Homebrew: giving Vengeance Paladin an actual Aura feature on level 7.

[Benny89]

This my homebrew that I would like to test out myself at my table but I want to share an idea. We know that level 7 feature of Vengeance Pally is not only weak compare to other Oaths 7 level features that give some nice additions to Auras (like immunity to Charm, Resistance to Spell, Reducing Movement, adding bonus to attack rolls etc.).

Sadly Vengeance Pally gets only an extra movement after OA, which is only semi-good if you take PAM or PAM + Sentinel. Then with also Haste it can have some usage but it's still imo:

1. Weak
2. Selfish ability while even Oathbreaker have aura that help his "evil" allies.
3. Aura improvements really suit Paladins at level 7
4. Total garbage on non PAM builds.

So to stick to the theme of Vengeance Paladin: mobility, chasing, speed, getting his prey I thought about:

Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, you and friendly creatures within 10 feet of you can't be paralyzed or restrained. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet.

or

Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, your and friendly creatures movement is unaffected by difficult terrain, and spells and magical effects can't reduce its speed or cause it to be restrained. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet. - we remove here immunity for paralyzed, which is stronger effect than restraited but we add the no speed reduction.

This would make Vengeance Paladin a more scary foe when it comes to chasing and getting his target while also giving an Aura that is strong and different than other auras.

I will see in actual gameplay how it works but what do you think?

[CTurbo]

I agree that the Vengeance has by far the worst level 7 feature of all Paladins but the Paladin class is already too strong to get any power bumps, and the Vengeance class possibly has the strongest spells of the Oaths.

[Ding]

Similar feelings to CTurbo above me.

I'm currently a level 9 Vengeance paladin (just got 3rd level spells :smallbiggrin:) and agree that the existing level 7 feature is very underwhelming. I've used it like three times. But Vengeance paladin overall is fairly strong, so I think if you want to give it a pretty significant boost in power at level 7, you'd probably have to take away some power elsewhere if you wanted to keep it balanced. Paladin really doesn't need an overall power buff.

[Benny89]

Similar feelings to CTurbo above me.

I'm currently a level 9 Vengeance paladin (just got 3rd level spells :smallbiggrin:) and agree that the existing level 7 feature is very underwhelming. I've used it like three times. But Vengeance paladin overall is fairly strong, so I think if you want to give it a pretty significant boost in power at level 7, you'd probably have to take away some power elsewhere if you wanted to keep it balanced. Paladin really doesn't need an overall power buff.

It's more of a flavour change than power buff. Also I think all Oaths (apart from Oathbreaker) should be consistent with their 7th level feature. They at least could give him a passive that increase his movement speed by 10. Would at least benefit all builds, not only PAM or Sentinel ones.

[Zanthy1]

I agree that the feature is bleh and could use some sprucing up, though I also agree with the other posts that the spell lists and other features make paladins and vengeance in particular quite powerful. So I propose an aura that is a little less powerful than the ones you suggested:

Relentless Avenger: You and allies within 10ft (increases to 30ft at level 18) have an increased walking speed of +5 feet.

Though now that I think about that, your idea about difficult terrain is actually pretty solid, and I may even like that better than my idea.

[Benny89]

I agree that the feature is bleh and could use some sprucing up, though I also agree with the other posts that the spell lists and other features make paladins and vengeance in particular quite powerful. So I propose an aura that is a little less powerful than the ones you suggested:

Relentless Avenger: You and allies within 10ft (increases to 30ft at level 18) have an increased walking speed of +5 feet.

Though now that I think about that, your idea about difficult terrain is actually pretty solid, and I may even like that better than my idea.

I was thinking about AURA that gives movement bonus but the problem with it is- it has max 30 feet range on 18 level so even +20 movement speed for allies doesn't give anything as they would have to move all the time within 30 feet AURA for that movement to give anything. The moment the step out of AURA- there is no more movement speed bonus. So there is that. I want something that is more consistent as allies are in range of your AURA. Hence why I thought that allies can't be restrained is a good option as it could also be used as walking to the restrained ally to get him into the Aura so he can move again.

