectively.

(I was up late night re-reading Libris Mortis searching for stuff to apply to a Dread Necro, amusingly, so that's fresh on my mind)

[gkathellar]

There's a (bad) argument to be made that Alternate Source Spell and Southern Magician allow you to use arcane/divine PrCs to advance two arcane or two divine classes. No one will ever allow you to do this and IIRC it's a pretty deliberately confused reading of the text, but people have advocated for it in the past.

FR's Sharn (ECL 9) gain 1 level of casting as either a cleric or a sorcerer for every HD above their norm. Dipping into class levels, this means they could take wizard levels and gain additional sorcerer casting at the same time. Among other nonsense. They are probably the only good LA+4 race.

[Goaty14]

(snip)

You forgot the Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB), that advances initiating and divine spellcasting

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You forgot the Ruby Knight Vindicator (ToB), that advances initiating and divine spellcastingInitiators are not, and never have been, spellcasters.

Except arcane swordsage. Kinda.

[Goaty14]

Initiators are not, and never have been, spellcasters.

Except arcane swordsage. Kinda.

>Completely misses the context that BSR was talking about theurges as a whole.

Thanks, captain obvious! :smallamused:

[Doctor Awkward]

Loredrake is a common method for getting more Sorcerer levels on a Dragonwrought Venerable Kobold. As well as Draconic Rite of Ascension. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a)

Loredrake is a Soverign Archetype, which are explicitly variant rules for true dragons, as stated on Dragons of Eberron page 30:

Pursuing a Sovereign archetype is a lifelong goal,
and it is reflected in a dragon’s behavior and outlook on
life. Dragons are still individuals; one loredrake might
be dry and serious, while another is cheerfully manic.
But both are utterly dedicated to the pursuit of knowledge.
As such, the choice of a Sovereign archetype should
provide a DM with a thumbnail sketch of a dragon’s
motivations and personality.
All true dragons have the potential to use arcane
magic. Most have the ability to select spells from the
cleric spell list and certain domains. This variant rule
instead provides a dragon with a special ability based on
the Sovereign archetype it chooses to follow.

Dragonwrought kobolds don't qualify.

[Crichton]

Loredrake is a Soverign Archetype, which are explicitly variant rules for true dragons, as stated on Dragons of Eberron page 30:


Dragonwrought kobolds don't qualify.

*grabs popcorn*

[Icarium]

*grabs popcorn*
*And some soda*

[Malphegor]

*And some soda*

AND MY AXE!

(sorry, couldn't resist the urge)

Possibly not what you're after, OP, but Dweomerkeeper lets you advance either a arcane spellcasting class or a divine spellcasting class each level. Might be worth considering that as 'filler' if you're trying to reach certain value of caster level before qualifying for something else.

[HouseRules]

Monster Manual
There are only 10 True Dragons, the five Chromatic Dragons and the five Metallic Dragons.

Draconomicon
True Dragons are those that "advanced by age categories".

Races of the Dragon
All True Dragons have a "Half-Dragon" Template version of it.

Dragon Magic
True Dragons is a Dragon with "Twelve Age Categories".

Dragonwrought Kobolds have 12 age categories, but does not have a "Half-Dragon" Template version.

Someone needs to make a Half-Dragonwrought Kobold template for Dragonwrought Kobold to be True Dragon, but that is House Rules territory.




P.S.: If you play a 3.0 and 3.5 hybrid, all rules of 3.0 that are not superseded by 3.5 are still valid, even if omitted by 3.5.
Otherwise, multiclass into prestige classes still takes multiclass experience penalties (before premium edition).
Schrodinger Dragon and Schrodinger Ur-Priest are disqualify themselves.

[Goaty14]

Monster Manual
There are only 10 True Dragons, the five Chromatic Dragons and the five Metallic Dragons.

Draconomicon
True Dragons are those that "advanced by age categories".

Races of the Dragon
All True Dragons have a "Half-Dragon" Template version of it.

Dragon Magic
True Dragons is a Dragon with "Twelve Age Categories".

Dragonwrought Kobolds have 12 age categories, but does not have a "Half-Dragon" Template version.

Someone needs to make a Half-Dragonwrought Kobold template for Dragonwrought Kobold to be True Dragon, but that is House Rules territory.

Races of the Dragon Released: Jan. 2006
Dragon Magic Released: Sept. 2006

There's an argument concerning precedence there.

[HouseRules]

Races of the Dragon Released: Jan. 2006
Dragon Magic Released: Sept. 2006

There's an argument concerning precedence there.

