AL Thor in Dwarf form. Help please!

[bkcrosson]

First and foremost thanks for your interest and help (if given)!

Alot of the D&D 5e rules are as clear as mud (especially Adventures League). (Especially for an old school player like myself).

Concept: Flying Dwarf/ tank with healing AND a Dwarven Thrower...

"Flying Boots" have to be attuned therefore = sux!

Flying unless you have DM perks is limited to Dragon Sorcerers 14th and Boots of Flying (to my knowledge - new to 5e and AL).

Someone turned me on to Tempest Cleric over War Cleric for Heavy Armor Prof (hence the reason lightning was chosen - not for Thor).

Most people say go mountain Dwarf over the Hill Dwarf but Hill essentially gets 2 Con points for that 1 life per level and that +1 Wisdom is huge.

Opening Attributes
Str: 14
Dex: 10
Con: 15
Int: 8
Wis: 13
Chr: 15

Clerics need to be able to hit something at first level and 14 is a good starting point.
Can't have Dex negatives for initiative and Dex Saves for a tank are crucial.
Con is the most important stat for this build.
Int is for skills and I will cover that in skill packages.
Wisdom is minimum for Clerics because this build does NOT need to overcome resistance most time.
Charisma is where spells need to get over resistance also this is useful for some other things.

Skills
Background: Custom; "Dwarven Equalizer" (mafia) Investigate Perception
Class skills: History Religion

(At Level 20)
Acrobatics +0 DEX (0) -
Animal Handling +2 WIS (2) -
Arcana -1 INT (-1) -
Athletics +2 STR (2) -
Deception +3 CHA (3) -
History +5 INT (-1) +6
Insight +2 WIS (2) -
Intimidation +3 CHA (3) -
Investigation +5 INT (-1) +6
Medicine +2 WIS (2) -
Nature -1 INT (-1) -
Perception +8 WIS (2) +6
Performance +3 CHA (3) -
Persuasion +3 CHA (3) -
Religion +5 INT (-1) +6
Sleight of Hand +0 DEX (0) -
Stealth +0 DEX (0) -
Survival +2 WIS (2) -
Passive Perception: 18

Level Build Out:
1: Tempest Cleric
2-17: Bronze Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer (that take you thru the 4th feat and wings)
18-20: Tempest Cleric (for the additional feat and some spells).
(maybe need some help on order progression suggestions are always appreciated - maybe a lvl of fighter???)

Feats:
Dwarven Fortitude (Dodge = heal, Periphat of Wound Closure = double healing + cast shield of faith and reaction shield)
Shield Master (for Dex saves)
War Caster (unwanted but needed)
Elemental Adept (Lightning) (for the resistance beat -also unwanted)
+1 Wis +1 Chr
(Definitely need suggestions - work arounds)!!!

Spells:
Cleric spells memorized (CL 4th)
Spell Save DC 16 Spell Attack +8
2nd—find traps , gust of wind , shatter, spiritual weapon
1st—bless, cure wounds , fog cloud, guiding bolt , shield of
faith, thunderwave
Cantrips—guidance, light, resistance, word of radiance

Sorcerer spells known (CL 16th)
Spell Save DC 17 Spell Attack +9
7th—plane shift
6th—chain lightning, sunbeam
4th—stoneskin, storm sphere
3rd—haste, lightning bolt , thunder step
2nd—blur, knock
1st—comprehend languages, magic missile, shield,
witch bolt
Cantrips—blade ward, booming blade , light, mage
hand, shocking grasp , thunderclap

(note Spiritual Weapon, Shield of Faith are bonus actions and combo really well off the dodge action along with shield reaction).

With +3 Plate
A Dwarven Thrower
A periphat of Wound Closure
and Belt of Giant Strength

he is a titan (I think)??? Final Stats:

AC 26
Initiative +0
Speed 25 ft
HP:183 (16d6+4d8 +1lvl hill, +1 sorcerer for Dragonic Bloodlines averaged)
Dwarven Thrower
Ranged: +11, 1d8+5 bludgeoning (base without belt of giant strength)
plus 1d8/2d8 at range


Sry it is lengthy thanks for reading if you made it this far: input is appreciated!

[CTurbo]

Tempest Clerics can fly at level 17. I'd stick full class probably.


Your build idea is sound, but doesn't really come online until late. How is it going to play at lower and mid levels?

[CheddarChampion]

So a level 17 tempest cleric can fly when in the open air (not underground or indoors). This happens to be the majority of the time when flying is useful. That would make for a less MAD build for sure.
I'd do 14/10/15/10/16/10 (hill dwarf) for a straight class, picking up magic initiate for booming blade (great for melee clerics), resilient (constitution), and maxing wisdom.
Towards the end, boost strength one last time or pick up warcaster to cast booming blade as an opportunity attack. Your AL +1 book would be Xanathar's guide.