[BobZan]

If you tweak its other powers, it's ok

[CTurbo]

I could see maybe something like you and any friendly creature in a 10ft(later 30ft) radius can ignore difficult terrain. That way it's consistent with the other Oath's auras.

[Benny89]

I could see maybe something like you and any friendly creature in a 10ft(later 30ft) radius can ignore difficult terrain. That way it's consistent with the other Oath's auras.

It's good feature but I don't think it's consistent with Ancients, Devotion, Oathbreaker or Conquest auras.

I would like little more "noticable" benefit.

So maybe like that:

Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, your and friendly creatures movement is unaffected by difficult terrain and can't be restrained. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet. - you are still vurneable to paralyze, speed reduction feats/spells like Sentinel etc. but you can't be restrained and you can chase target over difficult terrain.

I this would be more consistent with other auras and also give more visible benefit to alles.

[BobZan]

That's too much. Can't be restrained? Paladins are already very strong for that kind of buff

[Benny89]

That's too much. Can't be restrained? Paladins are already very strong for that kind of buff

I don't think it's too much. Other Oaths get immunity to Charm, resistance to all spell damage, reducing movement speed to 0 of frightened foes to perma prone them, absorbing damage allies take, getting bonus to attack rolls.

Can't be restrained is weaker than some of above and in line with others and in my opinion fits the theme of vengeance paladin which is mobility to chase down their foes and they can't be stopped, which makes them more scary hunters.

Paladins are already very strong, but I look specifically at adding Aura feature, not balancing Paladin class as a whole. And yes, I agree that they are imo strongest overall class in 5e.

[CTurbo]

It's good feature but I don't think it's consistent with Ancients, Devotion, Oathbreaker or Conquest auras.

I would like little more "noticable" benefit.

So maybe like that:

Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, your and friendly creatures movement is unaffected by difficult terrain and can't be restrained. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet. - you are still vurneable to paralyze, speed reduction feats/spells like Sentinel etc. but you can't be restrained and you can chase target over difficult terrain.

I this would be more consistent with other auras and also give more visible benefit to alles.


I'm ok with it being slightly weaker than the others' oaths. It probably has the strongest spells so there is some trade offs. My only problem with it is it's not actually an aura.

[Damon_Tor]

How about:


Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, when a hostile creature within 10 feet of you moves at least 5 feet without using the disengage action, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed and make a melee weapon attack against that creature. You must end this move closer to that creature. At 18th level, the range of this ability increases to 30 feet.

There we go: it's still effectively the same ability, just far more functional, and in aura format.

[Zanthy1]

It's good feature but I don't think it's consistent with Ancients, Devotion, Oathbreaker or Conquest auras.

I would like little more "noticable" benefit.

So maybe like that:

Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, your and friendly creatures movement is unaffected by difficult terrain and can't be restrained. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet. - you are still vurneable to paralyze, speed reduction feats/spells like Sentinel etc. but you can't be restrained and you can chase target over difficult terrain.

I this would be more consistent with other auras and also give more visible benefit to alles.

What about instead of can't be restrained they cannot be stunned? Its similar but since stunned doesn't come up at frequently it doesn't make it too much more powerful. (being stunned is much worse than being retrained)

[Benny89]

How about:


Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, when a hostile creature within 10 feet of you moves at least 5 feet without using the disengage action, you can use your reaction to move up to your speed and make a melee weapon attack against that creature. You must end this move closer to that creature. At 18th level, the range of this ability increases to 30 feet.

There we go: it's still effectively the same ability, just far more functional, and in aura format.

It's just Polearm Master feat.

[Benny89]

What about instead of can't be restrained they cannot be stunned? Its similar but since stunned doesn't come up at frequently it doesn't make it too much more powerful. (being stunned is much worse than being retrained)

stunned could work too. Though stunned is not a frequent as restrained, it's also much worse condition than restrained. I still think restrained immunity is less powerful than stunned one but both could work, yes.

[MadBear]

It's your game, so do as you please, but I think the vengeance paladin is already too good to use another buff.

[Damon_Tor]

It's just Polearm Master feat.


It works with any weapon
It does not require them to enter or exit your reach
It allows you to move as a part of the reaction



It's substantially more useful.

[Benny89]

It works with any weapon
It does not require them to enter or exit your reach
It allows you to move as a part of the reaction



It's substantially more useful.