They don't clearly contradict, only limit each other.

Analogy:
Race of Dragon says "Apple".
Dragon Magic says "Red Fruit".

Is Green Apple Valid?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Races of the Dragon Released: Jan. 2006
Dragon Magic Released: Sept. 2006

There's an argument concerning precedence there.

Primary source rule only applies when there's a conflict. There is no conflict there.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Loredrake is a Soverign Archetype, which are explicitly variant rules for true dragons, as stated on Dragons of Eberron page 30:

By that definition, would a Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcerer qualify since they have an ability to cast Arcane magic?

[Doctor Awkward]

Monster Manual
There are only 10 True Dragons, the five Chromatic Dragons and the five Metallic Dragons.
Superseded by several subsequent texts, which also specifically call out other creatures as true dragons, such as steel dragons, fang dragons, lung dragons, gem dragons, and so on.


Draconomicon
True Dragons are those that "advanced by age categories".


Dragonwrought kobolds do not do this.
They advance by character class.



Races of the Dragon
All True Dragons have a "Half-Dragon" Template version of it.


Technically true, but not entirely relevant.


Dragon Magic
True Dragons is a Dragon with "Twelve Age Categories".

This is a clarification, not a new rule. It is found under the rules for creating dragonpacts, which can only be done between a true dragon and another creature.

Allowing this to count as a qualifier for true dragons would mean that half-dragon kobolds would also count as true dragons, as like Dragonwrought kobolds they are creatures of the dragon type that have 12 age categories. This is is obviously incorrect as the Draconomicon specifically lists half-dragons as lesser dragons, and the end of the same paragraph in Dragon Magic also calls a hypothetical half-dragon sorcerer a lesser dragon.

[HouseRules]

A True Dragon advances by "Dragon Age Categories" (though they may side track and take class levels). There are twelve mandatory age categories from Wyrmling to Great Wyrm with the "Dragon Age Categories", though it is optional to add an additional "Great" in front for extension. All True Dragons have a Half-Dragon Template version of itself.

That's three qualifying ideas:

Advanced by Age Category (optional to advanced by class)
Has the 12 mandatory age categories from Wyrmling to Great Wyrm (optional to add additional "Great" in front for more age category)
Have a Half-Dragon Template version


If it fails any of these three aspect, it cannot be a True Dragon.

Taking a Half-Dragon Template does not make a character a True Dragon. It makes them a Lesser Dragon related to the True Dragon that the template is based off of.

PS: The "optional to advanced by class" clause is added because Player Characters gain experience and levels faster than they could age.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Do Dragonwrought Kobolds have age categories? I was under the impression that they did.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Do Dragonwrought Kobolds have age categories? I was under the impression that they did.

There's a pure fluff sidebar in RotD that attributes 12 age categories to all kobolds with no mechanics attached to it.

[Doctor Awkward]

Do Dragonwrought Kobolds have age categories? I was under the impression that they did.

They do. But they don't advance through them. They advance through character class.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There's a pure fluff sidebar in RotD that attributes 12 age categories to all kobolds with no mechanics attached to it.


They do. But they don't advance through them. They advance through character class.

Okay, thank you for explaining.

[HouseRules]

They do. But they don't advance through them. They advance through character class.

Should every character advanced by age?

All Core and Most Base Races have the following "Age Categories" :

"Unplayable" Age
Adult
Middle Age -1 to Physical Ability Scores, +1 to Mental Ability Scores
Venerable -2 (stack with previous) to Physical Ability Scores, +1 to Mental Ability Scores

and they all advanced trough them.

[Troacctid]

Should every character advanced by age?

All Core and Most Base Races have the following "Age Categories" :

"Unplayable" Age
Adult
Middle Age -1 to Physical Ability Scores, +1 to Mental Ability Scores
Venerable -2 (stack with previous) to Physical Ability Scores, +1 to Mental Ability Scores

and they all advanced trough them.

It means this.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/532993682903793664/unknown.png

Chapter 3 of Draconomicon goes into more detail about what advancing by age means in the rules.

[Psyren]

@OP: I think Bloodlines might be able to help you as far as getting free casting.


*grabs popcorn*

*glances up and sighs*
Got any left?

[HouseRules]

So the concept of Aging and the concept of Advancement by Age Categories are not the same.


@OP: I think Bloodlines might be able to help you as far as getting free casting.

Is it clear that Bloodline levels only improve the class level of classes you have before you take that particular bloodline level or does it retcon to later levels and classes?