Another alternative is a mountain dwarf sorcadin. Smiting sure seems like a very 'Thor' thing to do. A few levels of paladin followed by sorcerer all the way.
I suggest Paladin 6 / Dragon sorcerer 14 or Paladin 2 / Storm sorcerer 18 (from Xanathar's guide again). 16/10/16/10/10/14 for stats.
Both progressions get you flight, but Storm sorcerer gets you immunity to thunder and lightning, you can share your flight with others, and it's not wing-based, which may be favorable at times.
The only feat you really need for this one is warcaster. Resilient would be overkill, especially if you get that 6th level of paladin.

In any case, unless you're playing at very high levels, you can only really expect to fly by casting it as the spell. In this case you'll want a high chance at succeeding on concentration saves, or you might fall and be in for up to 20d6 of trouble. :smalltongue:

[BarneyBent]

An entirely different approach would be Fighter (Eldritch Knight)/Wizard. Depending how magic or martial you want to be, you can take more Fighter or Wizard levels. But you get Fly as a spell (level 5 Wizard, level 13 EK), and Eldritch Knight allows you to bond two weapons that if on the same plane of existence you can always summon to your hand with a bonus action (sound familiar?).

Wizard has plenty of flavourful options with spells and schools. War Magic is excellent for a 2 level dip, but in AL you won’t be able to take the two best cantrips on an EK, which are Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade. Abjuration School is also amazing.

A very Thor build would be Fighter (EK) 12/Wizard (Abjuration) 8, using Booming Blade and a bonus action attack from Fighter 7.

Alternatively, Paladin 2/Storm Sorcerer 18 is probably the simplest build. Fly around smiting people. Fluff the radiant damage as being a sort of divine, storm-like damage (mechanically no different).

[ThrowingDummy]

Just to add another reason to dip paladin, thunderous smite. A mighty boom of thunder that rings out 300ft as your hammer strikes and knocks someone prone 10ft away. Fluff the thunder as coming from a bolt of lightning from the heavens at the point of impact. Seems tailor made for a Thor character.

[bkcrosson]

Thank you thank you thank you. All great suggestions/ ideas but, I looked at most of those before making this build (I'm not in a concept but design phase - need help critiquing the final product and finite details). It is a simple kool coincidence the concept is a Thor like build and not the actual goal. This concept is pretty diverse; he can find traps, cast healing and damaging spells at high level and can tank. He isn't going to pick pockets or open locks except for MAYBE a knock spell (which used to open magical locks and now seems as though it does not :( ).

The Eldritch Knight)/Wizard/ rogue (assassin) is a completely different build I think but a very valid one with I think an elf and throwing dagger or the like...

I looked at the Tempest cleric to LVL 18 not an option for "limited" flying vs 14... Also in 5e the healing is done with low level spells. 14 levels left it far more versatile and sooner. Also, flying underground may be hoovering an inch off the ground and floating over holes and traps in a dungeon.

I looked hard at the paladin
The health and armor are nice but other ways to get there.
Divine Sense, Lay on Hands (low level), Spell casting, Divine Smite, Sacred Oath, extra attack (throwing a Dwarven Thrower) seem useless.

Also page 165 Player's Handbook for spells is a MAJOR incentive to cast spells at higher slots especially chain lightning at 9th... I was reading articles online and changed metamagic feats to twinned Heightened and Quickened.

Sorcerer Spells changed to these:
Sorcerer spells known (CL 16th)
Spell Save DC 17 Spell Attack +9
8th—dominate monster
7th—whirlwind
6th—chain lightning
4th—stoneskin
3rd—counterspell, haste, lightning bolt , thunder step
2nd—dragon’s breath
1st—chromatic orb , comprehend languages, magic
missile, shield, witch bolt
Cantrips—blade ward, booming blade , light, mage
hand, shocking grasp , thunderclap

[bkcrosson]

Just to add another reason to dip paladin, thunderous smite. A mighty boom of thunder that rings out 300ft as your hammer strikes and knocks someone prone 10ft away. Fluff the thunder as coming from a bolt of lightning from the heavens at the point of impact. Seems tailor made for a Thor character.

Which book is that in? The original build was 3.5 and Pathfinder and I used shield bash to knock opponents into the ground flying down on them then standing on top and smashing them all while casting lightning - that isn't an option in 5e (sadly).