Yes, but it's nothing new or unique. It's just Polearm Master mixed with RAW Relentless Avenger, which also allows move as part of reaction when making OA. So it's just the same feature pretty much.

But thank you for suggestion.

[Kadesh]

'It' s just Polearm master', like a souped up version of that for free isn't good enough.

[Benny89]

'It' s just Polearm master', like a souped up version of that for free isn't good enough.

Not saying it's not good per se, I am saying it's not unique at all. Do you know a feat that gives immunity to Charm, resistance to spell damage etc.? That what makes those 7th level Aura features from other Oaths unique- they give unique benefit you can't get otherwise from feats. Only maybe from magic items or other classes passives.

So what I am looking for is unique Aura feature for Vengeance Paladin at level 7 too.

Improved Polearm Master is not that.

[Guy Lombard-O]

It's more of a flavour change than power buff. Also I think all Oaths (apart from Oathbreaker) should be consistent with their 7th level feature. They at least could give him a passive that increase his movement speed by 10. Would at least benefit all builds, not only PAM or Sentinel ones.

I really don't think they need to be consistent. Different subclasses have their best features at different levels. The Ancients paladin, for instance, get a powerful level 7 aura, but their channel divinity is barely even a ribbon in comparison to Vengeance and Conquest. Were you planning to level off all the features of all the subclasses at all levels? Or just bump up the weak level 7 aura of the (already arguably best) subclass?

Point being, I think they're already somewhat balanced overall (not well, but hey), but clearly not at each level. Some subclasses "win" at certain levels, but lose at others. Some suck at one level, but catch up later on.

[Bubzors]

Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, your and friendly creatures movement is unaffected by difficult terrain and can't be restrained. At 18th level, the range of this aura increases to 30 feet. - you are still vurneable to paralyze, speed reduction feats/spells like Sentinel etc. but you can't be restrained and you can chase target over difficult terrain. .

The protection from restrained is a bit strong. The effect of a level 4 spell constantly on for all allies close enough? I like the idea of ignoring difficult terrain or something to allow them to close distance, but having them ignored any type of grapple or restraint is too much

[Kadesh]

Not saying it's not good per se, I am saying it's not unique at all. Do you know a feat that gives immunity to Charm, resistance to spell damage etc.? That what makes those 7th level Aura features from other Oaths unique- they give unique benefit you can't get otherwise from feats. Only maybe from magic items or other classes passives.

So what I am looking for is unique Aura feature for Vengeance Paladin at level 7 too.

Improved Polearm Master is not that.

You know what's unique about getting the Improved Polearm Master feat at 7th level? Not having to spend your 8th level ASI on standard Polearm Master.

[Benny89]

You know what's unique about getting the Improved Polearm Master feat at 7th level? Not having to spend your 8th level ASI on standard Polearm Master.

You miss my point or you just ignore it. Its just a copy of feat. Oath of ancient resistance to all spell damage is not. That's what I am looking for.


The protection from restrained is a bit strong. The effect of a level 4 spell constantly on for all allies close enough? I like the idea of ignoring difficult terrain or something to allow them to close distance, but having them ignored any type of grapple or restraint is too much

I agree it's strong, but not stronger than Oathbreaker, Ancients, Conquest or Devotion auras.

How is ignoring restraint stronger than ignoring half the damage of spells or ignoring totally charm effects?

[Damon_Tor]

Not saying it's not good per se, I am saying it's not unique at all. Do you know a feat that gives immunity to Charm, resistance to spell damage etc.? That what makes those 7th level Aura features from other Oaths unique- they give unique benefit you can't get otherwise from feats. Only maybe from magic items or other classes passives.

So what I am looking for is unique Aura feature for Vengeance Paladin at level 7 too.

Improved Polearm Master is not that.

Alright, I see what you're saying. But I don't think a protective aura is in keeping with the theme. A paladin of vengeance should punish, not protect.

So how about:


Relentless Avenger: Starting at 7th level, when a hostile creature within 10 feet of you casts a spell targeting you or an ally, as a reaction you can cause that creature to become a target of the spell. At 18th level, the range of this ability increases to 30 feet.