Of course, it depends on which rule you go with. Bloodlines are Class Levels but not Character Levels (aka Hit Dice). Are Bloodlines Levels also Effective Character Level.

Bloodline are not Static Level Adjustment, but are they Dynamic Level Adjustment?

[ColorBlindNinja]

*glances up and sighs*
Got any left?

I literally just popped an entire bag full, but I ate it all. :smallfrown:

[Psyren]

Is it clear that Bloodline levels only improve the class level of classes you have before you take that particular bloodline level or does it retcon to later levels and classes?

I genuinely don't know, I've never used them or had need to. They're quite cheesy. But given that the OP is interested in "max power," I've always seen them come up in high-level optimization threads.

[Kalkra]

Some claim that you can get double advancement for a Sha'ir with an arcane/divine theurge, because it's both an arcane and divine spellcaster. Ten levels of Rainbow Servant could do the same thing, I think. On the topic of dragon cheese, some claim the divine conversion PrCs boost all of your divine spellcasting classes. Mind Mage is an arcane/psionic theurge that doesn't have the greatest progression, but it can give you immensely high caster levels, in addition to some of its own cheese. Shadowcraft Mages can do things with Heighten Spell and spell slot cheese that lets them sorta fake having higher level spells.

[Doctor Awkward]

It means this.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/467192850862571522/532993682903793664/unknown.png

Chapter 3 of Draconomicon goes into more detail about what advancing by age means in the rules.

Exactly.

You also need one of these:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/141199778070528001/533036735051857941/Dragons_by_Age.jpg

A clearly delineated table indicating exactly what you get by advancing through age categories.

True dragons never leave home without one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

They do. But they don't advance through them.Then how do they age as they travel forward through time? Do they do it backwards or something?

[Doctor Awkward]

Then how do they age as they travel forward through time? Do they do it backwards or something?

Lacking any pertinent rules text that speaks to the details, I would imagine they age like most other biological creatures do. Cells stop dividing (in humans, this happens after about 50 divisions), and accumulated damage over many decades of self-repair leads to breakdowns in certain biological functions.

The specific causes of aging aren't actually known in real life either, so such details are most certainly beyond the scope of the rules text.

[HouseRules]

Lacking any pertinent rules text that speaks to the details, I would imagine they age like most other biological creatures do. Cells stop dividing (in humans, this happens after about 50 divisions), and accumulated damage over many decades of self-repair leads to breakdowns in certain biological functions.

The specific causes of aging aren't actually known in real life either, so such details are most certainly beyond the scope of the rules text.

Actually, cells divide more than 50 times. Only sample cells extracted from people are limited to 50 division. 50 cell division is 22 days (bone marrow at least). We don't have people die 3 months before they are even born.

[Menzath]

There's a (bad) argument to be made that Alternate Source Spell and Southern Magician allow you to use arcane/divine PrCs to advance two arcane or two divine classes. No one will ever allow you to do this and IIRC it's a pretty deliberately confused reading of the text, but people have advocated for it in the past.


But those feats do let you qualify for geomancer, which could qualify you(as long as it doesn't require a caster level you don't have, only spells of X. Level) for arcane/divine advancement classes as a solo class.

The feat signature spell on a wizard sort of qualifies them as being able to spontaneously cast spell(s).
And arcane preparation for spontaneous casters.

2 or 3 levels of geomancer could qualify for almost every dual casting class, minus being able to turn undead.

If you want dual 9's take a level of prestige bard >> sublime chord at 10, followed by ultimate magus, you make up the 1 lost caster level very easily with dual class advancement, so only a temporary loss for one level or so.

[RaiKirah]

I'm not sure we ever came to a consensus on this, but in the second Gamewarper's competition I used Shaper of Form to change to an actual True Dragon from a Dragonwrought Kobold. This required the use of 2 epic feats (Extended Lifespan) via flaws to be old enough to correspond to a True Dragon age category without a Level Adjustment (Dragons qualify for Epic Feats without mention of being True Dragons, p66 DrC if I recall correctly). This arguably lets you become an Adult (Young Adult?, can't remember where the LA: - starts) True Dragon without the RHD, at which point you get effective Sorcerer levels for being a dragon, and can take the Loredrake Archetype for more free levels. This 100% falls under RAWyery shenanigans, and as I mentioned I'm unsure if we decided it actually works. But, if you're already going down the TO route can't hurt to see if you can talk your group into it.

[DarkSoul]

Rather than going for dual casting prestige classes, Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3+. It doesn't get much better.