[bkcrosson]

Technically speaking the build needs to be 3 levels Cleric (2nd level spells) and 14 sorcerer (flying)... Problem is it need the feats/ ability score bumps... If there were a way around that I have 3 flex levels but, my lack of reading the books I don't know if there is a work around. Maybe a feat I have is more worthless than I think it is verse taking a level at lets say bard or monk???

[ThrowingDummy]

Which book is that in? The original build was 3.5 and Pathfinder and I used shield bash to knock opponents into the ground flying down on them then standing on top and smashing them all while casting lightning - that isn't an option in 5e (sadly).

PHB pg282 in the spell list

Thunderous Smite
1st level evocation

The first time you hit with a melee weapon attack during this spell's duration, your weapon rings with thunder that is audible 300 feet of you, and the attack deals an extra 2D6 thunder damage to the target. Additionally, if the target is a creature, it must succeed on a strength saving throw or be pushed 10 feet away from you and knocked prone.

It's one of the paladin smite spells. Useful maybe to get some space from an attacker up close. Followed up with a range attack with the dwarven thrower? Plus prone enemies are a gift to your melee party members.

[bkcrosson]

That would be an amazing spell.... but 2 levels paladin :'(....

[bkcrosson]

Tempest Clerics can fly at level 17. I'd stick full class probably.


Your build idea is sound, but doesn't really come online until late. How is it going to play at lower and mid levels?

I played tier 1 yesterday on his final; "I can change him day" and he played great. As good a healer as our level 2 cleric, harder to hit than our 3rd level fighter and with more hit points (but that is just I had better armor and can cast shield)... nothing touched me at all and at one point I was surrounded by 5 undead.

I am worried about how good he is at level 20 because I haven't played a level 20 character in 5e and I am certain I haven't done enough research yet! Hoping some people here can tell me where to look. I've been playing, Dming, and building custom characters for 30 years just not 5E.

[CTurbo]

Dude the Tempest Cleric is SO much more than a heal bot. I've played 4 different Tempests and healing has always been way down on the priority list. It's such a strong class. It really can do just about everything well. Just grab Magic Initiate for Booming Blade and you're set.

[bkcrosson]

Dude the Tempest Cleric is SO much more than a heal bot. I've played 4 different Tempests and healing has always been way down on the priority list. It's such a strong class. It really can do just about everything well. Just grab Magic Initiate for Booming Blade and you're set.

Build the best level 15 Tempest Cleric you can and drop it here. I'll give you the build out for this at 15 and 9 times out of 10 I will bet this build in gladiator wins - hard to beat armor class, good hit points, healing, offensive and defensive magic and flying! I'm 90% sure my mind will not change how the classes for this line just their features... You are not the first to suggest just Tempest Cleric but you also wouldn't be the first to find that makes an inferior build to this...

[Theodoric]

The Tempest Cleric really shines in taking out large groups of weaker enemies, while also being a decent melee combatant on top of all the usual Cleric abilities. One of my players has a Tempest Cleric who at low levels cleared entire rooms by himself. Really don't see why you need Sorcerer on top of that when a pure Tempest build does basically the same thing.

I mean, Tempest Clerics even get Destructive Wave at level 9, which is a really cool, powerful, very Thor-like spell Paladins normally only get at level 17. Plus, as a Tempest Cleric you get to use Destructive Wrath on it, too.

[CheddarChampion]

I'm 90% sure my mind will not change how the classes for this line just their features... You are not the first to suggest just Tempest Cleric but you also wouldn't be the first to find that makes an inferior build to this...

Alright bkcrosson, did you come here for advice or to gloat about your 'awesome oc build plz do not steal?' It sure doesn't seem like the former, so would you like us to pick apart your 'superior' build?

[bkcrosson]

Alright bkcrosson, did you come here for advice or to gloat about your 'awesome oc build plz do not steal?' It sure doesn't seem like the former, so would you like us to pick apart your 'superior' build?

If you are kind enough to read I clearly came for help. Gloat I'm an old man... The help I've received is: "change your class" which is not the help I'm looking for. Fortunately with age comes wisdom and I am grateful for any thoughts on the matter but most things suggested have already been milled around at the local comic shop where I play.

I've seen dozens of players get into a build realize what they got wrong and have to start over. I'm trying to double check my work not start fresh. So again I'll restate this it's the finite details I need help with not the big picture. Thanks in advance!

[bkcrosson]

The Tempest Cleric really shines in taking out large groups of weaker enemies, while also being a decent melee combatant on top of all the usual Cleric abilities. One of my players has a Tempest Cleric who at low levels cleared entire rooms by himself. Really don't see why you need Sorcerer on top of that when a pure Tempest build does basically the same thing.

I mean, Tempest Clerics even get Destructive Wave at level 9, which is a really cool, powerful, very Thor-like spell Paladins normally only get at level 17. Plus, as a Tempest Cleric you get to use Destructive Wrath on it, too.

It is an amazing class that I haven't explored nearly as much as I'd like but it flies at 18 as opposed to 14 and while clerics have super powerful offensive spells at low level magic and divine together have great buffs and at slightly lower levels the offense magic is better for magic

[Zonugal]

Build the best level 15 Tempest Cleric you can and drop it here. I'll give you the build out for this at 15 and 9 times out of 10 I will bet this build in gladiator wins - hard to beat armor class, good hit points, healing, offensive and defensive magic and flying! I'm 90% sure my mind will not change how the classes for this line just their features... You are not the first to suggest just Tempest Cleric but you also wouldn't be the first to find that makes an inferior build to this...

This is one of the worst ways to compare the effectiveness of builds in D&D.

How often are you fighting another player in a gladiator pit?

If you're going to try to champion your build as a better one, you should highlight all of its positive features in a group setting against enemies (because that is the actual game).

[CheddarChampion]

If you are kind enough to read I clearly came for help. Gloat I'm an old man... The help I've received is: "change your class" which is not the help I'm looking for. Fortunately with age comes wisdom and I am grateful for any thoughts on the matter but most things suggested have already been milled around at the local comic shop where I play.

I've seen dozens of players get into a build realize what they got wrong and have to start over. I'm trying to double check my work not start fresh. So again I'll restate this it's the finite details I need help with not the big picture. Thanks in advance!

Maybe I misinterpreted then.

Some specifics I'd adjust:
Shield master will rarely help you with Dex saves. RAW, fireball targets an area not a creature so shield master won't boost your saves against other spells of the sort. You can still use your reaction to take no damage on a save, but with +0 to Dex saves, YMMV.

Dwarven fortitude doesn't add much when you already have a high AC and can heal yourself with spells.

Finally, your saving throw DC isn't the best with only 16 charisma. I'd take out both of those feats I mentioned and replace them with boosts to charisma. You can adjust your initial stats to suit the change.

[Azgeroth]

instead of draconic sorc, why not storm sorc? https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf

even more in theme with the 'thor' aspect, plus more lightning spells, you still get innate flight, but not untill sorc 18... still, the Tempestuous Magic at 1st level sounds fully on target for the theme.

i would spend your first ASI on combat casting, second on +cha bump, 3rd would be when i take elemental affinity,
your not going to run into many monsters with resistances before then.. having a higher spell DC is going to be more important.

[MikeRoxTheBoat]

As a side note, after reading the title, I'm mildly disappointed that this thread wasn't about making a Dwarvish version of Rand al Thor from the Wheel of Time books. I already had some gishy Dwarven Sorcerer/Hexblade ideas floating around. Might use them myself, now.

[Misterwhisper]

As a side note, after reading the title, I'm mildly disappointed that this thread wasn't about making a Dwarvish version of Rand al Thor from the Wheel of Time books. I already had some gishy Dwarven Sorcerer/Hexblade ideas floating around. Might use them myself, now.

I thought the exact same thing...

[bkcrosson]

Maybe I misinterpreted then.

Some specifics I'd adjust:
Shield master will rarely help you with Dex saves. RAW, fireball targets an area not a creature so shield master won't boost your saves against other spells of the sort. You can still use your reaction to take no damage on a save, but with +0 to Dex saves, YMMV.

Dwarven fortitude doesn't add much when you already have a high AC and can heal yourself with spells.

Finally, your saving throw DC isn't the best with only 16 charisma. I'd take out both of those feats I mentioned and replace them with boosts to charisma. You can adjust your initial stats to suit the change.

Can you help me with to understand the shield master? If it is a +3 shield doesn't that make the dex save +5?

Also Dwarven fortitude is a combo that doesn't require the use of a spell slot. Dodge = heal + add shield of faith and reaction shield make him virtually unhittable. Those are first level spells which take away the slots for those healing spell. It doubles with Peripht of Wound Closure. Is it still not that good? Also it combos with spirtual weapon.

This is the exact kind of help I was asking for thanks in advance! In lieu of the above do you still think the +4 Charisma is better than both?

[GlenSmash!]

As a side note, after reading the title, I'm mildly disappointed that this thread wasn't about making a Dwarvish version of Rand al Thor from the Wheel of Time books. I already had some gishy Dwarven Sorcerer/Hexblade ideas floating around. Might use them myself, now.

Before 5e Hexblades I was deciding between a a Fighter 2-5/X Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer, or Fighter 2/X Warlock with Pact Blade with an insane Lews Therin as refluffed Fiend Patron for a Rand build.

Hexblade certainly makes it easier.

[bkcrosson]

As a side note, after reading the title, I'm mildly disappointed that this thread wasn't about making a Dwarvish version of Rand al Thor from the Wheel of Time books. I already had some gishy Dwarven Sorcerer/Hexblade ideas floating around. Might use them myself, now.

Sry I hadn't read those books are they good? Hope you share the build!

[GlenSmash!]

Sry I hadn't read those books are they good?

It is of course a matter of opinion, but of the 14 books I loved a good 5 or 6 of them, liked a couple more, and was completely bored by the others.

It starts and finishes strong, but some of the middle books left me unsatisfied.

[YeBoi]

If you wanna go thor you could also consider going Storm Sorcery Sorceror. So you can make short bursts of flight

[tieren]

Can you help me with to understand the shield master? If it is a +3 shield doesn't that make the dex save +5?


No shields only boost AC

[bkcrosson]

No shields only boost AC

Are you talking about the same thing I am?

Shield Master
You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:

If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

Also part 1 is a free disengage as I read. Shove and then fly without granting an attack of opportunity. Am I reading this wrong?

[GlenSmash!]

Are you talking about the same thing I am?

Shield Master
You use shields not just for protection but also for offense. You gain the following benefits while you are wielding a shield:

If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect.

Also part 1 is a free disengage as I read. Shove and then fly without granting an attack of opportunity. Am I reading this wrong?

Part 1 works as a free disengage, or for knocking somebody over the edge of a cliff, or knock them prone with a shove. or for any other reason you would want to knock someone down or push them away.

Part 2 lets you add 2 to you're Dex Saving Throw you are the only target of the saving throw, I've never seen a DM add a Magic shields bonus to AC to that.

Part 3 lets you take no damage if you succeed on a Dex Saving Throw where you would normally take half damage, like against a Red Dragons Fire breath.

[CheddarChampion]

Are you talking about the same thing I am?

Shield Master

Snip

If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage

Snip



I mean that shield master helps against spells like sacred flame, which has target creature (you) make a dex save. Fireball, and all big area damage spells, target an area not a creature. Shield master doesn't give a bonus to Dex saves against a fireball, ever. You can, however, use the reaction on a successful save because it has no such wording.

If I designed the game, I'd change the wording so that you could get a bonus to Dex saves once per turn. But in AL, where RAW is king, no Dex save bonus against fireball and the like.

[bkcrosson]

So to be clear without a higher dex save shield master is mostly useless?

[bkcrosson]

Maybe I misinterpreted then.

Some specifics I'd adjust:
Shield master will rarely help you with Dex saves. RAW, fireball targets an area not a creature so shield master won't boost your saves against other spells of the sort. You can still use your reaction to take no damage on a save, but with +0 to Dex saves, YMMV.

Dwarven fortitude doesn't add much when you already have a high AC and can heal yourself with spells.

Finally, your saving throw DC isn't the best with only 16 charisma. I'd take out both of those feats I mentioned and replace them with boosts to charisma. You can adjust your initial stats to suit the change.

On another forum someone is suggesting I cut "Elemental Adept". Here is their quote; "Well there are 35 creatures in the MM with resistance to Lighting damage an 10 that are immune to it. If you were going for Fire or Cold based damage it would be more necessary. For Lightning I would prioritize higher attack rolls and spell save dc over it."

Can someone suggest what attribute bumps I take over; "Elemental Adept", "Shield Master", and "Dwarven Fortitude" and perhaps a sequence that I take those feat/ attribute bonuses in?

[Misterwhisper]

On another forum someone is suggesting I cut "Elemental Adept". Here is their quote; "Well there are 35 creatures in the MM with resistance to Lighting damage an 10 that are immune to it. If you were going for Fire or Cold based damage it would be more necessary. For Lightning I would prioritize higher attack rolls and spell save dc over it."

Can someone suggest what attribute bumps I take over; "Elemental Adept", "Shield Master", and "Dwarven Fortitude" and perhaps a sequence that I take those feat/ attribute bonuses in?

Step 1: take warcaster or resilient con to help with concentration. Warcaster if even stat, resilient if odd.

Step 2: get wisdom to 20.

There is no step 3 because most games will never make it to level 16

Actually step 1 should be:

Are you an armored shield and hammer user that casts spells on the side or a lightning caster with good armor and a shield?

If melee with casting on the side boost str instead.